Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

This team is more than a one year project......for anyone.
Dumping Gruden at this juncture would confirm the apparent incompetence of our front office, thus assuring we never have an opportunity to sign a decent coach....

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

Look at Houston. They have a new HC and have improved over last year with virtually the same players.plus their qb situation is arguably worst then ours.

The everything Gruden thread
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;1099789]This team looks similar to last year which tells me it's more on the players. Maybe another guy gets a few more wins out of this group, but at best this is a 6 win team.[/QUOTE]


At very best.
I also do not think the qb's have regressed under him. Thats bull. They both sucked last year too.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

I don't see how any qb situation is worse. Forget athletic talent injury alone has rotated 3 qbs in and out. No head coach is succeeding with this o-line. None period. You can't set deep, 3 steps get batted down, etc etc

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;1099790]This team is more than a one year project......for anyone.

Dumping Gruden at this juncture would confirm the apparent incompetence of our front office, thus assuring we never have an opportunity to sign a decent coach....[/QUOTE]


Stop being so sensible. That is not the Redskin way. Lets just assume the guy that inherited a complete disaster that took YEARS to build sucks because he wasnt able to turn burning shit into gold bars with no cap money, no first round pick, and the worst DC in history that was "given" to him, in 13 WEEKS! Holy crap everybody.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Hog1;1099790]This team is more than a one year project......for anyone.
Dumping Gruden at this juncture would confirm the apparent incompetence of our front office, thus assuring we never have an opportunity to sign a decent coach....[/quote]


Putting a new system in place and getting the right kind of people is always a multi-year project. The question is do you have have enough confidence to continue with Gruden? This is classic cost benefit and risk analysis, just be mindful of who your analysts are.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=mredskins;1099791]Look at Houston. They have a new HC and have improved over last year with virtually the same players.plus their qb situation is arguably worst then ours.[/quote]

Same story in Detroit and Cleveland (pre-Manziel lol). Tampa still blows.

Gruden has more talent to work with this year than we had last year and more help all around. Special teams better this. Defense had some strong games this season and we have a legit passrush playmaker in Kerrigan now but defense overall is pretty close.

Gruden was coddled in Cincy folks! Elite defense backing him up with a ton of talent to work with on offense. Elite oline and best WR in pro football.

And most importantly he wasn't tasked to lead anything/anybody. Lewis' players run through walls for him and so do Zimmer's.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

Oh yeah lol Zimmer in Minn is another good rookie coach example.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1099794]I don't see how any qb situation is worse. Forget athletic talent injury alone has rotated 3 qbs in and out. No head coach is succeeding with this o-line. None period. You can't set deep, 3 steps get batted down, etc etc[/quote]

There are plenty of teams with bad lines. The Seahawks had 3 no namers step in last season and ball. Perhaps the problem isn't the line but the fact the Redskins:

a) don't know how to coach players up.
b) we don't now how to make adjustments and work around line issue.
c) we don't know how to draft or acquire capable linemen.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

I can't remember seeing a Skins team beat themselves so badly week in and week out. We actually have a top-12 offense and defense yet we consistently lose because we consistently do stupid things: miss simple coverages, miss simple blitz pickups, make pointless personal fouls, get kicked out of games, etc.

This undiscipline is on Gruden.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[QUOTE=Rotten1980;1099797]Same story in Detroit and Cleveland (pre-Manziel lol). Tampa still blows.



Gruden has more talent to work with this year than we had last year and more help all around. Special teams better this. Defense had some strong games this season and we have a legit passrush playmaker in Kerrigan now but defense overall is pretty close.



Gruden was coddled in Cincy folks! Elite defense backing him up with a ton of talent to work with on offense. Elite oline and best WR in pro football.



And most importantly he wasn't tasked to lead anything/anybody. Lewis' players run through walls for him and so do Zimmer's.[/QUOTE]


Only major difference is DJax, and had he been on this quarterbackless team last year it would not have mattered. We are missing DHall this year and it has hurt our D terribly.

Whats Cincys offense doing this year without him? A whole lotta mediocrity.
Thank you come again.

I get that you hate Gruden, but its as if the last time you watched them was 1991 and than just started again this year.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[QUOTE=Lotus;1099803]I can't remember seeing a Skins team beat themselves so badly week in and week out. We actually have a top-12 offense and defense yet we consistently lose because we consistently do stupid things: miss simple coverages, miss simple blitz pickups, make pointless personal fouls, get kicked out of games, etc.



This undiscipline is on Gruden.[/QUOTE]


You are kidding right? You cannot remember? Try last year.
I am not going to say Gruden is up for coach of the year or anything, but can we stop pretending we were on the verge of something great until Gruden came and ruined it all??

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=punch it in;1099806]You are kidding right? You cannot remember? Try last year.
I am not going to say Gruden is up for coach of the year or anything, but can we stop pretending we were on the verge of something great until Gruden came and ruined it all??[/quote]

IMO Last year we were beaten more on the basis of talent, especially the talent of our depth. And sure, we still have some talent problems.

But this year IMO we have better talent but spend more time doing really stupid things. And we do these stupid things every single week. IMO we were stupid, but not as stupid, last year.

And even if we disagree on this, the essential point remains that we can't win until we stop being so stupid.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

I think Gruden needs to go. At some point this season Jay decided that it is more important to get RG3 out of here, then winning games or developing talent. All of the players have regressed, even D.Jax. Gruden has not instilled confidence. Instead he has worked to teardown his players. I get not wanting to hitch your wagon to a QB you don't like, but honestly he needs to work with the roster that he put together.

Bring Todd Bowles as HC

The everything Gruden thread
 

[QUOTE=Lotus;1099808]IMO Last year we were beaten more on the basis of talent, especially the talent of our depth. And sure, we still have some talent problems.



But this year IMO we have better talent but spend more time doing really stupid things. And we do these stupid things every single week. IMO we were stupid, but not as stupid, last year.



And even if we disagree on this, the essential point remains that we can't win until we stop being so stupid.[/QUOTE]


Beaides DJax who is this talent we have as opposed to last year? If you dont have a QB it is hard to maximize your new talent at WR.
We are missing DHall this year. That is huge. I dont see any talent difference at all really.
I think you are greatly underestimating the stupidity and shooting of the proverbial feet this team was famous for for many years before Gruden got here. Lol.
You are correct about the fact that we have to fix stupid, and im banking on cap money, a first round pick and a new DC to help Gruden do this.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=punch it in;1099811]Beaides DJax who is this talent we have as opposed to last year? If you dont have a QB it is hard to maximize your new talent at WR.
We are missing DHall this year. That is huge. I dont see any talent difference at all really.
I think you are greatly underestimating the stupidity and shooting of the proverbial feet this team was famous for for many years before Gruden got here. Lol.
You are correct about the fact that we have to fix stupid, and im banking on cap money, a first round pick and a new DC to help Gruden do this.[/quote]

Fine.

Still, the stupid stuff needs to stop. Joe Gibbs did not win three Super Bowls with people missing simple cover 2 assignments. Coaches of the good teams make sure that their folks don't do the stoopid crap.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=diehardskin2982;1099810]I think Gruden needs to go. At some point this season Jay decided that it is more important to get RG3 out of here, then winning games or developing talent. All of the players have regressed, even D.Jax. Gruden has not instilled confidence. Instead he has worked to teardown his players. I get not wanting to hitch your wagon to a QB you don't like, but honestly he needs to work with the roster that he put together.

Bring Todd Bowles as HC[/quote]

Why would Todd Bowles sign with a team that just fired a coach after one losing season? See, that's the problem. We can have an interesting discussion about whether or not Gruden sucks as a HC, but firing him at this point would do a a lot of damage to this organization. It's already an organization that has a reputation as being a place coaches go to kill their careers. Why make it even worse? The Skins cannot fire Gruden this year, no matter how badly they may think he sucks.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Coff;1099814]Why would Todd Bowles sign with a team that just fired a coach after one losing season? See, that's the problem. We can have an interesting discussion about whether or not Gruden sucks as a HC, but firing him at this point would do a a lot of damage to this organization. It's already an organization that has a reputation as being a place coaches go to kill their careers. Why make it even worse? The Skins cannot fire Gruden this year, no matter how badly they may think he sucks.[/quote]

There are only 32 head coaching jobs, of those 32, only a fraction become available, boils down to simple math combined with the law of supply and demand. If Gruden is fired someone, will take the job, period.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=punch it in;1099811]Beaides DJax who is this talent we have as opposed to last year? If you dont have a QB it is hard to maximize your new talent at WR.
We are missing DHall this year. That is huge. I dont see any talent difference at all really.
I think you are greatly underestimating the stupidity and shooting of the proverbial feet this team was famous for for many years before Gruden got here. Lol.
You are correct about the fact that we have to fix stupid, and im banking on cap money, a first round pick and a new DC to help Gruden do this.[/quote]

You are exactly right. Besides Djax it's largely the same players and same coaches. A one Gruden for two Shannys trade.

Who are these pro bowlers the front office brought in who everyone keeps alluding to?

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

If it wasnt for DJax this past off-season would be a total whiff by the front office.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=punch it in;1099811]Beaides DJax who is this talent we have as opposed to last year? If you dont have a QB it is hard to maximize your new talent at WR.
We are missing DHall this year. That is huge. I dont see any talent difference at all really.
I think you are greatly underestimating the stupidity and shooting of the proverbial feet this team was famous for for many years before Gruden got here. Lol.
You are correct about the fact that we have to fix stupid, and im banking on cap money, a first round pick and a new DC to help Gruden do this.[/quote]

Keim's post game observations touch on the discussion here. Especially the comparison to Arizona and the culture Jay inherited:

[url=http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins]Washington Redskins Blog - ESPN[/url]

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=DirtBagZ;1099829]There are only 32 head coaching jobs, of those 32, only a fraction become available, boils down to simple math combined with the law of supply and demand. If Gruden is fired someone, will take the job, period.[/quote]

Someone will always take an available job but what's the agenda and quality of that someone? Competent people don't sign up for bad situations with tons of restrictions. Gruden is a testament to this notion.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=irish;1099859]If it wasnt for DJax this past off-season would be a total whiff by the front office.[/quote]

This is a point that needs to be made over and over again. Really, everything after Shanahan was fired has been horrible. The hiring of Gruden hasn't worked. The other decisions on the coaching staff (retaining Haslett, McVay, Forester, Morris, hiring Kotwica) haven't worked. None of the free agents have worked. Jackson is the exception because without him we may be looking at a 1-15 season. Breeland seems like the only draft pick worth a damn.

In the 5 years since Bruce Allen has been in the organization the franchise has gotten appreciably worse in every single way, which 5 years ago seemed IMPOSSIBLE! Can you imagine that we're so much worse since Vinny F'n Cerrato left?!?!? We've lost 10+ games every season except 2012. He was at least in part responsible for:
-McNabb trade
-$36 million salary cap penalty
-Griffin trade
-Gruden hire and related coaching decisions

While Gruden may not be the sole problem, he's a major symptom and definitely not part of the solution.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Paintrain;1099874]This is a point that needs to be made over and over again. Really, everything after Shanahan was fired has been horrible. The hiring of Gruden hasn't worked. The other decisions on the coaching staff (retaining Haslett, McVay, Forester, Morris, hiring Kotwica) haven't worked. None of the free agents have worked. Jackson is the exception because without him we may be looking at a 1-15 season. Breeland seems like the only draft pick worth a damn.

In the 5 years since Bruce Allen has been in the organization the franchise has gotten appreciably worse in every single way, which 5 years ago seemed IMPOSSIBLE! Can you imagine that we're so much worse since Vinny F'n Cerrato left?!?!? We've lost 10+ games every season except 2012. He was at least in part responsible for:
-McNabb trade
-$36 million salary cap penalty
-Griffin trade
-Gruden hire and related coaching decisions

While Gruden may not be the sole problem, he's a major symptom and definitely not part of the solution.[/quote]

+1. The good news is Allen owns the dumpster.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=punch it in;1099795]Stop being so sensible. That is not the Redskin way. Lets just assume the guy that inherited a complete disaster that took YEARS to build sucks because he wasnt able to turn burning shit into gold bars with no cap money, no first round pick, and the worst DC in history that was "given" to him, in 13 WEEKS! Holy crap everybody.[/quote]

Answer this for me.. What has Gruden done to give you confidence that next year (and subsequent years) with a 1st round pick, cap money and a new defensive coordinator that he's the right guy?

It seems like many of the support for Gruden returning is based on:
-We don't want to 'send the wrong message' by firing a guy after one year.
-We don't want to hear 'same old Redskins' by firing a guy after one year.
-We don't want to start all over again by firing a guy after one year.
-We don't want to look stupid for firing a guy after one year.

But what the thread is light on is, we probably have the right guy in place based on XYZ and that's why he should return. Looking for reasons to support him.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

No one has a chance to be successful with the OL that has been on the field. No coach, no quarterback, no one.

IMO, Long will probably start at one G spot next year, so they need to plan on finding a new RT and C for sure. Scherff or Ogbuehi will be available in the top 5. Or trade down to acquire as many usable picks for this year in Rounds 1 and 2. But no matter what, two of them must be spent on OL that can start week 1 next year.

[url=http://walterfootball.com/draft2015OT.php]WalterFootball.com: 2015 NFL Draft: Offensive Tackle Rankings[/url]
[url=http://walterfootball.com/draft2015OG.php]WalterFootball.com: 2015 NFL Draft: Guard Rankings[/url]
[url=http://walterfootball.com/draft2015C.php]WalterFootball.com: 2015 NFL Draft: Center Rankings[/url]

It must be done.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain;1099877]Answer this for me.. What has Gruden done to give you confidence that next year (and subsequent years) with a 1st round pick, cap money and a new defensive coordinator that he's the right guy?



It seems like many of the support for Gruden returning is based on:

-We don't want to 'send the wrong message' by firing a guy after one year.

-We don't want to hear 'same old Redskins' by firing a guy after one year.

-We don't want to start all over again by firing a guy after one year.

-We don't want to look stupid for firing a guy after one year.



But what the thread is light on is, we probably have the right guy in place based on XYZ and that's why he should return. Looking for reasons to support him.[/QUOTE]


Due to the complete shitshow he inherited the jury is still out. I have never once said Gruden is a great or even good coach. I simply think it is not fair to fire him for turning a 3-13 team into a 3-13 team without the benefit of the cap money, first round pick, and a real DC.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=punch it in;1099887]Due to the complete shitshow he inherited the jury is still out. I have never once said Gruden is a great or even good coach. I simply think it is not fair to fire him for turning a 3-13 team into a 3-13 team without the benefit of the cap money, first round pick, and a real DC.[/quote]

So I'm not trying to be a dick here, I really am trying to understand... So you're saying because he didn't make a 3-13 team worse he deserves another chance? One minor correction, they had a good bit of cap money (Roberts, Hatcher, D-Jax, Lavauo, Orakpo, Sharpton, Jordan, Clark, Porter were all FA signings) but just did a horrendous job with it. Allen takes most of that weight but Gruden wasn't an innocent bystander to it all. I'm still trying to get why it's not fair to fire him based on what we've seen.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Paintrain;1099877]Answer this for me.. What has Gruden done to give you confidence that next year (and subsequent years) with a 1st round pick, cap money and a new defensive coordinator that he's the right guy?

It seems like many of the support for Gruden returning is based on:
-We don't want to 'send the wrong message' by firing a guy after one year.
-We don't want to hear 'same old Redskins' by firing a guy after one year.
-We don't want to start all over again by firing a guy after one year.
-We don't want to look stupid for firing a guy after one year.

But what the thread is light on is, we probably have the right guy in place based on XYZ and that's why he should return. Looking for reasons to support him.[/quote]

I have been looking for reasons to support him but I am under no delusions that the front office will change it's make-up or philosophy. I would rather get some competency in the FO and if they choose to clean house great.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

Can anyone name one reason why Gruden should stay beyond not wanting to change the coach after one year?

I mean with Schottenheimer it was a boneheaded move to dump him as the team had gone 8-8 (a very respectable first season result)

Gruden looks headed to a 3-13 result after having blown through three QB's.

Has he done anything to earn a return?

Ignore the drama of firing a coach after one season, is there any reason to keep him? Any at all? Is the team any better now than it was last season? Any signs that we'll even get to a decent record of 7-9 next year?

If someone can give me a good reason to keep him around for next year, then I'll go along with it, just one.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain;1099890]So I'm not trying to be a dick here, I really am trying to understand... So you're saying because he didn't make a 3-13 team worse he deserves another chance? One minor correction, they had a good bit of cap money (Roberts, Hatcher, D-Jax, Lavauo, Orakpo, Sharpton, Jordan, Clark, Porter were all FA signings) but just did a horrendous job with it. Allen takes most of that weight but Gruden wasn't an innocent bystander to it all. I'm still trying to get why it's not fair to fire him based on what we've seen.[/QUOTE]


I dont know how much input Gruden had on those signings, maybe Smoot does? Bottom line is this team sucked and I dont think there are many coaches out there that could do really much better. He has also had to deal with playing three different qb's. Not really his doing there. I think that he deserves another year.
I dont think your being a dick at all. Lol. Your opinion is he sucks. Maybe he does. I want to give the guy another year with hopefully a better GM, DC, and steady QB. Also im saying because he didnt make a 3-13 better, not worse.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm not going to be too upset if Gruden is retained or fired. I'll be more upset if there is no change in the front office at all.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=skinsguy;1099902]I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm not going to be too upset if Gruden is retained or fired. I'll be more upset if there is no change in the front office at all.[/quote]

Winner winner chicken dinner!

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

I understand going for it on 4th and whaterver calls when we are getting hammered...mostly

But why the hell did we not kick a field goal get points and go into the half? It would have been 13-7 and getting the ball back at the half.....

soooo reminicent of the swinging gate, inventing ways to lose

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=skinsguy;1099902]I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm not going to be too upset if Gruden is retained or fired. I'll be more upset if there is no change in the front office at all.[/quote]

I can agree with this sentiment. Without major (not just giving AJ Smith the GM title) front office/football operations/philisophical changes, it doesn't matter if Jay Gruden, Jon Gruden, Jim Gruden, Jack Gruden or Jesus Gruden is on the sidelines. The results will still be the same. As it relates to Gruden for me, in the midst of the mess, I haven't seen anything that's encouraging to me that even with those changes that he's capable of making us a winner.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

I think we need a priest to perform an exorcism or maybe a witchdoctor that can lift the curse.
I also have to disagree with Paintrain - Ill take Jesus Gruden in a heartbeat. He would be a great asset for tapping into the Mexican Football League.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Kope;1099910]I understand going for it on 4th and whaterver calls when we are getting hammered...mostly

But why the hell did we not kick a field goal get points and go into the half? It would have been 13-7 and getting the ball back at the half.....

soooo reminicent of the swinging gate, inventing ways to lose[/quote]

wasnt there 11 seconds or so on the clock?

that should be more than enough time if your QB understands he cant run a 12 second play that doesnt result in a TD.

5 seconds or less, you kick the field goal.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=over the mountain;1099915]wasnt there 11 seconds or so on the clock?

that should be more than enough time if your QB understands he cant run a 12 second play that doesnt result in a TD.

5 seconds or less, you kick the field goal.[/quote]

Most cases in the NFL I would agree with you 100%. But this is not most cases in the NFL, and I would have tried to make sure the team got some sort of points before the half. Just pissed me off we got nothing. I think it was the right call too....that made me more mad.

So clear from my armchair tho

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

Gruden just looks lost out there and this offense looks nothing like the Bengals did. Hell was he even calling plays there? Doesn't seem like it

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

Bruce Allen does not need to be fired, IMO. His responsibility needs to be changed. He is the Manager and a good one at that. He needs to hire the executive cook (GM). He already has him on staff in AJ Smith. AJ needs to pick the players and then Bruce needs to negotiate the contracts and be the buffer for Snyder.

Gruden needs to be traded to the Raiders or another team, he is just not a fit for this atmosphere. It would workout better for all parties involved if they let another team take on that pay check.