Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;633185]IMO, that would be an amazing combination and would definitely be a move that would be absolutely brilliant for this team. Unfortunately, Snyder and Cowher aren't interested in eachother from what i've read.[/quote]

Yeah that's the rumor now, but it wasn't a few months back, and it may not be a few months from now. A lot can change between now and January

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;633162]It's kind of funny how you were all anti-Weis for several posts...yet hadn't really given much thought to his actual background other than he was just fired by Notre Dame as head coach.

Anyhow, Weis and Shanahan probably wouldn't and won't be a good combo. Weis and Cowher on the other hand...[/quote]

Well to be honest I didn't hear the name and then run out and check him out. Several times earlier I had asked people to inform me as to why they thoought he would be a good candidate. I'm not just going to willy nilly agree that someone should be a good candidate because a few people are riding his jock. On another site people where doing the same thing, not sure if it wasn't the same people but I again asked what was so special about him. No one answered. I coulda, shoulda, Wiki'd him prior to opening my mouth I guess but as you would do with most of your friends you would simply say why do you think he would be a good candidate. With out a decent answer ...I'm seeing a college coach who must have come from the pros and failed. Got fired at the college level. One could say if you can't make it at the college level you aren't going to make it at the NFL level.

I was open to the reasoning. One was "just cause he didn't make it at the college level does not mean he can't make it at the NFL level." I agreed.

I didn't look into him but you guys pointed out he used to be a OC with the Patriots during their SB yrs.

This is when I took the time to look into him. I can be swayed with reasonable information which was lacking on this site other then to say ..."Lets get Charlie Weis." All I needed was the "Why do you think he would be a good choice" and you guys answered it.

I mentioned Carmichael and Christensen cause they are with winning teams right now. I presume they had something to do with that. I'm not DS who would most likely be looking deeper into whether they would or would not be great coach's here, I was simply suggesting other people who I presumed were OC for their teams or had a roll in making them a winning team. Plus they were young.

I could simply keep putting up a post saying

"I want Marty Schottemheimer...get er done."

but I didn't. I like to think I open for suggestions and conversations about those suggestions. Besides we would not have had such a great posting session had I simply said " No I still think he sucks, lets get Marty.".....and yes I know you guys have already said Marty is not wishing to come back.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;633191]Yeah that's the rumor now, but it wasn't a few months back, and it may not be a few months from now. A lot can change between now and January[/quote]

Thats true. We can only hope. The fact that hiring Cowher and committing to him long-term would be the best move Snyder (low risk / high reward) could make in the offseason from a football perspective, its about the only thing Snyder could do that would appease the fans who are fed up with how he's been running this team. Hiring Shanahan and giving him total control just aint gonna cut it.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;633191]Yeah that's the rumor now, but it wasn't a few months back, and it may not be a few months from now. A lot can change between now and January[/quote]


DS is the guru at changing peoples mind. Which is why I still hold out a smidgen of hope everyone gets snatched up and he's left with Marty, but I am now believing there is most likely a verbal agreement already in place with Shanahan. Just a feeling. Otherwise DS would be panicking about teams that have already called him to meat with him. Cerrato and Zorn would already be fired and DS would have Redskins1 enroute to pick him up.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;633193]Thats true. We can only hope. The fact that hiring Cowher and committing to him long-term would be the best move Snyder (low risk / high reward) could make in the offseason from a football perspective, its about the only thing Snyder could do that would appease the fans who are fed up with how he's been running this team. Hiring Shanahan and giving him total control just aint gonna cut it.[/quote]

I would settle for starting with Cerrato and telling him his services were no longer needed.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SBXVII;633198]I would settle for starting with Cerrato and telling him his services were no longer needed.[/quote]

I wouldnt fire Cerrato unless/until I was pretty sure I could land a specific replacement. If Snyder wants either of the big name coaches (really its down to just Shanahan and Cowher at this point), he'd need to hire them first and have them select the front office structure they wanted. Its kind of a backwards way to do it, but the only way I can see it happening this year.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;633207]I wouldnt fire Cerrato unless/until I was pretty sure I could land a specific replacement. If Snyder wants either of the big name coaches (really its down to just Shanahan and Cowher at this point), he'd need to hire them first and have them select the front office structure they wanted. [B]Its kind of a backwards way to do it, but the only way I can see it happening this year[/B].[/quote]

kinda like hiring a oc before you have a hc?

