Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

I think it will be interesting to see who gets what between Jimmy and Kirk. While you know what you get with Kirk because of the large sample, you also pretty much know he has a ceiling of a good, not great somewhere around the 10th best QB in the NFL. Jimmy from what he shows so far has a very high ceiling. I must admit I have only seen a couple of his 7 games, but he doesn't seem to have the noticeable flaws that the recent flash in the pans like Kap and RG3 did.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=WillH;1186902]San Fran just gave up a 2nd for Garoppolo, I don't understand why you're so sure no-one would do the same for Kirk.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk[/quote]

Because New England was smart about managing their leverage. They recognized that their last chance to trade Jimmy G was at the trade deadline. If he was still a Patriot at the end of the season, their only route for attempting to trade him would have been to apply a tag. But that would have been a huge risk, because what if he signed the deal?

Basically they foresaw the situation we're now in with Cousins, and they avoided it by getting what they could when they had their last chance.

But to be fair, they could afford to trade him midseason too, since Brady was their starter. We didn't have that luxury with Cousins, he's our starter.

Now though, with Cousins a pending free agent, teams know they don't have to trade a 2nd rounder for him. Why? War game it with me:

- If you transition tag him for $28M, you don't actually give yourself any leverage. All it takes is for Cousins to sign an offer sheet with a team, then your only threat to retain him is to match it. And if we haven't been serious about paying $27M per season yet, why would we match one that has that (or more)? Our position is as transparent as can be - teams will know that all they have to do is structure a contract high enough, and we won't match.

- If you franchise tag him for $34M then you maintain leverage. You can give him permission to work out a deal with other teams, sure. But we've been down this road, you know what he'll do. He'll sign it and play under the tag for $34M. Maybe, as you say, he'll be more interested in getting settled long term and thus want to work a deal to get away. But can you risk that? Because remember, until a trade is struck, he sits there occupying $34M in cap space, in March, at the beginning of free agency when you could really use the cap space to do other things. So you'd be entering free agency with a great deal of uncertainty at QB, unable to make any long term plans, unable to go out to sign defensive upgrades, and possibly missing out on the other QB options while you wait for the Cousins situation to resolve itself.

It's not going to happen. The Redskins know all the leverage sits with Cousins, and until the situation resolves itself they have no ability to form a long term plan. I'd submit you can't tag him, knowing there's a distinct possibility he'll sign and play for $34M. If you do, you're risking a great deal just to try to acquire a bit more than what you'd get if you just let him walk (a 3rd rounder).

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

So the Redskins' course of action is simple. By the end of February, make your last best and final offer. If he signs, or at least finally negotiates with you, then great. If it's still not good enough to get him to sign, mentally consider him gone. Refusal to negotiate upon presentation of a last best and final offer would be a surefire signal that he doesn't want to be a Redskin.

So let him go, and set about using your $55M in cap space to improve this team at several spots.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=Schneed10;1186925]Because New England was smart about managing their leverage. They recognized that their last chance to trade Jimmy G was at the trade deadline. If he was still a Patriot at the end of the season, their only route for attempting to trade him would have been to apply a tag. But that would have been a huge risk, because what if he signed the deal?

Basically they foresaw the situation we're now in with Cousins, and they avoided it by getting what they could when they had their last chance.

But to be fair, they could afford to trade him midseason too, since Brady was their starter. We didn't have that luxury with Cousins, he's our starter.

Now though, with Cousins a pending free agent, teams know they don't have to trade a 2nd rounder for him. Why? War game it with me:

- If you transition tag him for $28M, you don't actually give yourself any leverage. All it takes is for Cousins to sign an offer sheet with a team, then your only threat to retain him is to match it. And if we haven't been serious about paying $27M per season yet, why would we match one that has that (or more)? Our position is as transparent as can be - teams will know that all they have to do is structure a contract high enough, and we won't match.

- If you franchise tag him for $34M then you maintain leverage. You can give him permission to work out a deal with other teams, sure. [B]But we've been down this road, you know what he'll do. He'll sign it and play under the tag for $34M. [/B] Maybe, as you say, he'll be more interested in getting settled long term and thus want to work a deal to get away. But can you risk that? Because remember, until a trade is struck, he sits there occupying $34M in cap space, in March, at the beginning of free agency when you could really use the cap space to do other things. So you'd be entering free agency with a great deal of uncertainty at QB, unable to make any long term plans, unable to go out to sign defensive upgrades, and possibly missing out on the other QB options while you wait for the Cousins situation to resolve itself.

