Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=FRPLG;569169]Exactly where did ANYONE insult you? Your reaction to someone not agreeing with you is that they are insulting you? I think you should heed some of the sentiments you yourself have already written because the only one here who is "assuming" what others are thinking is you.[/quote]

Here are a couple of instances where you insulted me:

[quote=FRPLG;568915]Not to put it too harshly but [your ideas are] a load of crap.[/quote]

An opinion would be, "I *think* your ideas are a load of crap." Here you present it as fact. Semantics, I guess.

[quote=FRPLG;569047]Pretty much [you are doomed/dysfunctional]. Instead of some fairyland fantasy utopia you should consider taking a long hard look at the real world. Seems like everyone else in this thread at least a has firm grasp on reality.[/quote]

Here you suggest that my ideas are worthless, because you imply it is impossible to apply them to the "real" world, as you see it. Opinions are subjective. Possibility and Impossibility are not. Here you are presenting your opinion as fact again. Semantics, I guess.

You also agree with my sarcastic response that I am dysfunctional, although not in a sarcastic way. You say that I don't have a firm grasp on reality. I suppose this is your opinion, but opinions can be insulting if worded improperly. Do you not think it is insulting to basically say somebody is a crazy lunatic? Because that is how I read your responses.

You're basically saying bad things about me, and hiding behind the defense of opinion. As if an opinion could never be insulting, or if a person is insulted by an opinion there must be something wrong with them.

If I insulted somebody, and they brought it to my attention, I would apologize -- because it is usually not my intention to insult people. So, I apologize if I ever insulted you. Anyways, I'm not looking for an apology. I just wanted to point out that your responses could be construed as insulting, and that I didn't start the flame war.

Of course, this is all just my opinion.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;569114]That was a rhetorical question genius. You know, to highlight the cost of what he is suggesting and to see how it compares to actually providing a universal heal care plan with a public option. And you wonder why I ignore you.[/quote]

The problem as I see it is that you cannot have UHC and a private plan together and have it work. The problem is that under the UHC they will have to take in all the sick and uninsured people and it will drive up the cost. The healthy people will stay on their private plan which will be cheaper. See the results of Mass. and thats is a fine example of trying to mix the two.I know this and I'm sure Obama knows this so he starts with the 45 million and next thing we know to fix the entire problem they then push UHC.

Re: Obama Care
 

It's not gonna pass the way he wants it to. We'll see how his administration deals with it's first major gut check. His own party is divided over the issue, he's using scare tactics, and he's cutting deals in private with hospitals and pharmaceutical companies (something he said would be done not privately but on C-SPAN during the campaign). He said the Republicans "want to delay action so the special interests can kill it," all the while wheeling and dealing with certain special interests who can butter his bread.

[url=http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/67b99268-7633-11de-9e59-00144feabdc0.html?nclick_check=1]FT.com / US / Politics & Foreign policy - Obama hits at healthcare ‘scare’ tactics[/url]
[url=http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D99J4SS80&show_article=1]PROMISES, PROMISES: Do Obama deals break pledge?[/url]
[url=http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D99IV05G2&show_article=1]Senior Democrat says no consensus on health bill[/url]
[url=http://www.ajc.com/health/democrats-divided-on-health-96628.html]Democrats divided on health care overhaul*| ajc.com[/url]

Blah. Typical politics. Crap.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;569110]I don't ignore you, I'm just not that into you and your rants. Enjoy [URL="http://zfacts.com/p/318.html"]this chart[/URL] and I hope you learn something (Note: anything above the Obama line is all on Obama):

[IMG]http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP.gif[/IMG][/quote]
They forgot to label/red line FDR.

