Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

Its the top story on ESPN NFL.

[IMG]http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0416/nfl_a_zorn_campbell1_sw_576.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

Mosley is pretty much saying what another poster said here. DS and VC think they can find a Matt Ryan out of Sanchez.

He seems to think Zorn supports Campbell, which goes along with what SS clarified.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=hooskins;546686]Its the top story on ESPN NFL.

[IMG]http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0416/nfl_a_zorn_campbell1_sw_576.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

Zorn: "You smell something?"
Campbell: "I think it's Rabach."

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

I still can't get over all this. The Culter trade was going to make me very upset but this will just kill me. I look forward to Redskins football for the entire offseason and I really couldn't take it with Sanchez. At least Culter is a proven QB at this level.

As someone mentioned before the fans freaked out about Fassel and DS backed off, why can't the same happen with Sanchez?

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=hooskins;546690]I still can't get over all this. The Culter trade was going to make me very upset but this will just kill me. I look forward to Redskins football for the entire offseason and I really couldn't take it with Sanchez. At least Culter is a proven QB at this level.

As someone mentioned before the fans freaked out about Fassel and DS backed off, why can't the same happen with Sanchez?[/quote]

Because of the people in here who think Jason Campbell is the ONLY problem with the Redskins and the Cult of Colt.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

To me this is not just about JC and Colt. It is about trading up and wasting picks for Sanchez because he won't be there at 13.

I've already accepted the fact if he is there at 13, we will get him but it seems like he wont fall so far. But hey after Quinn, who knows.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=hooskins;546686]Its the top story on ESPN NFL.

[IMG]http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0416/nfl_a_zorn_campbell1_sw_576.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

Zorn: Jason, why is that man staring at me?
Campbell: Oh him? Thats Gregg Williams with two g's. He was supposed to get your job....but he didn't. Good thing I got the boss to tell me I'm their qb otherwise I might have ended up like Gregg...with two g's.

Of course this one I couldn't resist.
Zorn: Jason, whats that?
Jason: That? Thats the money you could be saving with Geico.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

BHA, with all due respect, you don't seem to know the first thing about what the WCO really is. I don't think you have any idea what, if anything, makes Campbell a worse fit than Mark Sanchez. I just think you like reading that point over and over again.

The idea that a QB could be a "bad fit" in the WCO is very absurd. It does take some time to develop a west coast mindset. But anyone with a right arm can be a west coast QB. Or a left arm, for that matter.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

They say the NFL is a copy kat league, maybe Vinny and Dan think with Mark Sanchez at QB he could lead us in to the playoffs. Much like Ryan and Flacco did for their teams. the problem is we dont have the Ravens great defense and we play in the NFC East. No way we win more than 6 games with a rookie QB. We can win with a defense that can force turnovers and get 3 and outs. So if the best tackles are not there at 13th pick and we cant trade down then use it on the best LB or DE . If we don't think the LB OR DE is worthy than draft the best RB(WELLS or Moreno). We need to keep our picks and stop trading them away every year for washed up veteran players ( Jason Taylor, Pete Kendal). The front office panic when Daniels went down so we gave up a 2nd to Miami. We have know confidence in our back up players apparently, with D.Evans and C. Wilson who were waiting for their chance to start. Well we know how that deal worked out. The 2008 draft was the most picks we have had in many years. All of our draft picks made the roster except the punter. I thought we were learning to build through the draft. What do you guys think?

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=hooskins;546688]Mosley is pretty much saying what another poster said here. DS and VC think they can find a Matt Ryan out of Sanchez.

He seems to think Zorn supports Campbell, which goes along with what SS clarified.[/quote]

Mosley's arguably a bigger Campbell fan than any of us here.

But yeah, it seems like what's happening is Zorn is being told "Look, we're not sure we want to make a big long-term financial commitment to Campbell. We're not convinced it's going to be money well spent (remember what I said in another post about econeomy, marketability, etc). So if we take him off the table, who's your QB?"

Zorn: "Well, I think I can make Campbell a good QB. All the other stuff I have nothing to do with. But if pressed, I like Colt but he's not ready. Give me Sanchez"

Blache: "My MLB is older than a lot of head coaches in this league (maybe one actually). And my DEs are older than that. I need help"

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;546691]Because of the people in here who think Jason Campbell is the ONLY problem with the Redskins and the Cult of Colt.[/quote]

Colt is the cult of personality too. Have you ever seen him throw? Pretty darn accurate. Ever seen Jason throw? Not accurate.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=Sonny9TD;546721]Colt is the cult of personality too. Have you ever seen him throw? Pretty darn accurate. Ever seen Jason throw? Not accurate.[/quote]