Re: Our next coach??
 

I don't know about the head coach but how does charlie weis as oc and al groh as dc sound to u guys?

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=mlmdub130;633227]kinda like hiring a oc before you have a hc?[/quote]

Not really. Hiring an OC before a HC wreaked of an owner wanting to essentially install a "puppet head coach," which is exactly what Zorn has been his entire time here. Its only become blatantly evident in the most recent couple of months as Zorn has been publically neutered of authority and responsibilities. If I didnt know better, i'd think Snyder never really expected Zorn to succeed and was merely using him as a placeholder the entire time until bigger fish became available. (Who rebuffed Snyder 2 years ago because he wasnt ready to return to coaching yet?... Hmmm. No, can't be it. Snyder and Cowher don't want to have anything to do with eachother.)

Anyway, hiring a big name head coach before hiring a GM is the most sensible thing to do in this situation. While its often wise to gamble on a young HC with upside, you simply don't gamble on a GM. If you're rebuilding, you want to do it with someone who has serious credentials. Chris Polian was the only guy who fit the bill and he's now off the market. As far as older guys who've been GMs before, they've all been fired from previous jobs and for good reason - they have proven track records of failure. There are simply no "elite" GMs available. However, there are two, and possibly three (if we include Holmgren), elite coaches available. The smart thing to do in these circumstances is to hire your coach and then let him select a GM he trusts and is comfortable working with. If Snyder doesnt do that, then surely, one of the other teams out there will. If Snyder wants to land one of them, he would be foolish to fire Cerrato and hire a GM before selecting the HC. To do so would limit his options, as Cowher and probably Shanahan, already have guys in mind they'd want to fill GM roles.

Now, Snyder may hire Parcells or Gibbs as team president, and let them select the coach and GM... but under no circumstances should he hire a GM before a coach unless/until Cowher, Shanahan, and Holmgren are no longer available/under consideration.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;633207]I wouldnt fire Cerrato unless/until I was pretty sure I could land a specific replacement. If Snyder wants either of the big name coaches (really its down to just Shanahan and Cowher at this point), he'd need to hire them first and have them select the front office structure they wanted. Its kind of a backwards way to do it, but the only way I can see it happening this year.[/quote]

I would fire Vinny even if it meant I needed to pull someone off this board and name them GM.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;633239]Not really. Hiring an OC before a HC wreaked of an owner wanting to essentially install a "puppet head coach," which is exactly what Zorn has been his entire time here. Its only become blatantly evident in the most recent couple of months as Zorn has been publically neutered of authority and responsibilities. If I didnt know better, i'd think Snyder never really expected Zorn to succeed and was merely using him as a placeholder the entire time until bigger fish became available. (Who rebuffed Snyder 2 years ago because he wasnt ready to return to coaching yet?... Hmmm. No, can't be it. Snyder and Cowher don't want to have anything to do with eachother.)

Anyway, hiring a big name head coach before hiring a GM is the most sensible thing to do in this situation. While its often wise to gamble on a young HC with upside, you simply don't gamble on a GM. If you're rebuilding, you want to do it with someone who has serious credentials. Chris Polian was the only guy who fit the bill and he's now off the market. As far as older guys who've been GMs before, they've all been fired from previous jobs and for good reason - they have proven track records of failure. There are simply no "elite" GMs available. However, there are two, and possibly three (if we include Holmgren), elite coaches available. [B]The smart thing to do in these circumstances is to hire your coach and then let him select a GM he trusts and is comfortable working with. [/B] If Snyder doesnt do that, then surely, one of the other teams out there will. If Snyder wants to land one of them, he would be foolish to fire Cerrato and hire a GM before selecting the HC. To do so would limit his options, as Cowher and probably Shanahan, already have guys in mind they'd want to fill GM roles.

