Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

See I don't think Ramsey is that inconsistent. You have to remember he is still a young QB. Plus he has never been given a clean slate by Gibbs and this coaching staff. It's as if Gibbs was waiting for him to get injured or fuck up, so that he could put his man in. I really don't understand why Gibbs is so much in love with this guy.
From Sunday's game I saw a lot of positives when Ramsey was there. There was a spark in our offense. Twice we converted on 3rd and long!! I was really impressed on how well Ramsey came back after the interception.
If I am Ramsey I would also demand to be traded. C'mon there is no point in fighiting for a position when you know that the other person has already made his mind. I am telling all of you right now that trading Ramsey is gonna cost us, as he is going to be a very good QB in any system where his headcoach believes in him. This is insane. I cannot belive that Gibbs of all the people is doing this


[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Gibbs did stick by Brunell too long last year. I don't think anybody will deny that.

But the fact he was willing to stick with him for so long rather than going to a healthy Ramsey is telling, especially now that we've seen how inconsistent Ramsey remains.[/QUOTE]

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]Is there any other thread worth starting right now??

Will this one break the record, whatever that is, as the longest thread?[/QUOTE]

The number of threads is amazing on this one. Obviously, this move has fanned the flames. But, it's a healthy debate and one that proves how much we all care about the team.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=LadyT]We had the same "caretaker" QB last year and look where it got us. Obviously, we need more than that.[/QUOTE]

He was hurting and his offensive line was a sieve. It's a totally different situation now. We have a running game now and a good offensive line.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

These days you can't afford to give a QB an entire season. Times change, QB's no longer get to hold the clipboard for a season and learn. Big Ben worked out for the Steelers, why not get Campbell in there?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]how much time does he need?? i'm not disagreeing with you, but how much time is enough time?[/QUOTE]

At least as much time as MB was given last year - which was either 9 or 10 games as the starting QB during regular season.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=RedskinRat]These days you can't afford to give a QB an entire season. Times change, QB's no longer get to hold the clipboard for a season and learn. Big Ben worked out for the Steelers, why not get Campbell in there?[/QUOTE]

Well, I don't think we hit the panic button and just give the ball to Campbell yet. If things spiral out of control, let's by mid-season then yes, give Campbell a shot. But I think it's way, way too early to even consider Campbell at this point.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]I'll take you on. Because RAMSEY SUCKED THAT PRESEASON!!!

Brunell got hurt in week 2 against the Giants. What exactly did Ramsey do up until that point to convince anyone that he could come in and play well? Hell, he threw so many INTs in that Giants game in relief of Brunell, I'm surprised he could even make a college team.

After the preseason performance and that Giants performance, what coach in his right mind would switch to Ramsey, even if Brunell's passes were soft?

Ramsey finally learned enough of the offense by week 10 to come in and play better than an injured Brunell. So then Gibbs made the switch. I can't blame Gibbs for what he did last year. And he's right on the money this year.[/QUOTE]

finally someone answers. so Ramsey had "learned the offense" only after Brunell had already lost the season for us? convenient. dont you think 8 games worth of injured middle aged quarterback was too much?

it was Ramsey's performance in *real* games that got him the start this season, and i think that means a hell of alot more than the limited circumstances of preseason. to name Ramsey starter, dedicate the entire offseason to him and then pull him after 3 drives, is just more proof of uncertainty and you can't blame us for being completely freaked out.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=RedskinRat]These days you can't afford to give a QB an entire season. Times change, QB's no longer get to hold the clipboard for a season and learn. Big Ben worked out for the Steelers, why not get Campbell in there?[/QUOTE]

Well I think Campbell is a turnover waiting to happen too. He threw INTs against the 3rd team scrubs in preseason. I don't think that's the answer yet.

I mean, the Steelers only went to Big Ben because Maddox got hurt and he was the next best option. They just lucked out on a rookie QB.

As long as we have Brunell, we shouldn't be playing Campbell yet. Otherwise we're just kind of taking a blind shot in the dark.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=RedskinRat]These days you can't afford to give a QB an entire season. Times change, QB's no longer get to hold the clipboard for a season and learn. Big Ben worked out for the Steelers, why not get Campbell in there?[/QUOTE]

I agree with you, but obviously Gibbs does not. He basically gave MB the entire season last year. By the time he made the change (it was either in game 9 or 10) the season was over with, for all intents and purposes.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]finally someone answers. so Ramsey had "learned the offense" only after Brunell had already lost the season for us? convenient. dont you think 8 games worth of injured middle aged quarterback was too much?

it was Ramsey's performance in *real* games that got him the start this season, and i think that means a hell of alot more than the limited circumstances of preseason. to name Ramsey starter, dedicate the entire offseason to him and then pull him after 3 drives, is just more proof of uncertainty and you can't blame us for being completely freaked out.[/QUOTE]

So two fumbles in 19 minutes don't tell you anything?? They tell me that he still hasn't learned to take care of the ball. Turnovers are how you win and lose games in the NFL. How patient are you willing to be, especially when you have another veteran QB who won't turn it over nearly as much because he can scramble away?

