Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=skinsfan69;561264]I don't even pay attention to the cap anymore. It's almost useless. For the most part we sign anyone we want and never go into cap hell.[/quote]In many ways though, we [B]have been[/B] in cap hell for the last three years. The veteran purge in 2006 that Peter King spoke of never, ever came to reality, but that doesn't mean the cap hasn't helped shape our refocus on the draft.

It seems though, that the cap affects the Redskins much more subtlety than anyone would have thought. The cap this year ultimately didn't prevent us from getting Haynesworth, chasing Cutler, or releasing Jansen, but we went almost exclusively defense in the draft because we created a majority of our cap room by parting ways with Springs, Washington, Evans, and Taylor, and at least three of those players would still be on the team if 2009 were uncapped.

It's also led to poor planning. If I told you we could keep Washington simply by keeping Jansen, you'd obviously take that. But we released Washington figuring we'd need that cap room in some way. Turns out, we didn't need it, so we used it to eat Jansen's cap hit. So now, we're down two veterans: one half cap casulty half personnel decision, and one personnel decision. We probably would have been better off with Marcus though.

Plus, we haven't been able to offer market value extensions to young talent on our roster like McIntosh and Rogers because of cap constraints, not to mention that Montgomery could have easily gotten away if another team had been daring enough to offer him a competitive contract. We would have gotten a 5th rounder in compensation for a 25 year old nose.

The thing is, if we continue to draft will, the salary cap is not designed to prevent us from competing. If we draft poorly, the free agency structure isn't sufficient to save us from the bottom of the barrel. It's just life in the NFL; our hand is often forced by cap constraints. Just not so overtly.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=GMScud;561267]Not to quote my self, but....

We restructure a 30 year old with a new deal that will run until he's into his mid-30's, and I suspect a year or two before said deal is up we'll probably be talking about whether or not we should cut him (especially if Thomas and Kelly come around), he's lost a step, etc etc etc.

Although I guess if we don't have a salary cap moving forward it won't matter.[/quote]To the Redskins credit, they do budget a part of their cap every year to deadcap in order to remain competitive. I deem this the CrazyCanuck Principle in honor of the man who first observed this trend.

Recently, the Redskins have been really, really obvious about this. Starting with Brunell, and adding in Moss, Griffin, Carter, and Randle El, the Redskins have been writing automatic voids into contracts, essentially picking a date at which the deadcap will accelerate. So it's a calculated approach to wasted cap space, if that makes sense.

It's like saying, "yeah, we're going to waste a bunch of cap space on players not on our roster, but we're going to go about it responsibly, goddamn it!"

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=GTripp0012;561270][B]To the Redskins credit, they do budget a part of their cap every year to deadcap in order to remain competitive. [/B] I deem this the CrazyCanuck Principle in honor of the man who first observed this trend.

Recently, the Redskins have been really, really obvious about this. Starting with Brunell, and adding in Moss, Griffin, Carter, and Randle El, the Redskins have been writing automatic voids into contracts, essentially picking a date at which the deadcap will accelerate.[B] So it's a calculated approach to wasted cap space, if that makes sense.[/B]
[B]
It's like saying, "yeah, we're going to waste a bunch of cap space on players not on our roster, but we're going to go about it responsibly, goddamn it!"[/B][/quote]

Yeah, I can live with it. It just kind of makes me shake my head and sort of sarcastically laugh every time I see it happen. Like I said, it's what we do. Then again, we could just stop putting ourselves in situations like this and we wouldn't have to piss away a chunk of our cap on guys not on the roster year in and year out.

You say we portion out X amount of space each year for deadcap in order to remain competitive. Gotta wonder how much more competitive we'd be if X amount of deadcap space actually went to a player(s) of that worth....

"So it's a calculated approach to wasted cap space, if that makes sense." That's got signature written all over it.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=GMScud;561271]Yeah, I can live with it. It just kind of makes me shake my head and sort of sarcastically laugh every time I see it happen. Like I said, it's what we do.
Then again, we could just stop putting ourselves in situations like this and we wouldn't have to piss away a chunk of our cap on guys not on the roster year in and year out.

You say we portion out X amount of space each year for deadcap in order to remain competitive. Gotta wonder how much more competitive we'd be if X amount of deadcap space actually went to a player of that worth....

