Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;473934]Understand that I'm not saying we couldn't achieve peace in Iraq -- I just don't think it is why we are there. In fact, I believe everything our government does (and most/all others) is rooted in self-interest.[/quote]

Well of course it is.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=70Chip;473978]The American people seem to like McCain's choice if the polls are to be believed. Clearly, the Democrats were right to be frightened of her. She's a definite force multiplier. If the left cannot destroy her, and they will try to destroy her, they may do what seemed unthinkable just days ago...LOSE. And boy, that would just be a million laughs. If they can't win this year, they may as well go the way of the Whigs.[/quote]

I still they'll win.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

I honestly don't know how anyone who voted for George Bush twice can actually look at themselves in the mirror and say "I voted for a better America." What a disaster. It's not just my opinion. The man has the lowest approval rating of any President.
Ever. Well done. Go Palin.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

If they pick Sarah to draw attention to the ticket and throw a wrench into the election I think it worked. Obama's speach thread had 44 post and this thread has 523.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=wilsowilso;474031]I honestly don't know how anyone who voted for George Bush twice can actually look at themselves in the mirror and say "I voted for a better America." What a disaster. It's not just my opinion. The man has the lowest approval rating of any President.
Ever. Well done. Go Palin.[/quote]

Well I voted for him twice and he's been a disaster. And if he was up against Obama I'd vote for him again because while GW's policies might have pissed a lot of people off and many were certianly crap I see Obama's policies as causing irrevocable damage to our country. Sometimes voting comes down to who does less damage. Acually most of the time it comes down to that nowadays unfortunately.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=wilsowilso;474031]I honestly don't know how anyone who voted for George Bush twice can actually look at themselves in the mirror and say "I voted for a better America." What a disaster. It's not just my opinion. The man has the lowest approval rating of any President.
Ever. Well done. Go Palin.[/quote]


well, he won twice, so at the time his approval rating was much higher. no one can predict the future. plus look who he was running against. the dems have not had a worthy candidate in a long time, this year included.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=wilsowilso;474031]I honestly don't know how anyone who voted for George Bush twice can actually look at themselves in the mirror and say "I voted for a better America." What a disaster. It's not just my opinion. The man has the lowest approval rating of any President.
Ever. Well done. Go Palin.[/quote]
Congressional approval rating is significantly lower. What a disaster. We do agree tho...Go Palin.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=FRPLG;474044]Well I voted for him twice and he's been a disaster. And if he was up against Obama I'd vote for him again because while GW's policies might have pissed a lot of people off and many were certianly crap I see Obama's policies as causing irrevocable damage to our country. Sometimes voting comes down to who does less damage. Acually most of the time it comes down to that nowadays unfortunately.[/quote]

I did the same, and for the same reasons. I still have no doubt that Bush was the better option than Gore and Kerry. (IMO the worst two democratic candidates ever back to back.)

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

It's hard to imagine anyone doing a shittier job than W, who is perhaps the worst President ever.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=Mattyk72;474091]It's hard to imagine anyone doing a shittier job than W, who is perhaps the worst President ever.[/quote]

We've gone through this before...he's not all bad. (even posted 10 things that he has done well) I don't agree with everything he's done, but overall, he is certainly not a worse option than Gore / Kerry.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=jsarno;474093]We've gone through this before...he's not all bad. (even posted 10 things that he has done well) I don't agree with everything he's done, but overall, he is certainly not a worse option than Gore / Kerry.[/quote]

We'll never know for sure regarding Gore or Kerry, but what we do know is what a disaster W has been.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=Mattyk72;474095]We'll never know for sure regarding Gore or Kerry, but what we do know is what a disaster W has been.[/quote]

I disagree that it's a "disaster". I may regret asking this, but why do you think it's a "disaster"?

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=jsarno;474102]I disagree that it's a "disaster". I may regret asking this, but why do you think it's a "disaster"?[/quote]

Too many things to even bother getting in to. The last 8 years speak for itself. Considering his approval ratings have hit record lows I'm guessing alot of people would agree he's been a disaster.

How would you sum up the last 8 years? A success?

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=Mattyk72;474107]Too many things to even bother getting in to. The last 8 years speak for itself. Considering his approval ratings have hit record lows I'm guessing alot of people would agree he's been a disaster.