I mean you can't possibly think Brunell will throw more picks than Ramsey. They're at least equals in that department. But you know very well that Brunell won't lose track of the pass rush and fumble as much as Ramsey does.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

Well Ben R. already had a pretty good support staff. In addition Tommy Maddox got injured for a little more than a series, and by the time he got back to work the Steelers were becoming very dominant, not like the situation we have here.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=LadyT]I agree with you, but obviously Gibbs does not. He basically gave MB the entire season last year. By the time he made the change (it was either in game 9 or 10) the season was over with, for all intents and purposes.[/QUOTE]

If I had to second guess what Coach Gibbs was doing last season I'd say he wanted Brunell to hold steady the Offense and Ramsey prepare to take over. He didn't like what he saw from Ramsey and held on to Brunell until it was obvious THAT wouldn't bear fruit. A no-win situation.

This season Brunell has shown he can caretake the position, as someone else stated, he just can't dynamically lead the Offense to a victory.

I want Campbell, mainly because other teams have had it work miracles and the Redskins are about due a miracle of their own.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]So two fumbles in 19 minutes don't tell you anything?? They tell me that he still hasn't learned to take care of the ball. Turnovers are how you win and lose games in the NFL. How patient are you willing to be, especially when you have another veteran QB who won't turn it over nearly as much because he can scramble away?

I mean you can't possibly think Brunell will throw more picks than Ramsey. They're at least equals in that department. But you know very well that Brunell won't lose track of the pass rush and fumble as much as Ramsey does.[/QUOTE]

Yes, Brunell is a competent "caretaker". He's just not a winner, at least not at this point in his career. Personally, I'd rather take my chances with a QB who gives us a chance to win, rather than one who makes fewer mistakes.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=RedskinRat]These days you can't afford to give a QB an entire season. Times change, QB's no longer get to hold the clipboard for a season and learn. Big Ben worked out for the Steelers, why not get Campbell in there?[/QUOTE]

doesn't Ramsey deserve a game? how bout a half?

all the weaknesses of our team last year and improvements this year apply to Ramsey just as well. yet he's had regular season success under Gibbs while Brunell has had nothing more than meaningless preseason success.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=LadyT]At least as much time as MB was given last year - which was either 9 or 10 games as the starting QB during regular season.[/QUOTE]

I don't think we can compare last year to this one - as I said earlier this has nothing to do with loyalty and being fair. We're dealing with different personnell and Gibbs has another year of perspective under his belt. Gibbs has to find out now if a healthy Brunell has it or not. I'm sorry he can't wait. He can't wait for Patrick to come around.

And if you look at most if not all of any of threads that I've been on I've backed up Ramsey, but I've always felt that he would be gone about or before mid-season.

Perhaps Gibbs believes that Brunell is the bridge that get's this team to a level of consistancy until Campbell is ready.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=RedskinRat]If I had to second guess what Coach Gibbs was doing last season I'd say he wanted Brunell to hold steady the Offense and Ramsey prepare to take over. He didn't like what he saw from Ramsey and held on to Brunell until it was obvious THAT wouldn't bear fruit. A no-win situation.

This season Brunell has shown he can caretake the position, as someone else stated, he just can't dynamically lead the Offense to a victory.

I want Campbell, mainly because other teams have had it work miracles and the Redskins are about due a miracle of their own.[/QUOTE]

As much as I think that miracles are possible, the surrounding cast is not in place yet. Ben R's situation was not a miracle by the way. A miracle sometimes needs a little help.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=RedskinRat]I want Campbell, mainly because other teams have had it work miracles and the Redskins are about due a miracle of their own.[/QUOTE]

This is like saying I'm going to bet on Red because the wheel has come up Black 10 times in a row. Except miracles are a lot less likely than a 50/50 spin in roullette.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=RedskinRat]If I had to second guess what Coach Gibbs was doing last season I'd say he wanted Brunell to hold steady the Offense and Ramsey prepare to take over. He didn't like what he saw from Ramsey and held on to Brunell until it was obvious THAT wouldn't bear fruit. A no-win situation.

