Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=skinsguy;1046172]LOL! That's not how it works Tripp. Just because a player isn't drafted in the first round doesn't mean he is passed up nor does it mean he can't be a game changer. By that logic, Joe Montana would not have been a game changer and most certainly Tom Brady would definitely not have been a game changer. While not having a first round pick sucks, it's not the end of the world. There is plenty of value in the lower rounds. In fact, that is where Bobby Beathard earned most of his paycheck was those mid to late round draft picks for the Redskins. The team can still bring in quality players in the second round and on, and they still have a chance of picking up a game changer. In fact, I tend to have more faith in 2nd rounders and on than I do first round picks.[/quote]Sigh.

Joe Montana was drafted in 1979. Tom Brady was drafted in 2000. Bobby Beathard retired 15 years ago. Probably not the best examples of how the draft works today.

Anyway, the point isn't who you could get, but who you are likely to get.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;1046170]I don't see how the offensive line is "years away". Don't we lead the league in rushing since the beginning of last year? A lot of that has to do with RG3 last year, but the O Line definitely had something to do with Alfred Morris being as successful as he has been. The right side needs to be upgraded, no doubt, but to say years away is a big stretch in my opinion.

Additionally with respect to the draft, you find very few game changers after the top 8 or so in the draft - at least not in their rookie seasons. There is a difference between game changers and impact players, which I think is a more reasonable description of what you will find in the latter part of round 1 through round 3. I just don't think there is a lot of separation in talent there.

With free agency (that we will be able to participate in this year), the draft picks we have, and allowing this offense to have a complete offseason together, I am confident that this team will take a huge step forward next year.[/quote]If you have to change four starters, and we have to change at least three, it's going to take a while to get the right guys on the team. Quality tackles don't come available in free agency very often. Good guards can be found, but they tend to be pretty expensive. Centers are cheaper and easier to find, like for example we can slide Kory over if we thing he's lacking athleticism to play left guard. But we need lots of pieces and we're limited in our resources.

If we're picking in the second round and a receiver we really like is available as well as a starting quality RT, who do you take? The issue of course is not what you prefer, but the reason you are a year away is because you need both and can only take one.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

Our pick in the second round will still be one of the top 40 players in the draft. Based on 5 positions of dyer need we should find a solid player with our first pick. Go ahead and tier the draft as the first 15 picks can be extremely impactful. Then the next 35 picks should be relatively close. 3rd Round where you see the seperation of talent imo.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

Yeah, the pick is still really important, and a lot of good players will be left in the top 40. My point was if you're evaluating players and setting your board attempting to get one of the draft's best players outside of the top 35, you're overcomplicating it. There's only a handful of those guys in the draft.

If a really good receiver prospect or nimble offensive tackle is available when the Redskins pick, you take him, and address the other need some other way in the short term.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;1046174]If you have to change four starters, and we have to change at least three, it's going to take a while to get the right guys on the team. Quality tackles don't come available in free agency very often. Good guards can be found, but they tend to be pretty expensive. Centers are cheaper and easier to find, like for example we can slide Kory over if we thing he's lacking athleticism to play left guard. But we need lots of pieces and we're limited in our resources.

If we're picking in the second round and a receiver we really like is available as well as a starting quality RT, who do you take? The issue of course is not what you prefer, but the reason you are a year away is because you need both and can only take one.[/quote]

I guess that depends on what you are saying we are a year away from. I mean nobody has five all stars on the O-line. I'm just talking about serviceable players that will open lanes for Morris and company, and give RG time to get through his progressions - the only way he will be able to improve as a passer. I think with some of the pieces we already have and some of the pieces we can likely pick up in FA and the draft, we can drastically improve the O-line which will make the whole offense much better.

And I would take the RT providing we hadn't upgraded hat position already in free agency.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

Griffin can help himself out a lot too by getting the ball out quicker. That will come as he becomes more comfortable working from the pocket.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;1046177]I guess that depends on what you are saying we are a year away from. I mean nobody has five all stars on the O-line. I'm just talking about serviceable players that will open lanes for Morris and company, and give RG time to get through his progressions - the only way he will be able to improve as a passer. I think with some of the pieces we already have and some of the pieces we can likely pick up in FA and the draft, we can drastically improve the O-line which will make the whole offense much better.