Re: Obama Care
 

[URL="http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/22/doctors-wage-war-obamas-health-care-overhaul/"]Doctors Wage War Against Obama's Health Care Overhaul - Political News - FOXNews.com[/URL]

We've debated a lot about proposals and who pays, etc. etc. But here are two points that are definitely not good for us as patients:

1) This is war," Dr. George Watson, a Kansas physician and president-elect of the American Association of Physicians and Surgeons, told FOXNews.com Thursday. "This is a bureaucratic boondoggle to grab control of health care. Everything that has been proposed in the 1,018 page bill will contribute to the ruination of medicine."
Watson said the president's reform bill is loaded with rules and regulations that will ultimately result in shoddy patient care and long waiting lines. He blasted the bill as "insidious" by forcing doctors contracted with Medicare into the nationalized plan -- a "trap" he described as "involuntary servitude."

This doc is obviously pretty pissed-off as are many others. When I'm knocked out and the guy with a knife getting ready to dig around inside me is pissed-off at the new system of government run health care, that's not a real comfortable feeling for me

2) "Opponents of the bill also charge that it will deter prospective doctors from pursuing a medical degree -- adding to preexisting concerns over the current number of doctors."

There's a shortage of doctors in Canada already (which proponents of Obama's plan attribute to other factors). My question is, why would a bright kid sacrifice the time, money, energy to make it through med school, internships, etc., etc. to have the gov't dictate what he/she can make and still have the risk of a malpractice suit effectively ending his/her career. Answer: the best and brightest will find something else to do.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;569334][URL="http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/22/doctors-wage-war-obamas-health-care-overhaul/"]Doctors Wage War Against Obama's Health Care Overhaul - Political News - FOXNews.com[/URL]

We've debated a lot about proposals and who pays, etc. etc. But here are two points that are definitely not good for us as patients:

1) This is war," Dr. George Watson, a Kansas physician and president-elect of the American Association of Physicians and Surgeons, told FOXNews.com Thursday. "This is a bureaucratic boondoggle to grab control of health care. Everything that has been proposed in the 1,018 page bill will contribute to the ruination of medicine."
Watson said the president's reform bill is loaded with rules and regulations that will ultimately result in shoddy patient care and long waiting lines. He blasted the bill as "insidious" by forcing doctors contracted with Medicare into the nationalized plan -- a "trap" he described as "involuntary servitude."

This doc is obviously pretty pissed-off as are many others. When I'm knocked out and the guy with a knife getting ready to dig around inside me is pissed-off at the new system of government run health care, that's not a real comfortable feeling for me

2) "Opponents of the bill also charge that it will deter prospective doctors from pursuing a medical degree -- adding to preexisting concerns over the current number of doctors."

[B]There's a shortage of doctors in Canada already (which proponents of Obama's plan attribute to other factors). My question is, why would a bright kid sacrifice the time, money, energy to make it through med school, internships, etc., etc. to have the gov't dictate what he/she can make and still have the risk of a malpractice suit effectively ending his/her career. Answer: the best and brightest will find something else to do.[/B][/quote]

This is a great point. Also, consider the amount of debt so many med students incur just to get through school in the first place. The risk side of the risk/reward for becoming a doctor could go way up.

Re: Obama Care
 

^ what a load of fear mongering crap.

Re: Obama Care
 

I just wonder if we could set up a Medical Academy, along the lines of the military academies. Seems like at the least that would be in the national interest. I know there are tons of institutions already, but if we could establish one where students went and basically accepted an obligatory national service period after, like the military requirements, maybe we could do something good.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;569337]^ what a load of fear mongering crap.[/quote]

Kind of like this??

[I]Mr Obama told NBC on Tuesday: “Doing nothing means that you’re going to lose what you have . . . Because on the current trajectory, your premiums are going to double again over the next five to 10 years.”[/I]

Re: Obama Care
 

I like that idea.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GMScud;569341]Kind of like this??

[I]Mr Obama told NBC on Tuesday: “Doing nothing means that you’re going to lose what you have . . . Because on the current trajectory, your premiums are going to double again over the next five to 10 years.”[/I][/quote]

that too. Need some tall boots.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;569343]I like that idea.[/quote]

And, like Saden always says, I would be willing to pay more taxes for it, maybe greed hasn't eaten through to my very core yet ;)

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;569337]^ what a load of fear mongering crap.[/quote]
I guess the NY Times, Washington Post, USA Today, BBC, and Canadian Med Assoc are putting out "fear mongering crap" too.

