Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

[quote=Drift Reality;422476]Going out and getting a Chad Johnson isn't suddenly the magic solution to all our systemic problems - especially when in my opinion, if we want to point to a weakness, I would point to our offensive line last year after the key injuries.[/quote]This is the best point in the thread. If we go out and acquire Johnson, we improve just a tiny, tiny bit--but the oppertunity costs far outweigh any potential benefit.

If Johnson has a career year here, we improve maybe a whole win in the standings over last year, but 1) its a bad idea to make a trade assuming a guy will be even better than he's proven (**Lloyd**), and 2) we could improve more investing picks and money elsewhere.

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

[QUOTE=Redskin Warrior;422660]I do think we are 90% there I think a D-Lineman & WR are our weak points on this team. We lost several games by a TD or less. TB, GB, DAL, NYG, PHI that's five games we lost by and TD or less if you look at the Giants they aren't that much better than us other than the D-Line & QB. I disagree I don't think it's all about money with Chad true he is 30 but he wants to win and he feels the Bengals don't accept him for who he is that's a passionate player that's an entertainer what is wrong with that?[/QUOTE]

I think we had a good, solid team last year. I think losing our coaching structure sets us back a good year because we are talking about the offensive players learning an entirely new system, and although Blatche may not change everything around the verdict is out on whether he is going to field a defense that plays at the same caliber as Williams.

I wouldn't say we are rebuilding but at the same time, this is not continuity.

Therefore, I feel like the notion that we are a few pieces away from contending for a Super Bowl, although admirable, is overly optimistic.

Here is the reality for us: We are a team with some solid veteran talent, some young talent (although I think we have some serious injury concerns with our younger talent), and some over-achieving younger players.

When our core of veterans really starts getting over the hill however, what is left?

That is why my perspective is, and always has been, lets use the draft and build our core instead of going and cherry picking stars that are going to sell tickets.

call me crazy

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

[quote=GTripp0012;422692]This is the best point in the thread. If we go out and acquire Johnson, we improve just a tiny, tiny bit--but the oppertunity costs far outweigh any potential benefit.

If Johnson has a career year here, we improve maybe a whole win in the standings over last year, but 1) its a bad idea to make a trade assuming a guy will be even better than he's proven (**Lloyd**), and 2) we could improve more investing picks and money elsewhere.[/quote]

got any proof of that?

we've got good starters on OL, and depth takes time to improve, so new linemen aren't going to come in and make an immediate impact (until at least 6 games in when they learn how the other guys play), but a WR could immediately. TO gave philly and dallas a LOT more than a 1 win advantage, and so did randy moss (both in minn and NE... oak didn't have a QB that could take advantage of him).

the only two spots where you could get a bigger immediate impact would be DE (which is still rare for a strong 1st year contribution) or getting phillips at safety.

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

[quote=That Guy;422915]got any proof of that?

we've got good starters on OL, and depth takes time to improve, so new linemen aren't going to come in and make an immediate impact (until at least 6 games in when they learn how the other guys play), but a WR could immediately. TO gave philly and dallas a LOT more than a 1 win advantage, and so did randy moss (both in minn and NE... oak didn't have a QB that could take advantage of him).

the only two spots where you could get a bigger immediate impact would be DE (which is still rare for a strong 1st year contribution) or getting phillips at safety.[/quote]R. Moss was valued (purely on catch and value on passes thrown in his direction) at [URL="http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr.php"]51 DPAR[/URL] this season. That is roughly a one win advantage (over the replacement level ish Reche Caldwell), or so my research on the topic has shown. This of course, doesn't account for how defenses alter their play to account for the threat that Moss brings, but you can [I]only give a guy so much credit on plays he doesn't get the ball.[/I] Let's not act like Welker wasn't just as big a part of the Pats success as Moss was.

Johnson's DPAR was valued at 34, or roughly 1/2 to 2/3 of a win. But if he came here, he would not be replacing Reche Caldwell. He would be replacing Santana Moss, who is on the basis of the career, a lot stronger than Caldwell. Johnson is obviously an upgrade, but not more than maybe a 3rd of a win.