It's not going to happen. The Redskins know all the leverage sits with Cousins, and until the situation resolves itself they have no ability to form a long term plan. I'd submit you can't tag him, knowing there's a distinct possibility he'll sign and play for $34M. If you do, you're risking a great deal just to try to acquire a bit more than what you'd get if you just let him walk (a 3rd rounder).[/quote]

This is not an absolute. We are on the outside looking in...I think a reasonable front office put in a similar situation would could effectively get a franchise tag trade done. The major issue we are facing with this approach is not Cousins, its our Front office folks with a history record of fucking up with QB transactions. I think its much tougher thing to pull off just based on our decision makers. Very little trust there.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=Chico23231;1186927]This is not an absolute. We are on the outside looking in...[B]I think a reasonable front office put in a similar situation would could effectively get a franchise tag trade done[/B]. The major issue we are facing with this approach is not Cousins, its our Front office folks with a history record of fucking up with QB transactions. I think its much tougher thing to pull off just based on our decision makers. Very little trust there.[/quote]

Explain how.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=Chico23231;1186927]This is not an absolute. We are on the outside looking in...I think a reasonable front office put in a similar situation would could effectively get a franchise tag trade done. The major issue we are facing with this approach is not Cousins, its our Front office folks with a history record of fucking up with QB transactions. I think its much tougher thing to pull off just based on our decision makers. Very little trust there.[/quote]

And additionally, help me with the timing. How are you ensuring that the situation is resolved before free agency opens?

Remember, you've got to know how much cap space you have to work with when free agency opens, otherwise you can't be active in that first week.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

Please don't respond back: I don't know, but some capable front office should.

If you can't war game it out then this discussion isn't worthy of your response.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

I think what people here are saying is a sign and trade is a possibility. Is it a slim one? I'd say yes, slim to very slim. But it is possible so therefore it's up for discussion.

But I personally think Cousins has a lot of competition and that may drive down his value. He's got 4 guys that may go the Jets, Browns, Giants and Broncos with those first few picks of the 1st. That's more of a possibility, plus there's free agent competition. All those FA guys are going to come cheaper than Cousins.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

Schneed,

You had the right idea in a post a couple of weeks ago. You said the Skins should make him a solid offer now based on how much they can afford and a structure they can live with that would not adversely affect their ability to continue to build a contender. With that, you stated would come deadline for a deal to get done. I think that is the way to go at this point. There would be no offer of any form of tag.

I think that a solid deal on the table with a deadline might give the Redskins some leverage, although only Kirk and his agent could determine how much. In any event, it might get substantive talks started. If not, we'll know that Kirk doesn't want to be here.

Regardless of what happens once the offer is made and the deadline is established, the Skins can move forward with the urgent business of team building once Kirk signs or the deadline expires. The deadline must be firm for this strategy to work.

From my personal point of view, this strategy works whether or not Kirk signs a LTD because the Skins will now be able to proceed with either Plan A or Plan B. I don't much care which way it goes. With Plan A, we have our QB. With Plan B, we save up to $34M in cap space and we get a 3rd round compensatory pick. I'm good either way.

p.s. I see that you reposted your position while I was typing this post. Good.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=Schneed10;1186925]Because New England was smart about managing their leverage. They recognized that their last chance to trade Jimmy G was at the trade deadline. If he was still a Patriot at the end of the season, their only route for attempting to trade him would have been to apply a tag. But that would have been a huge risk, because what if he signed the deal?

Basically they foresaw the situation we're now in with Cousins, and they avoided it by getting what they could when they had their last chance.

But to be fair, they could afford to trade him midseason too, since Brady was their starter. We didn't have that luxury with Cousins, he's our starter.

Now though, with Cousins a pending free agent, teams know they don't have to trade a 2nd rounder for him. Why? War game it with me:

- If you transition tag him for $28M, you don't actually give yourself any leverage. All it takes is for Cousins to sign an offer sheet with a team, then your only threat to retain him is to match it. And if we haven't been serious about paying $27M per season yet, why would we match one that has that (or more)? Our position is as transparent as can be - teams will know that all they have to do is structure a contract high enough, and we won't match.