How would you sum up the last 8 years? A success?[/quote]

No, but the majority of people agreed to go to war, then pulled the rug out from under him. You also can't blame the rising gas prices solely on him, and those are the two major things people would point to for approval ratings. Also, the people would point to the deficit, yet everyone was more than happy to spend their refund check. So, no, I would not count any of those against his tenure.
Approval ratings mean nothing, and you know it. It's like Polls, they are useless.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=jsarno;474102]I disagree that it's a "disaster". I may regret asking this, but why do you think it's a "disaster"?[/quote]

You must be joking?

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=wilsowilso;474110]You must be joking?[/quote]

I by no means am saying it was a "success", but I think "disaster" is too harsh.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=jsarno;474112]I by no means am saying it was a "success", but I think "disaster" is too harsh.[/quote]

Ok so what would you call it then? A moderate failure? ;)

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

We can't and shouldn't judge him now, history will judge him! That is if historians can get their hands on all the [URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/07/AR2008090702260.html?hpid=moreheadlines"]records he burned and erased[/URL].

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=jsarno;474089]I did the same, and for the same reasons. I still have no doubt that Bush was the better option than Gore and Kerry. (IMO the worst two democratic candidates ever back to back.)[/quote]

Worse than Mondale and Dukakis?

I voted for Bush in 2000 because well he was a bit [url=http://politicalhumor.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=politicalhumor&cdn=entertainment&tm=5&gps=241_29_1276_582&f=10&tt=9&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml%3FvideoId%3D117373%26title%3Dbush-v.-bush]different[/url] then, and I understand significant events happened. I voted for him in 2004 because there was nothing compelling about Kerry in my opinion, and I believed (still do) another 4 years of Bush was better than potentially 8 years of Kerry.

Now? I like McCain (liked him in 2000 when he was still a candidate) and I want to vote for him. But I don't like the direction the Republican party is going in, a direction where the extreme right and its desire to "instill its values" on America is dictating the course of the party. I don't like that McCain seemingly felt forced to select Palin as his VP because the far right insisted upon it. It's not that I disagree with their beliefs necessarily, in many cases I agree, but who am I to say that you should too? And, in my case, what does it matter? I mean, look, I don't want to belittle gay marriage. But honestly, what do I care? What do many of us care? You're running for President, great, don't tell me about whether or not gays should be allowed to marry. I don't care what the party platform is on that. Tell me about things that matter to me, that matter to all of us-economy, foreign policy, health care, education. On these issues, I almost fully agree with the Republican party but increasingly it feels like those issues are afterhoughts when they are pushing their agenda. And it really disappoints me. To that end, a part of me strongly leans toward voting for Obama hoping that a significant setback for the GOP will better them down the line.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[QUOTE=saden1;474120]We can't and shouldn't judge him now, history will judge him! That is if historians can get their hands on all the [URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/07/AR2008090702260.html?hpid=moreheadlines"]records he burned and erased[/URL].[/QUOTE]

Doesn't Cheney and the VP office receive executive branch funding? :doh:

I feel like Bush/Cheney have made a mockery of America.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=SmootSmack;474168]Worse than Mondale and Dukakis?

I voted for Bush in 2000 because well he was a bit [url=http://politicalhumor.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=politicalhumor&cdn=entertainment&tm=5&gps=241_29_1276_582&f=10&tt=9&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml%3FvideoId%3D117373%26title%3Dbush-v.-bush]different[/url] then, and I understand significant events happened. I voted for him in 2004 because there was nothing compelling about Kerry in my opinion, and I believed (still do) another 4 years of Bush was better than potentially 8 years of Kerry.

Now? I like McCain (liked him in 2000 when he was still a candidate) and I want to vote for him. But I don't like the direction the Republican party is going in, a direction where the extreme right and its desire to "instill its values" on America is dictating the course of the party. I don't like that McCain seemingly felt forced to select Palin as his VP because the far right insisted upon it. It's not that I disagree with their beliefs necessarily, in many cases I agree, but who am I to say that you should too? And, in my case, what does it matter? I mean, look, I don't want to belittle gay marriage. But honestly, what do I care? What do many of us care? You're running for President, great, don't tell me about whether or not gays should be allowed to marry. I don't care what the party platform is on that. Tell me about things that matter to me, that matter to all of us-economy, foreign policy, health care, education. On these issues, I almost fully agree with the Republican party but increasingly it feels like those issues are afterhoughts when they are pushing their agenda. And it really disappoints me. To that end, a part of me strongly leans toward voting for Obama hoping that a significant setback for the GOP will better them down the line.[/quote]

Here here.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=SmootSmack;474168]Worse than Mondale and Dukakis?[/quote]

Short answer...yes.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=SmootSmack;474168]Worse than Mondale and Dukakis?