Johnson isn't Owens, and he isn't Moss. He's very, very good. But he would have a reasonably negligible effect on our team because it's not like we don't already have a competent passing game. It would just get slightly better.

I'm not sure drafting a guard with a pick that we would have traded for Johnson improves our team a whole lot in the short run, but if you think about where we will be a year or two years from now with no talent in the interior vs. a potential solid starter or even probowler, it makes little sense to argue that the possibility of an extra win this year is a good move when it costs us a few wins in the future.

None of that even begins to address the financial applications which make a CJ acquisition silly at best, and crippling at worst (depending on how many added restructurings we do to fit him in).

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he's not replacing moss. he's replacing el... or he's displacing moss who's displacing el, who's displacing caldwell. I agree the money won't be great, but he'll make life easier on the entire offense, not just his spot.

and while welker helped the patriots quite a bit, it was a lot easier for him to do so with brady, moss, watson, faulk, stallworth, etc out there leaving him with less attention.

and its impossible to judge a draft pick vs a proven commidity, but i have noticed everyone seems to vastly overvalue the potential of draft picks versus the reality of draft results. I do agree our OL is very near the end of its useful life as is, and that something needs to be done about it.

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

[quote=That Guy;423000]he's not replacing moss. he's replacing el... or he's displacing moss who's displacing el, who's displacing caldwell. I agree the money won't be great, but he'll make life easier on the entire offense, not just his spot.

and while welker helped the patriots quite a bit, it was a lot easier for him to do so with brady, moss, watson, faulk, stallworth, etc out there leaving him with less attention.

and its impossible to judge a draft pick vs a proven commidity, but i have noticed everyone seems to vastly overvalue the potential of draft picks versus the reality of draft results. I do agree our OL is very near the end of its useful life as is, and that something needs to be done about it.[/quote]Well, we just extended Randle El, so I don't think he's on the ropes or anything. Based on last year's production, Randle El is the better of the two, by a lot, so my point only gets stronger if that's the case.

Welker also had a ridiculous 77% catch rate, and that can't be attributed to anyone besides him and his QB. Welker and Moss made each other's jobs easier as is the case on most NFL teams with receiving cores. That's generally why I like to grade out the receivers as a group as opposed to individual.

The idea, of course, would be to hit on the draft pick, or to spend it at a different position. If we spend it on either line, or at the CB position, it's hard for me to see a situation that wouldn't help our team more than CJ in the long run. You always have the total bust factor, but huge busts can generally be identified. You have the Gallery-type slip through the cracks every few years, but when a team makes a bad pick--usually everyone scratches their head right off the bat.

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[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3245503]ESPN - Lewis says it again: Chad Johnson isn't going anywhere - NFL[/url]

Marvin Lewis is saving Snyder from himself. Chad Johnson is staying in Cincinnati.

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[quote=Oakland Red;423012][URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3245503"]ESPN - Lewis says it again: Chad Johnson isn't going anywhere - NFL[/URL]

Marvin Lewis is saving Snyder from himself. Chad Johnson is staying in Cincinnati.[/quote]

All this stuff is a bunch of rumors being started. Chad J. probably isn't going anywhere. He's going to want a lot of $ and the Bengals are going to want a lot of compensation. Who is going to give up both? I doubt even Snyder would give up the draft picks.

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[QUOTE=skinsfan69;423036]All this stuff is a bunch of rumors being started. Chad J. probably isn't going anywhere. He's going to want a lot of $ and the Bengals are going to want a lot of compensation. Who is going to give up both? I doubt even Snyder would give up the draft picks.[/QUOTE]

hahah you doubt snyder would give up the draft picks??!!? are you nuts? danny will give up anyone and anything for big name players.

nevertheless, i would love to have chad and want him bad!

=]

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Until someone inside the Bengals organization contact the Redskins about a trade for CJ, any further discussion relevant to a trade for him is a moot point.

Vinny Cerrato said last night he was suprised when the story about a trade for CJ surfaced in the Wash Post last week. On Redskins Radio just last night, Larry Michael asked Vinny about the rumor related to CJ, he said that until the Redskins are contacted by the Bengals, any contact talk concerning CJ is considered tampering under league rules.

