Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Rotten1980;1099982]If Gruden commits to the run and calls bootlegs, roll outs and screens with play action for the downfield shots we'll start putting points on the board again.

Gruden has been flat stubborn trying to force RG to throw from the pocket too much, well guess what jowly, no QB on the roster has been successful from the pocket. Get a fuckin clue or get the fuck out.[/quote]

At some point in an NFL game, your QB has to throw from the pocket. You can't do play action or bootlegs on 3rd and 8.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1099991]At some point in an NFL game, your QB has to throw from the pocket. You can't do play action or bootlegs on 3rd and 8.[/quote]

I know man but it's harder when the oline is a turnstile. That's why I said none of the QB's have really been successful overall from the pocket.

Colt's best plays have been on scrambles and rollouts too I think. Still like the guy as a person but don't want to see him on the field again lol.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

I think a mix will work well with a heavy commitment to the run. 3 and 8 play from the shotgun. Nothing to lose

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1099975]2 Grievances:

1. Gruden or whoever, were morally wrong for starting a QB with a strained neck. It's obvious Colt was in a lot of unbearable pain. I've lost all respect for Gruden.

2. Colt can never be a long term option because of his injury history. Severe head and neck injuries. That sounds like Colt is done.[/quote]LMAO. And there's any hope for Griffin long term? Dude hasn't played a whole season healthy yet.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=diehardskin2982;1099984]How much you want to bet we see more roll outs, play actions and moving of the pocket this Saturday?[/quote]

I hope so...this plays to RG3's strengths (and helps against our biggest weakness- Pass Pro).

I personally think Robert gets more accurate throwing on the run.

Rollouts should also open up counters going back the other way.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Chico23231;1099971]We are beating Philly Sunday.[/quote]

Sadly on Saturday when we play them, the Skins will be prepping for Sunday's game :(

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

People don't seem to understand that bootlegs, roll-outs and moving the pocket only works if the run game is working. Our run game this year has struggled and that's mainly due to our TE's. We have not one TE on the roster that is solid all around.

People see Paulsen in the game and they stack the box because he can't out run anyone. If it's Jordan or Paul they just beat them to the edge and there is no seal for the zone read.

Which is why I'm hoping we invest in more traditional style running like the Seahawks do and get some more powerful lineman. Right now we have a mix of both and it's not working out. We have no identity.

If we move the pocket and have the lineman shift one way or another, it cuts the field in half and good defenses that are fast will just take advantage of that.

Robert needs to learn to throw from the pocket to be a consistent, and successful offense. Period.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Bucket;1100027]People don't seem to understand that bootlegs, roll-outs and moving the pocket only works if the run game is working. Our run game this year has struggled and that's mainly due to our TE's. We have not one TE on the roster that is solid all around.

People see Paulsen in the game and they stack the box because he can't out run anyone. If it's Jordan or Paul they just beat them to the edge and there is no seal for the zone read.

Which is why I'm hoping we invest in more traditional style running like the Seahawks do and get some more powerful lineman. Right now we have a mix of both and it's not working out. We have no identity.

If we move the pocket and have the lineman shift one way or another, it cuts the field in half and good defenses that are fast will just take advantage of that.

Robert needs to learn to throw from the pocket to be a consistent, and successful offense. Period.[/quote]

Same TE's last year and we had the 6th best running game, even with RG all gimped up.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;1100022]Sadly on Saturday when we play them, the Skins will be prepping for Sunday's game :([/QUOTE]


....and sadly now I will not miss the game and therefore the misery that is sure to accompany it. Damn you C Redskins. Damn you and your TV Guide.....

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Rotten1980;1100038]Same TE's last year and we had the 6th best running game, even with RG all gimped up.[/quote]

What then good sir is your explanation?

I'm looking forward to some in depth analysis. I know your not gonna just say "cause Jay Gruden is the HC."

I agree with the original post that TE play is a huge factor in the run game this year.

Im sure there are other factors but seeing Paul and Reed being folded like pieces of paper and then their assignment making the tackle or disrupting the play stand out to my untrained eye.

Reed and Paul haven't blocked anybody all year. They are soft and don't block the backside or the front side well at all.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=punch it in;1100040]....and sadly now I will not miss the game and therefore the misery that is sure to accompany it. Damn you C Redskins. Damn you and your TV Guide.....[/quote]

is it Friday yet?