I voted for Bush in 2000 because well he was a bit [URL="http://politicalhumor.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=politicalhumor&cdn=entertainment&tm=5&gps=241_29_1276_582&f=10&tt=9&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml%3FvideoId%3D117373%26title%3Dbush-v.-bush"]different[/URL] then, and I understand significant events happened. I voted for him in 2004 because there was nothing compelling about Kerry in my opinion, and I believed (still do) another 4 years of Bush was better than potentially 8 years of Kerry.

Now? I like McCain (liked him in 2000 when he was still a candidate) and I want to vote for him. But I don't like the direction the Republican party is going in, a direction where the extreme right and its desire to "instill its values" on America is dictating the course of the party. I don't like that McCain seemingly felt forced to select Palin as his VP because the far right insisted upon it. It's not that I disagree with their beliefs necessarily, in many cases I agree, but who am I to say that you should too? And, in my case, what does it matter? I mean, look, I don't want to belittle gay marriage. But honestly, what do I care? What do many of us care? You're running for President, great, don't tell me about whether or not gays should be allowed to marry. I don't care what the party platform is on that. Tell me about things that matter to me, that matter to all of us-economy, foreign policy, health care, education. On these issues, I almost fully agree with the Republican party but increasingly it feels like those issues are afterhoughts when they are pushing their agenda. And it really disappoints me. To that end, a part of me strongly leans toward voting for Obama hoping that a significant setback for the GOP will better them down the line.[/quote]

Wow, great post. It's refreshing to hear a Repub look at the party for what it's become and not stand by them blindly just for the sake of sticking to party lines.

Honestly there was a day when I could have imagined myself possibly voting for McCain. It's really a shame to see how he's basically sold his soul to get where he is right now. He had a lot of potential 8 years ago.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

I'd like to believe that McCain sees this as his last chance (which of course it is) and that he is doing to whatever it takes to win and get in the White House. And once he gets there he will be the McCain he claims he is, not the one he's seemingly forced to be to get voted.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=SmootSmack;474168]Worse than Mondale and Dukakis?

I voted for Bush in 2000 because well he was a bit [URL="http://politicalhumor.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=politicalhumor&cdn=entertainment&tm=5&gps=241_29_1276_582&f=10&tt=9&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml%3FvideoId%3D117373%26title%3Dbush-v.-bush"]different[/URL] then, and I understand significant events happened. I voted for him in 2004 because there was nothing compelling about Kerry in my opinion, and I believed (still do) another 4 years of Bush was better than potentially 8 years of Kerry.

Now? I like McCain (liked him in 2000 when he was still a candidate) and I want to vote for him. But I don't like the direction the Republican party is going in, a direction where the extreme right and its desire to "instill its values" on America is dictating the course of the party. I don't like that McCain seemingly felt forced to select Palin as his VP because the far right insisted upon it. It's not that I disagree with their beliefs necessarily, in many cases I agree, but who am I to say that you should too? And, in my case, what does it matter? I mean, look, I don't want to belittle gay marriage. But honestly, what do I care? What do many of us care? You're running for President, great, don't tell me about whether or not gays should be allowed to marry. I don't care what the party platform is on that. Tell me about things that matter to me, that matter to all of us-economy, foreign policy, health care, education. On these issues, I almost fully agree with the Republican party but increasingly it feels like those issues are afterhoughts when they are pushing their agenda. And it really disappoints me. To that end, a part of me strongly leans toward voting for Obama hoping that a significant setback for the GOP will better them down the line.[/quote]

So was it at the RNC that you heard McCain and the Rep. speakers talking about gay marriage? Is it even part of their platform or just a perception that is given from the left. If I'm correct McCain has said in the past he feels its a state issue.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=Mattyk72;474235]Wow, great post. It's refreshing to hear a Repub look at the party for what it's become and not stand by them blindly just for the sake of sticking to party lines.