"So it's a calculated approach to wasted cap space, if that makes sense." That's got signature written all over it.[/quote]I think a lot of the media is going to be eating their words when the Redskins are 5-2 and offering $70 million to Jason Campbell by Halloween, in that, it will look like the Redskins bought their way to unsustainable success. But that's only part of the story.

The Redskins have a remarkably team-friendly contract with the best defensive player in football, with only one caveat: the Haynesworth contract comes with a [B]simply unfathomable amount of risk[/B] to the team. As of right now, before any restructure, the amount of money the Redskins can go after should Haynesworth get himself suspended is a whopping: not one dime.

Out of the $41 million guarenteed figure, or otherwise put, the combined total of money owed to Albert Haynesworth for his first three seasons here, not one cent is paid out in a signing bonus, or a non-guarenteed salary. About $22 million of that is subject to be restructured next offseason, which would give the team the ability to reclaim that if Haynesworth does something stupid. But Haynesworth will stay a Redskin through 2011 no matter how many games he's actually healthy enough to play.

But in exchange for that risk, the Redskins get the best defensive player in football at relatively cap-friendly prices for the remainder of the prime of his career. Taking the risk was necessary to get Haynesworth in with a reasonable cap number, but ultimately, this gamble will be the reason the team will win in the near future.

There's no other team in football who would have taken a risk like that. Any argument for Snyder being a great owner has to start with the Haynesworth contract.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=GMScud;561271]Yeah, I can live with it. It just kind of makes me shake my head and sort of sarcastically laugh every time I see it happen. Like I said, it's what we do. Then again, we could just stop putting ourselves in situations like this and we wouldn't have to piss away a chunk of our cap on guys not on the roster year in and year out.

[B]You say we portion out X amount of space each year for deadcap in order to remain competitive. Gotta wonder how much more competitive we'd be if X amount of deadcap space actually went to a player(s) of that worth....[/B]

"So it's a calculated approach to wasted cap space, if that makes sense." That's got signature written all over it.[/quote]
We would probably be the same because we are always pushing money into future years which evens out the deadcap. So we get to spend money that we don't even have yet basically. Since the cap goes up every year we can sustain this as long as we don't go too crazy with it.

We cut somebody which accelerates the cap hit, but then we extend or restructure somebody else. So on this, from a cap perspective, we took money from Moss this year to give to Jansen, but then we gave the money that was owed to Jansen later to Moss.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=GTripp0012;561272]I think a lot of the media is going to be eating their words when the Redskins are 5-2 and offering $70 million to Jason Campbell by Halloween, in that, it will look like the Redskins bought their way to unsustainable success. But that's only part of the story.

The Redskins have a remarkably team-friendly contract with the best defensive player in football, with only one caveat: the Haynesworth contract comes with a [B]simply unfathomable amount of risk[/B] to the team. As of right now, before any restructure, the amount of money the Redskins can go after should Haynesworth get himself suspended is a whopping: not one dime.

Out of the $41 million guarenteed figure, or otherwise put, the combined total of money owed to Albert Haynesworth for his first three seasons here, not one cent is paid out in a signing bonus, or a non-guarenteed salary. About $22 million of that is subject to be restructured next offseason, which would give the team the ability to reclaim that if Haynesworth does something stupid. But Haynesworth will stay a Redskin through 2011 no matter how many games he's actually healthy enough to play.

But in exchange for that risk, the Redskins get the best defensive player in football at relatively cap-friendly prices for the remainder of the prime of his career. Taking the risk was necessary to get Haynesworth in with a reasonable cap number, but ultimately, this gamble will be the reason the team will win in the near future.
[B]
There's no other team in football who would have taken a risk like that. Any argument for Snyder being a great owner has to start with the Haynesworth contract.[/B][/quote]

I don't think Haynesworth will get suspended for any reason in the near future, so I'd have to agree. Of course if it goes in the other direction, any argument for Snyder being a terrible owner will be highlighted by the Haynesworth contract. However I don't see that happening.

And I hope you're right about Campbell. I feel that way about it as well. I think he has a very nice year upcoming.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=steveo395;561278]We would probably be the same because we are always pushing money into future years which evens out the deadcap. So we get to spend money that we don't even have yet basically. Since the cap goes up every year we can sustain this as long as we don't go too crazy with it.

