Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]For the people that say Ramsey wasn't given the same chance that Brunell was given last year, how many games should Ramsey have been given?

Should we have waited until we were on the brink of being eliminated from the playoff race? Should we have waited until the bye week to make a switch?

Just curious, if Ramsey was struggling and the team was losing, how long would you wait to make a change?[/QUOTE]

what makes you think we'd be eliminated? you're going a bit too far with the hypotheticals and assuming ramsey would suck but somehow brunell wont...

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]if he promised it to brunell and then publicly stated ramsey was his starter for 7 months, i'd say thats much more two faced then just seeing brunell playing well and deciding to make a switch.[/QUOTE]

maybe I need to reword my question, what if he publicly stated Brunell was his starter, and then made the switch?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]maybe I need to reword my question, what if he publicly stated Brunell was his starter, and then made the switch?[/QUOTE]

i personally think that ramsey gives us a better shot and has more upside, but I guess it'd depend on how they were playing. I don't think the difference here was big enough to warrant the change.

Whatever, we'll see how he plays. I just think if he had such misgivings about his promise, he should have said something earlier, cause it was obvious he wanted to.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]For the people that say Ramsey wasn't given the same chance that Brunell was given last year, how many games should Ramsey have been given?

Should we have waited until we were on the brink of being eliminated from the playoff race? Should we have waited until the bye week to make a switch?

Just curious, if Ramsey was struggling and the team was losing, how long would you wait to make a change?[/QUOTE]

no waiting for the brink of elimination we tried already with Brunell. i'd say four whole games. were we losing in those first 19 minutes?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]maybe I need to reword my question, what if he publicly stated Brunell was his starter, and then made the switch?[/QUOTE]

like last year? it meant we won more games, so i'd definitely support it.

it's wrong to peg all of us as Ramsey-lovers. we're basing our arguments on facts not feelings. if Brunell tore it up last year, i'd be all for this decision, but he didn't. he was the worst QB in the league.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]like last year? it meant we won more games, so i'd definitely support it.

it's wrong to peg all of us as Ramsey-lovers. we're basing our arguments on facts not feelings. if Brunell tore it up last year, i'd be all for this decision, but he didn't. he was the worst QB in the league.[/QUOTE]
But some of the facts also show that Brunell is a better QB now than he was last year. I can't believe how people have completely written off Brunell after he had at the very least a vastly improved training camp over last season. I am in the camp that believes Ramsey should be the starter but I also can admit that maybe, just maybe, Brunell has something,eft in the tank. I wouldn't have made the change but Gibbs, whose knows a lot more than me, did and that says something. Brunell showed he was healthy and did some goodthings in pre-season which amounts to a hill of beans but at least there is some hope.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]what makes you think we'd be eliminated? you're going a bit too far with the hypotheticals and assuming ramsey would suck but somehow brunell wont...[/QUOTE]

That's why it's called a hypothetical.

Why are you assuming Brunell will suck?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

My real problem, I suppose, is that the ability of a quarterback shouldn't take nine games to measure (like last year), but shouldn't take 19 minutes either (like this year). In our vocal complaining last year that Gibbs took too long to make the change, we never anticipated that he'd be this quick with the hook this year.

He's also set an ugly precedent. If Brunell has an inefficient game on Monday with a few ill-advised turnovers, is it even possible to re-insert Ramsey after the way he was pulled? Would the insertion of Campbell be "giving up" on the season? Would keeping Brunell in after a poor performance hurt the chemistry of the team given the recent move?

If Mark Brunell has a game like Sunday's - which projects to about 100 yards passing on 20 attempts with the team getting 4 FGs - what's the mood going to be like on the offense?

More importantly, what does Peter King think?!?!?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

If anything is going to give me hope, it's the fact that Brunell did in fact, go deep on many pass routes in the preseason and was deadly accurate on most of them.