- If you franchise tag him for $34M then you maintain leverage. You can give him permission to work out a deal with other teams, sure. But we've been down this road, you know what he'll do. He'll sign it and play under the tag for $34M. Maybe, as you say, he'll be more interested in getting settled long term and thus want to work a deal to get away. But can you risk that? Because remember, until a trade is struck, he sits there occupying $34M in cap space, in March, at the beginning of free agency when you could really use the cap space to do other things. So you'd be entering free agency with a great deal of uncertainty at QB, unable to make any long term plans, unable to go out to sign defensive upgrades, and possibly missing out on the other QB options while you wait for the Cousins situation to resolve itself.

It's not going to happen. The Redskins know all the leverage sits with Cousins, and until the situation resolves itself they have no ability to form a long term plan. I'd submit you can't tag him, knowing there's a distinct possibility he'll sign and play for $34M. If you do, you're risking a great deal just to try to acquire a bit more than what you'd get if you just let him walk (a 3rd rounder).[/quote]

I was under the impression that we couldn't get anything for Cousins, whether if he outright walks or if the 'skins slapped the transition tag on him.

"[I]The snag with the transition tag is that, while Washington has the option to match any offer sheet Cousins receives from other teams, the team would not get any compensation if it declines to match and Cousins leaves.[/I]"
[URL="http://www.nbcsports.com/washington/washington-redskins/if-redskins-dont-sign-kirk-cousins-multi-year-deal-transition-tag-could-be-his"]If redskins don't sign Kirk Cousins to LTD, would Transition Tag be in play?[/URL]

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=metalskins;1186937]I was under the impression that we couldn't get anything for Cousins, whether if he outright walks or if the 'skins slapped the transition tag on him.

"[I]The snag with the transition tag is that, while Washington has the option to match any offer sheet Cousins receives from other teams, the team would not get any compensation if it declines to match and Cousins leaves.[/I]"
[URL="http://www.nbcsports.com/washington/washington-redskins/if-redskins-dont-sign-kirk-cousins-multi-year-deal-transition-tag-could-be-his"]If redskins don't sign Kirk Cousins to LTD, would Transition Tag be in play?[/URL][/quote]

I think they mean we would not get any compensation from other teams. It doesn't mean we wouldn't get a compensatory selection.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1186932]I think what people here are saying is a sign and trade is a possibility. Is it a slim one? I'd say yes, slim to [B]very slim[/B]. But it is possible so therefore it's up for discussion.

But I personally think Cousins has a lot of competition and that may drive down his value. He's got 4 guys that may go the Jets, Browns, Giants and Broncos with those first few picks of the 1st. That's more of a possibility, plus there's free agent competition. All those FA guys are going to come cheaper than Cousins.[/quote]

OK I can get on board with this clarification. I would call it very very very very slim. Like not at all likely. Like, don't get your hopes up in any meaningful way, that kind of likely.

But if you want to talk about it for shits and giggles then fine. I'm more interested in thinking through the realities, personally.

As for your comment on his competition, I agree. The availability of Bradford and Bridgewater, not to mention possibilities of Alex Smith, definitely muddies things for Cousins. But ultimately, Cousins is the cream of the crop so I think someone is likely to lock onto him with a high dollar offer. We're starting to see believable rumblings coming from the top beat reporter covering the Broncos that they're all in on him, even going so far as to describe how they'd clear the space (Talib) to make it happen.

I think the availability of Bradford, Bridgewater and others is plenty of reason for us to make a strong but reasonable offer and let the chips fall where they may. I don't think I'd personally support signing Cousins to a $27M per year deal when Teddy BDG might be had for $8M less.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=Schneed10;1186938]I think they mean we would not get any compensation from other teams. It doesn't mean we wouldn't get a compensatory selection.[/quote]

Oh, OK. That makes sense.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

By the way I almost hope we let Cousins walk and sign Bridgewater because then I'll just go around saying

[YT]1jUBbCgMWmE[/YT]

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=Schneed10;1186929]And additionally, help me with the timing. How are you ensuring that the situation is resolved before free agency opens?

