Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Mattyk72;633472]Except that Fassel did take a team to the SB :confused:

Check Billick's offenses in Minnesota.[/quote]

Fassel did go to the superbowl, but his overall record is just too mediocre for me. He may end up being the best option for us, but I'm still hoping we somehow manage to land Cowher. He's just got the right "attitude" for a division as tough as this one. His teams were always "tough" and thats not something you can say about any of the other coaches who are going to be out there. This team needs a culture change and I think he's the best guy to bring it.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;633482]Fassel did go to the superbowl, but his overall record is just too mediocre for me. He may end up being the best option for us, but I'm still hoping we somehow manage to land Cowher. He's just got the right "attitude" for a division as tough as this one. His teams were always "tough" and thats not something you can say about any of the other coaches who are going to be out there. This team needs a culture change and I think he's the best guy to bring it.[/quote]

My question is, why do we have to settle for mediocrity with coaches that have one SB win in 14 years or another who won with Elway or Billick who had a great D assembled by Ozzie Newsome. I don't want Jack Pardee type coaches coaching this team, I want a young unknown coach like when Gibbs was hired who will be a winner. Is it this bad being a Redskins fans that mediocrity is what we clamor for?

Re: Our next coach??
 

I don't have a huge problem with Shanahan as the head coach. He's very creative and a good offensive mind. Though for all his genius, I would have expected more dominance in the AFC West from him.

But he tends to rotate defensive coaches with relative ease, which ruins continuity on that side. And he's made some very poor personnel decisions both through the draft and free agency-Clarett, Willie Middlebrooks, Courtney Brown, Dale Carter, Quentin Griffin, Leon Lett, Eddie Kennison and so on.

It's easy to sit here and say that Cerrato is the worst personnel man in the league, but upon closer inspection it's hard to say that replacing him Shanahan is a marked improvement.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;633487]I don't have a huge problem with Shanahan as the head coach. He's very creative and a good offensive mind. Though for all his genius, I would have expected more dominance in the AFC West from him.

But he tends to rotate defensive coaches with relative ease, which ruins continuity on that side. And he's made some very poor personnel decisions both through the draft and free agency-Clarett, Willie Middlebrooks, Courtney Brown, Dale Carter, Quentin Griffin, Leon Lett, Eddie Kennison and so on.

It's easy to sit here and say that Cerrato is the worst personnel man in the league, but upon closer inspection it's hard to say that replacing him Shanahan is a marked improvement.[/quote]

It's a little scary to think what he would do with Snyder's checkbook. I mean he really made his share of questionable personnel decisions in Denver. For as much heat as the Skins would get for making iffy moves, it always seemed as if Shanahan was trying to outdo us in the wacky moves dept.

Re: Our next coach??
 

We hear a lot about how bad Mike Shanahan's personnel decsions were. And certainly, he whiffed on quite a few. But sometimes I feel like people tend to overstate those mistakes a bit.

When you look at his last few seasons with the Broncos, he went downhill slightly with records of 9-7, 7-9, and 8-8 in '06, '07, and '08 respectively. Only two of his 14 years in Denver finished with losing records. This year's Broncos are essentially his team, and while they've fallen off the past few weeks, they started out 6-0. So they aren't exactly chopped liver.

With Shanahan in charge of personnel, the worst you can honestly say is that his team started to drift into mediocrity. It's not like he left the organization in the sh*t wagon.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Beemnseven;633505]We hear a lot about how bad Mike Shanahan's personnel decsions were. And certainly, he whiffed on quite a few. [B]But sometimes I feel like people tend to overstate those mistakes a bit.[/B]

When you look at his last few seasons with the Broncos, he went downhill slightly with records of 9-7, 7-9, and 8-8 in '06, '07, and '08 respectively. Only two of his 14 years in Denver finished with losing records. This year's Broncos are essentially his team, and while they've fallen off the past few weeks, they started out 6-0. So they aren't exactly chopped liver.

With Shanahan in charge of personnel, the worst you can honestly say is that his team started to drift into mediocrity. It's not like he left the organization in the sh*t wagon.[/quote]

Probably about as overstated as the Redskins draft mistakes.

Re: Our next coach??
 

