Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=Rainy Parade;700775]i'm pissed that our federal dollars first paid to destroy iraq, and then paid to rebuild it.

why not rebuild New Orleans (and baltimore and detroit and cleveland and DC and...) first?[/quote]

And you have that right if thats the way you feel. Maybe you should call Obama and tell him its time to bring the troops home like he promised his supporters he would do.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=SBXVII;700781]I'll second that. I know pulling out of Iraq would have caused us issues in the future. But if Iraq does not have money then they can find a way to pay us some other way. Hell when sanctions were put in place China and France continued trade for oil. I don't see why it would be a problem to be reimbursed in oil.[/quote]

I thought the war was over oil. I guess that was not the case after all.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

Until such time that we make it unattractive to come to this country illegally....more of the same.
Until such time the Fed has the balls to....get serious about closing our borders and make it unattractive to come here illegally....more of the same.
More lip service and snake oil...more of the same

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=Hog1;700786]Until such time that we make it unattractive to come to this country illegally....more of the same.
Until such time the Fed has the balls to....get serious about closing our borders and make it unattractive to come here illegally....more of the same.
More lip service and snake oil...more of the same[/quote]

You are correct but the feds won't do anything because they want their vote. All this law in AZ is going to do is drive the illegals to boarder states or maybe even deeper into other states.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=Mattyk;700774]So you're in favor of opening people up to legal abuse and discrimination? You would really want to open that can of worms?

I really don't care how someone gets here, they should be allowed the same basic protections that everyone else has.[/quote]

Yes. Basically your saying that some one who does not live here, has no ties to this country, has not vested in this government, should be able to step off a plane, step onto a beach, cross a boarder, or step off a boat and instantly they are given the same rights as you whom I presume are a citizen?

I'm not picking on one culture. I'm talking Russian, Chineese, African, Scottish, Irish, Canadian. I refering to all illegal immigrants. On a side note how would you feel having 15 to 20 people crossing a river onto your property every night (trespassing)? Maybe stealing your property occassionally? Maybe peeking into your house at night? Maybe stealing a chicken here and there to cook for food? maybe simply just causing your dog to bark between the hours of 1am and 5am waking you up every other night.

Thats not even speaking of the strain illegals are putting on hospitals. They don't have jobs or insurance so the hospitals treat them then have to right off the cost. Gues who pays that? we all do cause the Gov. reimburses the hospital for their cost.

How about when illegals for whatever reason are allowed to have loans for houses and when they can't pay they simply forclose and move on to the next home using a different name? Our banks are hurting due to this issue also. I can tell you I had 3-4 homes in this situation in my neighborhood.

These are just a few issues. There are a whole mess more. What happens the illegals when they become old and need more attention? ie; put in a nursing home, food stamps, retirment? Where will their retirement come from? They are not putting into social security cause they don't have a social security number or green card number.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=Hog1;700786]Until such time that we make it unattractive to come to this country illegally....more of the same.
Until such time the Fed has the balls to....get serious about closing our borders and make it unattractive to come here illegally....more of the same.
More lip service and snake oil...more of the same[/quote]

Why couldn't we make it easier to come, harder to stay. Here's what I mean. Basically, excluding convicted felons and a small portion of truly undesirables, offer 3 year entry permits-that must be renewed yearly- to nearly every Central American. Have a requirement that by year 3 they must show that they have a valid productive job for atleast 18 months, regardless of pay (maybe have a minimum but maybe not). If not then the visa expires, and they can reapply for entry in 5 years, if yes then the visa would be extended to a 5 year visa, and they would be eligible for citizenship at the end of those 5 years. Further restrictions, marriage and childbirth would not be ways to gain automatic citizenship during the first 3 year visa.

This would:
a) live up to the Statue of Liberty
b) offer a way for people to find a better life
c) reduce illegal border entry
d) offer verifiable records for nearly every immigrant.
e) increase the effectiveness of border patrols and customs
f) restrict loopholes for people once they are here legally.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=SBXVII;700777]Totally understand. I'll apologize for my looking like a redneck idiot to you. lol. I honestly don't know what the answer is and I'm sure thats what the issue is with the feds. Better to put their heads in the sand and not see it then try to tackle it and piss off anyone.

