Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Mattyk72;599245]Just curious for those that are convinced the numbers lie, is there anyone else in the top 10 or 15 that is also a complete fraud like JC?

[URL="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?season=2009&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PASSING&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_PASSER_RATING&d-447263-n=1"]NFL Stats: by Player Category[/URL][/quote]

These numbers aren't lying, JC is playing great...but I'll throw Kolb and Sanchez into the "fraud" or at least overachieving category. :D

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Mattyk72;599169]With a yards per attempt of 7.8, I think we need to reconsider this notion that all JC does is throw dump offs. It's just not the case this year. Plus if you've watched the games at all you know what the deal is. If you're paying attention that is.[/quote]

I don't think I said that's all he throws but certainly his completion stats are padded by them. I believe I said "short and/or safe passes"...but i think it speaks to the overall point that he racks up yards and completions when we are playing from behind against a soft defense. He stays very conservative or absent for stretches during the early to middle parts of games.

But Matty, let's break it down by the quarter, to make sure we are paying "attention" to detail:
[I][B][SIZE=1]"short passes" denote short throws with YAC as determined by play-by-play commentator[/SIZE][/B][/I]

[SIZE=3][B]NYG - 1 intermediate pass completed, 1 deep pass completed[/B][/SIZE]
[U]1Q: 1-1, 7 yds[/U]
1 short pass (7 yds on 3rd and 18); [I][B]ZERO deep or intermediate passes attempted[/B][/I]
[U]2Q: 6-10, 106 yds, 1 INT, 1 FUMBLE for TD[/U];
5 short passes; 1 intermediate pass completed (12yds thru the air, ARE runs for 22 after a broken tackle); [I][B]ZERO deep passes completed[/B][/I]
[U]3Q[B]:[/B] 5-7, 37 yds[/U]
5 short passes; [B][I]ZERO deep or intermediate passes attempted[/I][/B]
[U]4Q: 6-8, 61 yds, 1TD[/U]
5 short passes; [B][I]1 deep pass completed for 17yd-TD with 1:37 left in the game[/I][/B]

[B][SIZE=3]STL -[/SIZE][/B] [B][SIZE=3]3 intermediate passes completed; 1 deep completed[/SIZE][/B]
[U]1Q: 6-10, 52 yds[/U]
5 short passes, 1 intermediate passes (15); [B][I]ZERO deep passes completed[/I][/B]
[U]2Q: 9-15, 96 yds [/U]
7 short passes, 1 intermediate pass (15); [B][I]1 deep pass to Moss for 21[/I][/B]
[U]3Q: 4-5, 47yds[/U]
4 short passes, 1 intermediate pass to ARE; [B][I]ZERO deep passes attemped[/I][/B]
[U]4Q: 4-6, 47yds[/U]
4 short passes (25yd screen pass to betts); [B][I]ZERO intermediate or deep balls completed[/I][/B]

[B][SIZE=3]DET - 3 intermediate passes (2 against prevent), 3 deep passes (1 against prevent)[/SIZE][/B]
[U]1Q: 6-8, 80yds [/U]<--good first drive
5 short passes (1 Moss ran for 21 after breaking tackle); [B][I]1 deep pass to Thomas (18 yds)[/I][/B]
[U]2Q: 2-5, 21yd[/U]
2 short passes in flat with 5 YAC;[B][I] ZERO intermediate or deep passes completed[/I][/B]
[U]3Q: 4-7, 99 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT[/U]
2 short passes, 1 intermediate pass, [B][I]1 BEAUTIFUL deep 57yd TD to Moss[/I][/B]
[U]4Q: 15-21, 133yds, 1 TD[/U] (no huddle offense 8-8 72yds & 4-7 for 48)
12 short passes, 2 intermediate passes, [B][I]1 deep pass to moss for 21 yds against prevent defense[/I][/B]

[B][SIZE=3]TOTAL (thru 3 games): 7 intermediate passes; 5 deep passes...a WHOLE lotta short or conservative throws[/SIZE][/B]

I count 57...Look that's the nature of the WCO, i understand, but let's not make Campbell out to be something that he isnt...an elite QB. Just because he has a high completion percentage and a decent amount of passing yards, it does NOT make him a great QB. Sure he has shown improvement from last year but it's not being reflected in the W-L column or TD #'s thus far.