Really???? Then why did Colt go in the 6th round?? Just because he looked accurate against 2nd and 3rd rate talent doenst mean he is Joe Montana reincarnated.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=skins89moss;546698]They say the NFL is a copy kat league, maybe Vinny and Dan think with Mark Sanchez at QB he could lead us in to the playoffs. Much like Ryan and Flacco did for their teams. the problem is we dont have the Ravens great defense and we play in the NFC East. No way we win more than 6 games with a rookie QB. We can win with a defense that can force turnovers and get 3 and outs. So if the best tackles are not there at 13th pick and we cant trade down then use it on the best LB or DE . If we don't think the LB OR DE is worthy than draft the best RB(WELLS or Moreno). We need to keep our picks and stop trading them away every year for washed up veteran players ( Jason Taylor, Pete Kendal). The front office panic when Daniels went down so we gave up a 2nd to Miami. We have know confidence in our back up players apparently, with D.Evans and C. Wilson who were waiting for their chance to start. Well we know how that deal worked out. The 2008 draft was the most picks we have had in many years. All of our draft picks made the roster except the punter. I thought we were learning to build through the draft. What do you guys think?[/quote]


Flacco didnt lead his team anywhere the defense carried that team and the Falcons run game is what got them to the playoffs and copycat is spelled with a C just for future reference

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

Smokescreen, and it's got Kiper fooled too. Good for the FO, maybe get some better value to trade down at # 13 or force someone elses hand to leave us a better player at # 13.

However, if I'm wrong and they move up or draft Sanchez at # 13, mine will be another TV in the shop.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[Quote=Ruhskins]Many people are like this, I don't understand why such hatred for Campbell. I guess these people didn't see wideouts dropping good passes or our old offensive linemen getting bulldozed during the second half of the season. I wish people would write long threads on why we should draft a stud o-lineman instead of all of this anti-Campbell stuff. It reminds me when Reed Doughty became Redskins enemy #1 and people stopped talking about him when he got hurt. [/quote]

Its not "hate" of Campbell. He has his own sets of strenghts and weaknesses, just like any other QB. The problem is he doesnt get to use his natural strenghts in the WCO and his weaknesses are magnified 100 times. Bringing on Zorn and his WCO and expecting it to work with Campbell was a horrible decision on the FOs part... which brings me to the issue here"

Alot of you seem to look at this issue from the perspective of what SHOULD be done or makes sense to you - but it completely[I] ignores [/I]the reality that our owner is Daniel Snyder and our GM is vinny Cerrato. Im looking at the issue of what we should do [I]given the fact that[/I] our owner is DS and GM is VC.

About WRs... yes, his WRs dropped some balls, but i cant even count the number of times Campbell grossly over or under threw a wide open receiver for a short catch. Many times, our receivers and TEs cant get YAC because Campbell cant hit them in stride. While Campbell has deadly accuracy on his deep ball, hes horribly erratic on the short and medium-throws.

Anyway, as you said, if we keep Campbell as our QB in 2009, we absolutely need to give him O-line help. Campbell holds on to the ball way to long for this system and he absolutely needs more time. He won't be successful without a top5 O-line. If we don't give him serious O-line help, were ensuring his failure. (on the flip side, if we select a QB who makes quicker decisions and is more accurate on the short throws, allowing our receivers more completions and YAC, we're fine with the line we have and can focus on upgrading it coming seasons.)

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=Paintrain]The funniest, most ironic thing is the lack of patience and foresight you kill the front office of is the justification for mortgaging the future because you're unhappy with consistent progress. [/quote]

I'm not necessarily unhappy with consistent progress, but I understand and accept the fact that our Owner isnt. This league, and to some extent, the world we live in, is obsessed with instant gratification. You don't think a 500 season followed by a 9-7 season (and no playoff wins) with Campbell is enough for Snyder to fire Zorn - in a year when Bill Cowher, Mike Shanahan, John Gruden and Mike Holmgreen are available, then you're just not being realistic.

Zorn and Campbell would have to do EXTREMELY well for Snyder to resist the urge to make one of those guys the highest paid coaches in the history of football. For Campbell, he's got to go to the Pro-bowl. For Zorn, i dont think he keeps his job (if Campbell is QB) with anything less than 11-5 or multiple playoff victories.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;546737][B]Smokescreen, and it's got Kiper fooled too. Good for the FO, maybe get some better value to trade down at # 13 or force someone elses hand to leave us a better player at # 13.[/B]

However, if I'm wrong and they move up or draft Sanchez at # 13, mine will be another TV in the shop.[/quote]

I'm praying this is true...

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[Quote=Ruhskins]Because of the people in here who think Jason Campbell is the ONLY problem with the Redskins and the Cult of Colt. [/quote]
People like me point out that QB is ONE of our problems and we're labeled as claiming its the ONLY problem? i dont think ANYONE here has ever claimed that he is the "only" problem.

QB is a position of concern in 2009, and likely (for one reason or another) to be a position of extreme need in 2010. It needs to be evaluated and prioritized along with OL, DE, LB, WR, RB and nickleback. The evaluation needs to compare the specific players we have with the specific players we are able to acquire, what players will be available next year, the risks involved if an draftee doesnt work out, the risks involved in "doing nothing" to address each position, and so on.

The bottom line question is this - What actions can we take to have the best long-term effect on the franchise?

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;546742]Alot of you seem to look at this issue from the perspective of what SHOULD be done or makes sense to you - but it completely[I] ignores [/I]the reality that our owner is Daniel Snyder and our GM is vinny Cerrato. Im looking at the issue of what we should do [I]given the fact that[/I] our owner is DS and GM is VC. [/quote]What is best for the team is what SHOULD be done, regardless of who the onwer and GM are. I think the more appropriate phrase would be; Will DS & VC do what should be done in the best interest of the Redskins.