I just don't see how its fair that we, you and I, being born here in America, have the same rights as the illegal who steps across the boarder two min. from now? I especially don't see how its fair that some individuals put their name on a list and actually wait the waiting period, which is like 10 yrs, and are allowed to come into the country legally have no different rights then the illegal who steps across the boarder illegally? What incentive is there to be a good immigrant and follow rules when the rules don't apply to everyone? I know many of legal immigrants who are pissed at the illegals.

On a side note do you care to share your oppinion or perhaps your parents oppinion?[/quote]


I think that is the point! I am an American citizen as my dad who was allowed in the country being Cuban, since our government does not like Castro! My mother has been here over 40 years and is a nautralized citizen and we are not from Arizona!........but..... since my folks and family and I for that matter speak Spanish and look Hispanic we will be bothered by this law and our rights taken away regardless of how many years here.

This is a discussion... I do not get offended easy...your good!

I do not look like a mexican but look very cuban as some cubans can be very light skin (as I ) and others dark skin who look african american.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;700780]I realize this is completely off topic, but are you pissed off that our federal dollars first paid to destroy Germany (firebombing Dresden anyone) and Japan(Hiroshima/firebombing Tokyo) and then paid to rebuild it(40 years of NATO subsidies/SEATO ) [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan"]how did those work out for the world and for us?[/URL]
Last I checked we do send a ton of federal money to each of the cities you mentioned, plus every other one in the country.[/quote]

LOL, that does kinda tick me off. I thought Germany was rebuilt with UN money. Japan might have been a different story. I do get mad that we rebuilt Japan and they surpassed us in electronics. lol.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=SBXVII;700791]Yes. Basically your saying that some one who does not live here, has no ties to this country, has not vested in this government, should be able to step off a plane, step onto a beach, cross a boarder, or step off a boat and instantly they are given the same rights as you whom I presume are a citizen?

I'm not picking on one culture. I'm talking Russian, Chineese, African, Scottish, Irish, Canadian. I refering to all illegal immigrants. On a side note how would you feel having 15 to 20 people crossing a river onto your property every night (trespassing)? Maybe stealing your property occassionally? Maybe peeking into your house at night? Maybe stealing a chicken here and there to cook for food? maybe simply just causing your dog to bark between the hours of 1am and 5am waking you up every other night.

Thats not even speaking of the strain illegals are putting on hospitals. They don't have jobs or insurance so the hospitals treat them then have to right off the cost. Gues who pays that? we all do cause the Gov. reimburses the hospital for their cost.

How about when illegals for whatever reason are allowed to have loans for houses and when they can't pay they simply forclose and move on to the next home using a different name? Our banks are hurting due to this issue also. I can tell you I had 3-4 homes in this situation in my neighborhood.

These are just a few issues. There are a whole mess more. What happens the illegals when they become old and need more attention? ie; put in a nursing home, food stamps, retirment? Where will their retirement come from? They are not putting into social security cause they don't have a social security number or green card number.[/quote]

I'm talking about universal rights protecting them against abuse and discrimination. So again, you're in favor of legal abuse and discrimination?

With the amount of illegals already here, hope you would be ready for a little 'ol social unrest, to put it lightly.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;700792]Why couldn't we make it easier to come, harder to stay. Here's what I mean. Basically, excluding convicted felons and a small portion of truly undesirables, offer 3 year entry permits-that must be renewed yearly- to nearly every Central American. Have a requirement that by year 3 they must show that they have a valid productive job for atleast 18 months, regardless of pay (maybe have a minimum but maybe not). If not then the visa expires, and they can reapply for entry in 5 years, if yes then the visa would be extended to a 5 year visa, and they would be eligible for citizenship at the end of those 5 years. Further restrictions, marriage and childbirth would not be ways to gain automatic citizenship during the first 3 year visa.