Second stringers or not, you can't take away accuracy.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG]But some of the facts also show that Brunell is a better QB now than he was last year. I can't believe how people have completely written off Brunell after he had at the very least a vastly improved training camp over last season. I am in the camp that believes Ramsey should be the starter but I also can admit that maybe, just maybe, Brunell has something,eft in the tank. I wouldn't have made the change but Gibbs, whose knows a lot more than me, did and that says something. Brunell showed he was healthy and did some goodthings in pre-season which amounts to a hill of beans but at least there is some hope.[/QUOTE]

i agree there's hope, but sooo early in the season, i just think it's wiser to base your decisions on regular season games, not practice and 2nd half preseason.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]like last year? it meant we won more games, so i'd definitely support it.

it's wrong to peg all of us as Ramsey-lovers. we're basing our arguments on facts not feelings. if Brunell tore it up last year, i'd be all for this decision, but he didn't. he was the worst QB in the league.[/QUOTE]

Ramsey hasn't exactly tore it up either and he was ranked near the bottom of the league in several categories as well.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]That's why it's called a hypothetical.

Why are you assuming Brunell will suck?[/QUOTE]

cuz of his performance in the regular season last year? when he was 34? think thats a reasonable basis to assume dont you? sure, he may have improved in the regular season, but its sucks that we didn't get to see if Ramsey did too.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]cuz of his performance in the regular season last year? when he was 34? think thats a reasonable basis to assume dont you? sure, he may have improved in the regular season, but its sucks that we didn't get to see if Ramsey did too.[/QUOTE]

Do you think Ramsey improved from the end of last season to the start of this season?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

Let's not forget that Gibbbs hasn't named Brunell the starter indefinitely - just for right now. We'll "work our way through this" are his words.

Translation: If Brunell doesn't produce and Patrick is still on board, mentally and physically w/team, he'll get another shot. Although, I don't think the latter is a likely scenerio.l

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]Do you think Ramsey improved from the end of last season to the start of this season?[/QUOTE]

you know what TAFKAS? i have NO idea. i wish he was in a regular season situation long enough to even get a read. i really don't think practice and the preseason is where the real story is told, and even if it was, i think Ramsey played well enough to start a couple of whole games.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=BrudLee]My real problem, I suppose, is that the ability of a quarterback shouldn't take nine games to measure (like last year), but shouldn't take 19 minutes either (like this year). In our vocal complaining last year that Gibbs took too long to make the change, we never anticipated that he'd be this quick with the hook this year.

He's also set an ugly precedent. If Brunell has an inefficient game on Monday with a few ill-advised turnovers, is it even possible to re-insert Ramsey after the way he was pulled? Would the insertion of Campbell be "giving up" on the season? Would keeping Brunell in after a poor performance hurt the chemistry of the team given the recent move?

If Mark Brunell has a game like Sunday's - which projects to about 100 yards passing on 20 attempts with the team getting 4 FGs - what's the mood going to be like on the offense?

More importantly, what does Peter King think?!?!?[/QUOTE]

If Brunell stinks on Monday, or even if he just makes a few TOs, he won't get yanked. That's because he's always worked with a much longer leash from Joe than Ramsey was allowed. Don't ask me to explain why, because I can't fathom anything that Joe is doing lately. So, better get used to Brunell (TOs, weak arm and all), because he'll be in there unless he gets hurt. He was allowed a leash of 9 games last year before even Joe had to admit that things were so bad that a change was needed. Why should I believe it will be any different this year?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]cuz of his performance in the regular season last year? when he was 34? think thats a reasonable basis to assume dont you? sure, he may have improved in the regular season, but its sucks that we didn't get to see if Ramsey did too.[/QUOTE]

[color=black]Last year is what it is.[/color]

[color=black]But, look at the whole picture. Call me crazy, but I've said before that it's hard to believe that a quality QB like Brunell all of a sudden just lost it. Sure those things do happen, I'm not saying it's not possible, but based on his past success over the course of his career along with his improved play this preseason, I think it's worth giving him a 2nd shot. After seeing him this preseason it appears that last year might have been more of a fluke than an indication his career was over. [/color]