And I would take the RT providing we hadn't upgraded hat position already in free agency.[/quote]I think the line right now is full of those serviceable players. Frankly, if you wanted to add another receiver that can get behind a defense, improve special teams performance so we don't have the worst starting field position in the NFL, and put a defense on the field that can win games 13-10, then this OL group is adequate. So they're already there.

But an improved line would allow Griffin to start ripping defenses apart from the pocket with room to step up? That would make this offense fun to watch. And that will take some time, but it's an investment worth making, IMO.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[url=http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/59361/analyzing-the-redskins-young-linemen]Analyzing the Redskins young linemen - NFC East Blog - ESPN[/url]

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=Bucket;1046158]Lots of good things about this current team. Collinsworth said it best. We are only a few vital pieces away and a healthy RG3. My opinion though. Wont force it down anyone's throat[/quote]

I don't see a lot of good things at all. Morris, Garçon, Williams and Hall are really the only players that have consistently show up week in week out this year. Literally, everywhere else is question marks. Right now, I think Jacksonville is better than we are.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

It's kind of funny that people complained that Mike and Kyle wouldn't adjust their offense to Griffin's strengths, but that's just what they did last year

That said, while I think the RO option is an important element of the offense, if RG3 isn't healthy/effective/confident/whatever enough to run it right now they should dial back...for now

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1046192]I don't see a lot of good things at all. Morris, Garçon, Williams and Hall are really the only players that have consistently show up week in week out this year. Literally, everywhere else is question marks. Right now, I think Jacksonville is better than we are.[/quote]

Even Morris, Garcon, and Williams have done poorly at times, but they have definetaly been the 4 best players on the Skins this year.
I think Jacksonville could beat the Skins, they have won 3 out of the 4 past games and are up by 14 on the Texans.

I think the only team the Skins could beat right now are the Texans.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;1046177]I guess that depends on what you are saying we are a year away from. I mean nobody has five all stars on the O-line. I'm just talking about serviceable players that will open lanes for Morris and company, and give RG time to get through his progressions - the only way he will be able to improve as a passer. I think with some of the pieces we already have and some of the pieces we can likely pick up in FA and the draft, we can drastically improve the O-line which will make the whole offense much better.

And I would take the RT providing we hadn't upgraded hat position already in free agency.[/quote]

Wasn't Morris 92 yards away from being the league leader in rushing just a few games ago? Before Darrel Young went down? And while pass pro is far from perfect, statue-esque QBs across the league routinely buy more time in the pocket while keeping their eyes downfield.

Glass half full way to look at the current situation is to hope RG3 is becoming better at moving around in the pocket. With injuries along the o-line being a common occurrence for most teams, every QB will eventually have to learn to be effective even when 5 seconds in the pocket can't be guaranteed on every pass play.

The Packers and Steelers were still good in years when they couldn't protect Aaron Rodgers and Big Ben worth a damn. There are lots of QBs that can be successful under ideal circumstances, but who goes an entire career where everything around them is perfect?

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;1046173]Sigh.

Joe Montana was drafted in 1979. Tom Brady was drafted in 2000. Bobby Beathard retired 15 years ago. Probably not the best examples of how the draft works today.

Anyway, the point isn't who you could get, but who you are likely to get.[/quote]

How about Russell Wilson in the 3rd? Where was Richard Sherman drafted? Victor Cruz? Arian Foster? Recent enough? How about that honey badger fella. How's he doing? Or that 1991 Mazda dude taken in the 6th?

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;1046174]If you have to change four starters, and we have to change at least three, it's going to take a while to get the right guys on the team. Quality tackles don't come available in free agency very often. Good guards can be found, but they tend to be pretty expensive. Centers are cheaper and easier to find, like for example we can slide Kory over if we thing he's lacking athleticism to play left guard. But we need lots of pieces and we're limited in our resources.

If we're picking in the second round and a receiver we really like is available as well as a starting quality RT, who do you take? The issue of course is not what you prefer, but the reason you are a year away is because you need both and can only take one.[/quote]

Depends on what you can address in free agency or via young guys already on the roster. Maybe you take the Lineman, although Shanny's MO is to take linemen in the later rounds, and hope that with a full off-season RG3 stops wildly over throwing open receivers and learns to throw with anticipation. It's entirely plausible. Teams get significantly better or worse all the time without major changes in personnel.