This season Brunell has shown he can caretake the position, as someone else stated, he just can't dynamically lead the Offense to a victory.

I want Campbell, mainly because other teams have had it work miracles and the Redskins are about due a miracle of their own.[/QUOTE]

As much as I hate to say it, maybe Bradshaw is correct. If Ramsey isn't starting, play the rookie. We know what Brunell has to offer (ugh), but the rookie is still a question mark. At least with the rookie, we have something to hope for, however elusive.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan0201]Well Ben R. already had a pretty good support staff. In addition Tommy Maddox got injured for a little more than a series, and by the time he got back to work the Steelers were becoming very dominant, not like the situation we have here.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I agree. totally different situation than what happened with Big Ben.

Apples and oranges.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]So two fumbles in 19 minutes don't tell you anything?? They tell me that he still hasn't learned to take care of the ball. Turnovers are how you win and lose games in the NFL. How patient are you willing to be, especially when you have another veteran QB who won't turn it over nearly as much because he can scramble away?

I mean you can't possibly think Brunell will throw more picks than Ramsey. They're at least equals in that department. But you know very well that Brunell won't lose track of the pass rush and fumble as much as Ramsey does.[/QUOTE]

yeah it tells me the first three drives of the season against a fresh, motivated Bears defense is a bitch. Brunell would have ducked Lance Briggs' clothesline right? cuz he's a vet? Brunell got a nice worn down defense, just ask Portis.

so what did 16 GAMES last season tell you?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

Gibbs even said himself that he knew people were going to disagree with his decision, I think he might just be trying to teach young Ramsey a lesson as he has with Quarterbacks all throughout his tenor. In addition, did he not take our return man out for a couple of series when he fumbled on Sunday. The returner/reciever is not nearly as complex a position as Quarterback. I just think that Ramsey should stand strong one more time and ride out what could be a shorter wave. In addition he will not let Brunell tarnish his success this year.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan0201]Gibbs even said himself that he knew people were going to disagree with his decision, I think he might just be trying to teach young Ramsey a lesson as he has with Quarterbacks all throughout his tenor. In addition, did he not take our return man out for a couple of series when he fumbled on Sunday. The returner/reciever is not nearly as complex a position as Quarterback. I just think that Ramsey should stand strong one more time and ride out what could be a shorter wave. In addition he will not let Brunell tarnish his success this year.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, this may the wave that rides him out of Washington. Surfs up in Miami beach though!

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

Question for all:


If Brunell gets hurt and can't play, what do you think Gibbs should do?

Put Ramsey back in as the starter or play the rookie?

Two scenarios: 1) the injury is early in the season and we're still in the running or 2) the injury is later and we're basically out of playoff contention.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]This is like saying I'm going to bet on Red because the wheel has come up Black 10 times in a row. Except miracles are a lot less likely than a 50/50 spin in roullette.[/QUOTE]

No, it isn't.

This is Football, where the intangibles decide games.

Campbell for QB!

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]Unfortunately, this may the wave that rides him out of Washington. Surfs up in Miami beach though![/QUOTE]

P. Ramsey needs to look at Gibbs past history in these situations before seeking a trade. He was reacting led by dissappointment primarily yesterday and that will influence your reaction and decision. He might feel a little differently this morning hopefully.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]yeah it tells me the first three drives of the season against a fresh, motivated Bears defense is a bitch. Brunell would have ducked Lance Briggs' clothesline right? cuz he's a vet? Brunell got a nice worn down defense, just ask Portis.

so what did 16 GAMES last season tell you?[/QUOTE]

Maybe Brunell would have fumbled on the Briggs hit, maybe he wouldn't have. But the point is I like his chances at getting away from future pass rushers better than Ramsey, and I like his internal clock better than Ramsey's.

You didn't even address the other fumble which Jansen and Rabach jumped on. That was all a function of Ramsey holding onto the ball way too long, and not securing it when the defenders finally got to him.

Last year's 16 games told me that we went through growing pains. The offensive line was miserable, we missed Jansen and our center sucked. Dockery was only average as well. Brunell got chased all over tarnation, and he had no receivers to throw to. Coles couldn't create separation because his toe was banged up, and Gardner was slow and inconsistent. Gibbs also did not know what he had in Cooley at this point. Brunell hurt himself, had to run all over the place, and never got a fair shake. Ramsey finally learned the ropes and played decently at the end of the season. But he still made his fair share of stupid decisions, like the toss to Cooley when he was double covered by a LB and Brian Dawkins in the end zone.