Remember, you've got to know how much cap space you have to work with when free agency opens, otherwise you can't be active in that first week.[/quote]

and that's my issue...I don't know all the time...what's allowed and what's not.

First and foremost: Now if we don't want Cousins as a QB and don't offer a deal, then let him walk...but this would be the most epically poor free handling of a QB of all time. You let an asset walk at all time high value with zero in return? lol, wow...historically bad business decision. What was the point to bring him back last year with that final deal offered? poor...this is why I state I have zero faith in the decision makers.

How to get Cousins franchise tag traded:

I think you get Cousins team together asap..or when its allowed. And make him a big boy offer....Because we do want him to be our QB, right? If we make him an offer that is legit (top 1 or 2 paid QB in the league) and he hesitates, rejects it or simply says I don't want to be here...then its not about the money then clearly its about him wanting to leave. I would explain time invested and the money we have paid to him the last couple years as part of that commitment. Let him know we will allow him to negotiate with team he wants and the franchise tag applies as compensation. Allow him to negotiate a deal and we can work out compensation according to tag rules. But be firm with him...once we offered a great deal and you say no, we have officially moved on at the QB spot.

I think 'war game' stuff...you can point to San Fran moving on Jimmy G where teams simply moved on from Cousins as an option. If we wants to play the "well, I want to stay now because of the tag" after stating he wanted to leave...Point to the Josh Norman situation where Carolina released him when everyone had spent all their big bucks elsewhere late in summer. Teams aren't going to wait for Cousins, look at the draft...I guarantee 5 QBs being draft first round. Teams will not wait, they are moving on.

I would look at this as a joint venture, tell Cousins we want the best for you and we want fair compensation. Work together to quickly get it done.

Franchise QB don't hit the market very often, I would imagine 5-7 teams would line up immediately and have serious contracts prepared.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=Schneed10;1186939]OK I can get on board with this clarification. I would call it very very very very slim. Like not at all likely. Like, don't get your hopes up in any meaningful way, that kind of likely.

But if you want to talk about it for shits and giggles then fine. I'm more interested in thinking through the realities, personally.

As for your comment on his competition, I agree. The availability of Bradford and Bridgewater, not to mention possibilities of Alex Smith, definitely muddies things for Cousins. But ultimately, Cousins is the cream of the crop so I think someone is likely to lock onto him with a high dollar offer. We're starting to see believable rumblings coming from the top beat reporter covering the Broncos that they're all in on him, even going so far as to describe how they'd clear the space (Talib) to make it happen.

I think the availability of Bradford, Bridgewater and others is plenty of reason for us to make a strong but reasonable offer and let the chips fall where they may. [B]I don't think I'd personally support signing Cousins to a $27M per year deal when Teddy BDG might be had for $8M less[/B].[/quote]

From 13:50 to 24:30, Cooley breaks down film on Teddy BDG

[url]http://cdn.stationcaster.com/stations/wtem/media/mpeg/01_30_18_Cooley___Kevin_HR_4-1517327971.mp3[/url]

He doesn't like him a lot. Good legs, accurate on short and medium balls, but inaccurate on deep balls, bad pocket passer, bad eyes, tends to escape the pocket too quickly when his first read isn't available, doesn't read nor react to pressure efficiently.
Cooley sees him as a 2 to 3 years project at best, not a year 1 legitimate starter.

But, he only played one full season and as you said he'd be pretty cheap, so I still doesn't hate the idea.

Him or Alex Smith and a 4-5th round QB pick behind is fine by me.
Smith would be more expensive but I think he's a bit underrated.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1186946]From 13:50 to 24:30, Cooley breaks down film on Teddy BDG

[url]http://cdn.stationcaster.com/stations/wtem/media/mpeg/01_30_18_Cooley___Kevin_HR_4-1517327971.mp3[/url]

He doesn't like him a lot. Good legs, accurate on short and medium balls, but inaccurate on deep balls, bad pocket passer, bad eyes, tends to escape the pocket too quickly when his first read isn't available, doesn't read nor react to pressure efficiently.
Cooley sees him as a 2 to 3 years project at best, not a year 1 legitimate starter.

But, he only played one full season and as you said he'd be pretty cheap, so I still doesn't hate the idea.