[color=black]People seem to be hanging on the potential of Ramsey, he might do this, and he might be able to do that. But what about the potential of Brunell? Why is this being completely dismissed? Because of one bad stretch last year? [/color]

[color=black]To clarify I'm not talking about long-term potential with Brunell. Obviously he's nearing the end of his career, I'm talking about short-term potential. Who's to say he can't go back in and be a productive and winning QB for this team? Plenty of QBs have their most productive years in their 30s nowadays. Plenty of players have an off year or even a bad year, only to turn around and resurrect their careers.[/color]

[color=black]People have seemingly closed the book on Brunell, and I think that might be a bit premature. Remember when Gibbs said the final chapters on Brunell haven't been written yet? We all thought he was crazy. Then after a solid preseason many of us raised our eyebrows and said hmmm, maybe he wasn't kidding. [/color]

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]you know what TAFKAS? i have NO idea. i wish he was in a regular season situation long enough to even get a read. i really don't think practice and the preseason is where the real story is told, and even if it was, i think Ramsey played well enough to start a couple of whole games.[/QUOTE]

A 65 QB rating with 4 INTs was playing well enough to start a few games?

The preseason wasn't enough for you to say he was shaky, ok that's fine I guess.

But were you there all during the offseason workouts, during minicamps and training camp?

I'm not saying I was either, but obviously Gibbs has a better grasp of the situation than any of us do, and I guess I'm blindly following him but I trust he understands the situation much better than we do and I'm 110% sure his decision is based on the entire offseason and preseason and not just 3 series against the Bears.

He's had the entire offseason and preseason to show he's done with making bad decisions, holding on to the ball too long and turning it over. I don't know how anyone can honestly say he's done that. He just hasn't. Gibbs obviously doesn't see a quick fix in store for Ramsey, so why let him continue to struggle and potentially hurt the team's chances at getting out to a good start.

Least year he struggled in the preseason, did anyone want him starting last year at this time? By the end of the season he was much improved, and perhaps the same thing will happen again this year. I just don't see how anyone can say he's ready right now though.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

it's the favoring of a couple of 2nd half preseason performance as a standard over 16 regular season games i have a problem with.

Strahan, Kearse, and Ware on the road in a division game is light years different from Billy Bob who isn't even given the whole scheme, in the second half of a preseason game with a team we won't even play in the regular season.

last season is the best indication of real performance under fire we really have, and should have at least earned Ramsey more than a quarter of play is all.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]it's the favoring of a couple of 2nd half preseason performance as a standard over 16 regular season games i have a problem with.

Strahan, Kearse, and Ware on the road in a division game is light years different from Billy Bob who isn't even given the whole scheme, in the second half of a preseason game with a team we won't even play in the regular season.

last season is the best indication of real performance under fire we really have, and should have at least earned Ramsey more than a quarter of play is all.[/QUOTE]

Regardless of the competition, Brunell's passes had something behind them and he was on target. You just can't deny that.

As for Ramsey, I guess Gibbs should have just tossed out the offseason and preseason in his mind and said Ramsey deserves to start because of what he did at the end of the 2004 season? His performance since then should have no merit in the evaluation process?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

practicing in shorts against people who don't have million dollar incentives based on injuring you is even more light years away than the regular season. i'm sure Brunell sparkled just as bright in practice and preseaon as he did last season, but again, we all know what happened after that.

that's what makes this all so hard, that Gibbs had 'seen something' and bet on Brunell before, and he LOST. to see the exact same scenario happen again with an even older QB, and less practice reps has to be the *biggest leap of faith* in his career.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]A 65 QB rating with 4 INTs was playing well enough to start a few games?

The preseason wasn't enough for you to say he was shaky, ok that's fine I guess.

But were you there all during the offseason workouts, during minicamps and training camp?

I'm not saying I was either, but obviously Gibbs has a better grasp of the situation than any of us do, and I guess I'm blindly following him but I trust he understands the situation much better than we do and I'm 110% sure his decision is based on the entire offseason and preseason and not just 3 series against the Bears.