[quote]About WRs... yes, his WRs dropped some balls, but i cant even count the number of times Campbell grossly over or under threw a wide open receiver for a short catch. Many times, our receivers and TEs cant get YAC because Campbell cant hit them in stride. While Campbell has deadly accuracy on his deep ball, hes horribly erratic on the short and medium-throws.[/quote]Your statement is completely wrong. You can't count the number of times JC over or under-threw wide open receivers on a mid-short throw, because there just weren't many. If JC is inaccurate anywhere it's his deep ball, those he misses on more than his short/mid-range throws.

[quote].....Campbell holds on to the ball way to long for this system and he absolutely needs more time....(on the flip side, if we select a QB who makes quicker decisions and is more accurate on the short throws, allowing our receivers more completions and YAC, we're fine with the line we have and can focus on upgrading it coming seasons.)[/quote]Haven't we heard this before? You put a rookie QB who had one successful season behing our current O-line (even with a healthy Thomas) and we will struggle far worse than JC did in the second half of 2008.

Unless you're ready to blow the whole thing up and start from scratch the Sanchez thing is complete stupidity. You bring a rookie QB into the mix and start him, you set the franchise back 2-3 years. IMO we are far from a position where the whole team needs to be blown up and rebuilt.

Let's say for the sake of argument we draft Sanchez at # 13. We still have immediate needs at OT, LDE & OLB which we will probably not fill, if lucky we'll fill one with our 3rd rounder. Portis isn't getting any younger, Samuels, Thomas and Rabach will all be the wrong side of 33 by Sept. 2010, and Samuels & Thomas are having injuries. Fletch isn't getting any younger, What do we do with Rogers in a contract year next year? Moss isn't getting any younger either, and his main weapon is his speed. What if one of the two young WRs doesn't develop? Now going into the 2010 season we have holes at OTx2, OLBx2, LDE, C, WR, possbily RB, possibly CB. Now we'll likely have a BAD OL and a 2nd year QB, not a good mix. But at least we'll have high draft picks because if we replace JC with Sanchez we're looking at no better than 6-10.

How about we address our OT, LDE, OLB situation this year with a trade down and fill two of those holes. Let's see if JC continues his development along the lines of what Hasslebeck did in the second year with Zorn (Pro Bowl level). He does and we re-sign him, he doesn't then we look for help next off-season.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;546752]People like me point out that QB is ONE of our problems and we're labeled as claiming its the ONLY problem? i dont think ANYONE here has ever claimed that he is the "only" problem.

QB is a position of concern in 2009, and likely (for one reason or another) to be a position of extreme need in 2010. It needs to be evaluated and prioritized along with OL, DE, LB, WR, RB and nickleback. The evaluation needs to compare the specific players we have with the specific players we are able to acquire, what players will be available next year, the risks involved if an draftee doesnt work out, the risks involved in "doing nothing" to address each position, and so on.

The bottom line question is this - What actions can we take to have the best long-term effect on the franchise?[/quote]

It doesn't matter who is playing QB if we cannot protect him. We may have a pretty good QB right now and not know it because like a prostitute he is always on his back.

Case and point 2 seasons ago Tom Brady looked like the best QB in history because he never got touched and had all damn day to throw the ball in every game. In the Superbowl however, he was under constant pressure. Although, he was still considered a good QB, he just did not look the same in that game.

It is absolutley amazing at how good a great Oline can make the skill position players look, and oddly the skins have neglected the trenches for nearly a decade. Yet we are so quick to give up on a QB that was drafted in the first round and has shown considerable progress.

IMHO Jay Cutler, Mark Sanchez, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, and anyone else you want to name would suck behind our line too.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;546742]Its not "hate" of Campbell. He has his own sets of strenghts and weaknesses, just like any other QB. The problem is he doesnt get to use his natural strenghts in the WCO and his weaknesses are magnified 100 times. Bringing on Zorn and his WCO and expecting it to work with Campbell was a horrible decision on the FOs part... which brings me to the issue here"[/quote]Hey, I'm totally okay with you saying we shouldn't extend Jason Campbell's contract just yet. There is [U]nothing[/U] wrong with a wait and see approach here.

But your assessment of Campbell's weaknesses center around him being "slow." If you want to see slow, you have to watch guys like McNabb, Roethlisberger, JaMarcus Russell, or someone really young like Joe Flacco.

The truth is that Jason Campbell isn't slower than you would expect a player at his age and experience level to be. There is zero reason to believe he can't improve his WCO mechanics from year to year.

See, this is the kind of thing that you NEED the opinion of the experts on. No one cares whether Trent Dilfer thinks Mark Sanchez is going to be great. But an untrained eye can't tell if a QB is going through his progressions at the right speed. I don't see any overt problem here, so until someone comes out and suggests that it's just not happening fast enough, your position on this one continues to be in the "crackpot evidence" category.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;546752]The bottom line question is this - What actions can we take to have the best long-term effect on the franchise?[/quote]

So how would possibly trading up help us long-term, if we're sacrificing future picks?