I have made mention of this point in at least two different posts' in this thread. See permalink #352

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

BTW The Author of the article....... REPORT: REDSKINS WANT CHAD is:

Mark Curnutte.....mcurnutte@enquirer.com

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The Skins still have a very(very) young QB learning a new system,the Bengals have Carson Palmer(5th best QB) in a system he knows and perfoms in well.............why come here?

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leave him alone,let him go somewhere else

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[quote=schndr_tdd;423244]leave him alone,let him go somewhere else[/quote]


When DS wants something he usually gets it

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

The Bengals have stated they are not trading. I believe this is a moot point now. If the team kept pushing the issue wouldn't it fall under tampering? I'm suprised it hasn't yet. I know Chad has been the orchistrator but I would think we are walking a fine line. I wanted Chad but the Bengals are refusing to move him so lets look elsewhere and leave the Bengals to deal with an unhappy player who if they thought he was a cancer during the season then imagine him this year when he's unhappy and does not want to be there.

I would also stress that players need to honor their contracts. I liked that fact that GW put players on the bench. Maybe when a team has a player who is causing problems more coach's should be putting those players on the bench. The team won't get into trouble cause the player is in uniforme and is listed as active. The player will get bored sitting on the bench and will get the anger of the other players cause he is not being a team player to get on the field.

Either way it's the Bengals problem. Let them make their bed and lay in it. All we were trying to do is help them out. We need a WR and they need someone who will play their locker room games.lol.

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[quote=SBXVII;423261][B]The Bengals have stated they are not trading. I believe this is a moot point now[/B]. If the team kept pushing the issue wouldn't it fall under tampering? I'm suprised it hasn't yet. I know Chad has been the orchistrator but I would think we are walking a fine line. I wanted Chad but the Bengals are refusing to move him so lets look elsewhere and leave the Bengals to deal with an unhappy player who if they thought he was a cancer during the season then imagine him this year when he's unhappy and does not want to be there.

I would also stress that players need to honor their contracts. I liked that fact that GW put players on the bench. Maybe when a team has a player who is causing problems more coach's should be putting those players on the bench. The team won't get into trouble cause the player is in uniforme and is listed as active. The player will get bored sitting on the bench and will get the anger of the other players cause he is not being a team player to get on the field.

Either way it's the Bengals problem. Let them make their bed and lay in it. All we were trying to do is help them out. We need a WR and they need someone who will play their locker room games.lol.[/quote]


The Mavericks also said "we are not going to trade for Jason Kidd"

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

Ok, you got me. I'm lost. I'm assuming you are refering to basketball's Jason Kidd? Since I have been to busy to watch the Wiz...did they pick him up? or am I totally missing something. I know I'm a little slow this morning. lol.

Re: Ocho Cinco In B&G
 

I must be really slow today. lol. sorry. I missed your Mavericks part of your statement. man. maybe I need to go back to bed. lol.

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[QUOTE=EARTHQUAKE2689;423265]The Mavericks also said "we are not going to trade for Jason Kidd"[/QUOTE]

Give it up. He is too costly for us and why in the world would the Bengals let him go and take an $8 million hit? We are not playing Madden here. Its simply way too far fetched to happen, and even if it did all it would do is prolong our DB woes and make us have to wait yet again for another season with a 1st round draft pick being used for someone we need. I am convinced that all you CJ in D.C. supporters must see something in the 2009 draft class...

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we need him for west coast of!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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[QUOTE=goingdeep;423323]we need him for west coast of!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]
Could Bryant Johnson be a better fit? Cost less and younger with out giving up a number one pick in the draft! The go after Odom or Kelly then ues our # 1 pick on a DL and the 2nd on a CB!

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i wouldn't mind having #85 if he can keep his mouth shut. imagine it... T.O. vs. Ocho Cinco

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[quote=Stuck in TX;423279]Give it up. He is too costly for us and why in the world would the Bengals let him go and take an $8 million hit? We are not playing Madden here..[/quote]

Shhhhhhhhh, a lot of people here don't know that.

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[quote=atomicnixon;423506]i wouldn't mind having #85 if he can keep his mouth shut. imagine it... T.O. vs. Ocho Cinco[/quote]
that is if TO is staying with dallas...