This years examples - skins, panthers, falcons, texans and to a lesser extent maybe, the lions. It's why the NFL went 16 years in a row with at least 5 new teams in the playoffs each year.

And even if we did have the right talent, injuries can change everything. The NFL is totally unpredictable.

Getting 2012 production from RG3 is worth 4-5 wins alone.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

I would be willing to make a wager that are F/A signings will look something like , 2 OL , 1 DL , 1- 2 DB's and either a WR or LB .

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=budw38;1046214]I would be willing to make a wager that are F/A signings will look something like , 2 OL , 1 DL , 1- 2 DB's and either a WR or LB .[/quote]

Redskins will be the ultimate Madden Team.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=Bucket;1046150]To be honest. Nothing to help Shanahan because the record is what it is. Although, Im not sure of any coach that would of been very successful in the past 3-4 years here.[/quote]

me neither..

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

It not just about acquiring talent, but we need to able to develop them. teach them how to be successful in the NFL

[QUOTE=donofriose;1046215]Redskins will be the ultimate Madden Team.[/QUOTE]

What does that mean?

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=punch it in;1046254]What does that mean?[/quote]

Gonna take a stab and guess that he means like... During FA in Madden you just kinda grab up anyone. Best players you can get without thinking. Kinda like how Madden when Ray Lewis retires and then comes out of retirement (I dunno why they do that in Madden. Ray's done) I always snatch him up and give London Fletcher the boot.

There's only room for one old man on this team Redskins Madden team, London.

[QUOTE=DynamiteRave;1046259]Gonna take a stab and guess that he means like... During FA in Madden you just kinda grab up anyone. Best players you can get without thinking. Kinda like how Madden when Ray Lewis retires and then comes out of retirement (I dunno why they do that in Madden. Ray's done) I always snatch him up and give London Fletcher the boot.

There's only room for one old man on this team Redskins Madden team, London.[/QUOTE]

Wouldnt upgrading our lines be a smart move now that we have capspace back and no first round pick though? I think if we snatched up three or four aged skill players with big names that we would see Madden references. I think what Bud38 suggested seems like a pretty logical thing to do?

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=budw38;1046214]I would be willing to make a wager that are F/A signings will look something like , 2 OL , 1 DL , 1- 2 DB's and either a WR or LB .[/quote]

I think just signing two offensive line starting caliber players (could be a long shot, but it'd be great if we can get a starting G and RT) and a starting caliber ILB would be huge.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=punch it in;1046261]Wouldnt upgrading our lines be a smart move now that we have capspace back and no first round pick though? I think if we snatched up three or four aged skill players with big names that we would see Madden references. I think what Bud38 suggested seems like a pretty logical thing to do?[/quote]

I was just using the Lewis thing as an example. But playing with FA and signing a ton of people is a Madden move. :P

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;1046266]I think just signing two offensive line starting caliber players (could be a long shot, but it'd be great if we can get a starting G and RT) and a starting caliber ILB would be huge.[/quote]

Yes , considering how bad our OL is , upgrades would not be to hard to find . Maybe not pro bowlers , we just need better talent . We will also save/have $ because of losing the contracts of , Morgan , Moss , Chester , Carriker , Fletcher , Davis . Im just guessing they will not be back , or have to take a reduction in pay .

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=punch it in;1046261]Wouldnt upgrading our lines be a smart move now that we have capspace back and no first round pick though? I think if we snatched up three or four aged skill players with big names that we would see Madden references. I think what Bud38 suggested seems like a pretty logical thing to do?[/quote]

You know I am not sure which is the best way to go. If you look at the statistics the better QBs in the league tend to be out of the top ten in sacks (Brady, Roethlisburger, Newton (and Flacco if you want to count him) are right around RG3 in terms of being sacked and in the top 10). On the other hand if you don't have targets there is only so much an o-line can do. Some of that is on RG3 having to read and release quicker and not miss targets too.