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=GMScud;540756]:doh:[/quote]

yep.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33] What is best for the team is what SHOULD be done, regardless of who the onwer and GM are. I think the more appropriate phrase would be; Will DS & VC do what should be done in the best interest of the Redskins.[/quote]
Like it or not, Snyder is the owner of this team; he probably will be for the next 30+ years; and he's not going to change... atleast not anytime soon. If you expect change, then you're just going to be disappointed for the next 30 years. However, if we accept DS and then find a way to "work around" him, then we can start making some progress. This team has been in search of a franchise QB for years. If we get a franchise QB, and keep the same system for 3-4 years, then we have plenty of time to build the pieces around him. It would be nice if we had done that with JC after we drafted him but we didnt. He's damaged goods and and if we don't cut ties with him this year, we certainly will next year. Its time to move on.

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33]Your statement is completely wrong. You can't count the number of times JC over or under-threw wide open receivers on a mid-short throw, because there just weren't many. If JC is inaccurate anywhere it's his deep ball, those he misses on more than his short/mid-range throws.[/quote]
No, my statement is not wrong. yours shows that you dont remember a thing from last season. Jason RARELY threw deep at all. 90-95% of his passes were in the short- to medium- range and he was just awful. Receivers were regularly having to adjust dramatically to get to the ball, and it really hurt our YAC, which in turn resulted in more long 3rd downs, which resulted in JC throwing 3 yards short of a 1st down, which resulted in ended drives, which resulted in offensive futility, which resulted in us relying too heavily on our defense which resulted in us losing games. JCs strength has always been a big arm, an accurate deep ball, and play action. His weaknesses have always been indecision coupled with a slow release (likely a result of constant system changes and less than elite offensive line giving him extraordinary time), and touch and accuracy on the short stuff. JC is a guy who would THRIVE in the system he was drafted for and the modified system Saunders brought. Why we decided to make him start from scratch and learn another system is beyond me.

[guote=GTripp0012]But your assessment of Campbell's weaknesses center around him being "slow." If you want to see slow, you have to watch guys like McNabb, Roethlisberger, JaMarcus Russell, or someone really young like Joe Flacco.[/quote] Theres nothing "wrong" with any of those QBs. They are good in their systems but they rely far too heavily on an offensive line. At the beginning of last season, Peyton Manning lost [U]4 of his 5 starting linemen[/U] last year, his starting running back, and he had only one good receiver... yet the Colts still played extremely well. Why? Because he's quick and makes extremely good decisions. He doesnt need an offensive line to regularly protect him for 4 seconds like the Jason Campbells and Ben Rothlesburgers of the world. Its easier to replace one QB than it is to replace 3-4 starting linemen and thats exactly what we would have to do right not to give Campbell what he needs to succeed.

[quote=SmootSmack] So how would possibly trading up help us long-term, if we're sacrificing future picks? [/quote] If the guy you are trading up for is a QB who you can build a team around, then its absolutely worth it. If he isn't, then its a colossal mistake and you will be worse off than you were before. Its an enormous risk - one that would push the skins in a definative direction: Towards joining the leagues elite (Pats, Colts, Giants, Steelers) or bottom-dwellers (Lions, Raiders, Bengals). In my opinion, its a risk worth taking. If it fails, then atleast it ensures we'll be rid of Vinny Cerrato once and for all. Not making the move ensures the skins remain what they have been for nearly 20 years: mediocre. I don't know about you, but I'm sick of mediocre.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

I'm kind of shocked at how MS's stock has just sky rocketed. I know he's a team leader, he's pretty talented and he's a big rah rah gym rat kind of guy. But if I were to compare him to Carson Palmer ( when Palmer was coming out) there is not comparison. Palmer when healthy is just a top 5 NFL QB. I just don't think Sanchez is in that same ballpark talent wise. If he was I wouldn't have a problem with the FO going after a talented player like that. But to me Sanchez is a 2nd round player. Campbell needs to improve but he isn't the big weak link on this team and everyone knows it. I'm just wondering if this Sanchez hype is more about marketing or is it about winning?

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;546793]If the guy you are trading up for is a QB who you can build a team around, then its absolutely worth it. If he isn't, then its a colossal mistake and you will be worse off than you were before. Its an enormous risk - one that would push the skins in a definative direction: Towards joining the leagues elite (Pats, Colts, Giants, Steelers) or bottom-dwellers (Lions, Raiders, Bengals). In my opinion, its a risk worth taking. If it fails, then atleast it ensures we'll be rid of Vinny Cerrato once and for all. Not making the move ensures the skins remain what they have been for nearly 20 years: mediocre. I don't know about you, but I'm sick of mediocre.[/quote]Again, to say this is missing the point. We're [I]not [/I]"building" anything. At all. We're playing everyone's favorite NFL game, QB roulette.

One of my firm beliefs is that Donovan McNabb has been a detriment to the Eagles since they've been at the highest level of competition for so many years. I've always thought that QB was a position that they could try to make a significant upgrade at. I say this despite strong evidence that McNabb is a good, and at times, great Quarterback.

