Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;1278219]I still like Corey Davis over Fuller given his injury history and the suspension.[/quote]

Fuller is a younger DeSean Jackson. Similar abilities and can't stay healthy.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1278177][IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EvMLEkgXMAM9M_o?format=jpg&name=900x900[/IMG]

I'm sorry but if you think this is better than WFT you need to root for arena football...

That shit is awful[/quote]

logo and the font below the helmet are amateur hour at best

I'm not a big fan of Redwolves, it sounds like what a bunch of 6th grade boys would come up with. But I could live with the name if the logo is done right.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;1278190]let it go. redwolves is not going to happen.[/QUOTE]



I too have become strangely attached to wft but come on. Lol.
Maybe in the minority but i like the name and the logo. Plus I desperately want to hear the howl every time we get a first down. Lol

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=punch it in;1278247]I too have become strangely attached to wft but come on. Lol.
Maybe in the minority but i like the name and the logo. Plus [B]I desperately want to hear the howl every time we get a first down.[/B] Lol[/quote]

Me too, Brother.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

As a history buff, I wouldn't mind Redtails either. The name lends itself to some great logos and uniforms.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1278258]As a history buff, I wouldn't mind Redtails either. The name lends itself to some great logos and uniforms.[/quote]

I hate to say it, but given today climate, someone will complain that a white owner is making money off the legacy of black people and complain about racism and cultural appropriation.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=Ruhskins;1278242]Fuller is a younger DeSean Jackson. Similar abilities and can't stay healthy.[/quote]

True he's been hurt quite a lot and I get the cautiousness with players having an injury history.
But at the right price I'd still like the signing.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MissouriSkin;1278259]I hate to say it, but given today climate, someone will complain that a white owner is making money off the legacy of black people and complain about racism and cultural appropriation.[/quote]


This.

Also ... with Redtails ... what do we call the cheerleaders?? And aren't we just getting over some seriously awful harassment stuff there?

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

They won't go to another RED name I bet..

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=Pervis_Griffith;1278272]This.

Also ... with Redtails ... what do we call the cheerleaders?? And aren't we just getting over some seriously awful harassment stuff there?[/quote]

I mean we just had to change how we address a plastic potato that had interchangeable parts and was already gender fluid....🤦*♂️

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=Pervis_Griffith;1278272]This.

Also ... with Redtails ... what do we call the cheerleaders?? And aren't we just getting over some seriously awful harassment stuff there?[/quote]

Probably best to just get rid of cheerleaders altogether

I mean when you think about it the whole concept of cheerleaders is a little cringey and dated

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1278276]Probably best to just get rid of cheerleaders altogether

I mean when you think about it the whole concept of cheerleaders is a little cringey and dated[/quote]

Nobody even cares about them anymore , I don't even see them on TV much

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1278276]Probably best to just get rid of cheerleaders altogether

I mean when you think about it the whole concept of cheerleaders is a little cringey and dated[/quote]

This. Another thing to follow in the Pittsburgh Steeler organization.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[QUOTE=KI Skins Fan;1278257]Me too, Brother.[/QUOTE]



[emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]

WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[QUOTE=MTK;1278276]Probably best to just get rid of cheerleaders altogether



I mean when you think about it the whole concept of cheerleaders is a little cringey and dated[/QUOTE]



Yeah its cool in highschool then it is kind of corny.
My parents are Eagles fans. Had season tickets for years. I remember back in the 80’s the cheerleaders started wearing pants. Man you never heard booing like you did at the vet when they came out in pants. Lol

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MissouriSkin;1278275]I mean we just had to change how we address a plastic potato that had interchangeable parts and was already gender fluid....🤦*♂️[/quote]

It is called the Hegelian dialectic. Divide and conquer.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;1278208]Well, most teams get beat by the more elite rushers. That's why they call them elite; and you don't get routinely owned throughout the season, and come out at the end with the 6th best offensive line in the league.