Look, on Friday let's all have a good enough night (y'all know what i mean) that we forget Saturday ever had to happen.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;1100048]is it Friday yet?



Look, on Friday let's all have a good enough night (y'all know what i mean) that we forget Saturday ever had to happen.[/QUOTE]


Lol. Hell lets just let it roll clear through sunday morning to be on the safe side...

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Rotten1980;1100038]Same TE's last year and we had the 6th best running game, even with RG all gimped up.[/quote]

Yes and Jordan didn't play most of the year. Paulsen is a good blocker but lacks the receiving ability. Which is why we had no explosive plays from that position. It goes hand in hand.

Also to note. We had Polumbus who excels in the run game but is horrible in pass protection.

I shouldn't have to explain these things to vivid skin fans I feel

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

Haha vivid wtf i lol'd

Who knew Polumbus was the key to the offensive line! Anybody? Anybody?

Jay Gruden could be playing Polumbus. So is it like a conscious effort to sabotage the run game or not? Lmao

And playing the best TE takes away from the run game? Brilliant!

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Rotten1980;1100087]Haha vivid wtf i lol'd

Who knew Polumbus was the key to the offensive line! Anybody? Anybody?

Jay Gruden could be playing Polumbus. So is it like a conscious effort to sabotage the run game or not? Lmao

And playing the best TE takes away from the run game? Brilliant![/quote]

Wait. So your being sarcastic or you dont really understand players can have strengths and weaknesses? Just because Jordan Reed is our best TE doesn't mean he's effective in the run game.

Btw. You suck at reading comprehension. Or you just chose to troll. I cant figure it out

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[QUOTE=Bucket;1100089]Wait. So your being sarcastic or you dont really understand players can have strengths and weaknesses? Just because Jordan Reed is our best TE doesn't mean he's effective in the run game.



Btw. You suck at reading comprehension. Or you just chose to troll. I cant figure it out[/QUOTE]


I think Rotten is actually Jim Zorn. He desperately wants Gruden to be a bigger joke than he was.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=punch it in;1100091]I think Rotten is actually Jim Zorn. He desperately wants Gruden to be a bigger joke than he was.[/quote]

I haven't given up on Gruden. I also think the RG3 vs Gruden thing is speculation on a losing team who is frustrated with performance.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

I tend to agree. The presser I heard yesterday from Gruden suggests any discord between the two is minimal. I am not going to say it doesn't exist. The reason Polumbus was such a part of the offense under Shanahan was because it was a run first offense and we were accepting liability in the passing game. The TE play has been very suspect this year especially as we have transitioned to a more pass first attack. This year ranked top 10 as of now versus last year 16th. We can question why Gruden isn't using the weapons he has how they have been most successful, but we also need to realize he has his own agenda.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Bucket;1100027]People don't seem to understand that bootlegs, roll-outs and moving the pocket only works if the run game is working. Our run game this year has struggled and that's mainly due to our TE's. We have not one TE on the roster that is solid all around.

People see Paulsen in the game and they stack the box because he can't out run anyone. If it's Jordan or Paul they just beat them to the edge and there is no seal for the zone read.

Which is why I'm hoping we invest in more traditional style running like the Seahawks do and get some more powerful lineman. Right now we have a mix of both and it's not working out. We have no identity.

If we move the pocket and have the lineman shift one way or another, it cuts the field in half and good defenses that are fast will just take advantage of that.

Robert needs to learn to throw from the pocket to be a consistent, and successful offense. Period.[/quote]

I love Jordan Reed and Niles Paul. They do add extra weapons for the quarterback. But honestly, Paulsen is a guy that we need to keep around. He's the best blocking tight end on the team that I've seen.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=skinsguy;1100119]I love Jordan Reed and Niles Paul. They do add extra weapons for the quarterback. But honestly, Paulsen is a guy that we need to keep around. He's the best blocking tight end on the team that I've seen.[/quote]

paulsen has been missing a ton of blocks and assignments this year though .. im thinking we move on from paulsen if there is a cheaper equivalent.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Bucket;1100027]People don't seem to understand that bootlegs, roll-outs and moving the pocket only works if the run game is working. Our run game this year has struggled and that's mainly due to our TE's. We have not one TE on the roster that is solid all around.

People see Paulsen in the game and they stack the box because he can't out run anyone. If it's Jordan or Paul they just beat them to the edge and there is no seal for the zone read.