Him or Alex Smith and a 4-5th round QB pick behind is fine by me.
Smith would be more expensive but I think he's a bit underrated.[/quote]

I honestly believe no matter the free agent, the team that signs him also drafts a QB.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=Chico23231;1186945]and that's my issue...I don't know all the time...what's allowed and what's not.

First and foremost: Now if we don't want Cousins as a QB and don't offer a deal, then let him walk...but this would be the most epically poor free handling of a QB of all time. You let an asset walk at all time high value with zero in return? lol, wow...historically bad business decision. What was the point to bring him back last year with that final deal offered? poor...this is why I state I have zero faith in the decision makers.

How to get Cousins franchise tag traded:

I think you get Cousins team together asap..or when its allowed. And make him a big boy offer....Because we do want him to be our QB, right? If we make him an offer that is legit (top 1 or 2 paid QB in the league) and he hesitates, rejects it or simply says I don't want to be here...then its not about the money then clearly its about him wanting to leave. I would explain time invested and the money we have paid to him the last couple years as part of that commitment. Let him know we will allow him to negotiate with team he wants and the franchise tag applies as compensation. Allow him to negotiate a deal and we can work out compensation according to tag rules. But be firm with him...once we offered a great deal and you say no, we have officially moved on at the QB spot.

I think 'war game' stuff...you can point to San Fran moving on Jimmy G where teams simply moved on from Cousins as an option. If we wants to play the "well, I want to stay now because of the tag" after stating he wanted to leave...Point to the Josh Norman situation where Carolina released him when everyone had spent all their big bucks elsewhere late in summer. Teams aren't going to wait for Cousins, look at the draft...I guarantee 5 QBs being draft first round. Teams will not wait, they are moving on.

I would look at this as a joint venture, tell Cousins we want the best for you and we want fair compensation. Work together to quickly get it done.

Franchise QB don't hit the market very often, I would imagine 5-7 teams would line up immediately and have serious contracts prepared.[/quote]

So to be clear, you're saying make your best offer, and if he says no then slap the $34M franchise tag on him, and hold onto him as long as possible to make a trade?

What if he signs the $34M the second you put the tag on him, as he's done the past two years? It's a guaranteed contract at that point. You can't release him at that point. The second he signs it you lose complete control. He gets 100% control over whether he wants to negotiate a trade with other teams or whether he wants to collect $34M from you.

To say nothing of what carrying a $34M QB does to your cap when free agency opens on March 6. It's a non starter.

We really need to brush up on what the franchise tag means, in terms of cap space, in terms of what happens when it's signed, in terms of deadlines, all of that. There seems to be so much misunderstanding that you guys are coming up with cockamamie schemes to extract value for him, but you'd actually put the Redskins even further behind the 8 ball.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1186946]From 13:50 to 24:30, Cooley breaks down film on Teddy BDG

[url]http://cdn.stationcaster.com/stations/wtem/media/mpeg/01_30_18_Cooley___Kevin_HR_4-1517327971.mp3[/url]

He doesn't like him a lot. Good legs, accurate on short and medium balls, but inaccurate on deep balls, bad pocket passer, bad eyes, tends to escape the pocket too quickly when his first read isn't available, doesn't read nor react to pressure efficiently.
Cooley sees him as a 2 to 3 years project at best, not a year 1 legitimate starter.

But, he only played one full season and as you said he'd be pretty cheap, so I still doesn't hate the idea.

Him or Alex Smith and a 4-5th round QB pick behind is fine by me.
Smith would be more expensive but I think he's a bit underrated.[/quote]

Yeah I'm not necessarily sold on Teddy, I just like saying Teddy BDG.

I'd be worried about how he bounces back from the knee.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=Schneed10;1186950]So to be clear, you're saying make your best offer, and if he says no then slap the $34M franchise tag on him, and hold onto him as long as possible to make a trade?

What if he signs the $34M the second you put the tag on him, as he's done the past two years? It's a guaranteed contract at that point. You can't release him at that point. The second he signs it you lose complete control. He gets 100% control over whether he wants to negotiate a trade with other teams or whether he wants to collect $34M from you.

To say nothing of what carrying a $34M QB does to your cap when free agency opens on March 6. It's a non starter.