Having four different starting QBs (with the best option being completely immobile), a starting RB basically learning the position and missing time due to injury, and receivers who (other than Terry) couldn't get separation, made the line look worse than they were.

There's no reason to start over here. They would be fine if they just add some developmental depth in the draft and retain Scherff.[/quote]

That depends how stats computed. Great teams don't make excuses, so I'm just ignoring the second paragraph which exemplifies a losers mentality. When it counted against good teams, we got owned. Paper tiger, no matter what the stats say.

The more I think about it, the more I would not resign Scherff. Last three years he has missed just under a third of games, meaning he played 2 effective seasons. Does anyone think he is going to magically get healthier on the bad side of 30? Some guys play awesome well into 30s, but not usually those who have been DECIMATED by injuries in their late 20s. It is a hard-nosed decision. I would rather keep a guy like Allen and draft a G with a 3rd or 4th round pick.

Let's look at our line.
LT: Cornelius, 30 when season starts. Charles backup, young rookie deal, could pan out, but can't count on it.
LG: Schweitzer, 28 when season starts. Wes Martin, young rookie deal, solid backup who seems to lack the chops to be starter.
C: Roullier, 28 when season starts. Backup, Call him Ismael, young rookie deal, appears to be solid backup.
RG: Scherff, 29 when season starts. Ismael, Martin swing position backups.
RT: Moses (all these Biblical names LOL), 30 start of season. No backup besides Charles, who though he may not pan out as LT, should certainly be able to handle RT. I think Christian (damn these Biblical names LOL) is toast.


Cornelius is on a bargain contract, around 2M per year, through end of 2021. He has been solid but hardly elite, clearly outplayed that contract. He'll be looking for $8M+ if he plays as well again next year. So in 2022 are we going to pay a 31 year old above average tackle what will probably be something in neighborhood of $10M+ per year? No, we shouldn't.

Schweitzer earning $4M this year, $5M next, FA 2023 at age 30. He has been solid, neither great or terrible. A smart team would get this level of production out of 3rd or 4th round pick on a rookie deal, but 1st year of regime last year so many holes can't hate the signing.

Roullier is a solid but far from elite C. Resigning him neither great nor terrible. He is paid $7-10M per 2024, a fair deal for both parties.

Scherff is elite, but is still primarily a pancake run blocker, lead footed, which is why he was IMMEDIATELY moved to G from T in basically his first day of practice coming to Skins after draft. There are a number of plays pass blocking where people just blow right by him.

Moses. Average player. Streaky. Lacks consistency, especially over course of his career. In theory a quick footed pass blocker and not a dominant run blocker, but boy has gotten beat a ton off the edge over the years. Due just under $8M this year next, can be cut after 2021 with NO dead money.

Could we get away with focusing more on D in draft this year? And QB?
Sure.

To me, I'm building an O, my three priority positions are QB,LT,C. RBs and Gs grow on trees. You need a good WR, but they are usually available in FA in a pinch and there are LOTS of good WRs available year after year. QB,LT,C, finding elite, franchise caliber players extremely difficult. We have no young franchise QB. We have no young franchise LT. We have decent C. Our offense is built ass backwards, with best player at absolute lowest leverage position on entire O.

C is actually the rarest position on O for elite players, more than QB, though QB obviously much higher leverage. You need a QB for reasons won't belabor. You need a good LT to keep QB alive, and a good C anchors the OL. Good C and LT you can put anyone in at both Gs. A solid RT doesn't hurt either.

One other thing I believe in philosophically is that your swing players should be T and C, not Gs. If you are keeping 8 OL, should be two backup Ts and a backup C, which swing to G if injury. Thus even if you love Moses, Lucas, and believe Charles can stay healthy and start all year if an injury (a dubious proposition), you still need to draft one T this year.

None of our starters are young. Our only elite player is at the absolute least important O position. We need to remake gradually with younger players. This is a deep draft for tackles. It would be smart to draft one. I'm building a team long term, two positions I want elite 1st round talents at, over the long term, is C and FS. Maybe not this year, but long-term. Thus I don't love Roullier because C is 3rd highest priority position. We say game won in the trenches, meaning 2 of 3 high priority positions on O are OL.