Now, Snyder may hire Parcells or Gibbs as team president, and let them select the coach and GM... but under no circumstances should he hire a GM before a coach unless/until Cowher, Shanahan, and Holmgren are no longer available/under consideration.[/quote]

Kind of like Mangini and Kokinis with the Browns?

There are plenty of strong candidates for GM (DeCosta, Raye, Gaine-just to name three of the younger guys)

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=celts32;633245]I would fire Vinny even if it meant I needed to pull someone off this board and name them GM.[/quote]

Well GMScud already has the name

Re: Our next coach??
 

Fire Vinny, hire a GM, let the GM pick his coach. Kind of like normal teams.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;633246]Kind of like Mangini and Kokinis with the Browns?

There are plenty of strong candidates for GM (DeCosta, Raye, Gaine-just to name three of the younger guys)[/quote]

Given the caliber of experienced HC talent out there, i wouldn't gamble on Shanahan, Holmgren, or Cowher wanting to work for any of these guys. Now, if you want to go with a young, unproven coach again, then sure, make one of these guys GM and let him select the coach. However, I personally would much rather have an experienced coach at this point. I'd even rather have Fassel (I can't believe I just said that)

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;633264]Given the caliber of experienced HC talent out there, i wouldn't gamble on Shanahan, Holmgren, or Cowher wanting to work for any of these guys. Now, if you want to go with a young, unproven coach again, then sure, make one of these guys GM and let him select the coach. However, I personally would much rather have an experienced coach at this point. I'd even rather have Fassel (I can't believe I just said that)[/quote]

Well, this is the danger of going after experienced guys like the three you mentioned. Because all have proven success rates as NFL head coaches. But Shanahan doesn't want to come back as just head coach and his record as a personnel man is not all that much better (if at all) than VC's; Holmgren seems to want to be Bill Parcells and not coach at all and if he agreed to coach he'd probably want to GM as well-and he hasn't shown he can be too successful in a dual role.

And then there's Cowher who has no experience in the dual role.

All I'm saying is what's better-Mike Shanahan as both Head Coach and GM or say Eric DeCosta as GM, Russ Grimm as HC, and Charlie Weis as offensive coordinator (just to throw some names out there)?

Re: Our next coach??
 

^ I'll take the 2nd choice.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;633264]Given the caliber of experienced HC talent out there, i wouldn't gamble on Shanahan, Holmgren, or Cowher wanting to work for any of these guys. Now, if you want to go with a young, unproven coach again, then sure, make one of these guys GM and let him select the coach. However, I personally would much rather have an experienced coach at this point. [B]I'd even rather have Fassel (I can't believe I just said that)[/B][/quote]

Why can't you believe you just said that? For the life of me, I cannot understand the deep-rooted hatred some people have for Jim Fassel.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=53Fan;633280]^ I'll take the 2nd choice.[/quote]

I'll second that too.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Beemnseven;633305]Why can't you believe you just said that? For the life of me, I cannot understand the deep-rooted hatred some people have for Jim Fassel.[/quote]

He sucks! That's why he is coaching in the UFL.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;633311]He sucks! That's why he is coaching in the UFL.[/quote]

Ahh, yes. The powerful, convincing, "He sucks" argument...

Let's see, a coach of the year award, guided his team to the Super Bowl, a conference championship, 3 playoff appearances, and a 24-17-1 record vs. the NFC East.

Not even close to sucking. Try again.

Re: Our next coach??
 

Fassel deserves a 2nd shot in this league. He had a 58-53-1 record with the Giants (and a 5-2 playoff mark) and got them to a Super Bowl.