[URL]http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/health/policy/27care.html[/URL]

[URL="http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-02-26-doctor-shortage_N.htm"]Shortage of surgeons pinches U.S. hospitals - USATODAY.com[/URL]

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/19/AR2009061903583.html"]Primary-Care Doctor Shortage May Undermine Health Reform Efforts - washingtonpost.com[/URL]

[URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/3969529.stm"]BBC NEWS | UK | Scotland | Hospitals 'face doctor shortage'[/URL]

[URL="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-471824/Junior-doctor-shortage-causes-cancelled-operations.html"]Junior doctor shortage causes cancelled operations | Mail Online[/URL]

[URL="http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2006/08/28/doctor-shortage.html"]Canada's doctor shortage to worsen without changes: Fraser report[/URL]

[URL="http://www.moredoctors.ca/learn_more/"]CMA - Asks[/URL]

We're already beginning to experience a doctor shortage in the U.S. because of cost of schooling, spiraling malpractice insurance(because Congress won't pass caps on malpractice awards), and government rules/regs/payment limits for primary care docs. But I'm sure my point is completely wrong and everything will work out fine....just trust Premier Obama and the Politburo.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;569350]I guess the NY Times, Washington Post, USA Today, BBC, and Canadian Med Assoc are putting out "fear mongering crap" too.

[URL]http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/health/policy/27care.html[/URL]

[URL="http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-02-26-doctor-shortage_N.htm"]Shortage of surgeons pinches U.S. hospitals - USATODAY.com[/URL]

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/19/AR2009061903583.html"]Primary-Care Doctor Shortage May Undermine Health Reform Efforts - washingtonpost.com[/URL]

[URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/3969529.stm"]BBC NEWS | UK | Scotland | Hospitals 'face doctor shortage'[/URL]

[URL="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-471824/Junior-doctor-shortage-causes-cancelled-operations.html"]Junior doctor shortage causes cancelled operations | Mail Online[/URL]

[URL="http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2006/08/28/doctor-shortage.html"]Canada's doctor shortage to worsen without changes: Fraser report[/URL]

[URL="http://www.moredoctors.ca/learn_more/"]CMA - Asks[/URL]

We're already beginning to experience a doctor shortage in the U.S. because of cost of schooling, spiraling malpractice insurance(because Congress won't pass caps on malpractice awards), and government rules/regs/payment limits for primary care docs. But I'm sure my point is completely wrong and everything will work out fine....just trust Premier Obama and the Politburo.[/quote]

Riiiight but the fear mongering is the focus on how if we change from our current system, the sky will fall, there will be no doctors, blah blah blah. Or how if we don't change our system, the bills will be out of control, etc. The point is that there ARE plenty of issues with the current system that need corrected, and there are ways to correct them both via modification of our current sys and via conversion to a new methodology. Everyone is too concerned with bombast to be proactive. There's no reason the gov shouldn't look at all of these issues and work on creating a system from the ground up whereby most of them are eliminated (socialist or not, that's right I went there :)). But too many people are getting paid with the status quo, so there's a lot of static out there. Why not revise/subsidize med school? Why not reduce/eliminate malpractice litigation? These things have already been proposed ad nauseam but the truth is that this is a HUGE industry with HUGE lobbying power and they are going to fight any/all reform every step of the way.

Re: Obama Care
 

Those of you who constantly argue against the evils of "big government" need to remember that big business can be just as bad/worse. You're getting ****ed either way, just depends on who's doing the thrusting. With the federal gov't, at least there's the illusion of oversight.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;569357]Those of you who constantly argue against the evils of "big government" need to remember that big business can be just as bad/worse. You're getting ****ed either way, just depends on who's doing the thrusting. With the federal gov't, at least there's the illusion of oversight.[/quote]

Illusion is an interesting choice of words there. Are you saying that perception is reality?

And now I will drop a random TJ quote..."It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself."