End of next year Lucas gone. End of next year not the worst idea in the world to not pay a guy earning $8M a year to perform above average at best at RT. You could draft a 1st round T in next year's draft and have them start, but if you're planning on any later pick, probably want a year to get them to learn the system and coach them up, especially at LT. If we plugged in a rookie contract guy to replace Moses next year, freeing up money to keep our awesome DL.

So if I were GM, and I hardly think I know it all, I let Scherff walk. I use my 1st round pick this year on a LT if available. Most years a potential franchise LT is not available so late in draft, this year maybe, so you exploit that opportunity and fill one of major long term needs of a good team. If not, ideally CB. Assuming QBs all gone when we pick. Then I'd try to draft a G 3rd or 4th round to play RG.

Our coaching staff did a great job of building a stopgap line given that 80% of the roster was holes. That is not the same thing as an OL built for long-term success in a strategically sound manner.

Any year a truly elite C is available, I take him if I don't have one, and we don't. One of lowest risk higher round positions, and most all elite Cs picked 1st 2nd round. I do that even with Roullier on roster.

So let's say we draft a franchise LT in round 1, which I don't think we will. A QB round 2, a RG round 3 or 4. And we let Scherff walk, and get a 3rd round comp for him year after. I'll take the positional drop-off at G for $14M+ a year less. It is a RG, for f sake, no need to spend that kind of money at such a low leverage position.

We then have:

T: Lucas, Moses, Charles, Rookie. Who cares if Lucas or Rookie starts, let them compete. Any injuries, you aren't getting your QB killed. Next year you let Lucas walk, cut Moses, draft two more young guys at T, one early round, one late.
G: Schweitzer, Martin, Ismael, Charles, Rookie LT. Move Martin to RT, expect significant but not ruinous drop off, and use money wasted on Scherff for elite young DL resigning. Charles could also start at LG move Schweitzer to RG. Rookie might also start.
C: Roullier and Ismael.

We lost to virtually every winning team we played for good reason, and for many reasons, but we need much better play on the edges to have any hope of beating better teams. We have NO starting o-linemen on rookie deals. That has to change given salary cap, especially because we won't always find absurd bargains at LT in FA. We just signed a mediocre C to long-term deal, if we sign a RG to $15m+, then we are looking at $25M+ roughly on just C and RG. This is the WRONG way to build an OL. You want your three elite, high-paid players to be LT,C,RT. Long-term, we need to move to this distribution by letting Scherff walk. We also need a succession plan at T, right and left. I expect Moses to be COMPLETELY exposed without Scherff left of him, and would have to draft a second T if letting Scherff walk.

Anyhoo. I would not say our OL blows, but at some point we have to begin beating teams with, you know, winning records. We get a LOT of QBS injured, LOL, ever wonder why?

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

Scalper, I think you may be underestimating Charles. I think he is starter material, assuming that his injury problems are behind him now. Remember how the coaching staff plugged him in at LG last season just as soon as he was physically ready to go? Admittedly, I have no NFL history to go on but I still think (with my fingers crossed) he can be be a quality starter on the left side in 2021.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=Scalper;1278306]It is called the Hegelian dialectic. Divide and conquer.[/quote]

Oh I’m very aware. Just wish others were.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=Scalper;1278307][B]The more I think about it, the more I would not resign Scherff. [/B]Last three years he has missed just under a third of games, meaning he played 2 effective seasons. Does anyone think he is going to magically get healthier on the bad side of 30? Some guys play awesome well into 30s, but not usually those who have been DECIMATED by injuries in their late 20s. It is a hard-nosed decision. I would rather keep a guy like Allen and draft a G with a 3rd or 4th round pick.

__________

Scherff is elite, but is still primarily a pancake run blocker, lead footed, which is why he was IMMEDIATELY moved to G from T in basically his first day of practice coming to Skins after draft. There are a number of plays pass blocking where people just blow right by him.