There have been far worse coaches that have had 2nd chances, so why not Fassel??

(I'm not saying I'd want him, but why shouldn't he get another shot with someone?)

Re: Our next coach??
 

he should get a shot... but not with us

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Mattyk72;633318]Fassel deserves a 2nd shot in this league. He had a 58-53-1 record with the Giants (and a 5-2 playoff mark) and got them to a Super Bowl.

There have been far worse coaches that have had 2nd chances, so why not Fassel??

(I'm not saying I'd want him, but why shouldn't he get another shot with someone?)[/quote]

Sure why not.....there's the

Browns
Buffalo
Panthers
Buccaneer's
Texans (now this would be a good spot for him)
Rams
Raiders (another good spot for him, let him prove he can coach)

Re: Our next coach??
 

From all the scuttlebutt about coaches doesn't look like we will land a big name. Gruden is staying in the booth, Dungy isn't coming back it seems. Cowher is the only one that hasn't really said anything thus far. Personally, I am not sure these guys want to deal with Snyder and the FO situation.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SBXVII;633197]DS is the guru at changing peoples mind. Which is why I still hold out a smidgen of hope everyone gets snatched up and he's left with Marty, but I am now believing there is most likely a verbal agreement already in place with Shanahan. Just a feeling. Otherwise DS would be panicking about teams that have already called him to meat with him. Cerrato and Zorn would already be fired and DS would have Redskins1 enroute to pick him up.[/quote]
It's possible Shanahan is expressing interest just to drive up his salary or see who really wants him/will let him do his thing. I mean I didn't hear anything about his visits afterwards, typically there won't be much until after the season anyways but who knows.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;633275]

All I'm saying is what's better-Mike Shanahan as both Head Coach and GM or say Eric DeCosta as GM, Russ Grimm as HC, and Charlie Weis as offensive coordinator (just to throw some names out there)?[/quote]
Do you think Grimm is an HC candidate anywhere in the league?

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=tryfuhl;633366]Do you think Grimm is an HC candidate anywhere in the league?[/quote]

Well, his name is often mentioned and I'm sure it will be again. He has some knocks against him but I'm sure he'll be a leading candidate in a few places.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Beemnseven;633317]Ahh, yes. The powerful, convincing, "He sucks" argument...

Let's see, a coach of the year award, guided his team to the Super Bowl, a conference championship, 3 playoff appearances, and a 24-17-1 record vs. the NFC East.

Not even close to sucking. Try again.[/quote]

I think you and I are part of the limited minority when it comes to Fassel. Of the final candidates for the job in 2008, I think Fassel would have been the best choice. He's developed two Super Bowl winning QBs in John Elway and Phil Simms, Kerry Collins had his best seasons as a QB when he played under Fassel. As has been mentioned, he's taken a team to the Super Bowl. And he knows how to deal with big-time media and intense scrutiny, having coached in New York...and his UFL team just won the championship.

There are certainly better options than Fassel but I don't understand why he gets such a bad rap either Beems. I can't understand why we so quickly dismiss the likes of Fassel, Fisher, and Schottenheimer because they've never won a Super Bowl in spite of all their success overall as head coaches in the NFL...yet we clamor for the likes of Cam Cameron, who could be just fine his second time around but hasn't accomplished nearly what the others have.

All that said, I'm thinking of jumping on the Gary Kubiak bandwagon. I know Tripp-clock management. But anyway, let the Texans have Mike Shanahan as GM/HC and give us Kubiak

Re: Our next coach??
 

I'm with you on Fassel, at least. Brian Billick, too. Both would be good choices, better than Shanahan.