We cut somebody which accelerates the cap hit, but then we extend or restructure somebody else. So on this, from a cap perspective, we took money from Moss this year to give to Jansen, but then we gave the money that was owed to Jansen later to Moss.[/quote]

I get what you're saying, but pushing money into future years doesn't really even out the deadcap. It actually creates bigger deadcap numbers down the road. It's kind of a version of short term thinking. It's almost like we've accepted the fact that every season there will be a player or two whose contract(s) we've blundered so badly that we have no choice but do this kind of stuff.

Sure the Moss restructuring evens out the Jansen thing for 2009, but what does "even" mean? If by even you mean on par with what we always do, then sure. All it really does is rectify Jansen's cap hit for 2009 by creating another Jansen-like situation for Santana in 2011 or 2012. And around and around we go.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=GMScud;561353]I get what you're saying, but pushing money into future years doesn't really even out the deadcap. It actually creates bigger deadcap numbers down the road. It's kind of a version of short term thinking. It's almost like we've accepted the fact that every season there will be a player or two who's contract(s) we've blundered so badly that we have no choice but do this kind of stuff.

Sure the Moss restructuring evens out the Jansen thing for 2009, but what does "even" mean? If by even you mean on par with what we always do, then sure. All it really does is rectify Jansen's cap hit for 2009 by creating another Jansen-like situation for Santana in 2011 or 2012. And around and around we go.[/quote]
Well hopefully next year will be uncapped and we can somehow push all kinds of money into that year, so we won't have to do this anymore.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=CrazyCanuck;560669]After Jansen's release and most of the signings (not including draft picks) I have us at $2.071M of cap room.

The draft picks are already accounted for in the cap with the rookie pool, and the remaining signings will likely all be at the league min so they won't affect the cap situation cuz of the rule of 51.[/quote]

Does this include the Moss's restructure we keep hearing about lately?

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

Some really good comments here, thanks CC, Schneed & GT.

Does anyone remember when all this restructuring started? The reason I ask is that it seems it really became a hallmark of Gibbs' tenure. He valued veterans & wanted to keep those guys on the roster when other teams might've just cut them.

So, since Gibbs has been gone are we likely to see less restructures pushing bonuses forward?
Of course there have been restructures since Gibbs left, but assuming the cap remains in a new cba, I'm thinking that gradually vinny will build through the draft & try to substantially reduce restructuring deals that push cap space to the future.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

^ Don't blame Gibbs. He had to learn about restructuring. I think it's just DS learning new ways to get around the CAP. Will it hurt us....everyone and all of us say yes but every yr we seem to get out of CAP hell.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=GMScud;561353]I get what you're saying, but pushing money into future years doesn't really even out the deadcap. It actually creates bigger deadcap numbers down the road. It's kind of a version of short term thinking. [B]It's almost like we've accepted the fact that every season there will be a player or two whose contract(s) we've blundered so badly[/B] that we have no choice but do this kind of stuff.

Sure the Moss restructuring evens out the Jansen thing for 2009, but what does "even" mean? If by even you mean on par with what we always do, then sure. All it really does is rectify Jansen's cap hit for 2009 by creating another Jansen-like situation for Santana in 2011 or 2012. And around and around we go.[/quote]

See I look at it more along these lines. The Skins pay top dollar in the players prime years, the players get very good money for the years they play. Good for both sides

Using Jansen and Santana as an example, Jansen was paid at his peak, and deserved a top dollar contract, the contract length was written so the team could pay him what they felt he was worth. I think that is praiseworthy. Santana is still a solid player, and we now give him his money that we feel he is worth, and extend it to make room for the salary cap hit from paying Jansen at his time. I don't think that is short-sighted, I think it is maximizing the full flexibility of the cap. Sure some teams have 36million + in cap room, but when the season starts, barring major catastrophe, that is just available resources poorly used.

I don't remember much about the college class anymore, (still all math is useful), but one of the basic econ principles is maximizing resources for the best value, I think the Skins FO at this point does that as well as any team. (How many people before FA started felt we would have AH, DD, DH, cut Jansen, HS, and still have cap room for emergencies/additional pickups?).