________

To me, I'm building an O, my three priority positions are QB,LT,C. RBs and Gs grow on trees.


_________

None of our starters are young. Our only elite player is at the absolute least important O position.


So if I were GM, and I hardly think I know it all, I let Scherff walk. I use my 1st round pick this year on a LT if available. Most years a potential franchise LT is not available so late in draft, this year maybe, so you exploit that opportunity and fill one of major long term needs of a good team. If not, ideally CB. Assuming QBs all gone when we pick. Then I'd try to draft a G 3rd or 4th round to play RG.



So let's say we draft a franchise LT in round 1, which I don't think we will. A QB round 2, a RG round 3 or 4. And we let Scherff walk, and get a 3rd round comp for him year after. [B]I'll take the positional drop-off at G for $14M+ a year less. It is a RG, for f sake, no need to spend that kind of money at such a low leverage position.
[/B]
We then have:

T: Lucas, Moses, Charles, Rookie. Who cares if Lucas or Rookie starts, let them compete. Any injuries, you aren't getting your QB killed. Next year you let Lucas walk, cut Moses, draft two more young guys at T, one early round, one late.
G: Schweitzer, Martin, Ismael, Charles, Rookie LT. Move Martin to RT, expect significant but not ruinous drop off, and use money wasted on Scherff for elite young DL resigning. Charles could also start at LG move Schweitzer to RG. Rookie might also start.
C: Roullier and Ismael.



Anyhoo. I would not say our OL blows, but at some point we have to begin beating teams with, you know, winning records. We get a LOT of QBS injured, LOL, ever wonder why?[/quote]



I've started leaning this way too ...

If you could sign him on a longer term deal that lessens his annual hit to the cap, then fine. But I don't see that happening -- if it could have happened, it already would have.

What percentage of the fan base feels the same way? 5? 10? My gut tells me it's a small percentage ....


I think the front office and Rivera take a PR hit with most of the fans by letting him walk ... but that shouldn't drive their decisions. And long term roster/cap management is the key to truly building a contender. Spending $15-18 million a year on a guard just doesn't work.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

I'm going back and forth on Scherff but at the end of the day I think I'd let him walk rather than make him the highest paid guard in the league. He's a top 5 guard no doubt, and someone is going to pay him, it just doesn't have to be us. You can find guards in the mid to later rounds that are more than serviceable.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1278329]I'm going back and forth on Scherff but at the end of the day I think I'd let him walk rather than make him the highest paid guard in the league. He's a top 5 guard no doubt, and someone is going to pay him, it just doesn't have to be us. You can find guards in the mid to later rounds that are more than serviceable.[/quote]

And thats worked how well in the last few decades?

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MissouriSkin;1278330]And thats worked how well in the last few decades?[/quote]

What, drafting OL? Have we had a big problem in that area? Last year we started 3 guys that we drafted.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MissouriSkin;1278330]And thats worked how well in the last few decades?[/quote]


For the teams that routinely win Super Bowls, I would suspect, it's not because they have heavily invested in their guards.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

I don't think drafting OL has been a problem for the team. In terms of Schereff the tag seems steep to me but what do I know. O line and RB seem to be the two offensive positions where quality production can be had without over paying.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1278329]I'm going back and forth on Scherff but at the end of the day I think I'd let him walk rather than make him the highest paid guard in the league. He's a top 5 guard no doubt, and someone is going to pay him, it just doesn't have to be us. You can find guards in the mid to later rounds that are more than serviceable.[/quote]

I agree, I think you save that $$ and keep building good depth all around

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1278334]I agree, I think you save that $$ and keep building good depth all around[/quote]

Including finding and paying his replacement...