Honestly there was a day when I could have imagined myself possibly voting for McCain. It's really a shame to see how he's basically sold his soul to get where he is right now. He had a lot of potential 8 years ago.[/quote]

I just don't get what your saying he sold his soul. What issues is he pushing that are that much different then 8 years ago?

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=firstdown;474241]So was it at the RNC that you heard McCain and the Rep. speakers talking about gay marriage? Is it even part of their platform or just a perception that is given from the left. If I'm correct McCain has said in the past he feels its a state issue.[/quote]

Well, this is direct from the GOP platform

'Because our children’s future is best preserved within the traditional understanding of marriage, we call for a constitutional amendment that fully protects marriage as a union of a man and a woman, so that judges cannot make other arrangements equivalent to it. In the absence of a national amendment, we support the right of the people of the various states to
affirm traditional marriage through state initiatives."

And yes I realize that both McCain and Obama agree the issue should be decided by the states. My concern is with the party's overall position on it and, I believe, Sarah Palin's positions on issues such as those are what essentially pushed her onto the GOP ticket. But, and maybe I'm not just being clear about it, my beef isn't with McCain's position on the matter. What bothers me is that the party as a whole feels it's so important that it would basically threaten not to support McCain if he didn't appease them (apparently by selecting Palin)

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=firstdown;474244]I just don't get what your saying he sold his soul. What issues is he pushing that are that much different then 8 years ago?[/quote]
as recently as 2 weeks ago, John McCain had not uttered the word change, let alone used it for his platform. while i do agree the whole system is in dire need of one type of reform, or another, how can you just suddenly change your position, in mid election? he took what he thought the American people are clamouring for, and ran with it. smart move, but not legit. and lets talk about his voting record. he claims to be a maverick. got any proof? its easy to talk it. but walking it is a whole other story

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

he also was running on immigration change. but that was only until he got the nomination. has anyone heard him utter one word about it, since?

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

I can see the movie title "John McCain: The Undercover Maverick."

He's starting off with a lie and not being himself so he can get elected? How is anyone suppose derive comfort from that? That's Country First?

[yt]6eKwTL8SwbI[/yt]

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

I suppose it happens more often than not in politics though.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

I guess so.

RNC in a minute:
[yt]c-OSvqOSQU0[/yt]

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=SmootSmack;474258]Well, this is direct from the GOP platform

'Because our children’s future is best preserved within the traditional understanding of marriage, we call for a constitutional amendment that fully protects marriage as a union of a man and a woman, so that judges cannot make other arrangements equivalent to it. In the absence of a national amendment, we support the right of the people of the various states to
affirm traditional marriage through state initiatives."

And yes I realize that both McCain and Obama agree the issue should be decided by the states. My concern is with the party's overall position on it and, I believe, Sarah Palin's positions on issues such as those are what essentially pushed her onto the GOP ticket. But, and maybe I'm not just being clear about it, my beef isn't with McCain's position on the matter. What bothers me is that the party as a whole feels it's so important that it would basically threaten not to support McCain if he didn't appease them (apparently by selecting Palin)[/quote]
Like I said he says its a state issue. The party as a whole has never said they would not back McCain because of his matter on this issue its the far right that had issues which is not the entire Rep party. Its just like the far left mad at Obama for now saying it will take 16 months to withdraw from Iraq and they have protested against him.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=dmek25;474284]as recently as 2 weeks ago, John McCain had not uttered the word change, let alone used it for his platform. while i do agree the whole system is in dire need of one type of reform, or another, how can you just suddenly change your position, in mid election? he took what he thought the American people are clamouring for, and ran with it. smart move, but not legit. and lets talk about his voting record. he claims to be a maverick. got any proof? its easy to talk it. but walking it is a whole other story[/quote]
His use of the word change is in the same context of what he has been saying all along and not a change in what he has been sayin he will do as president.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=firstdown;474305]Like I said he says its a state issue. The party as a whole has never said they would not back McCain because of his matter on this issue its the far right that had issues which is not the entire Rep party. Its just like the far left mad at Obama for now saying it will take 16 months to withdraw from Iraq and they have protested against him.[/quote]

My feeling is that the far right is a lot more influential on its party than the far left

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=SmootSmack;474313]My feeling is that the far right is a lot more influential on its party than the far left[/quote]

I would completely disagree. I agree the far right influence has been a disaster for the Repubs but I think the far lefts influence is so ingrained and institutionalized that it no longer even appears as influence. It actually is the party. It has been going on since the 60's. The Repubs are catching up quick though.