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;561531]See I look at it more along these lines. The Skins pay top dollar in the players prime years, the players get very good money for the years they play. Good for both sides

Using Jansen and Santana as an example, Jansen was paid at his peak, and deserved a top dollar contract, the contract length was written so the team could pay him what they felt he was worth. I think that is praiseworthy. Santana is still a solid player, and we now give him his money that we feel he is worth, and extend it to make room for the salary cap hit from paying Jansen at his time. I don't think that is short-sighted, I think it is maximizing the full flexibility of the cap. Sure some teams have 36million + in cap room, but when the season starts, barring major catastrophe, that is just available resources poorly used.

I don't remember much about the college class anymore, (still all math is useful), but one of the basic econ principles is maximizing resources for the best value, I think the Skins FO at this point does that as well as any team. (How many people before FA started felt we would have AH, DD, DH, cut Jansen, HS, and still have cap room for emergencies/additional pickups?).[/quote]

Not a bad way to look at it. I'm obviously gald we use every bit of cap space and don't sit way under like some teams. Nowhere did I suggest we should be way under the cap.

Two seasons ago we gave Jansen a 5 year, $22M extension, and then restructured it, and that's why at 33 years old, we were left with a crappy decision to make as far as cap dollars go with Big Jon. My point was we've now given Moss a contract that will most likely put us in the same situation with him as we just had with Jansen a few years down the road.

You say we're maximizing the full flexibility of the cap. I disagree. I think given the circumstances we're doing what we have to do to make space. I think maximizing the cap would be avoiding all these dead cap hits year in and year out and using that money on players. I'm interested in using the cap to maximize the quality of our roster.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=GMScud;561542]Not a bad way to look at it. I'm obviously gald we use every bit of cap space and don't sit way under like some teams. Nowhere did I suggest we should be way under the cap.

Two seasons ago we gave Jansen a 5 year, $22M extension, and then restructured it, and that's why at 33 years old, we were left with a crappy decision to make as far as cap dollars go with Big Jon. My point was we've now given Moss a contract that will most likely put us in the same situation with him as we just had with Jansen a few years down the road.

You say we're maximizing the full flexibility of the cap. I disagree. I think given the circumstances we're doing what we have to do to make space. I think maximizing the cap would be avoiding all these dead cap hits year in and year out and using that money on players. I'm interested in using the cap to maximize the quality of our roster.[/quote]
What I don't understand, and I admit I just don't know the math in and out, is how can you use every bit of cap space on current players? Is that what you are saying should happen, or that the dead cap number is simply too high. I know Dallas has a high dead cap number, I would be curious what the league average is, and I am sure its out there if I were more diligent.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;561572]What I don't understand, and I admit I just don't know the math in and out, is how can you use every bit of cap space on current players? Is that what you are saying should happen, or that the dead cap number is simply too high. I know Dallas has a high dead cap number, I would be curious what the league average is, and I am sure its out there if I were more diligent.[/quote]

Yeah, I don't know the math in and out either. I'm sure most teams aren't using all of their cap space on players who make the 53 man. A times a dead cap hit here and there is inevitable. But as Crazy Canuck points out [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/salary-cap-central/27715-current-redskins-salary-cap-status-2009-a-2.html#post560673"]here[/URL], prior to the Moss restructure/extension, 14% of our salary cap was dead cap space. Again, I don't know the numbers on all the teams, but I'm sure 14% is a pretty big number comparatively.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

When the gurus have time can we can an uptodate number on the cap...post the JT release which I'm pretty sure helps us quite a bit.

Thank you!

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

Cutting Thrash will save us $845K this year. He was due to earn $945K, and we take a $100K dead cap hit for releasing him.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

Any word on Orakpo and Barnes negotiations/signings? What about the UK DE we just picked up? I haven't heard much in terms of signings period, but I assume they will be starting to pick up over the next week.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

Extreme Skins has a blog that Barns was signed. News came from the twitter.

[url=http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=292112]Redskins Blog: Kevin Barnes Signed (via Twitter) - EXTREMESKINS.com[/url]

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

Yep, it's on the Skins front page now
[url=http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/Redskins_Sign_Barnes_to_Rookie_Deal_43811.jsp]Redskins Sign Barnes to Rookie Deal[/url]

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

Good to hear this, I hope they can sign Orakpo (and everyone else that needs to be signed) soon so all that is taken care off once camp starts.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=Ruhskins;569517]Good to hear this, I hope they can sign Orakpo (and everyone else that needs to be signed) soon so all that is taken care off once camp starts.[/quote]

Orakpo and Jarmon are the only ones left. BO should be an eay sign. Slot him and go. Jarmon...I have no idea how you figure out how to value a Sup Draftee. I guess slot him as a 3rd rounder from this year?