I was just rationalizing the reasons for the deceptive stats. Most of his yards and completions come on passes less than 10 yards. THOSE ARE THE FACTS!

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Green1;598742]Every thread someone is calling for campbell to be benched but his numbers are great.
1. Rating: 92.5 Higher than Brady, Big Ben, C. Palmer, Cutler, and Rivers
2. 9th in passing yards: More that Rodgers, Ryan, Palmer, E. Manning, & Cutler
3. 5th in the Comp. Percent. 67.6%: Higher than everyone in the league except P. Manning, Brees, Big Ben, and Chad Penn.

So what else does he have to do to be considered a good QB. The Skins have a good QB, just bad playcalling, no running game, and no O-line. Get off campbell's back. He is doing more with less better than anyone in the NFL. Check the stats the STATS don't lie![/quote]


I do not fall into the camp of people that want to oust Campbell. I think he is talented, and more than capable of leading us to the playoffs (but for our old, damaged line). That said, the QB rating metric is off, I believe due to the fact that 2/3 of the TDs he has tossed came in "garbage-ish" time. I know the defenses didn't "want to give up those TDs" but the games were pretty much in hand at that point (yes, I know we could have come back and beaten detroit, but we didn't). Campbell has always been accurate, its his fumbles (which he recovers) and his poor INTs that are killer. That said, I think Jason has a bright future, if we let him grow.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

I'd love to see some stats picked apart from other QBs so we can see who else is not really "elite".

By the way I never said he was elite or even great, just good, and better than some are willing to give him credit for, that's all.

And again, ultimately my argument on all of this is our problems run much deeper than JC.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Mattyk72;599266]I'd love to see some stats picked apart from other QBs so we can see who else is not really "elite".

By the way I never said he was elite or even great, just good, and better than some are willing to give him credit for, that's all.

And again, ultimately my argument on all of this is our problems run much deeper than JC.[/quote]

in support of mattyk, football outsiders was very high on campbell coming into the season. He's accurate and his receivers led the league in dropped balls (i think).

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Rajmahal33;599263]I don't think I said that's all he throws but certainly his completion stats are padded by them. I believe I said "short and/or safe passes"...but i think it speaks to the overall point that he racks up yards and completions when we are playing from behind against a soft defense. He stays very conservative or absent for stretches during the early to middle parts of games.

But Matty, let's break it down by the quarter, to make sure we are paying "attention" to detail:
[I][B][SIZE=1]BLAH BLAH BLAH[/SIZE][/B][/I]

I count 57...Look that's the nature of the WCO, i understand, but let's not make Campbell out to be something that he isnt...an elite QB. Just because he has a high completion percentage and a decent amount of passing yards, it does NOT make him a great QB. Sure he has shown improvement from last year but it's not being reflected in the W-L column or TD #'s thus far.

I was just rationalizing the reasons for the deceptive stats. Most of his yards and completions come on passes less than 10 yards. THOSE ARE THE FACTS![/quote]

The whole premise of "deceptive facts" is nothing more than petty nitpicking to try to keep your pessimism intact. I do not hear you criticizing Tom Brady for hitting Welker on short slants over 100 times last season.

This is the NFL, not Madden on your Playstation. No team can succeed and win by chucking 40-50 yard bombs every play.

Campbell has shown maturity and efficiency. He HAS been limited by some questionable playcalling by Zorn, especially in the RZ, but he has played extremely well despite having plenty of TDs dropped and been forced to hand off in critical situations.

It sounds like there is nothing JC could do to make you stop hating him.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

Can I get a show of hands, How many people on this board believe that on any of our stretch left goalline plays in the last 2 games, a fake hand off/JC rollout would have scored at least 1 TD. I do.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;599272]Can I get a show of hands, How many people on this board believe that on any of our stretch left goalline plays in the last 2 games, a fake hand off/JC rollout would have scored at least 1 TD. I do.[/quote]

JC would score every time on that play...also a playaction pass to Cooley could have scored.

I have no idea what Zorn was thinking. The first time, OK, bad decision...but he TRIED IT AGAIN!