Well, we are on the ugly side of .500 for the past ten years with the draft choices we have made.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Beemnseven;633514]Well, we are on the ugly side of .500 for the past ten years with the draft choices we have made.[/quote]

And a .500 record over his last 3 seasons is what got Shanahan fired.

The more I think about Shanahan running things the less I like the idea. I just think we could be in for more of the same like we have with Vinny.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Mattyk72;633521]And a .500 record over his last 3 seasons is what got Shanahan fired.

The more I think about Shanahan running things the less I like the idea. I just think we could be in for more of the same like we have with Vinny.[/quote]

i'm getting there, too. I'd rather go with Shanahan than another Zorn-type guy, though.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;633486]My question is, why do we have to settle for mediocrity with coaches that have one SB win in 14 years or another who won with Elway or Billick who had a great D assembled by Ozzie Newsome. I don't want Jack Pardee type coaches coaching this team, [I]I want a young unknown coach[/I] like when Gibbs was hired who will be a winner. Is it this bad being a Redskins fans that mediocrity is what we clamor for?[/quote]

the problem is, what you want is EXACTLY what Snyder did with Zorn. How's that worked out for us?

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Mattyk72;633521]And a .500 record over his last 3 seasons is what got Shanahan fired.

The more I think about Shanahan running things the less I like the idea. I just think we could be in for more of the same like we have with Vinny.[/quote]

We'll agree to disagree then. To me, Vinny is as close to Shanahan as a '77 Pinto is to an '09 Lexus.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;633487]I don't have a huge problem with Shanahan as the head coach. He's very creative and a good offensive mind. Though for all his genius, I would have expected more dominance in the AFC West from him.

But he tends to rotate defensive coaches with relative ease, which ruins continuity on that side. And he's made some very poor personnel decisions both through the draft and free agency-Clarett, Willie Middlebrooks, Courtney Brown, Dale Carter, Quentin Griffin, Leon Lett, Eddie Kennison and so on.

It's easy to sit here and say that Cerrato is the worst personnel man in the league, but upon closer inspection it's hard to say that replacing him Shanahan is a marked improvement.[/quote]

If you're just talking about improvement in talent evaluation/personnel decisioning skills, then i'd agree with you. I'd even argue that Cerrato is better. However, the problem with Cerrato is that he is essentially a puppet to Snyder and allows Snyder to be involved in the decision-making process. Due to their friendship, that will never change. Cerrato will never tell Snyder no. The same won't be true with someone from the outside.

While Shanahan is not my first choice, if I had to chose between him and Cerrato, i'd chose Shanahan, if for no other reason that it would eliminate Snyder from the equation (other than signing checks of course).

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;633526]the problem is, what you want is EXACTLY what Snyder did with Zorn. How's that worked out for us?[/quote]

That's not necessarily true, Zorn was hired as an OC and when Danny couldn't land Spagnola and others, so he promoted Zorn to HC.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;633538]That's not necessarily true, Zorn was hired as an OC and when Danny couldn't land Spagnola and others, so he promoted Zorn to HC.[/quote]

He hired an unknown and unknowns are more likely to be busts than successes. Unless you think Spagnola is the next Joe Gibbs.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;633532]If you're just talking about improvement in talent evaluation/personnel decisioning skills, then i'd agree with you. I'd even argue that Cerrato is better. However, the problem with Cerrato is that he is essentially a puppet to Snyder and allows Snyder to be involved in the decision-making process. Due to their friendship, that will never change. Cerrato will never tell Snyder no. The same won't be true with someone from the outside.

[B]While Shanahan is not my first choice, if I had to chose between him and Cerrato, i'd chose Cerrato, if for no other reason that it would eliminate Snyder from the equation (other than signing checks of course).[/B][/quote]

Did you mean to say you'd choose Shanahan. Either way, I don't think even Shanahan is going to significantly change Snyder's input. I mean it's not like Snyder stepped in when Cerrato decided he couldn't work with Williams or Fassel or when Cerrato said I'm bringing in Sherman Lewis.

Cerrato needs to go more than anything to give the perception that changes are being made.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;633550]Did you mean to say you'd choose Shanahan. Either way, I don't think even Shanahan is going to significantly change Snyder's input. I mean it's not like Snyder stepped in when Cerrato decided he couldn't work with Williams or Fassel or when Cerrato said I'm bringing in Sherman Lewis.

Cerrato needs to go more than anything to give the perception that changes are being made.[/quote]

Yeah i did, thanks for pointing that out - i guess i'm not very good at multi-tasking...

I agree that perception is a big issue here - what fans want is a Head Coach and GM (whether one person or two) who are "bigger" than Snyder. Frankly, the fans need to feel that the franchise is being run by someone who a) demands immediate respect and b) knows what theyre doing.

Regarding Snyder, I think his involvement mainly relates to offseason player acquisition issues. I think Haynesworth was a great addition to the team, and his impact has been significant, but I don't beleive that Snyder didn't have any input there. I also would be shocked to learn if Snyder wasn't the primary force in pushing to acquire Cutler and Sanchez in the offseason. And do you really think the current playcalling situation is all of Cerrato's devising? Cerrato may have been the one to suggest Sherm specifically, but I fully beleive that he was brought in in an attempt to get Zorn to quit (after Snyders attempts to lure Shanahan [and possibly Gruden and others as well] had failed. A neutral GM wouldnt give a crap about trying to save the owner money by trying to force a coach to resign instead of being terminated (with pay).

I honestly think Cerrato would be fairly good at his job somewhere else - he just either doesnt have the balls or authority to tell snyder to stay out of his way here. I seriously doubt that anyone from the outside (who doesnt play racquetball or go on skiing vacations with the owner would have the same reservations.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;633554]Yeah i did, thanks for pointing that out - i guess i'm not very good at multi-tasking...

I agree that perception is a big issue here - what fans want is a Head Coach and GM (whether one person or two) who are "bigger" than Snyder. Frankly, the fans need to feel that the franchise is being run by someone who a) demands immediate respect and b) knows what theyre doing.

Regarding Snyder, I think his involvement mainly relates to offseason player acquisition issues. I think Haynesworth was a great addition to the team, and his impact has been significant, but I don't beleive that Snyder didn't have any input there. I also would be shocked to learn if Snyder wasn't the primary force in pushing to acquire Cutler and Sanchez in the offseason. And do you really think the current playcalling situation is all of Cerrato's devising? Cerrato may have been the one to suggest Sherm specifically, but I fully beleive that he was brought in in an attempt to get Zorn to quit (after Snyders attempts to lure Shanahan [and possibly Gruden and others as well] had failed. [B]A neutral GM wouldnt give a crap about trying to save the owner money by trying to force a coach to resign instead of being terminated (with pay). [/B]

I honestly think Cerrato would be fairly good at his job somewhere else - he just either doesnt have the balls or authority to tell snyder to stay out of his way here. I seriously doubt that anyone from the outside (who doesnt play racquetball or go on skiing vacations with the owner would have the same reservations.[/quote]

I see your point overall, but it's the owner's team. Better said, it's the owner's business. There really can't be any such thing as a neutral GM. It's the owner's money he's playing with and it's the owner he reports to. No General Manager is going to act without input, sometimes significant input from the owner (or owners). It's like any business. It's the case throughout the league. Some owners may not be as in the public eye as Snyder so it may not appear to be that way, but that's how it is. As I've said before, the only owner I've ever heard that's really entirely hands off is Paul Allen. But even he steps in when it comes to organizational changes.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;633559]I see your point overall, but it's the owner's team. Better said, it's the owner's business. There really can't be any such thing as a neutral GM. It's the owner's money he's playing with and it's the owner he reports to. No General Manager is going to act without input, sometimes significant input from the owner (or owners). It's like any business. It's the case throughout the league. Some owners may not be as in the public eye as Snyder so it may not appear to be that way, but that's how it is. As I've said before, the only owner I've ever heard that's really entirely hands off is Paul Allen. But even he steps in when it comes to organizational changes.[/quote]

You make a good point; although I just can't see Snyder exherting as much control with someone other than Cerrato - he just seems like too much of a "Yes, man." Perhaps Snyder is the type of guy that won't take no for an answer and insists on having "final say" on everything. If thats the case, then were just screwed. However, I'd like to think Cerrato is more of an "enabler" to Snyder and is allowing and relying on his input too much. Conversely, someone from the outside wouldnt solicit his involvement as much. Further, if we had a "big name" in house, someone Snyder respected (and preferably Snyder would be somewhat intimidated by [i.e. Bill Cowher]), then perhaps Snyder would be less inclined to say, "Get me [insert biggest name of the off-season]" every year.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Mattyk72;633521]And a .500 record over his last 3 seasons is what got Shanahan fired.

The more I think about Shanahan running things the less I like the idea. I just think we could be in for more of the same like we have with Vinny.[/quote]Interesting thought: what would Shanahan's last three years have looked like if he didn't have Gibbs/Snyder/Cerrato to frontload him talent? Like, if Champ goes elsewhere, and they don't get the Campbell choice in 2006 to trade up and get Cutler, and also they don't get the Marshall pick.

Would Shanny have even made it to 2008?

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Beemnseven;633528]We'll agree to disagree then. To me, Vinny is as close to Shanahan as a '77 Pinto is to an '09 Lexus.[/quote]

Check into Shanahan's draft misses and get back to me. I don't think the difference between the two is as great as you think.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=GTripp0012;633569]Interesting thought: what would Shanahan's last three years have looked like if he didn't have Gibbs/Snyder/Cerrato to frontload him talent? Like, if Champ goes elsewhere, and they don't get the Campbell choice in 2006 to trade up and get Cutler, and also they don't get the Marshall pick.

Would Shanny have even made it to 2008?[/quote]

Did they pick Marshall w/the 4th that we gave them in the JC deal or was it their pick?

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=freddyg12;633584]Did they pick Marshall w/the 4th that we gave them in the JC deal or was it their pick?[/quote]It was our fourth, I believe, but I can't confirm this.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Mattyk72;633574]Check into Shanahan's draft misses and get back to me. I don't think the difference between the two is as great as you think.[/quote]

I agree, plus Shanahan w/his owners support, was into getting big name pricey free agents just like Snyder et al. Denver's payroll has been close to ours in many years this decade.

Plus, pick for pick Vinny isn't bad IMO, especially if the class of 08 continues to improve. It's the broader decisions that bother me, like deciding a west coast O is needed before a coach is hired.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Mattyk72;633574]Check into Shanahan's draft misses and get back to me. I don't think the difference between the two is as great as you think.[/quote]

i thought that shanahan was the gm for awhile with the broncos but it seems a guy named lundquist (sp?) was the gm from 2002 to 2008.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Mattyk72;633574]Check into Shanahan's draft misses and get back to me. I don't think the difference between the two is as great as you think.[/quote]

Check out the 2007 draft. Not bad.

111[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/players/jaycutler/profile?id=CUT288111"][COLOR=#364c88]Jay Cutler[/COLOR][/URL] QBVanderbilt261[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/players/tonyscheffler/profile?id=SCH095691"][COLOR=#364c88]Tony Scheffler[/COLOR][/URL] TEWestern Michigan4119[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/players/brandonmarshall/profile?id=MAR370922"][COLOR=#364c88]Brandon Marshall[/COLOR][/URL] WRCentral Florida4126[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/players/elvisdumervil/profile?id=DUM179959"][COLOR=#364c88]Elvis Dumervil[/COLOR][/URL] DELouisville4130[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/players/domenikhixon/profile?id=HIX462619"][COLOR=#364c88]Domenik Hixon[/COLOR][/URL] WRAkron

It's hard to evaluate all of his drafts, since I don't know their roster up and down. I do know they have always had young talented players on offense and defense. Cutler (in Denver) lit it up. The guy can play. Their offensive line has always been very good. They could essentially plug in any moderately talented RB and he's a star in Denver. Cutler, B Marshall, OL-men, E Royal, Sheffler, DJ Williams, Dumervil, etc. Shanahan drafted some good talent.

To compare him and Vinny you have to look at the whole thing though. If you just want to compare drafts, I can't imagine VC has drafted better than the Broncos. It's also hard b/c you don't know who VC actually picked. Sounds like JG's picked ST, Cooley, and some others. Who knows though? Right now, right this second it looks like the only impact player that we can be sure VC drafted is Orakpo. Of course thats only a 2 yr sample though.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Mattyk72;633574]Check into Shanahan's draft misses and get back to me. I don't think the difference between the two is as great as you think.[/quote]

For one thing, it wouldn't be a good comparison because Shanahan has had so many more picks than we have.

How about we compare overall records over the last ten years and you get back to me?

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=freddyg12;633587]I agree, plus Shanahan w/his owners support, was into getting big name pricey free agents just like Snyder et al. Denver's payroll has been close to ours in many years this decade.

[I]Plus, pick for pick Vinny isn't bad IMO, especially if the class of 08 continues to improve. It's the broader decisions that bother me, like deciding a west coast O is needed before a coach is hired[/I].[/quote]

I agree with you 100% and those broader decisions are, in my opinion, evidence of Cerrato dutifully carrying Snyder's orders, without "pushing back" the way most other GMs would. If Cerrato gets the axe here and has opportunity to take a GM job elsewhere, I hope he takes it (as opposed to staying on here in some reduced role).

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Beemnseven;633596]For one thing, it wouldn't be a good comparison because Shanahan has had so many more picks than we have.

How about we compare overall records over the last ten years and you get back to me?[/quote]

I've got no problem with Shanahan the head coach, but as a talent evaluator (especially on D) teamed up with Snyder, I just can't buy that we would be that much better off than we are now.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=redsk1;633593]Check out the 2007 draft. Not bad.

111[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/players/jaycutler/profile?id=CUT288111"][COLOR=#364c88]Jay Cutler[/COLOR][/URL] QBVanderbilt261[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/players/tonyscheffler/profile?id=SCH095691"][COLOR=#364c88]Tony Scheffler[/COLOR][/URL] TEWestern Michigan4119[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/players/brandonmarshall/profile?id=MAR370922"][COLOR=#364c88]Brandon Marshall[/COLOR][/URL] WRCentral Florida4126[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/players/elvisdumervil/profile?id=DUM179959"][COLOR=#364c88]Elvis Dumervil[/COLOR][/URL] DELouisville4130[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/players/domenikhixon/profile?id=HIX462619"][COLOR=#364c88]Domenik Hixon[/COLOR][/URL] WRAkron

It's hard to evaluate all of his drafts, since I don't know their roster up and down. I do know they have always had young talented players on offense and defense. Cutler (in Denver) lit it up. The guy can play. Their offensive line has always been very good. They could essentially plug in any moderately talented RB and he's a star in Denver. Cutler, B Marshall, OL-men, E Royal, Sheffler, DJ Williams, Dumervil, etc. Shanahan drafted some good talent.

To compare him and Vinny you have to look at the whole thing though. If you just want to compare drafts, I can't imagine VC has drafted better than the Broncos. It's also hard b/c you don't know who VC actually picked. Sounds like JG's picked ST, Cooley, and some others. Who knows though? Right now, right this second it looks like the only impact player that we can be sure VC drafted is Orakpo. Of course thats only a 2 yr sample though.[/quote]

we also have to keep in mind that the only reason we drafted orakpo is the jets were able to offer more in a deal to trade up and select sanchez. Orakpo was Plan B (or Plan C if you beleive that, despite Cerrato's claims to the contrary, we weren't offering our 2009 1st rounder in a package to land Cutler). Orakpo was a no-brainer pick at 13 this year. Don't get me wrong - I like Cerrato and think he's an average judge of talent, but its not like drafting orakpo was some brilliant stroke of genius on his part.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Mattyk72;633598]I've got no problem with Shanahan the head coach, but as a talent evaluator (especially on D) [I]teamed up with Snyder[/I], I just can't buy that we would be that much better off than we are now.[/quote]

I think the key to getting this team turned around, no matter who the coach and GM are, is that Snyder can't be pulling the strings. He certainly can say who he will and won't spend money on (e.g. "If you want Player X, I'll pay whatever I have to to get him here," or "I don't want this guy at all" or even, "I need you to sign one big name guy in free agency, the draft, or by executing a trade, because I need to sell tickets/jerseys/whatever, etc.) - but thats it. Beyond that, he needs to let the coach and GM do the jobs he's paying them to do. If that doesn't happen, then things around here simply arent going to change.

The irony here is that if Snyder actually hires the right coach and the right GM, and this team becomes a perennial contender, then the team will have enough young talent and enough draft picks to "afford" allowing him to "meddle" and hand-pick a player or two that he wants on the roster without destroying the whole thing. unfortunately, when a team is this thin on depth, talent, and character, it simply cant afford to make any mistakes.

Re: Our next coach??
 

It looks like I'm quickly becoming the chairman of the committee to hire Mike Shanahan, so, as such, here's a list of his accomplishments to chew on for those that aren't convinced.

Accomplishments[LIST][*]Posted the most wins in pro football history during a three-year period (46 in 1996–98). [*]Won the most postseason games in history over a two-year period (seven, 1997–98). [*]Been undefeated and untied for three consecutive regular seasons (1996–98) at home, just the second team ever to be undefeated and untied at home in three consecutive years. The Miami Dolphins posted three consecutive seasons of untied undefeated home records from 1972 to 1974. Including playoff games, the Dolphins had won 31 consecutive home games from 1971 to 1974. Oddly enough, in 1999 on the opening Monday Night Football game, the Miami Dolphins ended the defending Super Bowl champion Denver Broncos streak with a 38–21 win in Denver. [*]In 2004, he joined the exclusive club of head coaches to post 100 wins in his first 10 seasons with one club, finishing the campaign and decade tied for fourth on this ultra-impressive list of 12 coaches, six of whom are enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. [*]Has the second most victories against the Oakland Raiders with a record of 21–7. Only Marty Schottenheimer has a better W–L record with a 27–6 record against the Raiders. [*]Joins Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Chuck Noll, Jimmy Johnson and Bill Belichick as the only six coaches to win back-to-back Super Bowls. [*]He is the second coach in history to win two Super Bowl titles in his first four years coaching a team (Shula did it first with the Miami Dolphins in 1972 and 1973 and Belichick did it later, winning two Super Bowls in his first four seasons in New England in 2001 and 2003). [*]Highest winning percentage in Denver history (.646). [*]Shanahan is among seven coaches in pro football history to post four wins in one postseason along with Tom Flores, Joe Gibbs, Brian Billick, Bill Cowher, Tony Dungy and Tom Coughlin. [*]The all-time high of 636 points in a season came from the 1994 Super Bowl Champion San Francisco 49ers, for whom Shanahan was the offensive coordinator. This was eclipsed during the 2007 season when the New England Patriots scored 589 points in the regular season and 66 points in the postseason for a total of 655 points. [*]During his NFL career, Shanahan has been a part of teams that have played in 10 Conference Championship Games, in addition to his six Super Bowl appearances, five with Denver and Super Bowl XXIX with San Francisco.[/LIST]
I know there are skeptics when it comes to Shanahan as a personnel evaluator. Since he basically had control over this area in Denver, though not the actual title of GM, I maintain that his success with the Broncos couldn't have been possible if he's as awful a personnel decision-maker as some seem to believe.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=over the mountain;633589]i thought that shanahan was the gm for awhile with the broncos but it seems a guy named lundquist (sp?) was the gm from 2002 to 2008.[/quote]

I think it was Sundquist, not Lundquist. But, to my earlier point, he (like Heckert in Philadelphia) was really just the GM in name only.

I mean that's not to discredit Sundquist, who is apparently highly regarded, or the work he put in. Just that Shanahan had final say.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Beemnseven;633607]I know there are skeptics when it comes to Shanahan as a personnel evaluator. Since he basically had control over this area in Denver, though not the actual title of GM, I maintain that his success with the Broncos couldn't have been possible if he's as awful a personnel decision-maker as some seem to believe.[/quote]

Here's what also know. His teams were pretty pedestrian his last few years there when the personnel was his and his only. He won superbowls with a HOF QB he didn't pick and a stud RB. He also had Gary Kubiak and Alex Gibb coaching his offense. On top of that his defenses were decent but not out of this world. I don't think there is a lot on his resume that screams "He is the guy to fix this team". He basically took an already successful team and pushed them over the top for a few years by adding a good RB. Once that formula dried up due to age he didn't duplicate it. It was downhill from there.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;633610]I think it was Sundquist, not Lundquist. But, to my earlier point, he (like Heckert in Philadelphia) was really just the GM in name only.

I mean that's not to discredit Sundquist, who is apparently highly regarded, or the work he put in. Just that Shanahan had final say.[/quote]

Well, ultimately, we'd have to know when Shanahan went against Sundquist and how it turned out to to know whether or not Shanahan really messed up by excercising his right of final say. Really, these decisions should all be somewhat collaborative anyways.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Beemnseven;633607]It looks like I'm quickly becoming the chairman of the committee to hire Mike Shanahan, so, as such, here's a list of his accomplishments to chew on for those that aren't convinced.

Accomplishments[LIST][*]Posted the most wins in pro football history during a three-year period (46 in 1996–98). [*]Won the most postseason games in history over a two-year period (seven, 1997–98). [*]Been undefeated and untied for three consecutive regular seasons (1996–98) at home, just the second team ever to be undefeated and untied at home in three consecutive years. The Miami Dolphins posted three consecutive seasons of untied undefeated home records from 1972 to 1974. Including playoff games, the Dolphins had won 31 consecutive home games from 1971 to 1974. Oddly enough, in 1999 on the opening Monday Night Football game, the Miami Dolphins ended the defending Super Bowl champion Denver Broncos streak with a 38–21 win in Denver. [*]In 2004, he joined the exclusive club of head coaches to post 100 wins in his first 10 seasons with one club, finishing the campaign and decade tied for fourth on this ultra-impressive list of 12 coaches, six of whom are enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. [*]Has the second most victories against the Oakland Raiders with a record of 21–7. Only Marty Schottenheimer has a better W–L record with a 27–6 record against the Raiders. [*]Joins Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Chuck Noll, Jimmy Johnson and Bill Belichick as the only six coaches to win back-to-back Super Bowls. [*]He is the second coach in history to win two Super Bowl titles in his first four years coaching a team (Shula did it first with the Miami Dolphins in 1972 and 1973 and Belichick did it later, winning two Super Bowls in his first four seasons in New England in 2001 and 2003). [*]Highest winning percentage in Denver history (.646). [*]Shanahan is among seven coaches in pro football history to post four wins in one postseason along with Tom Flores, Joe Gibbs, Brian Billick, Bill Cowher, Tony Dungy and Tom Coughlin. [*]The all-time high of 636 points in a season came from the 1994 Super Bowl Champion San Francisco 49ers, for whom Shanahan was the offensive coordinator. This was eclipsed during the 2007 season when the New England Patriots scored 589 points in the regular season and 66 points in the postseason for a total of 655 points. [*]During his NFL career, Shanahan has been a part of teams that have played in 10 Conference Championship Games, in addition to his six Super Bowl appearances, five with Denver and Super Bowl XXIX with San Francisco.[/LIST]
I know there are skeptics when it comes to Shanahan as a personnel evaluator. Since he basically had control over this area in Denver, though not the actual title of GM, I maintain that his success with the Broncos couldn't have been possible if he's as awful a personnel decision-maker as some seem to believe.[/quote]

Most of those accomplishments were in the '90s and Elway was the QB. Post-Elway his accomplishments are much thinner.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Beemnseven;633596]For one thing, it wouldn't be a good comparison because Shanahan has had so many more picks than we have.

How about we compare overall records over the last ten years and you get back to me?[/quote]

The point that he has had alot more picks sais ALOT right there. Oh yeah, the winning thing too.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Lotus;633668]Most of those accomplishments were in the '90s and Elway was the QB. Post-Elway his accomplishments are much thinner.[/quote]

That's what I always think when I think Shanahan. Gibbs won SB's with 3 different QB's.

Re: Our next coach??
 

how many of you believe in a shannahan HC, Sherm Lewis OC combination? In this scenario the deal has already been done and although Mike denied taking the HC job during the season, but he did tell them to hire Lewis as a "consultant" that will convert to OC with him next season.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=diehardskin2982;633686]how many of you believe in a shannahan HC, Sherm Lewis OC combination? In this scenario the deal has already been done and although Mike denied taking the HC job during the season, but he did tell them to hire Lewis as a "consultant" that will convert to OC with him next season.[/quote]

Well it was Steve Mariucci that suggested the Lewis hiring

Re: Our next coach??
 

Call me crazy: I think Zorn should stay HC and be able to draft his own qb like so many other coaches get to do--- the coined term "his guy". If we keep Lewis who has our offense not looking so bad, we've got our 3rd year in the same system, same coach, more developed players (davis, kelly, thomas, rhinehart). We draft qb and o line, and i feel more confident in that than starting fresh again. we should let zorn continue to build his staff.

im basically saying this because I don't like shanahan. he only accomplished what he did because of davis and elway. Broncos were good at best in his tenure otherwise.