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

anyone know the terms of the orakpo deal?

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

Yeah seems like a really good time to recalculate the salary cap

hintidy hint hint :)

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=los panda;571553]anyone know the terms of the orakpo deal?[/quote]

beyond what's posted in the thread title of the deal about him signing?

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

It says 5 years 20 mil 12.1 guaranteed

[url=http://myespn.go.com/blogs/nflnation/0-9-192/Signing-status-of--09-first-round-draft-picks.html]Signing status of '09 first-round draft picks - NFL Nation - ESPN[/url]

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

This isn't really the time of year to worry about calculating salary cap impact on a daily basis, hence the reason it hasn't been updated.

We keep up with it in March because the available cap space dictates the options available to the team when it comes to signing free agents.

But now, since nothing but minimum salary bums are available in free agency, players who would be marginally helpful at best if signed, all we need to know is that the Redskins are under the cap this year. And yes, they are.

Come the offseason next year CC and I will get religious about monitoring the cap situation. So basically, you're on a need to know basis. And right now, you don't need to know.

:)

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=SmootSmack;571579]beyond what's posted in the thread title of the deal about him signing?[/quote]just what his hit will be this year

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=los panda;571750]just what his hit will be this year[/quote]

We don't know the exact specifics of the contract, but it appears to be about $2.8 million or so.

Fits in our rookie pool and under our cap. Given that we're done adding players, and that training camp is here, it's now pointless to worry about the 2009 cap.

The next update CC does will give us a good glimpse at preliminary 2010, if there is a cap at all.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=Schneed10;571771]The next update CC does will give us a good glimpse at preliminary 2010, if there is a cap at all.[/quote]

Will try to get an update up this week...

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

Just did an update.

- I have Orakpo's salary info but no bonus info yet.
- Haven't entered Santana's restructure yet.

Right now I have us at $4.887M of cap room.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=CrazyCanuck;573120]Just did an update.

- I have Orakpo's salary info but no bonus info yet.
- Haven't entered Santana's restructure yet.

Right now I have us at $4.887M of cap room.[/quote]

Nice, TY, CC. I heard Orakpo's bonus was $12.1M over 5 years. Not sure how it's staged though.

To be conservative, if we assume it's all paid up front right now, then the hit from it comes to $2.2 million.

So your $4.9 minus the $2.2 means we'd have $2.7 left over. At least.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=Schneed10;573121]Nice, TY, CC. I heard Orakpo's bonus was $12.1M over 5 years. Not sure how it's staged though.

To be conservative, if we assume it's all paid up front right now, then the hit from it comes to $2.2 million.

So your $4.9 minus the $2.2 means we'd have $2.7 left over. At least.[/quote]

Hey Schneedster...

Yes what you say makes sense. Also I think Moss's cap hit is higher than what I have on my sheets so that will cut even more into our cap room.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

Uh, ok. U guys have a specific number in mind? or is there sort of a consensus out there about our cap room?

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=The Goat;573161]Uh, ok. U guys have a specific number in mind? or is there sort of a consensus out there about our cap room?[/quote]

It's impossible to have a good consensus until the details of the contract/s in question are known.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

do we really care about the cap anymore? it seems like anyone the redskins want, they get.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

Well, Levi would take some finagling (thank God for spell check :) )
so it has a little relevance for us who hope for a true OL upgrade at this point.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

Now since we have the 53 man roster set, can you guys please update the salary cap status of the team?? Thanks in advance!

Would like to know incase we get an opportunity at a quality player if we have enough room to make a good run at them.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

Just did an update...

- I have Orakpo's salary info but no bonus info yet.
- Haven't entered Santana's restructure yet.

I have us $1.794M of cap room.

Re: Current Redskins Salary Cap Status - 2009
 

[quote=CrazyCanuck;585487]Just did an update...

- I have Orakpo's salary info but no bonus info yet.
- Haven't entered Santana's restructure yet.

I have us $1.794M of cap room.[/quote]

Thank you very much for the help with this. Perhaps this explains why we didn't make a move on Pashos or Levi Jones.