But you see, in order to build a team that wins consistently, the Eagles have to constantly build the team up around Donovan to win. They can't waste years upon years looking for someone better. It's called diminishing returns. They have to give up the best possible team they can and hope that in the playoffs, he can get going on a run that takes them to the super bowl. It's simply their best chance.

Think of it from this angle: they obviously made the right choice in 1999 taking him over Ricky Williams and all the other QBs. But just because they did everything right doesn't mean there wouldn't be better options out there in the past and future.

You just don't seem to understand that taking Sanchez doesn't change a goddamn thing. NOTHING IS DIFFERENT. WE STILL NEED TO IMPROVE THE BLOCKING AND HOPE FOR A QUICK DEVELOPMENT OF THE WIDE RECEIVERS WE DRAFTED. The only thing that changes is now we have uncertainty at the QB position. Instead of "How good can Jason Campbell be?" the question becomes "Can Mark Sanchez even play in the NFL?"

Ultimately, BHA, your disdain for Jason Campbell is causing you to say totally ridiculous things about the Quarterback position. There is no "disagreement" here. Your position just starts and ends with the desire to have anyone else but Campbell under center by 2010. To you, that has become more important than winning.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

I think I now know what the Front Office thinks about our line.

C Samuals - The best, will continue to be dominant
D. Dockery - Paired with Samuals will help us get a nice push as well as help Rabach out against Nose Tackles
C. Rabach - Buges likes him so that's good enough for everyone else
R. Thomas - Apparently he's healthy now
S. Heyer - Hopefully fear of loosing his best chance to play in the league will force him to fix his technique once and for all

C. Rhinehart - He'll develop
J. Jansen - Bad all year starter, great backup
J. Fabini - Good Backup
Justin G. - Well someone needs to play backup at center.

And for anyone curious the following have expiring contracts after this year. Though I'd be amazed if some of them hit the open market

- Marcus McNeil
- Michael Roos
- Eric Winston
- Alex Barron
- Winston Justice
- Jeremy Trueblood

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;546793]If the guy you are trading up for is a QB who you can build a team around, then its absolutely worth it. If he isn't, then its a colossal mistake and you will be worse off than you were before. Its an enormous risk - one that would push the skins in a definative direction: Towards joining the leagues elite (Pats, Colts, Giants, Steelers) or bottom-dwellers (Lions, Raiders, Bengals). In my opinion, its a risk worth taking. If it fails, then atleast it ensures we'll be rid of Vinny Cerrato once and for all. Not making the move ensures the skins remain what they have been for nearly 20 years: mediocre. I don't know about you, but I'm sick of mediocre.[/quote]

I think you've brought this notion up in the past, haven't you? This idea of "If things go the way we hope, we'll fail so miserably changes will have to be made." That's a curious way to think.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;546799]I think I now know what the Front Office thinks about our line.

C Samuals - The best, will continue to be dominant
D. Dockery - Paired with Samuals will help us get a nice push as well as help Rabach out against Nose Tackles
C. Rabach - Buges likes him so that's good enough for everyone else
R. Thomas - Apparently he's healthy now
S. Heyer - Hopefully fear of loosing his best chance to play in the league will force him to fix his technique once and for all

C. Rhinehart - He'll develop
J. Jansen - Bad all year starter, great backup
J. Fabini - Good Backup
Justin G. - Well someone needs to play backup at center.

And for anyone curious the following have expiring contracts after this year. Though I'd be amazed if some of them hit the open market

- Marcus McNeil
- Michael Roos
- Eric Winston
- Alex Barron
- Winston Justice
- Jeremy Trueblood[/quote]

That post actually eases my mind regarding our O-Line. I know we still need some infusion of youth and top tier talent. But we aren't forced into reaching fo a guy, like Oher, instead of drafting best player available. Mauualuga!

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=SmootSmack]I think you've brought this notion up in the past, haven't you? This idea of "If things go the way we hope, we'll fail so miserably changes will have to be made." That's a curious way to think.[/quote] I was just trying to look at the positive aspect of even the worst-case scenario (Vinny being gone for good). Trading up to draft Sanchez would be a huge risk, but i think its a risk worth taking because of the potential rewards (building around a franchise QB and becoming an elite team). If Snyder drafted Sanchez, then fired zorn and brought in Gruden or Cowher in 2010, it would be a monumental failure. Snyder would need to ensure that Zorn (or if he had to make a change, Shanahan or Holmgren) kept the same (or very similar) system in place - otherwise Sanchez would just become Patrick Ramsey 3.0 (Campbell is 2.0).

[Quote=Gtripp0012]
You just don't seem to understand that taking Sanchez doesn't change a goddamn thing. NOTHING IS DIFFERENT. WE STILL NEED TO IMPROVE THE BLOCKING AND HOPE FOR A QUICK DEVELOPMENT OF THE WIDE RECEIVERS WE DRAFTED. The only thing that changes is now we have uncertainty at the QB position. Instead of "How good can Jason Campbell be?" the question becomes "Can Mark Sanchez even play in the NFL?"