Which is why I'm hoping we invest in more traditional style running like the Seahawks do and get some more powerful lineman. Right now we have a mix of both and it's not working out. We have no identity.

If we move the pocket and have the lineman shift one way or another, it cuts the field in half and good defenses that are fast will just take advantage of that.

Robert needs to learn to throw from the pocket to be a consistent, and successful offense. Period.[/quote]

Maybe, but he isn't that today

Right now we need to design the offense to his strengths and in the offseason work on his weaknesses.


Under Gibbs our teams were great at covering for the weaknesses of our QB's (Apart from maybe Theismann, none of our QB's under Gibbs were exactly superstars)

I don't see Gruden having the ability to do that

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Avinash_Tyagi;1100195]Maybe, but he isn't that today

Right now we need to design the offense to his strengths and in the offseason work on his weaknesses.


Under Gibbs our teams were great at covering for the weaknesses of our QB's (Apart from maybe Theismann, none of our QB's under Gibbs were exactly superstars)

I don't see Gruden having the ability to do that[/quote]

That's what people don't get. The most important fundamental for a NFL QB to have is anticipation. Cousins has it, and maybe to much at times but RG3 has 0. WR's don't run WIDE open like in college. An open WR in the NFL means 1-2 yds. That's why arm strength is so important. He needs to be able to anticipate routes and throw the ball. He doesn't, and that limits playcalling and the offense. You can't run read options on 3rd and 8 or run 8 routes from PA.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

RG needs to reach out to two people IMO, Jeff Garcia and George Whitfield Jr.

Garcia was the best pocket presence QB I have seen. George trains Luck and others can be a benefit to rebuild Robert.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

We dont have a pocket to teach from.
We have a house of cards in a stiff breeze.

I'd start using the shotgun ASAP.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Bucket;1100198]That's what people don't get. The most important fundamental for a NFL QB to have is anticipation. Cousins has it, and maybe to much at times but RG3 has 0. WR's don't run WIDE open like in college. An open WR in the NFL means 1-2 yds. That's why arm strength is so important. He needs to be able to anticipate routes and throw the ball. He doesn't, and that limits playcalling and the offense. You can't run read options on 3rd and 8 or run 8 routes from PA.[/quote]


Cousins has Anticipation?

Did he anticipate 9 Interceptions?

Yeah Cousins sure did great anticipating where the defenders would be when he threw the ball into their hands.

Again, if Gruden is a decent Coach, he'll be able to adjust his offense to play to Griffin's strengths and minimize the weaknesses

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

I think that is fine if Griffin was "pro ready" but he so far from it that we need to develop the skills. Waiting on the offseason to develop those skills only encourages those weaknesses, the longer they are practiced the longer they will take to break. I do think Gruden could've done a better job of working in the necessary skills while keeping the dynamics that make Robert a threat.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Avinash_Tyagi;1100202]Cousins has Anticipation?

Did he anticipate 9 Interceptions?

Yeah Cousins sure did great anticipating where the defenders would be when he threw the ball into their hands.

Again, if Gruden is a decent Coach, he'll be able to adjust his offense to play to Griffin's strengths and minimize the weaknesses[/quote]

i think good coaches can adjust and tweek elements of their scheme around a Qbs skill set .... but with RG3, you need to totally revamp any semblance of a pro passing attack.

griffins weaknesses >>>>>> griffins strengths (at this point)

i think RG3 could be a franchise QB, but he needs to accept where he is at and really put in the mental work needed. running more wind sprints is not needed.

these discussions are really becoming circular . . .

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Avinash_Tyagi;1100202]Cousins has Anticipation?

Did he anticipate 9 Interceptions?

Yeah Cousins sure did great anticipating where the defenders would be when he threw the ball into their hands.

Again, if Gruden is a decent Coach, he'll be able to adjust his offense to play to Griffin's strengths and minimize the weaknesses[/quote]

Okay.. So what do you think Gruden should do?

-RG3 can't read defenses really well so no audibles at the line.

-RG3 can't anticipate route concepts. So on third downs, he can't find the open WR because what IS OPEN. Doesn't look open to RG3.

-He doesn't really have time to throw even if he did go through his 2nd-3rd reads because the offensive line is built to move the pocket.

-The pocket can't really move because we dont run the ball effectively on 1st-2nd downs because teams KNOW we can't throw the ball. So they just stack the box. Not to mention our best hands on the team is our WORSE blocker in Jordan Reed.

-You can't run Read Option on 3rd and long.