Of course, with Gruden out of the mix, I'm much more inclined to push for another first-time head coach. Like Ron Rivera.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;633391]I think you and I are part of the limited minority when it comes to Fassel. Of the final candidates for the job in 2008, I think Fassel would have been the best choice. He's developed two Super Bowl winning QBs in John Elway and Phil Simms, Kerry Collins had his best seasons as a QB when he played under Fassel. As has been mentioned, he's taken a team to the Super Bowl. And he knows how to deal with big-time media and intense scrutiny, having coached in New York...and his UFL team just won the championship.

There are certainly better options than Fassel but I don't understand why he gets such a bad rap either Beems. I can't understand why we so quickly dismiss the likes of Fassel, Fisher, and Schottenheimer because they've never won a Super Bowl in spite of all their success overall as head coaches in the NFL...yet we clamor for the likes of Cam Cameron, who could be just fine his second time around but hasn't accomplished nearly what the others have.

All that said, I'm thinking of jumping on the Gary Kubiak bandwagon. I know Tripp-clock management. But anyway, let the Texans have Mike Shanahan as GM/HC and give us Kubiak[/quote]

I think we'd be much better off right now had we hired Fassel as HC and kept Zorn at OC.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Mattyk72;633395]I think we'd be much better off right now had we hired Fassel as HC and kept Zorn at OC.[/quote]

I agree. However, I think we'd just be mediocre (see Fassel's record) as opposed to putrid (see Zorn's record). In the long run, this might have been the best way to go - if things hit rock bottom, snyder will have no choice but to effect real change.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;633275]Well, this is the danger of going after experienced guys like the three you mentioned. Because all have proven success rates as NFL head coaches. But Shanahan doesn't want to come back as just head coach and his record as a personnel man is not all that much better (if at all) than VC's; Holmgren seems to want to be Bill Parcells and not coach at all and if he agreed to coach he'd probably want to GM as well-and he hasn't shown he can be too successful in a dual role.

And then there's Cowher who has no experience in the dual role.

All I'm saying is what's better-Mike Shanahan as both Head Coach and GM or say Eric DeCosta as GM, Russ Grimm as HC, and Charlie Weis as offensive coordinator (just to throw some names out there)?[/quote]

By all appearances, Holmgren will be announced as the Seahawks GM any day now, so I think we can essentially remove him from the list of candidates for any role with this team (if we hadnt already done so.)

Regarding Shanahan, i haven't definitively read that he wants total control himself. Is it confirmed? My impression is that he may just want to pick his front office staff, similar to what Cowher is reportedly looking for. However, if either of them wants total control, i think we should pass.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=GTripp0012;633393]I'm with you on Fassel, at least. Brian Billick, too. Both would be good choices, better than Shanahan.

Of course, with Gruden out of the mix, I'm much more inclined to push for another first-time head coach. Like Ron Rivera.[/quote]

Would the team necessarily need/want an offensive head coach given the problems they've had on that side of the ball?

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;633429]By all appearances, Holmgren will be announced as the Seahawks GM any day now, so I think we can essentially remove him from the list of candidates for any role with this team (if we hadnt already done so.)

Regarding Shanahan, i haven't definitively read that he wants total control himself. Is it confirmed? My impression is that he may just want to pick his front office staff, similar to what Cowher is reportedly looking for. However, if either of them wants total control, i think we should pass.[/quote]

Shanahan would probably pick a General Manager but that person will be more of a coordinator/organizer who will compile the information kind of like Heckert does for Reid in Philly, or even the Broncos had with Ted Sundquist. It was Shanahan's team but Sundquist had the title of GM.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;633440]Shanahan would probably pick a General Manager but that person will be more of a coordinator/organizer who will compile the information kind of like Heckert does for Reid in Philly, or even the Broncos had with Ted Sundquist. It was Shanahan's team but Sundquist had the title of GM.[/quote]

Well the only positive thing I could say about Shanahan here in that scenario is that Shanahan would be making the final call on player acquisitions instead of Snyderatto and he'd have the sense to draft offensive linemen in the first two rounds every now and then. I'd rather Shanahan have a "puppet GM" than Snyder to continue to use Vinny as his.