Ultimately, BHA, your disdain for Jason Campbell is causing you to say totally ridiculous things about the Quarterback position. There is no "disagreement" here. Your position just starts and ends with the desire to have anyone else but Campbell under center by 2010. To you, that has become more important than winning. [/quote]

I have NOTHING against Campbell. I have said over and over again that we wouldnt be having this discussion if we hadnt brought in Zorn and the WCO. Campbell would be lightyears ahead of where he is now and in a system that covered his flaws and played to his strenghts... Campbell would probably be a pro-bowler now if we had kept the Gibbs/Saunders system here... but we didnt. I am positive Campbell will never become a franchise QB in this system. So, I have a dilema - either the system goes, or Campbell does. I pick Campbell to go, if, for no other reason, than i think he might go postal on everyone at Redskins park right before his head explodes. I pick the system to stay, if for no other reason than it'll prevent all the other offensive players wont have to learn anything new this offseason either... thus furthering their development. To reiterate, i dont hate Campbell. I hate the "match" Snyderatto made last offseason. Campbell is a square peg. Zorns system is a round hole - it aint ever gonna fit.

I find it strange that you and other people point to Campbells improvement in some areas as reasons to stick with him... yet you want to give up on guys like Stephon Heyer, who have also shown steady improvement year after year... Why not have faith that Heyer will develop into a solid, if not elite, RT?

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;546793]However, if we accept DS and then find a way to "work around" him, then we can start making some progress. [/quote]"We" don't have any say in working with or around DS. It's his team and he'll do whatever he wants. All we can do is post on message boards or make the decision to attend/watch or not the games and buy/not buy merchandise.

[quote]This team has been in search of a franchise QB for years. If we get a franchise QB, and keep the same system for 3-4 years, then we have plenty of time to build the pieces around him. It would be nice if we had done that with JC after we drafted him but we didnt. He's damaged goods and and if we don't cut ties with him this year, we certainly will next year. Its time to move on.[/quote]The Redskins have been searching for a franchise QB since Theisman's leg was broken by LT. JC isn't damaged goods, that's ridiculous. How about we don't wait 3-4 years and compete now.

[quote]No, my statement is not wrong. yours shows that you dont remember a thing from last season.....[/quote]Round and round we go.....but you have NEVER in any thread about JC given an answer/justification as to why JC was on a Pro Bowl pace early in 2008 and then he just magically, by himself, started to suck in the second half. Anyone whose judgement on JC isn't clouded would say the OL was the problem, but you've discounted that before, so what's the answer?


[quote]Not making the move [B]ensures[/B] the skins remain what they have been for nearly 20 years: mediocre. I don't know about you, but I'm sick of mediocre.[/quote]Not if JC continues on his current pace of improvement and his QB rating jumps another 7 points this season, then we'll certainly not be mediocre. Fix the OL and the offense will be fine. If you know anything about football it all starts there. Franchise QBs don't grow on trees and the odds of top ten picks at QB being busts is actually higher than the pick being successful. For every Peyton Manning, there are more Akili Smith / Alex Smith / J. Russells / M. Leinarts. Not a risk worth taking on a player with one good year in college.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;546818]I was just trying to look at the positive aspect of even the worst-case scenario (Vinny being gone for good). Trading up to draft Sanchez would be a huge risk, but i think its a risk worth taking because of the potential rewards (building around a franchise QB and becoming an elite team). If Snyder drafted Sanchez, then fired zorn and brought in Gruden or Cowher in 2010, it would be a monumental failure. Snyder would need to ensure that Zorn (or if he had to make a change, Shanahan or Holmgren) kept the same (or very similar) system in place - otherwise Sanchez would just become Patrick Ramsey 3.0 (Campbell is 2.0).



I have NOTHING against Campbell. I have said over and over again that we wouldnt be having this discussion if we hadnt brought in Zorn and the WCO. Campbell would be lightyears ahead of where he is now and in a system that covered his flaws and played to his strenghts... Campbell would probably be a pro-bowler now if we had kept the Gibbs/Saunders system here... but we didnt. I am positive Campbell will never become a franchise QB in this system. So, I have a dilema - either the system goes, or Campbell does. I pick Campbell to go, if, for no other reason, than i think he might go postal on everyone at Redskins park right before his head explodes. I pick the system to stay, if for no other reason than it'll prevent all the other offensive players wont have to learn anything new this offseason either... thus furthering their development. To reiterate, i dont hate Campbell. I hate the "match" Snyderatto made last offseason. Campbell is a square peg. Zorns system is a round hole - it aint ever gonna fit.

I find it strange that you and other people point to Campbells improvement in some areas as reasons to stick with him... yet you want to give up on guys like Stephon Heyer, who have also shown steady improvement year after year... Why not have faith that Heyer will develop into a solid, if not elite, RT?[/quote]1) Does it bother you at all that you're alone in the assumption that Jason Campbell's skill set doesn't play in the WCO? You're okay assuming that your assessment is sufficient to warrant dismissal?

2) It's a legitimate question regarding Heyer, but I'm not sure I'd say we've seen steady improvement. He came into the league with good pass blocking fundamentals, and he still has no idea how to properly execute a toss play.