This would:
a) live up to the Statue of Liberty
b) offer a way for people to find a better life
c) reduce illegal border entry
d) offer verifiable records for nearly every immigrant.
e) increase the effectiveness of border patrols and customs
f) restrict loopholes for people once they are here legally.[/quote]

I'm all for it. It MUST be unattractive to come here illegally.
If you do you will:
NOT be able to get a job...anywhere
NOT be able to get benefits of ANY kind
Your children born here will NOT be considered US nationals
BE deported...etc
On the flip side, it should be made as easy as possible to immigrate legally.

On an indirect sidetrack...population in this country is going to have to be addressed..that should be fun

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=Hog1;700805]

On an indirect sidetrack...population in this country is going to have to be addressed..that should be fun[/quote]


killing all the Cowboys fans would certainly be a good start.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=Hog1;700805]I'm all for it. It MUST be unattractive to come here illegally.
If you do you will:
NOT be able to get a job...anywhere
NOT be able to get benefits of ANY kind
Your children born here will NOT be considered US nationals
BE deported...etc
On the flip side, [B]it should be made as easy as possible to immigrate legally[/B].

On an indirect sidetrack...population in this country is going to have to be addressed..that should be fun[/quote]

Ok, so we make it real easy to become a legal citizen and then they become even a bigger burden on the system. From what I read most that come here illegaly are uneducated and thus have a limited means to make a good income. Now that they are legal it is much easier to access federal programs and cost us even moor money. It said the more educated, non violient, etc... are more likely to come here through illegal means. We have to make it somewhat of a long process or all we will get crossing is a bunch of dumb asses who will milk the system. I think we allready have enough of US citizens doing that now.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=firstdown;700818]Ok, so we make it real easy to become a legal citizen and then they become even a bigger burden on the system. From what I read most that come here illegaly are uneducated and thus have a limited means to make a good income. Now that they are legal it is much easier to access federal programs and cost us even moor money. It said the more educated, non violient, etc... are more likely to come here through illegal means. We have to make it somewhat of a long process or all we will get crossing is a bunch of dumb asses who will milk the system. I think we allready have enough of US citizens doing that now.[/quote]

Umm we already go this kind from England in the 1700's. LOL!!!!!

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=firstdown;700818]Ok, so we make it real easy to become a legal citizen and then they become even a bigger burden on the system. From what I read most that come here illegaly are uneducated and thus have a limited means to make a good income. Now that they are legal it is much easier to access federal programs and cost us even moor money. It said the more educated, non violient, etc... are more likely to come here through illegal means. We have to make it somewhat of a long process or all we will get crossing is a bunch of dumb asses who will milk the system. I think we allready have enough of US citizens doing that now.[/quote]


my grandparents and father-in-law were uneducated immigrants. they didn't were non-violent and didn't commit crimes and didn't milk the system.

so, lucky for you, i'm here!

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=firstdown;700784]I thought the war was over oil. I guess that was not the case after all.[/quote]

Funny, I thought the war was over a country snubbing the UN on several occassions and failing to abide by the ruling.

Whether there was or was not WMD's was a side issue. No there was no nukes but they did have long range missles they were not supposed to have pluse nerve agents. So in essence Sadam was in the wrong.

If it was about oil, where is all the free oil we should be reaping the benifits from after taking over the country and fixing the oil wells? I would presume that if it was about oil we would be getting oil at less then advertised cost per barrel. right? since we are in control of it now?

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;700792]Why couldn't we make it easier to come, harder to stay. Here's what I mean. Basically, excluding convicted felons and a small portion of truly undesirables, offer 3 year entry permits-that must be renewed yearly- to nearly every Central American. Have a requirement that by year 3 they must show that they have a valid productive job for atleast 18 months, regardless of pay (maybe have a minimum but maybe not). If not then the visa expires, and they can reapply for entry in 5 years, if yes then the visa would be extended to a 5 year visa, and they would be eligible for citizenship at the end of those 5 years. Further restrictions, marriage and childbirth would not be ways to gain automatic citizenship during the first 3 year visa.