We really need to brush up on what the franchise tag means, in terms of cap space, in terms of what happens when it's signed, in terms of deadlines, all of that. There seems to be so much misunderstanding that you guys are coming up with cockamamie schemes to extract value for him, but you'd actually put the Redskins even further behind the 8 ball.[/quote]

Redskins put the Redskins further behind the 8 ball...hence my original thought to why unlikely. Its pattern unfortunately.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=Schneed10;1186951]Yeah I'm not necessarily sold on Teddy, I just like saying Teddy BDG.

I'd be worried about how he bounces back from the knee.[/quote]

I'd sure be more excited with him at a cheap price and a lot of cap space to build around him (and the defense) than with Colt McCoy (at any price) or Cousins tagged at 34M...
And from what I understand there is no plug and play QB prospect in this year draft. At least not where we pick and I don't want us breaking the bank on a toss up again.

So BDG, Bradford, Smith and a late pick is fine. But the cheaper the QB, the more space to build the team...

It's strange, I want Cousins here, but if he leaves, I don't us to spend too much on an average FA. Just pick an ok starter and build the team.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=Chico23231;1186952]Redskins put the Redskins further behind the 8 ball...hence my original thought to why unlikely. Its pattern unfortunately.[/quote]

That's a fair observation, and I agree they've been morons, but that's ultimately unhelpful on formulating the best go-forward path from here.

Hopefully through this thought exercise it's now apparent to everyone that trading Cousins somehow is extraordinarily unlikely. Trying to put yourself in position to do so (applying the tag) puts you at enormous risk. At worst, he signs the $34M deal and the money's guaranteed, and you're back in this position next year. At best, he plays along and agrees to help you find a trade partner, but does so during the first few weeks of free agency, meantime occupying $34M of your cap space which you then can't use in free agency.

You have to have it resolved by March 6 or let him go. That's our reality.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;1186925]Because New England was smart about managing their leverage. They recognized that their last chance to trade Jimmy G was at the trade deadline. If he was still a Patriot at the end of the season, their only route for attempting to trade him would have been to apply a tag. But that would have been a huge risk, because what if he signed the deal?

Basically they foresaw the situation we're now in with Cousins, and they avoided it by getting what they could when they had their last chance.

But to be fair, they could afford to trade him midseason too, since Brady was their starter. We didn't have that luxury with Cousins, he's our starter.

Now though, with Cousins a pending free agent, teams know they don't have to trade a 2nd rounder for him. Why? War game it with me:

- If you transition tag him for $28M, you don't actually give yourself any leverage. All it takes is for Cousins to sign an offer sheet with a team, then your only threat to retain him is to match it. And if we haven't been serious about paying $27M per season yet, why would we match one that has that (or more)? Our position is as transparent as can be - teams will know that all they have to do is structure a contract high enough, and we won't match.

- If you franchise tag him for $34M then you maintain leverage. You can give him permission to work out a deal with other teams, sure. But we've been down this road, you know what he'll do. He'll sign it and play under the tag for $34M. Maybe, as you say, he'll be more interested in getting settled long term and thus want to work a deal to get away. But can you risk that? Because remember, until a trade is struck, he sits there occupying $34M in cap space, in March, at the beginning of free agency when you could really use the cap space to do other things. So you'd be entering free agency with a great deal of uncertainty at QB, unable to make any long term plans, unable to go out to sign defensive upgrades, and possibly missing out on the other QB options while you wait for the Cousins situation to resolve itself.

It's not going to happen. The Redskins know all the leverage sits with Cousins, and until the situation resolves itself they have no ability to form a long term plan. I'd submit you can't tag him, knowing there's a distinct possibility he'll sign and play for $34M. If you do, you're risking a great deal just to try to acquire a bit more than what you'd get if you just let him walk (a 3rd rounder).[/QUOTE]

Hmmm... I think the argument about cap space during free agency is a good one. They would still have 20mil+ in space and they can restructure and release a few players, but I do think you're right that they would be hampered. I'll have to think a bit that some.