-Always in 3rd n long because of running game problems.


Bottom line is....RG3 right now is struggling to learn an offense that he can't really learn because he has no time to progress. When he does have time, he doesn't pull the trigger because he has no anticipation.

Gruden needs more than a year to get some of his players he wants in and remove a lot of the Shanahan leftovers.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

I think the solution is when both sides work together.

One- Hire the best QB coach they can find to give RG3 the instructions and work needed to succeed.

Two- Ease him into a prostyle offense. Start off with things he is good at giving RG a rhythm. Then start to add prostyle concepts

RG has to hire a private coach to help him work on his fundamentals in the offseason. As well as someone to watch film with him and help get better going through progressions.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Bucket;1100210]Okay.. So what do you think Gruden should do?
[/quote]


If I knew what to do, I'd be a Football head Coach

I'm not, so its not my job to say what Gruden should do, I just know he's not done it and putting in Cousins is not the answer.

[quote=over the mountain;1100206] with RG3, you need to totally revamp any semblance of a pro passing attack.

griffins weaknesses >>>>>> griffins strengths (at this point)
[/quote]

You won't turn RG3 into a skilled pocket passer overnight, that will take months, but you can adjust the playbook this week so that on Saturday we can compete.

Gruden gets paid millions to do the job. Its up to Gruden to redesign his playbook if need be, but make it work.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Avinash_Tyagi;1100216]

Gruden gets paid millions to do the job. Its up to Gruden to redesign his playbook if need be, but make it work.[/quote]

i do think gruden could have done more to adjust to RG3.

gruden has a lot of hubris in his system. a lot of offensive and defensive coaches have total belief in their system.

i think gruden, in his first HC job, wants to run and be judged on his scheme .... not a make shift, hap hazard college style scheme.

i like what i saw from gruden's timing/pass attack scheme the first 10 games or so. the last couple games, i dont think we are even running a scheme.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Avinash_Tyagi;1100216]If I knew what to do, I'd be a Football head Coach

I'm not, so its not my job to say what Gruden should do, I just know he's not done it and putting in Cousins is not the answer.



You won't turn RG3 into a skilled pocket passer overnight, that will take months, but you can adjust the playbook this week so that on Saturday we can compete.

Gruden gets paid millions to do the job. Its up to Gruden to redesign his playbook if need be, but make it work.[/quote]

Holy shit. You just dont get it.

YOU CAN'T CHANGE A PLAYBOOK FOR A QB WHO CAN'T ANTICIPATE BASIC ROUTE CONCEPTS. You can't... Read Option was a feather in the cap. Now it's half as effective as it was. Not going to pull lB's up and live 9 routes open across the middle.

Eventually.. You have to be able to throw the ball to WR's with timing. RG3 can't do it..

The only effective gameplan for RG3 is running the ball and HOPING you end up in 3rd and 1-4 for the whole game.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

At this point moving forward to next year, Gruden needs to play the best QB that's on the roster. It's not his job to cater to Griffin because Griffin hasn't shown he can run a pro offense. He'll also be going in his 4th year. Yeah they can keep coaching him up, but at some point, the train can't sit on the platform for RG3. I think he's on the team next year cause of the owner, but he's going to be competing.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Avinash_Tyagi;1100202]Cousins has Anticipation?

Did he anticipate 9 Interceptions?

Yeah Cousins sure did great anticipating where the defenders would be when he threw the ball into their hands.

Again, if Gruden is a decent Coach, he'll be able to adjust his offense to play to Griffin's strengths and minimize the weaknesses[/quote]

If you look at the QB play this year, who ran the offense the best? Who hit more big plays? When was the offense the most explosive? Hands down it was when KC was in there. Now the turnovers kill the team and they lose games. But he also threw a lot of TD's and moved the team. The WR's, which is suppose to be the strength of the team, were more involved. KC needs more coaching and playing time. That's painfully obvious. Is he mentally tough enough? Can he shake the turnovers? That remains to be seen. But he's shown enough that he deserves to be given the chance to compete for the job.

Meanwhile, Griffin in his 5 games hasn't really shown anything. No progress at all. Even jello arm McCoy has AT LEAST shown something. The RG3 hype, the "he needs a special offense" talk, it's old.

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Bucket;1100220]Holy shit. You just dont get it.