Ultimately though, Heyer is a different issue altogether, because Jason Campbell was a well polished first round quarterback out of college, and Stephon Heyer was a developmental tackle who went undrafted.

I'm all for playing the young guys on this team, but he has to at least prove he can be the best option first. Jason Campbell has already proven he's the best option we have right now. There's no veteran, established QB on the trading block who would be a significant upgrade over Campbell. Therefore, improving on him is a non-issue.

Again, nobody thinks that Sanchez would be an improvement over Campbell. I do think some people are suggesting we start rebuilding with a QB in this draft, and go all-young...except we just signed a 28-year old DT to an 100 million dollar contract, so, it's a little late for that.

I'll throw a question back at you: If the Redskins draft Sanchez with the 13th pick and they cut Todd Collins (and not Jason Campbell), who would you start on opening day: Campbell, Brennan, or Sanchez?

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;546712]Mosley's arguably a bigger Campbell fan than any of us here.

But yeah, it seems like what's happening is Zorn is being told "Look, we're not sure we want to make a big long-term financial commitment to Campbell. We're not convinced it's going to be money well spent [B](remember what I said in another post about econeomy, marketability, etc)[/B]. So if we take him off the table, who's your QB?"

Zorn: "Well, I think I can make Campbell a good QB. All the other stuff I have nothing to do with. But if pressed, I like Colt but he's not ready. Give me Sanchez"

Blache: "My MLB is older than a lot of head coaches in this league (maybe one actually). And my DEs are older than that. I need help"[/quote]

Jesus...

That all gets fixed once we start winning f'n games and a Superbowl. Not a lot of marketable QBs out there who haven't won a SB. Our lack of a SB has almost zero to do with JC.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=FRPLG;546839]Jesus...

That all gets fixed once we start winning f'n games and a Superbowl. [b]Not a lot of marketable QBs out there who haven't won a SB.[/b] Our lack of a SB has almost zero to do with JC.[/quote] True but ESPN sure the hell tries with Romo!

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;546818]I find it strange that you and other people point to Campbells improvement in some areas as reasons to stick with him... yet you want to give up on guys like Stephon Heyer, who have also shown steady improvement year after year... Why not have faith that Heyer will develop into a solid, if not elite, RT?[/quote]

I guess it's the same way we find it strange that you point to Heyer's improvement in some areas as reasons to stick with him... yet you want to give up on guys like Jason Campbell, who have also shown steady improvement year after year... Why not have faith that Campbell will develop into a solid, if not elite, QB?

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

Bottom line here is folks, a new QB no matter who he is isn't going to fix the other issues we have. You build a team from the inside out. Build up the lines and build a strong supporting cast and you can put a decent QB back there and get quality production and win games. Put a good QB behind a bad line with no help around him, and he's going to play to the level of the rest of the offense, simple as that.

It amazes me that some still can't see the writing on the wall. Last year through the first 8 games JC was getting the protection he needed and the rest of the offense was playing well, and what do you know JC was playing well. In the final 8 games he was under pressure and the rest of the offense crumbled around him, and surprise surprise he struggled. It doesn't get any more obvious to me what the issues were.

If we draft Sanchez I might have to take a step back from being a Skins fan for a while. That's how ticked I will be, I'll have one foot out the door.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=GTripp0012]1) Does it bother you at all that you're alone in the assumption that Jason Campbell's skill set doesn't play in the WCO? You're okay assuming that your assessment is sufficient to warrant dismissal?[/quote] No, it doesnt, because i'm not alone. Multipe sources were sited as saying this a year ago. Every paid professional that i can recall reading questioned the move, and JCs ability to transiton. While no one on this forum seems to share my view, its a common belief in other forums i visit and amongst my friends. So really, the only place where i go that i don't find anyone beleiving this simple fact is here. It doesnt bother me at all, but i do wonder why you cant see something thats clear as day to me. I guess everyone is entitled to beleive what they want some people are convinced in a God, others are convinced the mere notion is completely idiotic. Both views can't be right, but staunch supporters of either position will never be convinced that the other side is right. I view it as a similar situation here. From my POV, you have blind faith in Campbells success in this system. In my view, all the evidence points to the contrary. Im open to every possibility, but i won't beleive it until i see it.

[quote=GTripp0012]2) It's a legitimate question regarding Heyer, but I'm not sure I'd say we've seen steady improvement. He came into the league with good pass blocking fundamentals, and he still has no idea how to properly execute a toss play.

Ultimately though, Heyer is a different issue altogether, because Jason Campbell was a well polished first round quarterback out of college, and Stephon Heyer was a developmental tackle who went undrafted.[/quote]
I agree with what you say about Heyer vs Jason based on their starting point (Campbell-High, Heyer-Low) but for those same reasons, i feel the ceiling is lower for Campbell than it is for Heyer. Campbell clearly showed what he was capeable of, which is why he was drafted so high. With Heyer, he has much more room to improve, if that makes sense.