BTW... letting him go would be bring a conditional 3rd next year right? That's much less value than a higher 3rd this year FWIW.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

Its just funny how to me Chip Kelley destroyed the Eagles and some how they are in the SB a few years later. Yet we keep just spinning like a top in average and below average range. Frustrating.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=mredskins;1186956]Its just funny how to me Chip Kelley destroyed the Eagles and [B]some how[/B] they are in the SB a few years later. Yet we keep just spinning like a top in average and below average range. Frustrating.[/quote]

* somehow aka hired a new coach and drafted a stud QB

The Eagles make the case for change, not for continuity.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=WillH;1186955]Hmmm... I think the argument about cap space during free agency is a good one. They would still have 20mil+ in space and they can restructure and release a few players, but I do think you're right that they would be hampered. I'll have to think a bit that some.

BTW... letting him go would be bring a conditional 3rd next year right? That's much less value than a higher 3rd this year FWIW.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk[/quote]

Not conditional. A guaranteed 3rd rounder as a compensatory selection. It would come at the end of the 3rd round in 2019.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=Schneed10;1186957]* somehow aka hired a new coach and drafted a stud QB

The Eagles make the case for change, not for continuity.[/quote]

They struck gold with that duo, it happens look at LAR Goff is now a stud. Jay/Kirk has been really good too, the difference is the Eagles actually have a defense that they can rely on to get that QB the ball back.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=mredskins;1186956]Its just funny how to me Chip Kelley destroyed the Eagles and some how they are in the SB a few years later. Yet we keep just spinning like a top in average and below average range. Frustrating.[/quote]

"they are set back years" Yeah that's why there is no more FUTURE in the NFL, It's a win now league and teams you dont think can win can (browns dont count). That is why the NFL Playoffs are so different every yr.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1186959]They struck gold with that duo, it happens look at LAR Goff is now a stud. Jay/Kirk has been really good too, the difference is the Eagles actually have a defense that they can rely on to get that QB the ball back.[/quote]

That's true about the defense, but saying Jay/Kirk is as good as Doug/Carson is a false equivalency. Wentz threw 33 TDs in 13 games because he extends and makes plays Kirk can't.

But I get it. That's the case for continuity - if only we could develop a defense to pair with our strong offense.

That's exactly why you can't put a tag on Cousins and have him take up $34M of space during that first week of free agency. We need to acquire a piece or two to help with that defensive build.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=Schneed10;1186961]That's true about the defense, but saying Jay/Kirk is as good as Doug/Carson is a false equivalency. Wentz threw 33 TDs in 13 games because he extends and makes plays Kirk can't.

But I get it. That's the case for continuity - if only we could develop a defense to pair with our strong offense.

That's exactly why you can't put a tag on Cousins and have him take up $34M of space during that first week of free agency. We need to acquire a piece or two to help with that defensive build.[/quote]

Yep which is why we as fans get so tired of the BS, finally have a QB that can put up top 10 results and he's about to walk out the door. So now what? We start from scratch again and HOPE we get lucky with the QB/HC combo again, or... we will go back to JZ/JC and be 6-10 for the next 4 years

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=mredskins;1186956]Its just funny how to me Chip Kelley destroyed the Eagles and some how they are in the SB a few years later. Yet we keep just spinning like a top in average and below average range. Frustrating.[/quote]

Their GM deserves a lot of credit...he was very aggressive in moves with multiple trades with Miami, Buffalo and Baltimore. And that doesn't mention the Wentz move.

We've been so snake bitten by prior trades that even the suggestion will bring criticism...but if you actually had competence in the front office it can be a different story.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1186962]Yep which is why we as fans get so tired of the BS, finally have a QB that can put up top 10 results and he's about to walk out the door. So now what? We start from scratch again and HOPE we get lucky with the QB/HC combo again, or... we will go back to JZ/JC and be 6-10 for the next 4 years[/quote]

Reality bites.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=Chico23231;1186963]Their GM deserves a lot of credit...he was very aggressive in moves with multiple trades with Miami, Buffalo and Baltimore. And that doesn't mention the Wentz move.

We've been so snake bitten by prior trades that even the suggestion will bring criticism...but if you actually had competence in the front office it can be a different story.[/quote]

Yeah every move that Roseman made has worked out. It's frustrating to see theirs all pan out and ours all blow up in our face.

That said, the Eagles have a bit of a mortgaged future, when you really look at it. This year they have a 1st rounder, 2 4ths, 2 5ths, and a 6th. That's it. Only 6 picks, and only one in the first 3 rounds. So their ability to draft players to replace some aging vets or guys that leave in free agency is diminished.