This would:
a) live up to the Statue of Liberty
b) offer a way for people to find a better life
c) reduce illegal border entry
d) offer verifiable records for nearly every immigrant.
e) increase the effectiveness of border patrols and customs
f) restrict loopholes for people once they are here legally.[/quote]

For Dominicans they get same treatment as Cubans.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=2BIG2BSKINNY;700793]I think that is the point! I am an American citizen as my dad who was allowed in the country being Cuban, since our government does not like Castro! My mother has been here over 40 years and is a nautralized citizen and we are not from Arizona!........but..... since my folks and family and I for that matter speak Spanish and look Hispanic we will be bothered by this law and our rights taken away regardless of how many years here.

This is a discussion... I do not get offended easy...your good!

I do not look like a mexican but look very cuban as some cubans can be very light skin (as I ) and others dark skin who look african american.[/quote]

As I said prior. I think, with my oppinions only and looking at it as if "illegals" don't have rights, there would be a lot of trampling on honest citizens rights. I agreed with this and even said I could see the "legal" citizens having a legitimate complaint if they are constantly being stopped and questions.

It's hard to make a rule saying all illegal immigrants can be stopped and questioned about status but how do you tell the difference from the legals and illegals. I agree the Arizona law might not be fair or even legal. What I'm refering to though is if and when the police finally determine if someone is illegal, then and only then should they not be treated as an American. I don't think the police should be walking up and down the street asking latino's if they have papers, cause now we would be the Nazis. But if the police find out after a traffic stop or during an arrest then all bets are off.

I just can't see how America can open its boarder and say come one come all. Not everyone would come but I'm betting we would have a flood of immigrants. Everyone knows America is the place to come to for jobs, money, and upward mobility.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=Mattyk;700797]I'm talking about universal rights protecting them against abuse and discrimination. So again, you're in favor of legal abuse and discrimination?

With the amount of illegals already here, hope you would be ready for a little 'ol social unrest, to put it lightly.[/quote]

Abuse? ok that falls under human rights. You can't mistreat them. No physical abuse and no starving.

Discrimination? Harder one to answer. but as long as the gov. treats all illegals the same then there should be no issue.

Again, I agree with the fact that American Latino's would be harrassed and probably bullied. I guess what I'm saying is I could see just like the seat belt laws of virginia, it's not a primary offense its a secondary offense. The police can't pull someone over for not wearing their seatbelt, but if they are breaking another law and get stopped then the police can ticket them for not having their seatbelt on.

I don't agree with the police walking around checking paper on everyone they decide to check, but if the police should happen to pull a car over and while asking for identification they learn the individual is illegal then they should be arrested and shipped back to their country.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=Rainy Parade;700812]killing all the Cowboys fans would certainly be a good start.[/quote]

Intersting coming from a Raider fan. Hmmm. I'm beginning to like you more and more.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=firstdown;700818]Ok, so we make it real easy to become a legal citizen and then they become even a bigger burden on the system. From what I read most that come here illegaly are uneducated and thus have a limited means to make a good income. Now that they are legal it is much easier to access federal programs and cost us even moor money. It said the more educated, non violient, etc... are more likely to come here through illegal means. We have to make it somewhat of a long process or all we will get crossing is a bunch of dumb asses who will milk the system. I think we allready have enough of US citizens doing that now.[/quote]

Let me ask you this, isn't it already a law that legal immigrants have like 10 yrs to become citizens? meaning taking the big test or they are shipped back to their country?

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=SBXVII;700825]Intersting coming from [B]a Raider fan[/B]. Hmmm. I'm beginning to like you more and more.[/quote]


i really hope that was sarcasm.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=SBXVII;700827]Let me ask you this, isn't it already a law that legal immigrants have like 10 yrs to become citizens? meaning taking the big test or they are shipped back to their country?[/quote]

I'm not sure how long it takes for them to become a citizen but I have heard it takes yrs (ten yrs stands out). I was responding to why we should not fast track the system.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=2BIG2BSKINNY;700761]Hey I know that this issue has very many views and it affects different people different ways... My brother and I are Musicians and have made a song about this issue (not playful) and would like for you all to listen to it.

[URL="http://www.reverbnation.com/play_now/song_2841781"]"Keep Us Down (produced by KB)" by BIGGADENLYPHE (Bigger Than Life)[/URL]

Tell me what you think... I trust that my fellow skins fans can handle things like adults!

Thanks in advance for taking the time to listen to the tracks.

