Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=Ruhskins;903897]Looks like compensatory picks will be given out today during the owner's meeting.[/quote]

In unrelated news, the NFL has announced it has seized the Redskins remaining 2012 draft picks and distributed them amongst New York teams with names that end in "Giants" as punishment for their defiance against The Supreme Overlord NFL Management Council.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

Extra picks?! AWESOME.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;903903]Extra picks?! AWESOME.[/quote]

Well no word yet on whether the Skins will get any extra picks :(

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

Dammit. I mean the fact other teams were rewarded for this BS means we deserve something for our troubles too.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=Ruhskins;903900]I still don't understand how the Bears dumping almost $35 mil of Pepper's salary is not seen as a competitive advantage.[/quote]

Actually all that are shown. Houston got a $15mill advantage. The league took 18 form us for one year so why didn't they take 7.5 of Houstons? Dallas had 10 total and they took 5 this yr. Even the Cheifs saved a good bit, why didn't the league split their savings.

I was going to joke and say the limit was $10mill or more but your right the Bears dumped $35mill and no penalty. The whole punishment looks shady when you add all the teams who reworked contracts and saved money but only the two teams who are in the same division as the owner who levied the punishment gets punished?

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=Ruhskins;903904]Well no word yet on whether the Skins will get any extra picks :([/quote]

This whole issue aside should we be getting any extra picks for anyone we lost?

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=SBXVII;903908]This whole issue aside should we be getting any extra picks for anyone we lost?[/quote]

I would love some, but I doubt we'll get any. On a slightly related note, I think the NFL will be distributing compensatory picks at this meeting (correct me if I'm wrong, anyone). So maybe, you can pretend that the second to last pick in the seventh round that we receive this year is compensation for the league taking away our $36 million...

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=Ruhskins;903900]I still don't understand how the Bears dumping almost $35 mil of Pepper's salary is not seen as a competitive advantage.[/quote]

I looked into it more, his charged salary for that year was around 20 million, and the year before with Carolina he earned 19 million, so it wasn't much of a change

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=SKINSnCANES;903915]I looked into it more, his charged salary for that year was around 20 million, and the year before with Carolina he earned 19 million, so it wasn't much of a change[/quote]

That's still a 15 million dollar difference. If a player had a 20 mil cap hit in 2010 and a 5 mil cap hit in 2011, wouldn't you be saying they did the same thing we did? A 15 million dollar difference is still big. I think the reason we got punished and the Bears didn't was because John Mara doesn't give a crap about the Bears and we are his division rivals.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=mooby;903918]That's still a 15 million dollar difference. If a player had a 20 mil cap hit in 2010 and a 5 mil cap hit in 2011, wouldn't you be saying they did the same thing we did? A 15 million dollar difference is still big. I think the reason we got punished and the Bears didn't was because John Mara doesn't give a crap about the Bears and we are his division rivals.[/quote]

They hammered Dallas for $10 mill.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

This may have been already provided but I love the comments after the article.....

[url=http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1119324-cowboys-and-redskins-knew-they-would-be-punishedso-why-the-fuss]Cowboys and Redskins Knew They Would Be Punished...So Why the Fuss? | Bleacher Report[/url]

[QUOTE]When did uncapped means spend only as much money as everyone else is spending and don't use any business sense.

You didn't mention 3 things.

First. John Mara is the owner of the Giants, but you forget to mention that he also happens to be the chairman of the Management Council Executive Committee/Labor for the NFL. John became chairman on October 20th 2011. This department was the one that imposed the fines on two NFC East teams.

In 2011 the redskins where 15.7 million under the cap according to thehogs.net. The redskins salary was only 11.7 million more dollars in 2010 then the cowboys, except the redskins where then fined 26 million more then the Cowboys.