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;569357]Those of you who constantly argue against the evils of "big government" need to remember that big business can be just as bad/worse. You're getting ****ed either way, just depends on who's doing the thrusting. With the federal gov't, at least there's the illusion of oversight.[/quote]

I was thinking of something along this lines earlier. I will probably express it wrong:

With Big Business, everyone expects the executives to be evil/greedy/selfish, this in turn leads people to require oversight, and check all the fine print.

With Big Government, people expect the politicians to be seeking the public good, and this in turn leads people to allow Government self regulation, and turning a blind eye to bureaucratic malaise.

Which one leads to a better end product, that tends to be the root of alot of debates.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;569356]The point is that there ARE plenty of issues with the current system that need corrected, and there are ways to correct them both via modification of our current sys and via conversion to a new methodology. Everyone is too concerned with bombast to be proactive. There's no reason the gov shouldn't look at all of these issues and work on creating a system from the ground up whereby most of them are eliminated (socialist or not, that's right I went there :)). But too many people are getting paid with the status quo, so there's a lot of static out there. Why not revise/subsidize med school? Why not reduce/eliminate malpractice litigation? These things have already been proposed ad nauseam but the truth is that this is a HUGE industry with HUGE lobbying power and they are going to fight any/all reform every step of the way.[/quote]I agree with you, the current system has issues and needs to be reformed....not scrapped and rebuilt in dramatic haste by a Dem supermajority that currently weilds ALL the political clout. This current legislation that's being crammed down our throats hasn't been thoroughly evaluated and I'll bet money over half the people voting on this thing haven't even read 10% of it. And if it's passed in its current form, the things I mentioned that will happen, or I'll send you a dollar (I'm not a high roller like saden).

P.S. no problem with a program for gov't grants/loans for med school. Reducing malpractice litigation would be a HUGE plus for docs and the medical industry. It's the left and the trail lawyers that are lobbying against that.

Re: Obama Care
 

so if a doctor mis-treats one of your family, you don't want him to pay? they need to be held accountable

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=dmek25;569374]so if a doctor mis-treats one of your family, you don't want him to pay? they need to be held accountable[/quote]Reducing.....not eliminate. Multi-million awards throw a monkey wrench into the malpractice insurance formula (Schneed can give more detail than I, I'm sure). I also don't agree with the $ 250K number floated a few years back by Bush & crew, it should be higher. But there has to be a finite number that malpractice insurers can work their premiums to cover, otherwise that cost will continue to spiral upwards.

There also needs to be better enforcement of existing systems in place to identify and punish bad docs.

[url=http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=ajrq5bdLgNew]Cap Medical Malpractice, Not Malpractice Awards: Ann Woolner - Bloomberg.com[/url]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=SmootSmack;569358]Illusion is an interesting choice of words there. Are you saying that perception is reality?

And now I will drop a random TJ quote..."It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself."[/quote]

I'm saying that if anyone realistically believes there is any true oversight of public officials or private corporations, whether it be via 4th estate or internal mechanisms, they are kidding themselves. So yes, in this case, perception is reality. The individual is not heard by either party, corp. or gov. But with the nature of our government, there is at least hope that there could one day be transparency and that the greater good is what is being looked after, and not the bottom line. The same cannot be said for business.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;569383]I'm saying that if anyone realistically believes there is any true oversight of public officials or private corporations, whether it be via 4th estate or internal mechanisms, they are kidding themselves. So yes, in this case, perception is reality. The individual is not heard by either party, corp. or gov.[B] But with the nature of our government, there is at least hope that there could one day be transparency and that the greater good is what is being looked after, and not the bottom line[/B]. The same cannot be said for business.[/quote]
whoa, what nature is that??? politicians run for the same reason corporate execs seek the top. power. the nature of our government like every government is a self expandingg seat of power. yes we have elections, yes we can boot the bums out, but lets be realistic, what is the turnover of politicians? unless they are real bad guys, or the president, they can stay in there forever. where is the transparency for a senator Byrd, or senator strom thurmond?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;569377]Reducing.....not eliminate. Multi-million awards throw a monkey wrench into the malpractice insurance formula (Schneed can give more detail than I, I'm sure). I also don't agree with the $ 250K number floated a few years back by Bush & crew, it should be higher. But there has to be a finite number that malpractice insurers can work their premiums to cover, otherwise that cost will continue to spiral upwards.