YOU CAN'T CHANGE A PLAYBOOK FOR A QB WHO CAN'T ANTICIPATE BASIC ROUTE CONCEPTS. You can't... Read Option was a feather in the cap. Now it's half as effective as it was. Not going to pull lB's up and live 9 routes open across the middle.

Eventually.. You have to be able to throw the ball to WR's with timing. RG3 can't do it..

The only effective gameplan for RG3 is running the ball and HOPING you end up in 3rd and 1-4 for the whole game.[/quote]

They were able to build a plan for him in 2012, so its doable.

[quote]At this point moving forward to next year, Gruden needs to play the best QB that's on the roster. It's not his job to cater to Griffin because Griffin hasn't shown he can run a pro offense. He'll also be going in his 4th year. Yeah they can keep coaching him up, but at some point, the train can't sit on the platform for RG3. I think he's on the team next year cause of the owner, but he's going to be competing.[/quote]

At the moment Griffin is the best QB Gruden has (Colt is too injured to play and Cousins throws Interceptions left and right)

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1100229]If you look at the QB play this year, who ran the offense the best? Who hit more big plays? When was the offense the most explosive? Hands down it was when KC was in there. Now the turnovers kill the team and they lose games. But he also threw a lot of TD's and moved the team. The WR's, which is suppose to be the strength of the team, were more involved. KC needs more coaching and playing time. That's painfully obvious. Is he mentally tough enough? Can he shake the turnovers? That remains to be seen. But he's shown enough that he deserves to be given the chance to compete for the job.

Meanwhile, Griffin in his 5 games hasn't really shown anything. No progress at all. Even jello arm McCoy has AT LEAST shown something. The RG3 hype, the "he needs a special offense" talk, it's old.[/quote]

Cousins kills the team, that's the problem, who cares if the team moves if it turns over the ball constantly (the only team he beat was the Jaguars, any of the three of them would have beaten the Jaguars).

McCoy would be fine if he were healthy, but he's not.

That leaves Griffin

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

Here's the thing with 2012....
1. Defenses figured out the gimmicky scheme.
2. It was 2 years ago, and griffin is a shell of what he was that year.
I believe in letting gruden put in whoever he wants seeing that he's the coach. It's his team. Like it or not. Griffin has been terrible for 66% of his info career. I love 2012...but its the past. I don't know who is the answer to this whole debacle. They may not even be on our team yet. And to be honest, I've never seen this much divide amongst fans of the same team. Its a f&!:ing shame. A once glories franchise now has its own fans at each others necks about a first year head coach and a heisman bust.
I do NOT think gruden should have to rewrite his playbook to suit Griffin. If that was the case they should have hired a running back coach for his positio .

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=OnceWeWereKings;1100235]Here's the thing with 2012....
1. Defenses figured out the gimmicky scheme.
2. It was 2 years ago, and griffin is a shell of what he was that year.
I believe in letting gruden put in whoever he wants seeing that he's the coach. It's his team. Like it or not. Griffin has been terrible for 66% of his info career. I love 2012...but its the past. I don't know who is the answer to this whole debacle. They may not even be on our team yet. And to be honest, I've never seen this much divide amongst fans of the same team. Its a f&!:ing shame. A once glories franchise now has its own fans at each others necks about a first year head coach and a heisman bust.
[B]I do NOT think gruden should have to rewrite his playbook to suit Griffin. If that was the case they should have hired a running back coach for his positio[/B] .[/quote]

Totes. Shame on Bill Belichick for caving into players and completely reshaping his scheme/playcalling to perfectly fit their skillset. Just terrible, terrible coaching. What's he thinking?!

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[url]http://sports.yahoo.com/news/redskins-place-colt-mccoy-injured-200653223--nfl.html[/url]

Colt might be more injury prone than RG. Will he be back next season?

Re: RG3 and Gruden?
 

[quote=Rotten1980;1100237]Totes. Shame on Bill Belichick for caving into players and completely reshaping his scheme/playcalling to perfectly fit their skillset. Just terrible, terrible coaching. What's he thinking?![/quote]

So are you comparing belichik and gruden? Or griffin and Brady? Either way your view parallels griffin. You can take that however you want. We are not New England though. Examples can be given in Snarkey tones, but I still think if they wanted a coach to run the offense griffin way, they should have hired one. They didn't. They hired gruden...knowing the type of scheme he was bringing and what direction he wanted to take it. Playi g to a players strengths is one thing. Throwing your playbook away and rewriting your offense because your quarterback can't see his recievers is another thing all together.