So I'm hoping that as Jason Peters and Jason Kelce age they'll struggle to replace them cheaply. They'll hopefully find themselves needing to get a center and a tackle in free agency, thus really putting them in a cap bind once Wentz reaches the point where he needs to be resigned. And his contract will blow the doors off.

We just have to keep them from winning the SB over the next three years, somehow someway, and then I think they'll find themselves in the same position as the Seahawks are right now. Still in good shape because of the QB, but life is still a struggle at other positions.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1186962]Yep which is why we as fans get so tired of the BS, finally have a QB that can put up top 10 results and he's about to walk out the door. So now what? We start from scratch again and HOPE we get lucky with the QB/HC combo again, or... we will go back to JZ/JC and be 6-10 for the next 4 years[/quote]

Not to me a smart ass but with KC we were 7 and 9 this year, its not like we are flying high with KC.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;1186954]That's a fair observation, and I agree they've been morons, but that's ultimately unhelpful on formulating the best go-forward path from here.

Hopefully through this thought exercise it's now apparent to everyone that trading Cousins somehow is extraordinarily unlikely. Trying to put yourself in position to do so (applying the tag) puts you at enormous risk. At worst, he signs the $34M deal and the money's guaranteed, and you're back in this position next year. At best, he plays along and agrees to help you find a trade partner, but does so during the first few weeks of free agency, meantime occupying $34M of your cap space which you then can't use in free agency.

You have to have it resolved by March 6 or let him go. That's our reality.[/QUOTE]

No need to condescend. I understand the tag situations, we just disagree on the likelihood. I concede that your point about flexibility in free agency is a good one, but if you're willing to concede that there exists to be a potential for Cousins to work with the team on a trade than I think this is still a very relevant discussion.

In your best case scenario you are suggesting that we wouldn't be able to really get who we want unless things are settled by the opening of free agency. I would suggest that this may not be as accurate as you intuit. In recent free agency periods we were not extremely active with high priced players out of the gate, most of our higher priced acquisitions came late in free agency. Why would this change, and would you really want it to?

I also think it is worth consideration whether or not sacrificing an active free agency this year is worth attempting to find compensation for our best asset. An additional 1st round pick this year is likely a much better value than 34mil worth of free agents, all things considered.

Although yours is a good argument worth consideration it is not a flawless one, and doesn't just end the relevance of the discussion.



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Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=mredskins;1186956]Its just funny how to me Chip Kelley destroyed the Eagles and some how they are in the SB a few years later. Yet we keep just spinning like a top in average and below average range. Frustrating.[/quote]

The Eagles have really made some moves that have worked out well. Obviously Wentz is the major one, but they've also hit on some of their free agents too. For instance, they signed Jeffrey, we signed Pryor. They traded for Jernigan, put him in the 4-3 and he's been a stud for them. We sign two JAG's and overpaid for both. They got Swartz, we got Manusky.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=mredskins;1186967]Not to me a smart ass but with KC we were 7 and 9 this year, its not like we are flying high with KC.[/quote]

True but would you rather have a bad QB and be boring or have a guy that can at least put up points and big plays?

Side note.

Over the last 3 years Kirk is 2nd behind Brees in QBR from the pocket

From PFF

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1186970]True but would you rather have a bad QB and be boring or have a guy that can at least put up points and big plays?

Side note.

Over the last 3 years Kirk is 2nd behind Brees in QBR from the pocket

From PFF[/quote]

I rather just win some football games.

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[quote=mredskins;1186971]I rather just win some football games.[/quote]

fair

Re: The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0
 

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/01/30/kirk-cousins-wants-to-win-and-find-the-right-team-he-can-help-win/]Kirk Cousins wants to win, and find the right team he can help win – ProFootballTalk[/url]

More of the same stuff..

"we might see u on another team next yr" simms

"we might" kc

why cant Kirk just say " I'm not going anywhere" Like brees did....


Broncos beat writer Cecil Lammey on Denver pursuit of Kirk Cousins: "It sounds like the Washington #Redskins will not let Kirk Cousins go without getting something for him in return. The buzz is that Washington will transition tag Cousins then put him on the trade block."