You can listen to more of our music at
[URL="http://www.reverbnation.com/#/biggadenlyphe"]ReverbNation[/URL][/quote]Not a bad track.

I disagree with a lot of the premises and statements though. I really wish everyone would read the law before commenting on it. I posted the text of the law in Post # 26. This law is about enforcing existing laws on the books and shutting down sanctuary cities, not racial profiling.

I think the separation of "brown/black" vs. white is wrong. This is exactly what the powers that be want to see continue. As with most issues the politicans, CEOs (not all are rich Republicans, many are rich Democrats), and activists who head groups that receive gov't grants (environemental/community/etc.) all want this separation to continue so the free-for-all with our tax dollars when their appropriate party comes into power will continue. When we're bickering amongst ourselves and pointing fingers at each other for America's problems, we aren't looking at the folks who are really the cause of our problems.....our gov't and the groups that sustain themselves off it unfairly.

If we (as in the American people, all races) ever get our $hit together and realize we're being taken for a ride by these guys, then we can put a stop to it (if we don't, divided we fall). Don't forget the gov't spending spree that began under Bush 2 and has accelerated dramatically under Obama will hit the middle/lower classes hardest when the bills come due and our gov't spending is no longer sustainable (within the next few years). A VAT tax will proportionally hurt the middle/lower class (regardless of race) harder than the top 5%. Increased utility taxes embedded in our utility bills due to cap-n-trade and other environmental legislation will hit the middle/lower class harder. Increases in SS & Medicare percentages will hurt the middle/lower class and small business owners harder than CEOs, and politicians will exempt themselves. What is needed is fundamental tax reform (FairTax, flat tax, something of that nature) to take some of the control over exemptions and how tax deductions are distributed out of the politican's hands. It reduces their power on the collection side. They can still spend funds, but will be forced to scale back because if they have to implement a percentage increase on everyone, not just a select few, there will be greater backlash.

The "spread the wealth" comment I completely disagree with. Who gets to decide how the wealth is "spread around"? I'm not in the top 5% , but I'm doing OK to take care of my family. I work a full-time job and run a small business (65+ hour work weeks). Why should the money I earned from my hard work to take care of my family be taken (at an even more disproportionate rate than it is now), by the gov't and given to others, be they gov't employees, military contractors, recepients of social programs, or foreign gov'ts, or whatever?

Let's say your music takes off and you become successful at it (you may already be, I don't know) but not a millionaire. Is it fair that you should be taxed at a total rate of over 50% (not just Fed, all taxes) on your hard work and talent when others that haven't taken the initiative/risks you did pay nothng or almost nothing?

Just some stuff to think about. I get it, the target audience of the music isn't middle-aged white dudes, but I just wish we could all clear up misconceptions in our society and work together to tackle our country's problems.....yes, I'm the eternal optimist....sigh.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=Rainy Parade;700812]killing all the Cowboys fans would certainly be a good start.[/quote]
YOU are a prophet.........

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=firstdown;700818]Ok, so we make it real easy to become a legal citizen and then they become even a bigger burden on the system. From what I read most that come here illegaly are uneducated and thus have a limited means to make a good income. Now that they are legal it is much easier to access federal programs and cost us even moor money. It said the more educated, non violient, etc... are more likely to come here through illegal means. We have to make it somewhat of a long process or all we will get crossing is a bunch of dumb asses who will milk the system. I think we allready have enough of US citizens doing that now.[/quote]

Sooo...you like the current "pass through border" program better?
AND we may have to slam the borders closed to immigration altogether? BUT, if we have effectively gained control of the borders...we could do that at will. Currently we have NO such option.
First, eliminate the attraction for illegals to come here. Add in a job ammendment such as CRedskins suggested through which some tax money might be generated and some of these Federal programs that get abused will be at least partially paid for. Because we now have legal immigrants.
Philosophically IMO, one of the largest problems the US faces is pissin' somebody off. We are no longer able to do what is necessary for the greater good of the whole for fear of making a particular group...mad?