He's had the entire offseason and preseason to show he's done with making bad decisions, holding on to the ball too long and turning it over. I don't know how anyone can honestly say he's done that. He just hasn't. Gibbs obviously doesn't see a quick fix in store for Ramsey, so why let him continue to struggle and potentially hurt the team's chances at getting out to a good start.

Least year he struggled in the preseason, did anyone want him starting last year at this time? By the end of the season he was much improved, and perhaps the same thing will happen again this year. I just don't see how anyone can say he's ready right now though.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Coach Gibbs is coach for good reason so let's let him coach, shall we. He has the ability to make the calls for the best of the team (as a whole) not just in the QB position. I personally think he was giving Ramsey a really "generous" chance to begin with by giving him the starting position. Yeah, I know Brunnell was horrible last year to say the least but that was 2004-2005 season, we are a year later and from what I have seen (this year) be it scrimmage, preseason or the first 19 minutes of game 1, season 2005-2006, a change needs to be made at QB and coach has the skill and knowledge to make changes as needed and that is what he did in this case.

For all that are calling Joe "a liar", would you rather have him stick to a preseason call to name Patrick as the starter QB or win football games....call me crazy or selfish even, but I would like to start winning football games.

At this point, if Brunnell does not produce and coach chooses to pull him after the first 15 minutes of game 2 and start Campbell, that's fine with me as long as we win football games.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Regardless of the competition, Brunell's passes had something behind them and he was on target. You just can't deny that.

As for Ramsey, I guess Gibbs should have just tossed out the offseason and preseason in his mind and said Ramsey deserves to start because of what he did at the end of the 2004 season? His performance since then should have no merit in the evaluation process?[/QUOTE]

nah, I won't deny it. but i've seen Brunell look great in the limited circumstances of preseason before. i've seen specks of brilliance in regular season play from him too. what i haven't seen is Brunell take it through a whole real game. maybe its the conditioning of a mid-thirties QB, i don't know.

if we get 80% of "preseason Brunell" in regular season games i think we'd go deep into the playoffs, but we don't get that. i guess Gibbs is betting on things being different enough for him to try again.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]That's why it's called a hypothetical.

Why are you assuming Brunell will suck?[/QUOTE]

I was just saying that in YOUR post you stated ramsey would suck which also implied that brunell for reason wont. There's no gaurantees either one will be any good, so talking about how ramsey was going to lead us to the brink of elimination without mention brunell (who's already done it to us) is shortsighted.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Ramsey hasn't exactly tore it up either and he was ranked near the bottom of the league in several categories as well.[/QUOTE]

but brunell was DEAD LAST. its going to be hard to defend or apologize for his stats last year. and both had more TOs than TDs.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]Do you think Ramsey improved from the end of last season to the start of this season?[/QUOTE]

I don't know, in 19 minutes its pretty f**king hard to tell.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

He played a lot of preseason games, should have given us an idea. Just like we've always known about him, it's feast or famine when Ramsey is in the game.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72][color=black]Last year is what it is.[/color]

[color=black]But, look at the whole picture. Call me crazy, but I've said before that it's hard to believe that a quality QB like Brunell all of a sudden just lost it.[/color][/QUOTE]

kurt warner.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

At this point, I'm done arguing this. Mark Brunells play will decide it for all of us. As long as he is a solid, content QB, who can make a few plays when he has to, were going to be fine. We are not a football team that relies completley on our QB. If Brunell can make some throws on 3rd down, and keep defenses honest, we're going to be fine. However if he looks anything like he did last season, even if its just this week against Dallas, sh*t is going to hit the fan.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]He played a lot of preseason games, should have given us an idea. Just like we've always known about him, it's feast or famine when Ramsey is in the game.[/QUOTE]

Brunell rocked last season's preseason too, those are very special and limited circumstances. *if only* it translated 1:1 to the regular season..

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]A 65 QB rating with 4 INTs was playing well enough to start a few games?

The preseason wasn't enough for you to say he was shaky, ok that's fine I guess.