[quote=GTripp0012]
I'm all for playing the young guys on this team, but he has to at least prove he can be the best option first. Jason Campbell has already proven he's the best option we have right now. There's no veteran, established QB on the trading block who would be a significant upgrade over Campbell. Therefore, improving on him is a non-issue.[/quote]
Excluding the draft, i dont think we could make significant improvements over either Heyer or Campbell, so improving on either of them prior to the drafu is a non-issue.

[quote=GTripp0012]Again, [U]nobody[/U] thinks that Sanchez would be an improvement over Campbell. I do think some people are suggesting we start rebuilding with a QB in this draft, and go all-young...except we just signed a 28-year old DT to an 100 million dollar contract, so, it's a little late for that.[/quote]
"No one" on [I]this forum[/I] seems to think Sanchez would be an upgrade over Campbell... but that doesnt mean "no one." Obviously, there arent alot of people making direct comparisons out there, but most teams have Sanchez rated as the best QB in the draft. The Lions are the only team that seems to prefer Stafford and i'm not really sure why... oh, thats right - they're the Lions. Anyway, with Campbell, we know what we're getting. He's a classy mild mannered guy who doesnt make mistakes. With Sanchez, we're getting a guy who has all the physical tools Campbell has, but with the "it" factor. He also has had the advantage of being in only one system the past 3 years.... as opposed to the 7? Campbells been in in the past 9?.

[quote=GTripp0012]I'll throw a question back at you: If the Redskins draft Sanchez with the 13th pick and they cut Todd Collins (and not Jason Campbell), who would you start on opening day: Campbell, Brennan, or Sanchez? [/quote]
Interesting you bring that up, since CP was just talking about that.
[url=http://www.hogshaven.com/2009/4/17/841369/clinton-portis-talks-sanchez-in]Clinton Portis Talks Sanchez in Interview with NFL Live crew - Hogs Haven[/url]

I've rambled on enough, but suffice to say, I'd be thrilled in that scenario: Let them compete for it, let them both make eachother better, and let the best man win.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;546872]
It amazes me that some still can't see the writing on the wall. Last year through the first 8 games JC was getting the protection he needed and the rest of the offense was playing well, and what do you know JC was playing well. In the final 8 games he was under pressure and the rest of the offense crumbled around him, and surprise surprise he struggled. It doesn't get any more obvious to me what the issues were.[/QUOTE]

First of all, during the first half of the season, JC wasn't doing all that great. He was still just averaging 1 TD per game. The only thing JC wasnt doing was throwing picks. I'd take a QB who throws 3 TDs and 2 INTs per game over a guy who doesnt make mistakes any day of the week - TDs = 7Points. INTs just mean you turn the ball over - they dont always result in points and probably wouldnt result in too many TDs with this defense.

Secondly, how JC fared in the 2nd half of the season says all we need to know about him - he can't handle pressure.

The O-line declined in the 2nd half of the year, but barring the game where our backup center was playing Left Tackle and blocking one of the best pass rushers in the league, it was still one of the better O-lines in the league (and by that i mean top 16). Yes, the line declined, but JC didnt adapt. He didnt step up. He didn't get rid of the ball faster and he didnt become more accurate with his short passes. JC, like alot of "good" QBs out there are only considered good because they have a GREAT supporting cast.

I guess there are two different philosophies:
1) Have a GREAT suppoting cast so you can get by with a GOOD QB, or
2) HAVE a GREAT QB so you can get by with a GOOD supporting cast.

IMO its easier to get one GREAT player than it is to get 21 others.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

USC made Sanchez and not the other way around. He's a career back-up at best.

Re: Mark Sanchez at 13th?
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;546876]Every paid professional that i can recall reading questioned the move, and JCs ability to transiton. [/quote]Many did prior to the season and by game 5 or 6 were speaking about JC as playing at a Pro Bowl or potential MVP level.

[quote]I view it as a similar situation here. From my POV, you have blind faith in Campbells success in this system. In my view, [B]all the evidence points to the contrary.[/B] Im open to every possibility, but i won't beleive it until i see it.[/quote]Here's the problem, you won't accept the evidence that supports the point that JC is getting better. QB rating improvements, etc. provided by many on this forum in response to your posts. The main reason I come to this forum is because in general the folks here make their points with more than anecdotes to back them up (and that includes you, on any other issue than JC, your posts are normally well thought out)

[quote]"No one" on [I]this forum[/I] seems to think Sanchez would be an upgrade over Campbell... but that doesnt mean "no one." Obviously, there arent alot of people making direct comparisons out there, but most teams have Sanchez rated as the best QB in the draft.[/quote]"Many" had Ryan Leaf rated as the best QB in his draft and above Peyton Manning. Even if Sanchez is the best QB in this draft, he only has one year of starting experience at USC which is stockpiled with talent and overmatches almost every team they play against with shear talent. How can you truly evaluate him in that environment? Hell, if you put me on the field with the talent at USC I'd put up numbers.

[quote]Interesting you bring that up, since CP was just talking about that.
[URL="http://www.hogshaven.com/2009/4/17/841369/clinton-portis-talks-sanchez-in"]Clinton Portis Talks Sanchez in Interview with NFL Live*crew - Hogs Haven[/URL]
[/quote]Yes, and he said he believed JC would win the job. (and I generally do not cite CP as a talent evaluator)