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=Hog1;700866]Sooo...you like the current "pass through border" program better?
AND we may have to slam the borders closed to immigration altogether? BUT, if we have effectively gained control of the borders...we could do that at will. Currently we have NO such option.
First, eliminate the attraction for illegals to come here. Add in a job ammendment such as CRedskins suggested through which some tax money might be generated and some of these Federal programs that get abused will be at least partially paid for. Because we now have legal immigrants.
Philosophically IMO, one of the largest problems the US faces is pissin' somebody off. We are no longer able to do what is necessary for the greater good of the whole for fear of making a particular group...mad?[/quote]

this makes too much sense for our current politicians :(

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=Rainy Parade;700829]i really hope that was sarcasm.[/quote]

I'm guessing it wasn't

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;700847]Not a bad track.

I disagree with a lot of the premises and statements though. I really wish everyone would read the law before commenting on it. I posted the text of the law in Post # 26. This law is about enforcing existing laws on the books and shutting down sanctuary cities, not racial profiling.

I think the separation of "brown/black" vs. white is wrong. This is exactly what the powers that be want to see continue. As with most issues the politicans, CEOs (not all are rich Republicans, many are rich Democrats), and activists who head groups that receive gov't grants (environemental/community/etc.) all want this separation to continue so the free-for-all with our tax dollars when their appropriate party comes into power will continue. When we're bickering amongst ourselves and pointing fingers at each other for America's problems, we aren't looking at the folks who are really the cause of our problems.....our gov't and the groups that sustain themselves off it unfairly.

If we (as in the American people, all races) ever get our $hit together and realize we're being taken for a ride by these guys, then we can put a stop to it (if we don't, divided we fall). Don't forget the gov't spending spree that began under Bush 2 and has accelerated dramatically under Obama will hit the middle/lower classes hardest when the bills come due and our gov't spending is no longer sustainable (within the next few years). A VAT tax will proportionally hurt the middle/lower class (regardless of race) harder than the top 5%. Increased utility taxes embedded in our utility bills due to cap-n-trade and other environmental legislation will hit the middle/lower class harder. Increases in SS & Medicare percentages will hurt the middle/lower class and small business owners harder than CEOs, and politicians will exempt themselves. What is needed is fundamental tax reform (FairTax, flat tax, something of that nature) to take some of the control over exemptions and how tax deductions are distributed out of the politican's hands. It reduces their power on the collection side. They can still spend funds, but will be forced to scale back because if they have to implement a percentage increase on everyone, not just a select few, there will be greater backlash.

The "spread the wealth" comment I completely disagree with. Who gets to decide how the wealth is "spread around"? I'm not in the top 5% , but I'm doing OK to take care of my family. I work a full-time job and run a small business (65+ hour work weeks). Why should the money I earned from my hard work to take care of my family be taken (at an even more disproportionate rate than it is now), by the gov't and given to others, be they gov't employees, military contractors, recepients of social programs, or foreign gov'ts, or whatever?

Let's say your music takes off and you become successful at it (you may already be, I don't know) but not a millionaire. Is it fair that you should be taxed at a total rate of over 50% (not just Fed, all taxes) on your hard work and talent when others that haven't taken the initiative/risks you did pay nothng or almost nothing?

Just some stuff to think about. I get it, the target audience of the music isn't middle-aged white dudes, but I just wish we could all clear up misconceptions in our society and work together to tackle our country's problems.....yes, I'm the eternal optimist....sigh.[/quote]


Thank you for taking the time to listen to the track!

I understand that this is a issue that is not very easy to fix!
There are several issues that you may not agree with...

as minorities we need (hispanics) to draw from the experience and get unity from the African Americans... if for nothing else then it helps our numbers so that we get a voice.

It is not going to be a quick fix to this immigration problem as action on either side of this debate leads to more potential problems.

I just don't like the way it is being handled now!

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;700847]Not a bad track.

I disagree with a lot of the premises and statements though. I really wish everyone would read the law before commenting on it. I posted the text of the law in Post # 26. This law is about enforcing existing laws on the books and shutting down sanctuary cities, not racial profiling.