But were you there all during the offseason workouts, during minicamps and training camp?
[/QUOTE]

GAMES, measure his progress in real meaningful games, not worthless fluff. Not everyone is being used, not everyone is playing hard, and the first two games were CLEARLY nothing near a real offense (testing deep passes etc).

I don't think anyone here was calling for brunell BEFORE the bears game, but it sucks that everyone's magically transformed their opinions overnight so they can continue to be gibbs apologists.

NEITHER QB has proved their worth their contracts, but this crap about how preseason means nothing goes out the window once it supports your/gibbs position?

Roth should be tossed, manning, they all sucked in preseason, bench them all. No other starters got benched after 1 int and 19 minutes this season. If you think gibbs decision is the best for the team that's fine, but i'm not buying this ramsey is horrible compared to brunell crap, they both suck equally. Ramsey just keeps defenders 10 yards farther down the field.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=ladyfan06]
For all that are calling Joe "a liar", would you rather have him stick to a preseason call to name Patrick as the starter QB or win football games....call me crazy or selfish even, but I would like to start winning football games.
[/QUOTE]

calling gibbs a liar and wanting to win games aren't mutually exclusive. You can say he made the move he thought he needed to to win games, but still know that he told EVERYONE every chance he got that ramsey was the starter up until 19minutes into the game. technically he never lied, but in spirit its pretty obvious what he said and what he really wanted/was going to do were very different things.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

52 pages and we haven't settled this yet??? LOL ;)

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

I don't know if this has been discussed but what I have read says that its a rumor that Ramsey has request to be traded. Jansen said while Ramsey is disappointed he said nothing to him about wanted to be traded and they are good friends.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

It's a good thing for the NFL that Favre wasen't a redskin under Gibbs, as eratic as he was early on he would be backing up in the arena league by the time Gibbs got through with him, instead of the NFL darling that he has become.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=JWsleep]52 pages and we haven't settled this yet??? LOL ;)[/QUOTE]

Hopefully it will be settled very soon, with the Brunell people being right (even tho i'm a Ramsey guy). I said it before and I'll say it again tho, this place might have to shut down for a week if Brunell plays like ass on Monday.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=illdefined]Brunell rocked last season's preseason too, those are very special and limited circumstances. *if only* it translated 1:1 to the regular season..[/QUOTE]Rocked? Both Brunell and Ramsey sucked last year in preseason and the starting spot went to the one who sucked the lease. If I remember correctly Hasselback looked just as good as they did.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

This is what it all boils down to for me:

If Gibbs came out and said Ramsey is starting this week, I would have supported the decision 110%.

Instead he came out and said it's going to be Brunell, and again I support the decision 110%.

He's doing what he believes is best for the Redskins. He's not trying to win a popularity contest, he's trying to win football games.

Do I think Brunell is so much better than Ramsey at this point, no I don't. But I guess you can call me a loyal soldier. I'm falling in line and standing behind the coach. If Gibbs says we're going to battle with Brunell at the helm this week, then Brunell is my guy.

Rather than trying to swim against the tide, I'm trying to put myself in Gibbs' shoes to try to rationalize the decision. I can understand arguments from both sides, but in the end I'm going to side with the coach and trust his judgement.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=firstdown]Rocked? Both Brunell and Ramsey sucked last year in preseason and the starting spot went to the one who sucked the lease. If I remember correctly Hasselback looked just as good as they did.[/QUOTE]


Your on the money FD, Everyone assumes because Brunell was named the starter by Gibbs after a 42 mil contract [what a surprise] that he blew Ramsey away, not the case, 1 pass play seperated the 2 of them, and that was a long TD pass from brunell to McCants, and you are right about Hasselbach except for 1 point he looked better than both of them in pre-season, wonder why HE didn't start?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)
 

[QUOTE=firstdown]Rocked? Both Brunell and Ramsey sucked last year in preseason and the starting spot went to the one who sucked the lease. If I remember correctly Hasselback looked just as good as they did.[/QUOTE]

point is Brunell was picked over Ramsey because of his offseason work. Gibbs bet on that and lost. he's doing that exact same thing again only this time with an even older, less practiced Brunell.