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MissouriSkin;1278335]Including finding and paying his replacement...[/quote]

very true

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1278336]very true[/quote]

I guess I’m confused because all I read on these boards is that we need to develop and keep our players and when the good ones come up, we always say “let them go”....since we are in decent shape cap wise, I think at this moment in time with Ron being new here it’s important that we resign a guy known for being a pretty good players as well as leader. I think the message this sends to other guys we want to keep down the road is worth a couple million a year at this point because I think it sends the right message. Even if it means paying a guard 15 million a year instead of 12. Just my opinion.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

Pay your own when it makes sense of course. Does it make sense to give tackle money to a guard who's going to be 30 and has an injury history? It's not a slam dunk decision either way.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1278342]Pay your own when it makes sense of course. Does it make sense to give tackle money to a guard who's going to be 30 and has an injury history? It's not a slam dunk decision either way.[/quote]

If we are going to let Schreff walk, it'd be nice if we can get compensation now via a tag and trade, as opposed to waiting for a comp pick next year.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

I am beginning to think that Scherff won't be back. $18mil for the franchise tag is too much, and for a long term deal, you can't pay him less than $15.5 - 16mil per year now that you tagged him last year for over $15mil.

That sucks, but it's part of the business. It probably doesn't make sense to pay him what he's going to command.

There's a ton of guards hitting free agency, but besides Scherff and Thuney, I don't know anything about them.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

Without the injuries in recent season (16 games missed and how many more playing banged up) I think you make hime the highest paid guard in the league knowing today's overpay is tomorrow's bargain.
With the injury history I think you offer 14M APY, which he's gonna turn down, and you let him walk ,hoping it's Bruce's last lest over of mismanaging our draft picks' contracts !

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1278359]Without the injuries in recent season (16 games missed and how many more playing banged up) I think you make hime the highest paid guard in the league knowing [B]today's overpay is tomorrow's bargain.[/B]
With the injury history I think you offer 14M APY, which he's gonna turn down, and you let him walk ,hoping it's Bruce's last lest over of mismanaging our draft picks' contracts ![/quote]

That is assuming you are in the market to pay a top 5 guard salary. If you are in the “let him walk and draft a rookie guard” category then you will be getting the real bargain by only paying a rookie deal. Obviously the risk is that you don’t draft a bust.

I think the risk outweighs the reward to sign Scheriff. And I love the guy. But an 800k rookie guard salary instead of a 16 mil veteran guard salary let’s you do A LOT at one or more other position groups.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

I'd say if the budget allows, tag him and look at a trade. Worth more than the comp pick and if not, we've got our OL anchor for this year. But draft a replacement as well as a new LT. I have to agree that he'd be an expensive luxury long term, but too much this year alone? If we spend big in FA on other targets then yes, he'd have to go to make/keep room, but if we don't would it be a waste of money on another years rental?

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=AnonEmouse;1278371]I'd say if the budget allows, tag him and look at a trade. Worth more than the comp pick and if not, we've got our OL anchor for this year. But draft a replacement as well as a new LT. I have to agree that he'd be an expensive luxury long term, but too much this year alone? If we spend big in FA on other targets then yes, he'd have to go to make/keep room, but if we don't would it be a waste of money on another years rental?[/quote]

Sincere question: what would be a tagged RG's trade value ?

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

The game of football is won on the line of scrimmage, look at this year's super bowl chiefs have the best qb in the business right now and multiple big time offensive weapons and What happened there o-line got man handled you pay scheriff

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

Julia Donadlson " I'm not a big fan of the Redwolves"

Didn't go into details but coming from the VP of marketing, I'd say thats pretty significant

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1278376]Julia Donadlson " I'm not a big fan of the Redwolves"

Didn't go into details but coming from the VP of marketing, I'd say thats pretty significant[/quote]

I am holding firm that it will stay Football Team until the NFL investigation into Snyder is finished. If he is forced to sell a new owner being able to stamp their legacy right a way will add a couple 100 million to asking price I would imagine.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[URL="https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/washington/2021/03/03/washington-football-team-no-cheerleaders-2021-add-coed-dance-squad/6893879002/"]Washington Football Team will not have cheerleaders in 2021 but will add coed dance squad[/URL]