I think the separation of "brown/black" vs. white is wrong. This is exactly what the powers that be want to see continue. As with most issues the politicans, CEOs (not all are rich Republicans, many are rich Democrats), and activists who head groups that receive gov't grants (environemental/community/etc.) all want this separation to continue so the free-for-all with our tax dollars when their appropriate party comes into power will continue. When we're bickering amongst ourselves and pointing fingers at each other for America's problems, we aren't looking at the folks who are really the cause of our problems.....our gov't and the groups that sustain themselves off it unfairly.

If we (as in the American people, all races) ever get our $hit together and realize we're being taken for a ride by these guys, then we can put a stop to it (if we don't, divided we fall). Don't forget the gov't spending spree that began under Bush 2 and has accelerated dramatically under Obama will hit the middle/lower classes hardest when the bills come due and our gov't spending is no longer sustainable (within the next few years). A VAT tax will proportionally hurt the middle/lower class (regardless of race) harder than the top 5%. Increased utility taxes embedded in our utility bills due to cap-n-trade and other environmental legislation will hit the middle/lower class harder. Increases in SS & Medicare percentages will hurt the middle/lower class and small business owners harder than CEOs, and politicians will exempt themselves. What is needed is fundamental tax reform (FairTax, flat tax, something of that nature) to take some of the control over exemptions and how tax deductions are distributed out of the politican's hands. It reduces their power on the collection side. They can still spend funds, but will be forced to scale back because if they have to implement a percentage increase on everyone, not just a select few, there will be greater backlash.

The "spread the wealth" comment I completely disagree with. Who gets to decide how the wealth is "spread around"? I'm not in the top 5% , but I'm doing OK to take care of my family. I work a full-time job and run a small business (65+ hour work weeks). Why should the money I earned from my hard work to take care of my family be taken (at an even more disproportionate rate than it is now), by the gov't and given to others, be they gov't employees, military contractors, recepients of social programs, or foreign gov'ts, or whatever?

Let's say your music takes off and you become successful at it (you may already be, I don't know) but not a millionaire. Is it fair that you should be taxed at a total rate of over 50% (not just Fed, all taxes) on your hard work and talent when others that haven't taken the initiative/risks you did pay nothng or almost nothing?

Just some stuff to think about. I get it, the target audience of the music isn't middle-aged white dudes, but I just wish we could all clear up misconceptions in our society and work together to tackle our country's problems.....yes, I'm the eternal optimist....sigh.[/quote]

Actually Sammy spread the wealth is the chief function of all economic systems including capitalism. Don't let Rush bully you. If all wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few then we cease to be a democracy we wind up being a kingdom. Let's say one an individual accumulates a trillion dollars then something is truly wrong, he will essentially own everything. The system fails at that point. He will then have to euthanized.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

Taxes are a reality. Even Jesus said give Ceasar what's Ceasar's. I think it is cynical to boost up gullible people with the intoxicating idea of no taxes. There is a finite sum of money and it must be spread to the benefit of society, or we learn lesson of history (i.e. Mari antoinette etc etc). Having said that we are taxed too much though.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=Hog1;700866]Sooo...you like the current "pass through border" program better?
AND we may have to slam the borders closed to immigration altogether? BUT, if we have effectively gained control of the borders...we could do that at will. Currently we have NO such option.
First, eliminate the attraction for illegals to come here. Add in a job ammendment such as CRedskins suggested through which some tax money might be generated and some of these Federal programs that get abused will be at least partially paid for. Because we now have legal immigrants.
Philosophically IMO, one of the largest problems the US faces is pissin' somebody off. We are no longer able to do what is necessary for the greater good of the whole for fear of making a particular group...mad?[/quote]

Why change what happeend to our traditonal values, tradional way of doing the border thing? I thought it was about keeping our heritage the same. Why the radical change at the border? It worked for the founding fathers it should work for us, right?