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;599272]Can I get a show of hands, How many people on this board believe that on any of our stretch left goalline plays in the last 2 games, a fake hand off/JC rollout would have scored at least 1 TD. I do.[/quote]

It sure would be worth a try. Why not run a naked boot? Or how about a little play action? We're so predictable at this point you can't tell me a PA fake down there wouldn't work.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Rajmahal33;599263]I don't think I said that's all he throws but certainly his completion stats are padded by them. I believe I said "short and/or safe passes"...but i think it speaks to the overall point that he racks up yards and completions when we are playing from behind against a soft defense. He stays very conservative or absent for stretches during the early to middle parts of games.

But Matty, let's break it down by the quarter, to make sure we are paying "attention" to detail:
[I][B][SIZE=1]"short passes" denote short throws with YAC as determined by play-by-play commentator[/SIZE][/B][/I]

[SIZE=3][B]NYG - 1 intermediate pass completed, 1 deep pass completed[/B][/SIZE]
[U]1Q: 1-1, 7 yds[/U]
1 short pass (7 yds on 3rd and 18); [I][B]ZERO deep or intermediate passes attempted[/B][/I]
[U]2Q: 6-10, 106 yds, 1 INT, 1 FUMBLE for TD[/U];
5 short passes; 1 intermediate pass completed (12yds thru the air, ARE runs for 22 after a broken tackle); [I][B]ZERO deep passes completed[/B][/I]
[U]3Q[B]:[/B] 5-7, 37 yds[/U]
5 short passes; [B][I]ZERO deep or intermediate passes attempted[/I][/B]
[U]4Q: 6-8, 61 yds, 1TD[/U]
5 short passes; [B][I]1 deep pass completed for 17yd-TD with 1:37 left in the game[/I][/B]

[B][SIZE=3]STL -[/SIZE][/B] [B][SIZE=3]3 intermediate passes completed; 1 deep completed[/SIZE][/B]
[U]1Q: 6-10, 52 yds[/U]
5 short passes, 1 intermediate passes (15); [B][I]ZERO deep passes completed[/I][/B]
[U]2Q: 9-15, 96 yds [/U]
7 short passes, 1 intermediate pass (15); [B][I]1 deep pass to Moss for 21[/I][/B]
[U]3Q: 4-5, 47yds[/U]
4 short passes, 1 intermediate pass to ARE; [B][I]ZERO deep passes attemped[/I][/B]
[U]4Q: 4-6, 47yds[/U]
4 short passes (25yd screen pass to betts); [B][I]ZERO intermediate or deep balls completed[/I][/B]

[B][SIZE=3]DET - 3 intermediate passes (2 against prevent), 3 deep passes (1 against prevent)[/SIZE][/B]
[U]1Q: 6-8, 80yds [/U]<--good first drive
5 short passes (1 Moss ran for 21 after breaking tackle); [B][I]1 deep pass to Thomas (18 yds)[/I][/B]
[U]2Q: 2-5, 21yd[/U]
2 short passes in flat with 5 YAC;[B][I] ZERO intermediate or deep passes completed[/I][/B]
[U]3Q: 4-7, 99 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT[/U]
2 short passes, 1 intermediate pass, [B][I]1 BEAUTIFUL deep 57yd TD to Moss[/I][/B]
[U]4Q: 15-21, 133yds, 1 TD[/U] (no huddle offense 8-8 72yds & 4-7 for 48)
12 short passes, 2 intermediate passes, [B][I]1 deep pass to moss for 21 yds against prevent defense[/I][/B]

[B][SIZE=3]TOTAL (thru 3 games): 7 intermediate passes; 5 deep passes...a WHOLE lotta short or conservative throws[/SIZE][/B]

I count 57...Look that's the nature of the WCO, i understand, but let's not make Campbell out to be something that he isnt...an elite QB. Just because he has a high completion percentage and a decent amount of passing yards, it does NOT make him a great QB. Sure he has shown improvement from last year but it's not being reflected in the W-L column or TD #'s thus far.

I was just rationalizing the reasons for the deceptive stats. Most of his yards and completions come on passes less than 10 yards. THOSE ARE THE FACTS![/quote]
:doh:

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Buster;599273]JC would score every time on that play...also a playaction pass to Cooley could have scored.