Now, we have an offensive line and Brunell has more zip on his passes. He played decently in preseason while Ramsey took 90% of the reps in practice. Now Brunell is getting the reps, and I like his veteran savvy better. I think he's a better fit this year. I don't want an erratic QB who I have to wonder if he'll fumble the next time a DE sacks him after 4 seconds of sitting in the pocket. I want a QB who manages the game and doesn't turn it over so that Portis and our D can win it for us.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]Unfortunately, this may the wave that rides him out of Washington. Surfs up in Miami beach though![/QUOTE]

You're funny! But, I agree with you. I just don't see Ramsey coming back from this. Despite their public statements to the contrary, I think there's now too much "bad blood" between Ramsey and Gibbs for either to ever feel comfortable with the other any more.

I don't think Gibbs has any faith in Ramsey (for whatever reason) and I sure don't think Ramsey trusts Gibbs any more.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]Maybe Brunell would have fumbled on the Briggs hit, maybe he wouldn't have. But the point is I like his chances at getting away from future pass rushers better than Ramsey, and I like his internal clock better than Ramsey's.

You didn't even address the other fumble which Jansen and Rabach jumped on. That was all a function of Ramsey holding onto the ball way too long, and not securing it when the defenders finally got to him.

Last year's 16 games told me that we went through growing pains. The offensive line was miserable, we missed Jansen and our center sucked. Dockery was only average as well. Brunell got chased all over tarnation, and he had no receivers to throw to. Coles couldn't create separation because his toe was banged up, and Gardner was slow and inconsistent. Gibbs also did not know what he had in Cooley at this point. Brunell hurt himself, had to run all over the place, and never got a fair shake. Ramsey finally learned the ropes and played decently at the end of the season. But he still made his fair share of stupid decisions, like the toss to Cooley when he was double covered by a LB and Brian Dawkins in the end zone.

Now, we have an offensive line and Brunell has more zip on his passes. He played decently in preseason while Ramsey took 90% of the reps in practice. Now Brunell is getting the reps, and I like his veteran savvy better. I think he's a better fit this year. I don't want an erratic QB who I have to wonder if he'll fumble the next time a DE sacks him after 4 seconds of sitting in the pocket. I want a QB who manages the game and doesn't turn it over so that Portis and our D can win it for us.[/QUOTE]

I don't know that we would have even been in that situation with Brunell that early in the game. We should have scored a touchdown remember!!!!?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan0201]P. Ramsey needs to look at Gibbs past history in these situations before seeking a trade. He was reacting led by dissappointment primarily yesterday and that will influence your reaction and decision. He might feel a little differently this morning hopefully.[/QUOTE]

I would agree with you if......Gibbs hadn't drafted Campbell.

Also, in what situation has Gibbs brought in two quaterbacks to compete for another's job, and subsequently names one the starter one year and benches the QB the following year. I can't ever remember Gibbbs doing something like this.

Help me out.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]I would agree with you if......Gibbs hadn't drafted Campbell.

Also, in what situation has Gibbs brought in two quaterbacks to compete for another's job, and subsequently names one the starter one year and benches the QB the following year. I can't ever remember Gibbbs doing something like this.

Help me out.[/QUOTE]

You're right and that's what makes this all so scary. There are some who think this is all part of a Gibbs' grand plan. To me, it looks like a man who's desperately looking for a miracle. But in MB, that miracle just isn't there.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=LadyT]You're funny! But, I agree with you. I just don't see Ramsey coming back from this. Despite their public statements to the contrary, I think there's now too much "bad blood" between Ramsey and Gibbs for either to ever feel comfortable with the other any more.

I don't think Gibbs has any faith in Ramsey (for whatever reason) and I sure don't think Ramsey trusts Gibbs any more.[/QUOTE]

And this is what has caused Gibbs so much consternation (wow, can't believe I used that word!) in the first place. It wasn't an easy decision, he said it himself.

Personally, I don't think Gibbs struggled with making Brunell the starter this week in favor of Ramsey - I really don't. What I do think he struggled with is how it would affect Ramsey's pshyce going forward and their relationship.

I think Gibbs struggled mainly with sepearating Coach Gibbs from Joe Gibbs.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]And this is what has caused Gibbs so much consternation (wow, can't believe I used that word!) in the first place. It wasn't an easy decision, he said it himself.

Personally, I don't think Gibbs struggled with making Brunell the starter this week in favor of Ramsey - I really don't. What I do think he struggled with is how it would affect Ramsey's pshyce going forward and their relationship.