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;700957]Taxes are a reality. Even Jesus said give Ceasar what's Ceasar's. I think it is cynical to boost up gullible people with the intoxicating idea of no taxes. There is a finite sum of money and it must be spread to the benefit of society, or we learn lesson of history (i.e. Mari antoinette etc etc). Having said that we are taxed too much though.[/quote]
WHO has said no taxes? The discussion would be what is appropriate government spending, and then you set taxes, levies, tariffs, and other fees to meet that. When the government yearly takes more than 50% of some of it's citizens earnings, I would say that has gone a bit overboard.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;700962]Why change what happeend to our traditonal values, tradional way of doing the border thing? I thought it was about keeping our heritage the same. Why the radical change at the border? It worked for the founding fathers it should work for us, right?[/quote]

We traditionally have been a very open society. It is only since the onset of gross overspending on government welfare that our borders have been an issue. When every person had to work for what they got, if more people came the better. Now that we have government safety nets, if people come simply to use those safety nets it overburdens our system.

See I can be as simplistic as you ;)

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;700962]It worked for the founding fathers it should work for us, right?[/quote]


they also had wooden teeth.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;700965]WHO has said no taxes? The discussion would be what is appropriate government spending, and then you set taxes, levies, tariffs, and other fees to meet that. When the government yearly takes more than 50% of some of it's citizens earnings, I would say that has gone a bit overboard.[/quote]


agree.... but the out-of-control defense spending needs to be in that discussion.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=2BIG2BSKINNY;700939]Thank you for taking the time to listen to the track!

I understand that this is a issue that is not very easy to fix!
There are several issues that you may not agree with...

as minorities we need (hispanics) to draw from the experience and get unity from the African Americans... if for nothing else then it helps our numbers so that we get a voice.

[B]It is not going to be a quick fix to this immigration problem as action on either side of this debate leads to more potential problems. [/B]

[B]I just don't like the way it is being handled now[/B]![/quote]Agree with you on that for sure. :food-smil

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;700945]Actually Sammy spread the wealth is the chief function of all economic systems including capitalism. Don't let Rush bully you. If all wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few then we cease to be a democracy we wind up being a kingdom. Let's say one an individual accumulates a trillion dollars then something is truly wrong, he will essentially own everything. The system fails at that point. He will then have to euthanized.[/quote]You are wrong....about...a....great...many....things.....young jedi.

1) "Spreading the wealth" or wealth redistribution is not a function of any economic system. The only entitiy that would redistribute wealth is one with the ability to do so (guns, jails, etc.)....the gov't. The function of federal gov't should be providing for national defense, certain nationwide infrastructure projects, courts, limited regulation of businesses, and not much more (that's why we have states). What is not a function of gov't is to take personal property from one group simply because of how much money they make and give it to others in the form of govt' payments in one form or another. There should be a uniform percentage of tax on all, with the very poor exempt. Those who make more money will pay more into that system because x % of $ 150K is more than x % of $ 50K.

Do you think it's fair that 47% of households in the U.S. pay no federal taxes? Is it fair that the top 10% paid about 73 percent of the income taxes collected by the federal government? Is it fair that the bottom 40%, on average, make a profit from federal income taxes?

2) I'm not a regular Rush listener and haven't listened in months.....I'm working in the middle of the day. But, you may want to stay off Air America.....ooops you can't listen to Air America, they went bankrupt and shut down.

3) So by your logic we should be getting the shots ready for saden's boys Billy G, Warren B, etc. because they've been too successful :frusty:

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=Rainy Parade;700969]agree.... but the out-of-control defense spending needs to be in that discussion.[/quote]

Absolutely! I have gone on "good" rants about that. Just as I don't believe that anyone should be taxed over 50% of their assets by their government, there is also no way one government's "defense" spending should be even close to the rest of the world's combined, let alone more than all but the next closest one or two countries.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;700981]Absolutely! I have gone on "good" rants about that. Just as I don't believe that anyone should be taxed over 50% of their assets by their government, there is also no way one government's "defense" spending should be even close to the rest of the world's combined, let alone more than all but the next closest one or two countries.[/quote]


and yet discussion about reducing it is off limits. sadly, it's political dynamite cuz the Dems are so scared of being painted as "soft on defense" and they're too spineless to respond to that criticism. they'd rather just run around going rah rah rah about it cuz they think being centrists and acting like republicans is good for winning elections cuz they take their liberal-left base for granted cuz, well, sadly they can.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;700978]Is it fair that the top 10% paid about 73 percent of the income taxes collected by the federal government? [/quote]


i think so.
but i'm a socialist.