Their was never an agreement not to front load salaries. You can't go back and change the rules, and it seems wickedly suspicious that the owner of the Giants got to fine 2 of the teams in his division and no one else in the NFL. The contracts were approved my the NFLs front office during 2010 and they had a chance to say no then.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]This is truly one of the most absurd articles I've ever seen written. The author (or NFL) can't point to any rule that was violated, but concludes that the NFL has some authority to mete out punishment anyway?

A simple example will clearly expose the folly of this all: What if you're submitting a permit to your City to perform renovation work and the City states that there'll be "consequences" for performing those renovations, despite the fact that they can't point to any law you're breaking? You then submit the permit anyways, the City approves it, and you perform the work. Later, the City then cites you for the renovations you performed and assesses punishment on grounds that "we gave your fair warning."

Huh? Unless the City or the NFL had some basis to issue the warning in the first place, the fact that they "warned" the Redskins is garbage. Even if they did have the authority to issue the warning, the fact that NFL (or City in the example) APPROVED the contracts / permit gives rise to what lawyers call estoppel and/or waiver.

What's at issue here is something pretty basic: it's called the "rule of law." If you're not violating something when performing a particular act, you can't be prosecuted for the act itself. How this author concludes an differently is absolutely mind-boggling.

And, as for full disclosure, I'm a die-hard Redskins fan. I'm (understandably) pissed to no end, and am frankly disappointed that the Redskins have resorted to some vanilla means (i.e., arbitration) to strike back at the NFL and people like Mara. Perhaps there are some issues with league politics and such, but if I were them, I'd be in federal court, seeking a TRO/preliminary injunction, and suing for a number of things, including antitrust liability. (Also for full disclosure, I'm a labor lawyer that deals a lot with labor-antitrust issues like these, and would love to help out the Redskins if they pursue this course of action.)
[/QUOTE]

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

Aaron Nagler recently joined BR. How anyone employs him is beyond me. His opinions are so devoid of reason it's sad. He and I have had a few online encounters

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=SKINSnCANES;903915]I looked into it more, his charged salary for that year was around 20 million, and the year before with Carolina he earned 19 million, so it wasn't much of a change[/quote]

But according to that graphic, the Bears took a 34.9 million cap hit that year and this is the highest compared to the rest of the years in the contract. I am not well versed in cap details, but I see this as an unfair competitive advantage, since the Bears were able to sign one of the top DEs in the league and take a 35 million cap hit during the uncapped season.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=SBXVII;903921]This may have been already provided but I love the comments after the article.....

[url=http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1119324-cowboys-and-redskins-knew-they-would-be-punishedso-why-the-fuss]Cowboys and Redskins Knew They Would Be Punished...So Why the Fuss? | Bleacher Report[/url][/quote]

I like the poll on that page, out of about 900 respondents, it's running 85% against the league. I know it's unscientific, and probably most reading the article are Skins/cowboys fans(my assumption), but still 85%...

[QUOTE=SBXVII;903919]They hammered Dallas for $10 mill.[/QUOTE]

Point? We both got hammered because we're both division rivals. I was just focusing on the Redskins.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

Has anyone heard of a timeline of if/when something will come of this issue? Or is it all just hearsay at this point that anything is going to happen?

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

There seems to be no timeline...

[url=http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/redskins-watch/2012/mar/26/nfl-no-date-set-redskins-cowboys-arbitration-heari/]NFL: No date set for Redskins, Cowboys arbitration hearing - Washington Times[/url]

Also, no compensatory picks for us...looks like Mara is at it again (I'm halfway kidding).

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=Ruhskins;903946]There seems to be no timeline...

[url=http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/redskins-watch/2012/mar/26/nfl-no-date-set-redskins-cowboys-arbitration-heari/]NFL: No date set for Redskins, Cowboys arbitration hearing - Washington Times[/url]

Also, no compensatory picks for us...looks like Mara is at it again (I'm halfway kidding).[/quote]

I thought some compensatory picks were based on pure suckage? And not just the number of FAs that left your team the previous season...