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[quote=Campbell17;423537]that is if TO is staying with dallas...[/quote]

He is staying. It was announced 3 weeks ago that the Cowboys are picking up the option on Owens contract.

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"Chad Johnson is due a $250,000 workout bonus on March 24.
If Chad's not in Cincinnati then, we'll know he's serious about holding out.

Agent Drew Rosenhaus has said Johnson won't skip important offseason work, but forfeiting $250,000 would make an early statement."


[B]Source:[/B] [URL="http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20080215/COL03/802150431/"]Cincinnati Enquirer [/URL]

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[quote=goingdeep;423323]we need him for west coast of!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]


All you think about is going deep. We're not playing Madden, ya know. :cheeky-sm

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[quote=sandtrapjack;423568]He is staying. It was announced 3 weeks ago that the Cowboys are picking up the option on Owens contract.[/quote]
Oh, ok, then I want ocho cinco. It would make things interesting...

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[QUOTE=Stuck in TX;423279]Give it up. He is too costly for us and why in the world would the Bengals let him go and take an $8 million hit? We are not playing Madden here. Its simply way too far fetched to happen, and even if it did all it would do is prolong our DB woes and make us have to wait yet again for another season with a 1st round draft pick being used for someone we need. I am convinced that all you CJ in D.C. supporters must see something in the 2009 draft class...[/QUOTE]

They wouldn't! I said this about 20 pages ago...they would accelerate his bonus and they would save his cap number from this season, therefore, they would only take about a [B]$3.2 million cap hit according to Sirius NFL Radio[/B]

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[quote=jdlea;423637]They wouldn't! I said this about 20 pages ago...they would accelerate his bonus and they would save his cap number from this season, therefore, they would only take about a [B]$3.2 million cap hit according to Sirius NFL Radio[/B][/quote]

He is under contract with Cincinatti until 2011. They may be able to save the cap hit from this season, but what is the hit they would incur next season? Or the following season?

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[QUOTE=sandtrapjack;423638]He is under contract with Cincinatti until 2011. They may be able to save the cap hit from this season, but what is the hit they would incur next season? Or the following season?[/QUOTE]

They take none. All of his bonus money hits them when he comes off the books, but his base salary comes here with him. He would no longer count against their cap after this season.

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Can someone start a post for me if they feel this is realavent enough to have one:

The Chicago Bears released veteran wide receiver Muhsin Muhammad on Monday, NFL Network's Adam Schefter is reporting.

[url=http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d806bde90&template=without-video&confirm=true]Bears release WR Muhammed; sign DE Smith to extension[/url]

I dont think or feel I have enough time under my belt to start new posts. Thanks

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[quote=jdlea;423672]They take none. All of his bonus money hits them when he comes off the books, but his base salary comes here with him. He would no longer count against their cap after this season.[/quote]

Do you have a link or something that would better explain this? It makes no sense.

If they traded Johnson they would relieve themselves of the salary portion of the contract. But they are still liable for the pro rated signing bonus on him. Essentially the remaining portion of his bonus untill 2011 is accumulated in one lump sum and counts against thier cap. That is the "dead money" and that is where the 8 million in cap hits come from, the remaining portion of his signing bonus.

Now if there is a way to get rid of "dead money" like you say, then how come the Redskins have not been doing it for years? The Redskins lead the NFL in dead money at a staggering number of 128 million dollars in dead money alone. The NFL salary cap is only 116 million and the Redskins have more than that in dead money alone.

One would think that if there was a way to alleviate all that dead money like you say, than the Redskins would have been doing it for years.

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[QUOTE=sandtrapjack;423679]Do you have a link or something that would better explain this? It makes no sense.

If they traded Johnson they would relieve themselves of the salary portion of the contract. But they are still liable for the pro rated signing bonus on him. Essentially the remaining portion of his bonus untill 2011 is accumulated in one lump sum and counts against thier cap. That is the "dead money" and that is where the 8 million in cap hits come from, the remaining portion of his signing bonus.

Now if there is a way to get rid of "dead money" like you say, then how come the Redskins have not been doing it for years? The Redskins lead the NFL in dead money at a staggering number of 128 million dollars in dead money alone. The NFL salary cap is only 116 million and the Redskins have more than that in dead money alone.