[QUOTE=BaltimoreSkins;1046283]You know I am not sure which is the best way to go. If you look at the statistics the better QBs in the league tend to be out of the top ten in sacks (Brady, Roethlisburger, Newton (and Flacco if you want to count him) are right around RG3 in terms of being sacked and in the top 10). On the other hand if you don't have targets there is only so much an o-line can do. Some of that is on RG3 having to read and release quicker and not miss targets too.[/QUOTE]

Yeah upgrades anywhere are a help. Budw38 does mention a wr - which I think we all agree on. PG, Hank, and another in free agency/draft is a necessity. I dont know how much you can read into those stats. I mean A team might give up 9 sacks in one game and 7 in another when there were injuries or something going on. Ran into a buzz saw defense? The rest of the year that oline might have held its own. I dont watch those other teams on a weekly basis, but I wAtch the Skins and the entire right side of our line needs replacing. Griff is still elusive enough to turn some would be sacks into a 2 yard gain, and Almos beast mode will also make our oline look better on the stat page. I know that if Griff is going to transition into more of a pocket passer there is no way around an upgrade on our line.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

^Last year our sacks went way down due to the style of offense and his mobility. This year they are back up for the same reasons. You would have to delve deeper into those stats but I am assuming some of the top tier QBs run a more pass oriented offense than we do giving up far less sacks per a drop back than we do.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=BaltimoreSkins;1046315]^Last year our sacks went way down due to the style of offense and his mobility. This year they are back up for the same reasons. You would have to delve deeper into those stats but I am assuming some of the top tier QBs run a more pass oriented offense than we do giving up far less sacks per a drop back than we do.[/quote]

Our offensive line play much better last year. I'm sure a lot of that was RG3, but for example Chester had a solid year last year. This year not so much.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;1046173]Sigh.

Joe Montana was drafted in 1979. Tom Brady was drafted in 2000. Bobby Beathard retired 15 years ago. Probably not the best examples of how the draft works today.

Anyway, the point isn't who you could get, but who you are likely to get.[/quote]

Doesn't matter if Joe Montana was drafted in '79 or 2009, it doesn't change the fact that in every year, there's almost always players drafted in later rounds that wind up having great NFL careers, if not Hall of Fame careers. This will continue to be true as long as the NFL exists.

You seem to think that teams who do not have a round one pick are severely handicapped and have to choose from a list of players who were passed up by other teams. Simply not the case. While some players occasionally drop out of the first round, most players go in the rounds that they were projected to be drafted in. That doesn't mean that round one picks live up to that potential, as well as it doesn't mean later round picks are left overs. My simple point - which is why I mentioned Bobby Beathard - is that finding great players for great value is where general managers make their money. That is often where championships are earned. And that will always be the case as long as the NFL exists.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=skinsguy;1046330]Doesn't matter if Joe Montana was drafted in '79 or 2009, it doesn't change the fact that in every year, there's almost always players drafted in later rounds that wind up having great NFL careers, if not Hall of Fame careers. This will continue to be true as long as the NFL exists.

You seem to think that teams who do not have a round one pick are severely handicapped and have to choose from a list of players who were passed up by other teams. Simply not the case. While some players occasionally drop out of the first round, most players go in the rounds that they were projected to be drafted in. That doesn't mean that round one picks live up to that potential, as well as it doesn't mean later round picks are left overs. My simple point - which is why I mentioned Bobby Beathard - is that [B]finding great players for great value is where general managers make their money[/B]. That is often where championships are earned. And that will always be the case as long as the NFL exists.[/quote]And for most of the Snyder era, we have traded draft picks away like cheap confetti. While I'm still in favor of the Griffin trade, here are a few stinkers that come to mind:

2004: Trading Champ Bailey [B]AND a #2[/B] to Denver for Portis. Denver should have been giving us their #2 given the value of a shutdown CB.
2004: Trading a #3 for Mark Brunnell (he was about to get cut by Jax)
2006: Trading a #3 and #4 for Brandon Lloyd
2006: Trading a 2007 #3 and #4 for T.J. Duckett
2009: Trading a #2 for Jason Taylor
2010: Trading a #2 for McNabb
2010: Trading a #3 for Jammal Brown

I probably missed some. There are good players to be found in rounds 2 thru 4, so my point is that we consistently traded away our best resource for finding value-priced talent and quality depth. This has been an ongoing organizational FAIL for years. God forbid if Griffin doesn't develop into a franchise QB in the next couple years since he cost three #1 picks and a #2.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=SouperMeister;1046345]And for most of the Snyder era, we have traded draft picks away like cheap confetti. While I'm still in favor of the Griffin trade, here are a few stinkers that come to mind:

2004: Trading Champ Bailey [B]AND a #2[/B] to Denver for Portis. Denver should have been giving us their #2 given the value of a shutdown CB.
2004: Trading a #3 for Mark Brunnell (he was about to get cut by Jax)
2006: Trading a #3 and #4 for Brandon Lloyd
2006: Trading a 2007 #3 and #4 for T.J. Duckett
2009: Trading a #2 for Jason Taylor
2010: Trading a #2 for McNabb
2010: Trading a #3 for Jammal Brown

I probably missed some. There are good players to be found in rounds 2 thru 4, so my point is that we consistently traded away our best resource for finding value-priced talent and quality depth. This has been an ongoing organizational FAIL for years. God forbid if Griffin doesn't develop into a franchise QB in the next couple years since he cost three #1 picks and a #2.[/quote]

We also gave up a # 1 , 2 & 4 for JC and a #2 and #6 for Rocky M. ..... Thank god Vinny is gone . And the 3 #2's for the three amigo's :(

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

Tj duckett what's just horribly awful. I mean maybe worst all time trades in nfl history area

[QUOTE=Chico23231;1046355]Tj duckett what's just horribly awful. I mean maybe worst all time trades in nfl history area[/QUOTE]

Yeah that and the Bailey trade , the fact that it wasn't straight up is beyond me, o also the JT trade

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=budw38;1046352]We also gave up a # 1 , 2 & 4 for JC and a #2 and #6 for Rocky M. ..... Thank god Vinny is gone . And the 3 #2's for the three amigo's :([/quote]

I got drilled for it then and will probably get drilled for it now but 10 of those draft picks (Portis, Brunell, Duckett, Lloyd, Campbell, McIntosh trades) were all courtesy of Joe Gibbs 2.0. I said it then and I'll say it now, his stint set this franchise back 6-8 yrs. Vinny isn't without blame but Gibbs was making the key decisions.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1046356]Yeah that and the Bailey trade , the fact that it wasn't straight up is beyond me, o also the JT trade[/quote]The Taylor trade was a total knee-jerk reaction by Snyderatto the day that Phillip Daniels had a season ending knee injury on the first day of training camp.

[QUOTE=SouperMeister;1046359]The Taylor trade was a total knee-jerk reaction by Snyderatto the day that Phillip Daniels had a season ending knee injury on the first day of training camp.[/QUOTE]

Yep and JT played 1 yr w us I believe and had like 5 sacks

[QUOTE=Paintrain;1046358]I got drilled for it then and will probably get drilled for it now but 10 of those draft picks (Portis, Brunell, Duckett, Lloyd, Campbell, McIntosh trades) were all courtesy of Joe Gibbs 2.0. I said it then and I'll say it now, his stint set this franchise back 6-8 yrs. Vinny isn't without blame but Gibbs was making the key decisions.[/QUOTE]

He was far removed from football, completely immersed in nascar. That is where he was spending his Sundays, and not watching football.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1046356]Yeah that and the Bailey trade , the fact that it wasn't straight up is beyond me, o also the JT trade[/quote]Champ Bailey wasn't staying in DC no matter what, allegedly for personal reasons. Gibbs got a steal giving Bailey and a 2nd rounder for Portis, who broke the Redskins single season rushing record, and IMO carried the Skins a lot more than Bailey and Tatum Bell did the Broncos.

[QUOTE=HailGreen28;1046459]Champ Bailey wasn't staying in DC no matter what, allegedly for personal reasons. Gibbs got a steal giving Bailey and a 2nd rounder for Portis, who broke the Redskins single season rushing record, and IMO carried the Skins a lot more than Bailey and Tatum Bell did the Broncos.[/QUOTE]

Ummmm..... A shut down corner is had to find. I think denver got the better deal. I love portis but that trade should have been strait up if anything.

Re: Do You Unequivocally Believe RG3 Is Our Franchise QB?
 

[quote=punch it in;1046463]Ummmm..... A shut down corner is had to find. I think denver got the better deal. I love portis but that trade should have been strait up if anything.[/quote]

But everyone knows you can't win the Super Bowl without a dominant Running Back. Willie Parker, Joseph Addai, the warm bodies the Saints and Packers had. #notreally

Love Gibbs, but he was living in the past trying to build a team around the RB. That position should NEVER be the highest paid on the Offense/team . Young and cheap is the way to go.