Of course, the same thing could be said if we had a true GM - Snyder wouldnt be the one making the decisions anymore.

Re: Our next coach??
 

My issues with Fassel revolve around how he coached in New York. Oh don't get me wrong the players loved him. He's a players coach. I just never saw him as a coach that would take a team to the SB and even said that when he was a coach. His play calls were not that great and the actaul plays were not that great. Meaning it was a bland offense. They always won close games.

My second issue is that he is a players coach. I think we need more of a disciplinarian right now. Someone like a Marty or Cowher, maybe Grimm would fill that roll nicely.

Billick never had a decent offense. He's the head coach. It's his duty to make sure it works and I think either it was his system that failed and he wouldn't admit it or his loyalty to whoever was supposed to make the offense work. Fire them and bring in someone who would have fixed the problem but he didn't. Our major issues right now are offense and we are looking at two ex-HC's who had mediocre offenses.

I only like Shanahan cause the O-lines were great in Denver. Great blocking scheme's. Great pass blocking scheme's. He's not my first choice though cause he does not strike me as a disciplinarian.

Although winning fixes everything. We start winning with whoever and everyone will be happy. Some of us might be asking which is the best way to eat crow.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;633455]Well the only positive thing I could say about Shanahan here in that scenario is that Shanahan would be making the final call on player acquisitions instead of Snyderatto and he'd have the sense to draft offensive linemen in the first two rounds every now and then. I'd rather Shanahan have a "puppet GM" than Snyder to continue to use Vinny as his.

Of course, the same thing could be said if we had a true GM - Snyder wouldnt be the one making the decisions anymore.[/quote]

I think maybe once, perhaps twice, in 10 years did Shanahan and the Broncos draft offensive linemen in the first two rounds

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SBXVII;633461]My issues with Fassel revolve around how he coached in New York. Oh don't get me wrong the players loved him. He's a players coach. [B]I just never saw him as a coach that would take a team to the SB and even said that when he was a coach.[/B] His play calls were not that great and the actaul plays were not that great. Meaning it was a bland offense. They always won close games.

My second issue is that he is a players coach. I think we need more of a disciplinarian right now. Someone like a Marty or Cowher, maybe Grimm would fill that roll nicely.

[B]Billick never had a decent offense[/B]. He's the head coach. It's his duty to make sure it works and I think either it was his system that failed and he wouldn't admit it or his loyalty to whoever was supposed to make the offense work. Fire them and bring in someone who would have fixed the problem but he didn't. Our major issues right now are offense and we are looking at two ex-HC's who had mediocre offenses.

I only like Shanahan cause the O-lines were great in Denver. Great blocking scheme's. Great pass blocking scheme's. He's not my first choice though cause he does not strike me as a disciplinarian.

Although winning fixes everything. We start winning with whoever and everyone will be happy. Some of us might be asking which is the best way to eat crow.[/quote]

Except that Fassel did take a team to the SB :confused:

Check Billick's offenses in Minnesota.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;633391]There are certainly better options than Fassel but I don't understand why he gets such a bad rap either Beems. I can't understand why we so quickly dismiss the likes of Fassel, Fisher, and Schottenheimer because they've never won a Super Bowl in spite of all their success overall as head coaches in the NFL...[B]yet we clamor for the likes of Cam Cameron[/B], who could be just fine his second time around but hasn't accomplished nearly what the others have.[/quote]

Don't forget Jim Harbaugh too.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;633470]I think maybe once, perhaps twice, in 10 years did Shanahan and the Broncos draft offensive linemen in the first two rounds[/quote]

Well thats a better record thatn we've had here. besides, Denver always had potent offenses under shanahan, so their line was not holding them back. In fact, thier line always seemed to be among the best in the NFL... although i'm not sure smaller, more agile linemen would be as effective in this division. We need big guys to counter the defensive lines in the East.