I have no idea what Zorn was thinking. The first time, OK, bad decision...but he TRIED IT AGAIN![/quote]

As I've repeatedly stated, had Zorn called a naked bootleg on that goal line 4th and 1, JC would have walked untouched. The only defender that could have gotten to him was pretty much out of position to do anything.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Buster;599269]The whole premise of "deceptive facts" is nothing more than petty nitpicking to try to keep your pessimism intact. I do not hear you criticizing Tom Brady for hitting Welker on short slants over 100 times last season.

This is the NFL, not Madden on your Playstation. No team can succeed and win by chucking 40-50 yard bombs every play.

Campbell has shown maturity and efficiency. He HAS been limited by some questionable playcalling by Zorn, especially in the RZ, but he has played extremely well despite having plenty of TDs dropped and been forced to hand off in critical situations.

It sounds like there is nothing JC could do to make you stop hating him.[/quote]

Buster, I think i made it pretty clear that i didn't expect them to bomb it a whole lot since this is a WCO (But go ahead and sensationalize my argument without offering anything but vaque generic statements that everyone knows on ur end).

I DO wanna see us complete a LOT more passes thru three games that are 15+ yards thru the air. If JC and the offense sticks with these numbers, it's gonna be much more of what we saw during the second half of last season. Let's also not forget that we played two of the WORST defenses in the NFL in St. Louis and Detroit!

Matty, i'll agree that scrutinizing their stats would probably show weaknesses in their game, but when you see QB's like Manning, Brady, Warner, Brees, and Rivers stretch the field a whole lot more than we do and have comparable yards per attempt numbers and completion percentages it seems like they take more risks (and ultimately get more rewards). For every three 10 yard plays that JC completes, they are getting a 25 yard play down the field (and maybe missing one as well). Overall, they are scoring more TD's and winning more games...

I will give u that it's still early in the season...so we will see

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Buster;599273]JC would score every time on that play...also a playaction pass to Cooley could have scored.

I have no idea what Zorn was thinking. The first time, OK, bad decision...but he TRIED IT AGAIN![/quote]

if he sets either one up and goes the other way, it will open both options up. Right now, the whole defense keys and overpursues.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Rajmahal33;599281]Buster, I think i made it pretty clear that i didn't expect them to bomb it a whole lot since this is a WCO (But go ahead and sensationalize my argument without offering anything but vaque generic statements that everyone knows on ur end).

I DO wanna see us complete a LOT more passes thru three games that are 15+ yards thru the air. If JC and the offense sticks with these numbers, it's gonna be much more of what we saw during the second half of last season. Let's also not forget that we played two of the WORST defenses in the NFL in St. Louis and Detroit!

Matty, i'll agree that scrutinizing their stats would probably show weaknesses in their game, but when you see QB's like Manning, Brady, Warner, Brees, and Rivers stretch the field a whole lot more than we do and have comparable yards per attempt numbers and completion percentages it seems like they take more risks (and ultimately get more rewards). For every three 10 yard plays that JC completes, they are getting a 25 yard play down the field (and maybe missing one as well). Overall, they are scoring more TD's and winning more games...

I will give u that it's still early in the season...so we will see[/quote]

If Campbell had Russell's or Delhomme's numbers you'd have a point...in the mean time just stop going out of your way to make Campbell look bad.

Again, I don't understand the logic of placing the blame on a single player. It is the most ridiculous thing I've seen on this board (second only to people's outright hate for JC). Shit, you don't see anyone ranting about CP having a terrible year (b/c he's not Jason Campbell).

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Rajmahal33;599263]I don't think I said that's all he throws but certainly his completion stats are padded by them. I believe I said "short and/or safe passes"...but i think it speaks to the overall point that he racks up yards and completions when we are playing from behind against a soft defense. He stays very conservative or absent for stretches during the early to middle parts of games.