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[I]daniel kaplan ‏
Told NFL owners by hand vote this morning affirmed salary cap sanctions on redskins and cowboys, who were not in room.[/I]

and as Rich Campbell correctly points out

[I]Rich Campbell ‏
The owner's have a competitive incentive to approve any cap sanction against the Redskins and Cowboys. Why wouldn't they affirm it?[/I]

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=GreekSkin;903956][I]daniel kaplan ‏
Told NFL owners by hand vote this morning affirmed salary cap sanctions on redskins and cowboys, who were not in room.[/I]

and as Rich Campbell correctly points out

[I]Rich Campbell ‏
The owner's have a competitive incentive to approve any cap sanction against the Redskins and Cowboys. Why wouldn't they affirm it?[/I][/quote]

Rich Campbell ‏ @Rich_Campbell
Ha. Well put. RT @PSUScott: @Rich_Campbell [B]30 Wolves and 2 Sheep arguing over whats for dinner[/B]

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

Just because the Cowboys and Redskins start firing bullets at the NFL doesn't neccessarily mean they will win or even get the sactions reduced because the NFL has bigger guns and more ammo.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=redskinsman18;903982]Just because the Cowboys and Redskins start firing bullets at the NFL doesn't neccessarily mean they will win or even get the sactions reduced [B]because the NFL has bigger guns and more ammo.[/B][/quote]

I beg to differ on that. Snyder and Jones combined could probably sue the NFL until they were like, "No mas!"

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

1st amendment Rights
John Mara uses well

I hope the owners
All burn in cap hell.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

this isn't going to end well for the nfl.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

If the NFL approved these contract, how can they come back 2 years later and say they were illegal?

[QUOTE]If the NFL approved these contract, how can they come back 2 years later and say they were illegal?[/QUOTE]
I don't agree but it sounds like the nfl's argument is that any one contract was not illegal, BUT when taken in the totality of transactions by the team it showed an intent to engage in anticompetitve practices.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;904033]I don't agree but it sounds like the nfl's argument is that any one contract was not illegal, BUT when taken in the totality of transactions by the team it showed an intent to engage in anticompetitve practices.[/quote]

Well, yeah. Okay. I still say "So what"? Anti-competitive practices? Define please - and in your definition you are prohibited from using the words "salary cap" as there was no such thing in existence in 2010 nor was there any guarrantee that it would ever again exist.

blah blah blah ... NFL is simply trying to throw crap against the wall hoping something, anything will stick.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;904033]I don't agree but it sounds like the nfl's argument is that any one contract was not illegal, BUT when taken in the totality of transactions by the team it showed an intent to engage in anticompetitve practices.[/quote]

There were two they took issue with: haynesworth and hall. Either one of the transactions was substantial enough to throw off red flags to the NFL. I'm sorry, but if that's the NFL's defense, they are ****ed.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

So two rights do make a wrong???? That would make the opposite true by that reasoning and boy do my parents have some explaining to do now.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=mooby;903938]Point? We both got hammered because we're both division rivals. I was just focusing on the Redskins.[/quote]

You pointed out the $15 mill from one team and $20 mill from another team. All I was pointing out was Dallas only gained $10 mill and that the punishments are not making sense. Kinda what you were saying or so I thought.

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;904037]Well, yeah. Okay. I still say "So what"? Anti-competitive practices? Define please - and in your definition you are prohibited from using the words "salary cap" as there was no such thing in existence in 2010 nor was there any guarrantee that it would ever again exist.

blah blah blah ... NFL is simply trying to throw crap against the wall hoping something, anything will stick.[/QUOTE]

Anti competitve- incurring "those charges" in a current year when"those charges" are not accounted for in order to avoid "those charges" in a future year when they may be applied to "that thing".