The 25% of this country that would identify themselves as democrats but not in the context of their super liberal party get left out in the cold the same way the 25% of Repubs do.

Our country seems to align basically like this.

15 25 20 25 15

left to right.

the problem in both parties is that the 15 percenters run the show.

the 25 percenters are stuck voting for blobs like Kerry/GW because they can't support someone so opposed to their fundamental beliefs.

and the middle 20 percenters vote the guy they like the best regardless of politics.

we need to bust up the two party system something fierce. it is killing us.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

But doesn't seem like as the election has proceeded, both candidates have shifted toward the right of their originally stated positions? Implying that the far right is more influential.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=wilsowilso;474031]I honestly don't know how anyone who voted for George Bush twice can actually look at themselves in the mirror and say "I voted for a better America." What a disaster. It's not just my opinion. The man has the lowest approval rating of any President.
Ever. Well done. Go Palin.[/quote]


It is true that Bush has the "lowest approval rating ever". However:


1. Presidential Approval Rating Polls were not taken until the mid to late 1930s, which means you're leaving out some really bad Presidents.

2. While Bush's 19% number from American Research Group is the "lowest approval rating ever, the average of his numbers in any given week are unlikely to be lower than Harry Truman's 22% number from 1952 when only one organization (Gallup) was doing the polling. George W. Bush has never been lower than 28% in the Gallup poll. Furthermore the American Research Group's numbers for Bush are consistently lower than everyone else's. If you go to their [URL="http://americanresearchgroup.com/"]website[/URL] and look at their numbers, they're all over the place month to month which should cause some concerns as to their methodology. For instance, last month Bush was at 21% in their poll and this month he is at 30%.

3. By following the "lowest approval rating ever" logic, it should be pointed out that Bush also has the "highest approval rating ever" of 92% after 9/11, and Bush's average number throughout his two terms is 50% in the Gallup poll.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=FRPLG;474317]I would completely disagree. I agree the far right influence has been a disaster for the Repubs but I think the far lefts influence is so ingrained and institutionalized that it no longer even appears as influence. It actually is the party. It has been going on since the 60's. The Repubs are catching up quick though.

The 25% of this country that would identify themselves as democrats but not in the context of their super liberal party get left out in the cold the same way the 25% of Repubs do.

Our country seems to align basically like this.

15 25 20 25 15

left to right.

the problem in both parties is that the 15 percenters run the show.

the 25 percenters are stuck voting for blobs like Kerry/GW because they can't support someone so opposed to their fundamental beliefs.

and the middle 20 percenters vote the guy they like the best regardless of politics.

we need to bust up the two party system something fierce. it is killing us.[/quote]


I think the country shakes out this way:

99.99999% Usually Wrong or "Everyone Else" vs.

.00001% Always Right or "Me"

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=70Chip;474333]It is true that Bush has the "lowest approval rating ever". However:


1. Presidential Approval Rating Polls were not taken until the mid to late 1930s, which means you're leaving out some really bad Presidents.

2. While Bush's 19% number from American Research Group is the "lowest approval rating ever, the average of his numbers in any given week are unlikely to be lower than Harry Truman's 22% number from 1952 when only one organization (Gallup) was doing the polling. George W. Bush has never been lower than 28% in the Gallup poll. Furthermore the American Research Group's numbers for Bush are consistently lower than everyone else's. If you go to their [URL="http://americanresearchgroup.com/"]website[/URL] and look at their numbers, they're all over the place month to month which should cause some concerns as to their methodology. For instance, last month Bush was at 21% in their poll and this month he is at 30%.

3. By following the "lowest approval rating ever" logic, it should be pointed out that Bush also has the "highest approval rating ever" of 92% after 9/11, and Bush's average number throughout his two terms is 50% in the Gallup poll.[/quote]

All good points