One would think that if there was a way to alleviate all that dead money like you say, than the Redskins would have been doing it for years.[/QUOTE]

You make it sound as though the Redskins have $128 million in dead money this year, which of course is not true.

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[quote=SmootSmack;423685]You make it sound as though the Redskins have $128 million in dead money this year, which of course is not true.[/quote]

I got that number from ESPN:

[quote=ESPN]The Redskins have managed to remain more competitive despite leading the NFL in "dead" money since 1994 with nearly [B]$128 million, an average of more than $9 million per year, according to an NFL executive with access to league salary information. [/B]


Dead money piles up when teams release players before enough time has passed to spread the impact of large signing bonuses across multiple salary caps.


If the Redskins release Brunell, for example, they'll be able to subtract his base salary from the cap, but they'll still have to account for more than $3 million in "dead" bonus money that has yet to count.


The Redskins' dead-money totals have accelerated dramatically since Snyder purchased the team.


Their annual totals were $780,000 in 1994, $1.1 million in 1995, $1.4 million in 1996, $4.2 million in 1997 and $1.3 million in 1998. Subsequent totals have jumped to $7.6 million (1999), $5.7 million (2000), $14.8 million (2001), $13.2 million (2002), $14.4 million (2003), $11.2 million (2004), $20.1 million (2005), $21 million (2006) and $10.7 million last season.[/quote]

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=sando_mike&id=3247587]ESPN - How Washington approaches free agency is anyone's guess - NFL[/url]

Was just asking that if it was so easy to alleviate dead money, why hasn't it been done?

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Exactly, $128 million (or approximately that) since 1994. Not $128 million in 2008

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[quote=SmootSmack;423689]Exactly, $128 million (or approximately that) since 1994. Not $128 million in 2008[/quote]

Ok, back to the original question. How does a team alleviate that dead money? It was said that the 8 million dollar dead money cap hit on Johnson could be reduced to 3 million. I just would like to know HOW?

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Interesting that the poll on whether we should trade for Chad Johnson is closing.
I think originally it was like 70%/30% for it.

I think people are realizing that though hes a great talent, he would cost too much financially and potentially in the ego dept.

There are other options with WR that don't have these risks.

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[QUOTE=sandtrapjack;423679]Do you have a link or something that would better explain this? It makes no sense.

If they traded Johnson they would relieve themselves of the salary portion of the contract. But they are still liable for the pro rated signing bonus on him. Essentially the remaining portion of his bonus untill 2011 is accumulated in one lump sum and counts against thier cap. That is the "dead money" and that is where the 8 million in cap hits come from, the remaining portion of his signing bonus.

Now if there is a way to get rid of "dead money" like you say, then how come the Redskins have not been doing it for years? The Redskins lead the NFL in dead money at a staggering number of 128 million dollars in dead money alone. The NFL salary cap is only 116 million and the Redskins have more than that in dead money alone.

One would think that if there was a way to alleviate all that dead money like you say, than the Redskins would have been doing it for years.[/QUOTE]

The bonus money all accelerates into this season, however, that's only signing bonus money. All of the other bonuses (roster or whatever) go away. They don't count because he won't be on their roster, so what I head was, they would have $6 million accelerated into this year. Then, they would either have a relief of 3.2 or 2.8 (can't remember) for this season, so he would only count 2.8 or 3.2 this year. If he's gonna be a headache, $3 million is nothing against the cap to get rid of him.

After that, he would no longer count against the cap. He'd be off the books after this year.

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[QUOTE=jdlea;418639]Actually, I was listening to NFL Radio yesterday and they were saying that it is a $6 million cap hit for the Bengals to unload Johnson this season. However, they'll get the money back he would have made in salary, $2.8 million. Therefore, they would only be taking a $3.2 million cap hit next season, then he'd be off the books.

NOTE: I may have the $2.8 and $3.2 backwards, it could be a $2.8 cap hit with a salary of 3.2, but either way, it's not that much of a difference.

As big of a headache for the Bengals as Chad is becoming in Cincy, I think that $3 million (split the difference) is not that big of a hit.[/QUOTE]

What I said earlier...