Hey I didn't use the words salary cap or cap hit.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=redskinsman18;903982]Just because the Cowboys and Redskins start firing bullets at the NFL doesn't neccessarily mean they will win or even get the sactions reduced because the NFL has bigger guns and more ammo.[/quote]

We shall see. This is all a game of cat and mouse. Their betting the two owners will flinch first and buckle because all the other owners agreed with the punishment. So let's let it go to arbitration. Almost every other person can see that the AGREEMENT was technically illegal or against the law. It's just a shame 30 owners. Ant get off their high horse long enough to see or admit they broke the law. They think because they have have an agreement with the NFPLA they are safe. Well wake up owners cause you might get a rude awakening when it's pointed out no matter what the agreement you broke the law and might void the whole new CBA and be forced to pay hundreds of millions of dollars like another league was forced to do.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

Two questions:

1) Would we have any options if we lost this arbitration case? I suppose we could still go "nuclear" and sue the NFL for collusion, but it wouldn't make any sense to burn our own house down...

2) If we win, and piss off the NFL... What can they do to get back at us? Open up the bounty cases? I feel like this whole thing is like a kid calling the cops after his father beat him. The cops will go away, but the kid is stuck with the father for a lifetime..

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=SBXVII;904062]You pointed out the $15 mill from one team and $20 mill from another team. All I was pointing out was Dallas only gained $10 mill and that the punishments are not making sense. Kinda what you were saying or so I thought.[/quote]

Oh, ok. It's all good then.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=ethat001;904079]Two questions:

1) Would we have any options if we lost this arbitration case? I suppose we could still go "nuclear" and sue the NFL for collusion, but it wouldn't make any sense to burn our own house down...
[/quote]
I believe it has been reported that we filed a grievance based on the procedural aspects of the situation. I assume to maintain the right to pursue further avenues as need be based on the outcome of this procedural filing.
[quote]
2) If we win, and piss off the NFL... What can they do to get back at us? Open up the bounty cases? I feel like this whole thing is like a kid calling the cops after his father beat him. The cops will go away, but the kid is stuck with the father for a lifetime..[/quote]
$1000000 question

The league has us hooked two ways as I mentioned earlier when others were arguing we were all cleared in the bounty case: [url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/post/roger-goodell-says-bounty-investigation-of-redskins-is-not-over/2012/03/26/gIQAVpIvcS_blog.html[/url]

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

If they reopen the bounty case against us, how far are they going to go back? Buffalo?

I mean seriously when is there a statue of limitations? There has to be sketchy stuff that's been going on for years. If you start reaching that far back, you're going to open a HUGE can of worms.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;904033]I don't agree but it sounds like the nfl's argument is that any one contract was not illegal, BUT when taken in the totality of transactions by the team it showed an intent to engage in anticompetitve practices.[/quote]


...but Julius Pepper's 30+ million salary for 2010 was completely legit?...lol



No.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;904181]If they reopen the bounty case against us, how far are they going to go back? Buffalo?

I mean seriously when is there a statue of limitations? There has to be sketchy stuff that's been going on for years. If you start reaching that far back, you're going to open a HUGE can of worms.[/quote]


All Goodell needs to do is send the message to the NFL that he did with his punishment with the Saints organization. That's all he needs to do. From that point, what's done is done. You have to have faith that the punishment is a loud and clear enough message to the other teams. From there, move on.

Getting back to the cap penalties, I'm not surprised the other 30 teams voted in favor of the sanctions. Why wouldn't they? They are getting a competitive edge in doing so. I have no idea what's going to happen, but I think things are going to get real ugly, real soon between the Redskins, Cowboys, and the NFL.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=NC_Skins;904183]...but Julius Pepper's 30+ million salary for 2010 was completely legit?...lol



No.[/quote]

My understanding is that the figures being put out on Peppers is wrong, and that ultimately, his cap hit was like 20M each year including the uncapped year.


Regardless, the NFL is arguing pattern of behavior, not individual contract status. It's still a bogus claim, but it may be harder to disprove than simply saying well you approved them and that's that.