I think Gibbs struggled mainly with sepearating Coach Gibbs from Joe Gibbs.[/QUOTE]

That's a really insightful comment. Coach Gibbs is a good person, Joe Gibbs is possibly even more so. It can't have been easy.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

Well I think we can all agree that Gibbs honestly feels this is the way to go to win games. So the question isn't whether Brunell is better than Ramsey. The question is whether Gibbs knows what he is doing. I hate this move on a lot of levels but at the end of the day Gibbs has three more Superbowl Rings than anyone here and even more football knowledge. I still think the man knows football and I guess he can just feel it that Ramsey isn't going to get the job done. I still wonder if this is a kick in the oants type move to motivate Ramsey even more. His comments in the press conference were uncharacteristically cold and revealing. Maybe he wants Ramsey to feel abandoned as motivation.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]Well I think we can all agree that Gibbs honestly feels this is the way to go to win games. So the question isn't whether Brunell is better than Ramsey. The question is whether Gibbs knows what he is doing. I hate this move on a lot of levels but at the end of the day Gibbs has three more Superbowl Rings than anyone here and even more football knowledge. I still think the man knows football and I guess he can just feel it that Ramsey isn't going to get the job done. I still wonder if this is a kick in the oants type move to motivate Ramsey even more. His comments in the press conference were uncharacteristically cold and revealing. Maybe he wants Ramsey to feel abandoned as motivation.[/QUOTE]

I doubt it. And I doubt that Gibbs doesn't know what he's doing either.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=LadyT]Question for all:


If Brunell gets hurt and can't play, what do you think Gibbs should do?

Put Ramsey back in as the starter or play the rookie?

Two scenarios: 1) the injury is early in the season and we're still in the running or 2) the injury is later and we're basically out of playoff contention.[/QUOTE]

Ramsey isn't out of the equation just yet.

I'm sure Gibbs told him we still need you and you may still play a vital role with this team, but right now Brunell is the man.

If Brunell were to get hurt early on then most definitely Ramsey will go back in.

If it's late in the year and the team is out of it, I think it depends on if Campbell is ready.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]I doubt it. And I doubt that Gibbs doesn't know what he's doing either.[/QUOTE]
Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]Are you agreeing or disagreeing?[/QUOTE]

disagreeing

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

So you don't think Gibbs knows what he is doing? I find that hard to believe.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]Maybe Brunell would have fumbled on the Briggs hit, maybe he wouldn't have. But the point is I like his chances at getting away from future pass rushers better than Ramsey, and I like his internal clock better than Ramsey's.

You didn't even address the other fumble which Jansen and Rabach jumped on. That was all a function of Ramsey holding onto the ball way too long, and not securing it when the defenders finally got to him.

Last year's 16 games told me that we went through growing pains. The offensive line was miserable, we missed Jansen and our center sucked. Dockery was only average as well. Brunell got chased all over tarnation, and he had no receivers to throw to. Coles couldn't create separation because his toe was banged up, and Gardner was slow and inconsistent. Gibbs also did not know what he had in Cooley at this point. Brunell hurt himself, had to run all over the place, and never got a fair shake. Ramsey finally learned the ropes and played decently at the end of the season. But he still made his fair share of stupid decisions, like the toss to Cooley when he was double covered by a LB and Brian Dawkins in the end zone.

Now, we have an offensive line and Brunell has more zip on his passes. He played decently in preseason while Ramsey took 90% of the reps in practice. Now Brunell is getting the reps, and I like his veteran savvy better. I think he's a better fit this year. I don't want an erratic QB who I have to wonder if he'll fumble the next time a DE sacks him after 4 seconds of sitting in the pocket. I want a QB who manages the game and doesn't turn it over so that Portis and our D can win it for us.[/QUOTE]

we saw what both could do last season, and Ramsey did more with what he had. that much is PROVEN. Brunell may or may not be "healthier" than last season, but i know one thing, he's 36. he certainly won't be our starter next year, and we shouldn't be betting on a temporary solution.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]I would agree with you if......Gibbs hadn't drafted Campbell.

Also, in what situation has Gibbs brought in two quaterbacks to compete for another's job, and subsequently names one the starter one year and benches the QB the following year. I can't ever remember Gibbbs doing something like this.

Help me out.[/QUOTE]

HOF Coach Gibbs went through this with Theisman & Schroeder, Theisman was 5-5 and was doing poorly, then the injury. Rypien & Williams, Rypien was fumble prone, so he inserted Williams. Ryp came back to lead us to the SB the next year. So none of this new.

:dallas: :dallas: