Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=Chico23231;866479]Gabbert was a dinker and dunker in college, and a dinker and dunker in the NFL. Accuracy issues[/quote]

Also a f'ing pansy based on the games I've seen. His game seems to be about avoiding hits more than anything at this point.

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;866535]@ diehard

Have u seen cam play this season? Big time deep ball accuracy, obviously runs the ball better than any QB other than Vick and has way better accuracy than most thought. He'll be around for a LONG time[/quote]

I wouldn't go that far. Too soon to be making statements like this.

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;866528]Cam Newton is a Freak of nature, Luck is the only QB I'd take over Cam in this draft[/quote]

Thing is, Cam is already taken if I recall correctly. Maybe we can trade Rex, Beck and a conditional 7th rounder for Cam? :)

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;866535]@ diehard

Have u seen cam play this season? Big time deep ball accuracy, obviously runs the ball better than any QB other than Vick and has way better accuracy than most thought. He'll be around for a LONG time[/quote]

Yes but does he know all the words to the Oscar Meyer song?

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;866520]I'm sure you've heard of Cam Newton and Andy Dalton? Luck, Barkley and possibly RGIII could be just as good or better next year.[/quote]Your making my point for me.
Show me 1 expert that thought Cam or Dalton would be as good as they are now?
Historically, its a 50-50 shot a QB prospect will even pan out.
I think we all start getting ahead of ourselves when we say that are sure: instant starters at a pro-bowl level.

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

Although I didn't have Gabbert as one of my top QBs there is no question that he was and remains a talented prospect that can make all the throws.
I had questions about him, but despite my questions I think its extremely presumptive to look at Gabbert and have a definitive opinion on him as an NFL QB.

I think its also wrong to look at Gabbert with the Jags and assume that he would be the same QB in our system with our coaching as he is with the Jags.
I think Mike/Kyle's scheme is clearly superior to the Jags.

Gabbert started off in a tough spot.
He's playing before he's ready without a QB mentor to show him the ropes.
He's playing for a disfunctional organization that had a lame duck HC.

I've watched a a few Jags games and the offense seems to make no effort to run anything remotely like what he ran at Mizzou, heck they barely get out of base personell (part of the goes back to the FO they lack weapons) they don't boot/waggle often to take advantage of his speed.
I saw at stat that said they were tops in the league in run attempts on 1st down but with how much they run the ball from base personnel 1st down would be a great down for them to have balance and pass to exploit the going up against run defenses.
I could go on.....

But, its not like Gabbert is without fault.
I think his greatest problem is comfort in the pocket both in response to real pressure and in perceived pressure which prevents him from stepping into his throws and causes happy feet which sometimes causes e.g. a 5 step drop with a needless hitch or shuffle step which causes the ball to come out late instead of a 5 step drop back foot hits ball out on time.
^^But that again speaks to coaching because its a common problem that young QBs have when they don't trust what they see or don't trust their protection or aren't comfortable all of which can be helped through playcalling.

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

Back on topic.

I asked Dave Razzono this question:
What do you think of Griffin III vs Andrew Luck? Is Russell Wilson a draftable QB?

He ignored the second question but...
[QUOTE=@DaveRazzano] Luck size and athletic skill are obvious. Griffin better pure passer, more accurate
[/QUOTE]@DaveRazzano
[url]https://twitter.com/#!/DaveRazzano[/url]

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

thanx 30.. RG a better passer?

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

Here's a great scenario for your all.

would you all rather have the 1st overall pick or the 2nd and 3rd overall picks, in this years draft?

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

2nd and 3rd of course

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=30gut;866625]Your making my point for me.
Show me 1 expert that thought Cam or Dalton would be as good as they are now?
Historically, its a 50-50 shot a QB prospect will even pan out.
I think we all start getting ahead of ourselves when we say that are sure: instant starters at a pro-bowl level.[/quote]

But all of the talk that Cam's stock was falling didn't keep him from being the first overall pick. Locker and Gabbert who some had rated higher than Cam were picked way later. Where are they now? I mean, Cam's throws were way off, alarmingly so at the combine. What is it to look for about these QBs? Is it just a Luck of the draw, fingers crossed?

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;866632]2nd and 3rd of course[/quote]

It wasn't that long ago when the skins had two selections in the top five. Back in 2000: Samuels (3rd) and Arrington (2nd).

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=diehard;866639]It wasn't that long ago when the skins had two selections in the top five. Back in 2000: Samuels (3rd) and Arrington (2nd).[/quote]


2 good players

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=diehard;866638]But all of the talk that Cam's stock was falling didn't keep him from being the first overall pick. Locker and Gabbert who some had rated higher than Cam were picked way later. Where are they now? I mean, Cam's throws were way off, alarmingly so at the combine. What is it to look for about these QBs? Is it just a Luck of the draw, fingers crossed?[/quote]
I can't tell if your really asking my opinion or this is some internet forum I told you so ploy...but my view anyway.....

I think draftniks like ourselves falsely assume that the media scouts and other draftniks are actually privvy to the opinions of actual NFL scouts/GM/Execs.

But those guys guard there scouting profiles/opinions like the kremlin.
Pretty much anything a scout/GM/execs tell a member of the scouting media right now is either a half-truth or out and out lie aimed at probing for information and pushing their own agenda.

I think first and foremost skillset is what matters.
Nothing else.
If you can make an accurate comparative assessment of skillset between the prospects you can find out how the prospect should rank.

But its very important to realize that knowing where/how the prospects rank only forms an accurate assessment.
Making an accurate assessment is quite different from making a prediction. (which is a myth)
Scouting imo isn't about prediction its about evaluation.

I look for a bunch of different traits but I differ greatly to the minds of the greats like Bill Walsh who values [I]playmaking[/I].
Imo its the most important trait.
Next for me is coachability but sadly its an intangible that is impossible to assess from sitting on my couch or computer chair.
Imo intangibles are thee most importants traits but at the same time I realize that its unknowable form my vantage point.

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

From the man himself:
[quote=How I Evaluate Each Position:

Quarterback

By Bill Walsh

]QUARTERBACK

Ideal size: 6-3, 210

To become a great quarterback, there must be instincts and intuition. This is the area that can be the difference between a very solid quarterback and a great quarterback. This isn't an area you can do much with as a coach. You can certainly bring a quarterback up to a competitive standard, but to reach greatness the quarterback must possess that inherently, ala Billy Kilmer, Sonny Jurgensen, Ken Stabler and Warren Moon.

If throwing a ball were the only aspect of playing quarterback, then this would be an easy position to evaluate. However, because of the dynamic role he plays on the team, a quarterback must have physical, mental, emotional and instinctive traits that go well beyond the mere ability to pass a football.

Still, if he can't pass, he obviously won't be a good quarterback either. For now, let's assume our quarterback candidate has shown an ability to throw the ball.

Now, he must be courageous and intensely competitive. He will be the one on the field who is running the team. His teammates must believe in him or it may not matter how much physical ability he has. If he is courageous and intensely competitive, then other players will know and respect that. This will be a foundation for becoming a leader.

Naturally, he will have to perform up to certain physical standards to maintain that respect and become a leader.

Arm strength is somewhat misleading. Some players can throw 80 yards, but they aren't good passers. Good passing has to do with accuracy, timing, and throwing a ball with touch so it is catchable. This all involves understanding a system, the receivers in the system, and having great anticipation. It is a plus to be able to throw a ball on a line for 35 yards, but not if it is off target or arrives in such a way that it is difficult to catch.

Remember, the goal of passing a ball is to make sure it is caught ... by your intended receiver.

You look at how complete an inventory of throws a quarterback possesses -- from screen passes to timed short passes to medium range passes and down the field throws. This complete range. For the scout, not having a complete inventory does not eliminate the quarterback. But you are looking to evaluate in all facets and distances and types of passes in throwing the ball.

There have been quarterbacks of greatness, Hall of Fame quarterbacks, who didn't have a complete inventory of passes. But you're looking to see the potential of the quarterback in each area. You can see where the emphasis of the offense would be if he were with your team.

A quick delivery , one that is not telegraphed to help the defense, gives the quarterback an advantage when he finds his intended target. That's when it is essential to get the ball "up and gone'' with no wasted motion. Some of this can be acquired by learning proper technique. But to a certain degree, a quick release is related to a quarterback's reaction time between spotting his receiver and getting the ball "up and gone.''

Touch is important, especially in a medium range passing game. One of Joe Montana's most remarkable skills was putting the right touch on a pass so that it was easily catchable by a receiver, who often did not have to break stride.

The ability to read defenses is not something that players have learned to a high degree coming out of college. Even if they have, the pro defenses are very different. But most systems require quarterbacks to look at primary and secondary receivers, usually based on the defense that confronts him. You can see if he locates that secondary receiver -- or maybe even an emergency outlet receiver -- with ease or with a sense of urgency.

This should work like a natural progression, not a situation where it's -- "Oh, my gosh, now I must look over here ... no, over there.'' You can see which quarterbacks handle these situations with grace. These are the types who have a chance to perform with consistency in the NFL.

Mobility and an ability to avoid a pass rush are crucial. Some quarterbacks use this mobility within the pocket just enough so they are able to move and pass when they "feel" a rush. But overall quickness and agility can make a remarkable difference. As an example, there were some very quick boxers in Sugar Ray Leonard's era, but he was quicker than they were and because of that he became a great champ.

Quarterbacks must be able to function while injured. The pro season is about twice as long and more punishing than a college season. They are vulnerable to getting hit hard every time they pass. They must be able to avoid being rattled, get up and show they are in control and can continue to lead the offense.

The single trait that separates great quarterbacks from good quarterbacks is the ability to make the great, spontaneous decision, especially at a crucial time. The clock is running down and your team is five points behind. The play that was called has broken down and 22 players are moving in almost unpredictable directions all over the field.

This is where the great quarterback uses his experience, vision, mobility and what we will call spontaneous genius. He makes something good happen. This, of course, is what we saw in Joe Montana when he pulled out those dramatic victories for Notre Dame.[/quote]

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=30gut;866649]From the man himself:[/quote]

Sounds like he is describing Luck and Barkley.

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

Heard Michael Lombardi on Inside the NFL saying that he believes that Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck Can NOT exist. He said he would hate to be the GM who has to deal with the situation and has heard that the Colts would love to have Peyton, the known, be their QB next year, instead of Luck, the unknown. He said that the Colts don't have to solve their QB problems now, and that they can solve them next year, or later in the draft...(stay tuned)

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=30gut;866371]I hope Philly gets rid of Reid and Morningwhig goes with him.
Removing the offensive staff from Philly will set that team back for awhile and all but erase them from contention.

But, I don't think Philly is that dumb.
The perception is that Vick has regressed, but I don't think its evident with his play.
I think the team around him is worse on the OL at WR and Vick is suffering as consequent.
But, a metric I like to use for judging QB play is ESPN TQBR and they have Vick top 10 or near it and I think that is an accurate assessment of how he has played this season.[/quote]No, Vick hasn't regressed. He performed fine this year. It was just that last year his interception rate was fluky low and this year it is fluky high. The real Vick is somewhere in the middle. The WRs have been total trash this year. Maclin can't stay on the field and Jackson, at times, is a stiff. Riley Cooper is not a pro football player.

But at the same time, the idea that Vick is a franchise QB ignores that he can't play more than 12 games a season because of his durability. And their backup situation was better last year. I think Kafka will be ready for an extended role next year, they still need to address the position.

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

Where's the Heisman poll?

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

I think its a forgone conclusion that RG3is going to win the Heisman.........

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;866650]Sounds like he is describing Luck and Barkley.[/quote]

[quote=Bill Walsh]The single trait that separates great quarterbacks from good quarterbacks is the ability to make the great, spontaneous decision, especially at a crucial time. The clock is running down and your team is five points behind. The play that was called has broken down and 22 players are moving in almost unpredictable directions all over the field.

This is where the great quarterback uses his experience, vision, mobility and what we will call spontaneous genius. He makes something good happen. This, of course, is what we saw in Joe Montana when he pulled out those dramatic victories for Notre Dame. [/quote]

[YT]hMm2qGMGV8Q[/YT]

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=30gut;866699][YT]hMm2qGMGV8Q[/YT][/quote]

THAT was quite a throw.

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=30gut;866699][YT]hMm2qGMGV8Q[/YT][/quote]

That was one hell of a sweet throw.

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

Well, he won it.
He'd look nice in burgundy and gold.

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

Give me RGIII over Barkley because he elevated the players around him. Everyone knows USC gets big time talent unlike Baylor gets lower level talent.

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

I still don't think it'll be either of those guys. I think the name you're going to hear a lot of next April in connection with the Skins is Tannehill

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

Ok so are drafting tannehill with the first pick, trading down, or waiting till second round?

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=musicmaster45;866747]Ok so are drafting tannehill with the first pick, trading down, or waiting till second round?[/quote]

It'd be nice to get blackmon with the first, and tannehil w/ the second. Overall, I'd prefer we'd not play a guessing game with a project QB. For once, I want that QB other fans wish they had... Can we please draft Barkley?

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

Revised rankings:

1. Andrew Luck
2a. Robert Griffin
2b. Matt Barkley
2c. Nick Foles
5. Kellen Moore
6a. Kirk Cousins
6b. Landry Jones
8. Ryan Tannehill
9. Dominique Davis
10. Chandler Harnish
11. Case Keenum
12. Brandon Weeden
13. Jacory Harris
14. Ryan Lindley
15. G.J. Kinne

Haven't seen B.J. Coleman yet.

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=musicmaster45;866747]Ok so are drafting tannehill with the first pick, trading down, or waiting till second round?[/quote]

I don't know. Maybe we'll take him with our first pick. Maybe Luck, Barkley, and RGIII won't be even be available even if they did want them. Maybe we'll add a 2nd first round pick by moving up from the 2nd round.

I really don't know. I could be totally wrong. A couple of years ago I had a feeling very early that we'd take Trent Williams...and we did. Last year I thought it was Robert Quinn...and we didn't (though I did have Kerrigan in my final mock). This year, I just have a feeling about Tannehill. I just think he's the guy the Shanahans are truly targeting

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;866750]I don't know. Maybe we'll take him with our first pick. Maybe Luck, Barkley, and RGIII won't be even be available even if they did want them. Maybe we'll add a 2nd first round pick by moving up from the 2nd round.

I really don't know. I could be totally wrong. A couple of years ago I had a feeling very early that we'd take Trent Williams...and we did. Last year I thought it was Robert Quinn...and we didn't (though I did have Kerrigan in my final mock). This year, I just have a feeling about Tannehill. I just think he's the guy the Shanahans are truly targeting[/quote]

Tannehill doesn't have the rocket arm shanahan covets... Plus why would they draft a project player so high in the draft? I just hope your intuition is wrong in this instance.

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;866749]Revised rankings:

1. Andrew Luck
2a. Robert Griffin
2b. Matt Barkley
2c. Nick Foles
5. Kellen Moore
6a. Kirk Cousins
6b. Landry Jones
8. Ryan Tannehill
9. Dominique Davis
10. Chandler Harnish
11. Case Keenum
12. Brandon Weeden
13. Jacory Harris
14. Ryan Lindley
15. G.J. Kinne

Haven't seen B.J. Coleman yet.[/quote]

Foles is a 2nd round possibility. I know they've scouted Davis and Harnish as potential later round selections. I think Kinne as well, but I'm not 100% sure

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=mbedner3420;866752]Tannehill doesn't have the rocket arm shanahan covets... Plus why would they draft a project player so high in the draft? I just hope your intuition is wrong in this instance.[/quote]

I think he's got a pretty strong arm. Also, if we're picking in the top 5 then no I don't think it'll be Tannehill. Sorry, should have been clearer. But I don't think we'll necessarily take a QB in the top 5 either.

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

I have no questions about Tannehill's arm. But I think if the Redskins or any other team take him in the first round, they need to be willing to let him use his legs and open field running ability. My sense is that if you take his downfield running ability out of the equation, you're left with a pretty limited player.

I think Tannehill is a solid first rounder if a team is going to use his entire skill set. But if you have coaches who like to take a player and try to fit him into a scheme, I'd put him between the second and third round depending on how well he fits the scheme. I didn't think Texas A&M let Ryan Tannehill run enough from the shotgun to win a lot of games in the Big XII.

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=mbedner3420;866752]Tannehill doesn't have the rocket arm shanahan covets....[/quote][I]Ryan[/I] Tannehill? I'm not sure which games you've watched but in every game that I've seen Tannehill displays above average velocity on all the litmus test NFL throws. (deep out and deep comeback from the far hash, deep sideline, seam route)

Plus he's doing it in an offense that is a direct variant of Mike Shanahan/Kubiak offense.

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

Well, Tannehill is definitely an intriguing prospect. He certainly can make all the throws, but does he have that special "playmaking" ability, and can he become a "LEADER" on the team, exactly what our offense needs?. Someone to make them believe that this team is turning around?

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

Did anyone ever confirm that Kalil is staying?

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;866753]Foles is a 2nd round possibility. I know they've scouted Davis and Harnish as potential later round selections. I think Kinne as well, but I'm not 100% sure[/quote]

Do you have any explanation as to why they haven't scouted Barkley harder? Just curious.

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

Did anyone ever confirm that Mat Kalil is staying at USC?

Re: 2012 QB Prospects (Part 2)
 

[quote=mbedner3420;867244]Do you have any explanation as to why they haven't scouted Barkley harder? Just curious.[/quote]

Technically they can't do anything more than watch his games since he's not a senior and hasn't declared so the scouting of him is limited.

And Kalil hasn't made any decision yet