There also needs to be better enforcement of existing systems in place to identify and punish bad docs.

[url=http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=ajrq5bdLgNew]Cap Medical Malpractice, Not Malpractice Awards: Ann Woolner - Bloomberg.com[/url][/quote]

People act as if there are these, to paraphrase Lewis Black, "Medicinal Banditos" roaming the countryside in search of new ways to maim and kill. The threat of loss of license, livelihood and possible incarceration should be enough to limit irresponsible practice. I think people should be protected against possible malpractice, but it doesn't have to be in the form of a lottery ticket.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;569388]whoa, what nature is that??? politicians run for the same reason corporate execs seek the top. power. the nature of our government like every government is a self expandingg seat of power. yes we have elections, yes we can boot the bums out, but lets be realistic, what is the turnover of politicians? unless they are real bad guys, or the president, they can stay in there forever. where is the transparency for a senator Byrd, or senator strom thurmond?[/quote]

Nature of democracy is what I was referring to. But I share your pessimism. The only real weapon any populace has is the threat of revolution.

Re: Obama Care
 

It dawned on me last night while watching Obama talk about health care and how much this sounds just like what was said when they started the goverment run health care in Mass. Then it clicked that this bill is from Ted Kennedy and where the heck is he from? Thats right Mass. and I wonder how much of that failing programe is in this federal bill they are trying to pass today. I know this is a repost but what they expected to happen in Mass. is what Obama is saying about this bill and what he says will not happen is just what happened in Mass. Don't know how one could read this post and not relate it to what is going on now.
[url]http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp112.pdf[/url]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;569468]It dawned on me last night while watching Obama talk about health care and how much this sounds just like what was said when they started the goverment run health care in Mass. Then it clicked that this bill is from Ted Kennedy and where the heck is he from? Thats right Mass. and I wonder how much of that failing programe is in this federal bill they are trying to pass today. I know this is a repost but what they expected to happen in Mass. is what Obama is saying about this bill and what he says will not happen is just what happened in Mass. Don't know how one could read this post and not relate it to what is going on now.
[URL]http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp112.pdf[/URL][/quote]


You don't suppose that there might be some modifications to this bill that may address the Mass. health care problems?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=724Skinsfan;569473]You don't suppose that there might be some modifications to this bill that may address the Mass. health care problems?[/quote]
Maybe but I'll also bet Obama has not even read the bill.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;569485]Maybe but I'll also bet Obama has not even read the bill.[/quote]

I am sure he has. After the first reading, you mainly read mark ups, that is not as much as reading 1000 pages every time. I doubt ANY President puts his signature on a bill without at least knowing whats in it (granted it's not on his desk yet). For Congressmen and Senators, they can get away with it, claiming compromise blah blah blah.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;569485]Maybe but I'll also bet Obama has not even read the bill.[/quote]

Wow. Got a basis for that off the wall assertion?

Press Conference:
Q: So Mr. President, now that you've signed the Law, how do you expect Title IV, Subtitle 6 to affect [insert subject matter].

A. Ummmm, ahhhhh I didn't actually read that part. So, uh... ummmm.... aahh, now, I'll have to go ahead and have those reports back to you this afternoon ya' ummm.

His personal legislation which he wants and is intending to use as his landmark legislative project and you think he didn't read it?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;569495]Wow. Got a basis for that off the wall assertion?[/quote]

8 years of 'W' will do that to you.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Mattyk72;569521]8 years of 'W' will do that to you.[/quote]

I would say the same thing again. No President is going to be derelict and not read what they are signing, regardless of the party. These guys are not dumb, they just play it on TV ;)

Re: Obama Care
 

Some more red ink to consider:

[URL="http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/23/years-health-care-coverage-costs-turn-unfunded-mandate/"]After 10 Years, Health Care Coverage Costs Turn Into Unfunded Mandate - Political News - FOXNews.com[/URL]

From the article: For instance, one of the ways the House is raising funds to offset the cost of the health care reform is by "saving" some $380 billion from Medicare spending, according to the CBO.
But Medicare is already on the brink of collapse. Medicare Part A has $38 [B]trillion[/B] in unfunded liabilities. Any savings from Medicare would likely be used to help prevent its own financial problems.
[B]The Medicare Trust Fund also will not have enough money to pay its bills in 2017, just four years into the new reforms and yet no provision has been made to fix that. [/B]In fact, Medicare will need another $228 billion just from 2017 to 2019 to pay for promises already made by the federal government.