But Matty, let's break it down by the quarter, to make sure we are paying "attention" to detail:
[I][B][SIZE=1]"short passes" denote short throws with YAC as determined by play-by-play commentator[/SIZE][/B][/I]

[SIZE=3][B]NYG - 1 intermediate pass completed, 1 deep pass completed[/B][/SIZE]
[U]1Q: 1-1, 7 yds[/U]
1 short pass (7 yds on 3rd and 18); [I][B]ZERO deep or intermediate passes attempted[/B][/I]
[U]2Q: 6-10, 106 yds, 1 INT, 1 FUMBLE for TD[/U];
5 short passes; 1 intermediate pass completed (12yds thru the air, ARE runs for 22 after a broken tackle); [I][B]ZERO deep passes completed[/B][/I]
[U]3Q[B]:[/B] 5-7, 37 yds[/U]
5 short passes; [B][I]ZERO deep or intermediate passes attempted[/I][/B]
[U]4Q: 6-8, 61 yds, 1TD[/U]
5 short passes; [B][I]1 deep pass completed for 17yd-TD with 1:37 left in the game[/I][/B]

[B][SIZE=3]STL -[/SIZE][/B] [B][SIZE=3]3 intermediate passes completed; 1 deep completed[/SIZE][/B]
[U]1Q: 6-10, 52 yds[/U]
5 short passes, 1 intermediate passes (15); [B][I]ZERO deep passes completed[/I][/B]
[U]2Q: 9-15, 96 yds [/U]
7 short passes, 1 intermediate pass (15); [B][I]1 deep pass to Moss for 21[/I][/B]
[U]3Q: 4-5, 47yds[/U]
4 short passes, 1 intermediate pass to ARE; [B][I]ZERO deep passes attemped[/I][/B]
[U]4Q: 4-6, 47yds[/U]
4 short passes (25yd screen pass to betts); [B][I]ZERO intermediate or deep balls completed[/I][/B]

[B][SIZE=3]DET - 3 intermediate passes (2 against prevent), 3 deep passes (1 against prevent)[/SIZE][/B]
[U]1Q: 6-8, 80yds [/U]<--good first drive
5 short passes (1 Moss ran for 21 after breaking tackle); [B][I]1 deep pass to Thomas (18 yds)[/I][/B]
[U]2Q: 2-5, 21yd[/U]
2 short passes in flat with 5 YAC;[B][I] ZERO intermediate or deep passes completed[/I][/B]
[U]3Q: 4-7, 99 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT[/U]
2 short passes, 1 intermediate pass, [B][I]1 BEAUTIFUL deep 57yd TD to Moss[/I][/B]
[U]4Q: 15-21, 133yds, 1 TD[/U] (no huddle offense 8-8 72yds & 4-7 for 48)
12 short passes, 2 intermediate passes, [B][I]1 deep pass to moss for 21 yds against prevent defense[/I][/B]

[B][SIZE=3]TOTAL (thru 3 games): 7 intermediate passes; 5 deep passes...a WHOLE lotta short or conservative throws[/SIZE][/B]

I count 57...[SIZE="5"]Look that's the nature of the WCO, i understand[/SIZE], but let's not make Campbell out to be something that he isnt...an elite QB. Just because he has a high completion percentage and a decent amount of passing yards, it does NOT make him a great QB. Sure he has shown improvement from last year but it's not being reflected in the W-L column or TD #'s thus far.

I was just rationalizing the reasons for the deceptive stats. Most of his yards and completions come on passes less than 10 yards. THOSE ARE THE FACTS![/quote] Since you use size to emphasize points you deem important I figured I'd follow your path. Obviously you don't understand the nature of the WCO. The WCO is built on short passes and RAC/YAC. That is the entire premise of the WCO. If you see the WCO tree we are a direct branch of, Walsh (short passes and YAC) to Holmgren (short passes and YAC) to Zorn (short passes and YAC). It's really hard to take you seriously when your logic is so fundamentally flawed.

I have never seen anyone on this board call JC an elite or great QB, but the other spectrum has been amazing. To read it around here and other places, you'd think he's the second coming of Heath Shuler.

[quote=44Deezel]Bottom line, whatever you think of Campbell, name one other NFL team that would sign him to be their guaranteed, bona fide starter next year if he were to leave the Skins. At best, he would be offered a chance to compete for the starting job on another shitty team. Most teams would sign him to be a backup. Just my opinion.[/quote]
I'm pretty sure Carolina, St. Louis, SF, Oakland, Cleveland, Buffalo and TB would consider him an immediate upgrade to what they have. Which brings up another point. If Campbell leaves next year, who do you propose becomes the starter? Please spare me with the injured 3rd stringer who barely held onto his roster spot thanks to the aforementioned injury.