Re: Obama Care
 

SS33, do you realize every link you post from Fox is looked upon the same way you look at links from CNN? just wondering

Re: Obama Care
 

Dmek25, Thats why I try to find another source before posting because I know how the left feels about FOX. Even though I look at CNN as leaning left I do not rule out ever thing they write about and I would hope the people on the left would look at FOX the same way. Last night I missed most of Obama's speach but I did have fun flipping around from FOX, CNN, and MSNBC to get the different slants on what he said.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=dmek25;569557]SS33, do you realize every link you post from Fox is looked upon the same way you look at links from CNN? just wondering[/quote]I look at links from CNN as coming from a biased source with a liberal agenda. That doesn't mean I completely discount them as BS. Are there hard numbers in their article/link, if so where do they come from & how are they interpreted.

Anyway if this makes you feel better, here's the Trustees Report:

[URL]http://www.cms.hhs.gov/ReportsTrustFunds/downloads/tr2009.pdf[/URL]

My point is our current government medical benefit programs are stressed to point of insolvency in the next ten years without major reforms now. But Obama & the left-wing of the Dem party are trying to ram through another obscenely expensive government program. It doesn't make much sense.

Maybe Obama should be focusing on re-working Medicare and SS, less lofty goals than Universal Health Care, but far more practical and far more of an immediate need. How do you think an Obama re-election would look in 2012 if he achieved even modest success in these areas? Pretty good I'd say. With the control in Congress the Dems have it could easily pass and the Repubs would look real bad trying to stop it.

But again, Universal Health Care isn't the ultimate goal, it's expansion of the federal government to force more dependence and ultimately more confiscation of wealth/property. The only way to save all the benefit programs will be drastic tax increases, and not 1-2% either.

Re: Obama Care
 

Really it comes down to what is politically feasible. UHC, if it is ever to become real, has to be now. Strong liberal control of both legislative bodies, and a liberal president. If the Republicans gain in the midterm then the focus can shift back to SS/medicare, and paint the Republicans as cry babies. But right now is the time for the liberal base to push through as much dramatic underlying shift as possible. If they are able to, then as they say, to the victor goes the spoils.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;569580]Really it comes down to what is politically feasible. UHC, if it is ever to become real, has to be now. Strong liberal control of both legislative bodies, and a liberal president. If the Republicans gain in the midterm then the focus can shift back to SS/medicare, and paint the Republicans as cry babies. But right now is the time for the liberal base to push through as much dramatic underlying shift as possible. If they are able to, then as they say, to the victor goes the spoils.[/quote]
They have to pass it now before people get a chance to read the thing and realize how bad of a bill is.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;569580].....But right now is the time for the liberal base to push through as much dramatic underlying shift as possible. If they are able to, then as they say, to the victor goes the spoils.[/quote]
If they push through bad legislation, they will likely lose control of Congress in 2010, and possibly the White House in 2012.

Re: Obama Care
 

but the legislation will remain, hence my point. right now is the time for them to push radical changes through.

edit:
I don't know if i am really clear but once the republicans boost their representation the liberals will not be able to pass the extreme items of their agenda such as UHC, but they would certainly be able to argue for the salvation of existing programs. So even if this fight costs them seats, they want it because once it is law, no politician would be able to roll back medical care for the poor children that would be splashed across the tv screen.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;569585]but the legislation will remain, hence my point. right now is the time for them to push radical changes through. [/quote]I understand your point, I just hope the American people keep screaming loud enough that the Blue Dogs in the House or enough moderate Senators stop this thing.