Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Monksdown;920450]Until the advent of the singularity, a non-human cannot make an ethical determination. Ethics cannot be defined by a constant. Therefore, a math equation could not realistically encapsulate every variable it could represent.[/quote]

Hence, a computer program cannot currently adjudicate.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Lotus;920449]But the judicial system is founded on ethics. So we are back to the same question which you keep avoiding: how does "a computerized adjudication system" make ethical decisions?[/quote]

Then we already have ethics in place from which to model the decisions with supporting arguments pro and con.

[quote=Monksdown;920450]Until the advent of the singularity, a non-human cannot make an ethical determination. Ethics cannot be defined by a constant. Therefore, a math equation could not realistically encapsulate every variable it could represent.[/quote]

Technological singularity is about to happen. Challenge accepted! [SIZE=1](But not by me personally) [/SIZE]

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Monksdown;920450]Until the advent of the singularity, a non-human cannot make an ethical determination. Ethics cannot be defined by a constant. Therefore, a math equation could not realistically encapsulate every variable it could represent.[/quote]

Apostasy!!! Heresy!!! How dare you throw logic in the face of science. The Algorithm will save us from ourselves and only through the Algorithm can perfection be achieved.

(simplistically speaking that is).

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;920447]A law and its breach can be converted into an equation?[/quote]

Yes.

[quote=JoeRedskin;920447]Consideration of ethical behavior [I]derails[/I] a discussion of how to appropriately dispense justice?? [/quote]

It wasn't a part of my original point (which was this: [FONT=Courier New][I]It would be a much safer world if computers ran the judicial system jury and sentencing. No human bias.)[/I][/FONT], feel free to try to continue to force it though.

[quote=JoeRedskin;920447]Words cannot express the deep irony of and the incredible humor I find in your devotion to science.[/quote]

Yes, but you can probably stare at your belly button and be enthralled judging by your posts.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;920452][B]Then we already have ethics in place from which to model the decisions with supporting arguments pro and con.
[/B]


Technological singularity is about to happen. Challenge accepted! [SIZE=1](But not by me personally) [/SIZE][/quote]

So I must ask the same question yet again because you keep avoiding it: Which ethical theory do we already have "in place" from which we can "model the decisions" without controversy or, in your claim, without bias?

This is a basic Ethics 101 question. Certainly, since you claim to have a superior system of justice, you can answer an Ethics 101 question about the foundations of such a system.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Lotus;920458]So I must ask the same question yet again because you keep avoiding it: Which ethical theory do we already have "in place" from which we can "model the decisions" without controversy or, in your claim, without bias?

This is a basic Ethics 101 question. Certainly, since you claim to have a superior system of justice, you can answer an Ethics 101 question about the foundations of such a system.[/quote]

You tell me, you've appointed yourself expert. I'm sure you won't deny we have a justice system in place, right? What are we currently using and why?

I could care less, I'm too busy trying to reprogram an old Commodore 64 to execute mice.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;920447]A law and its breach can be converted into an equation? [/quote]
[quote=RedskinRat;920454]Yes. [/quote]

Prove this affirmative statement. You may have faith that your opinion is true but you have yet to offer an objective, extrinsically verifiable methodology demonstrating that all human statutes, regulations, contractual agreements and precedential based common law can be converted to formulas applicable to any and all factual situations that may arise. Lacking such proof, all you have is faith.

[quote=JoeRedskin;920447]Consideration of ethical behavior [I]derails[/I] a discussion of how to appropriately dispense justice??[/quote]
[quote=RedskinRat;920454]It wasn't a part of my original point, feel free to try to continue to force it though. [/quote]

Your original point was:
[quote=RedskinRat;919796]It would be a much safer world if computers ran the judicial system jury and sentencing. No human bias.[/quote]

Followed shortly thereafter by:
[quote=RedskinRat;919907]Emotion has no place in law.[/quote]

After that, you stated your intent was:
[quote=RedskinRat;920056]I am trying to create an infallible system.[/quote]

Thus, as to your original point, a “safer world” is achievable through the “infallible [judicial] system” that lacks bias and emotion. Obviously, to be infallible, the achievable computerized judicial system would necessarily render a correct result in every matter subject to that system.

To render correct results in the determination of crimes & penalties (criminal law), settlement of disputed agreements between parties (contract law), and the determination of whether a party has wronged another party (tort law), the infallible judicial system must have the ability to incorporate the concept of justice into its analysis of the specific facts (including the parties’ states of mind at various point of the relevant timeline), common law, statutes, contracts and/or regulations at issue. Failure to incorporate the necessary element of justice into such a judicial system, [i]ipso facto[/i] renders the system inherently fallible.

As Lotus has demonstrated, justice, by definition, includes an ethical component [i]i.e.[/i] an ability to factor into any final determination the concept of "just results". As articulated by Monksdown, ethics contains a variable not achievable by computers until the singularity has occurred. If you concede this, then you must also concede the falsity of your original assertion that “It would be a much safer world if computers ran the judicial system jury and sentencing”.

If you dispute Monksdown statement, the burden is upon you to prove that “ethics [i]can[/i] be defined by a constant”. Otherwise, your belief that “It would be a much safer world if computers ran the judicial system jury and sentencing” is merely an unprovable article of faith you hold dear and that is unsupported by any extrinsic, verifiable proof.

A consideration of ethics is essential to your original assertion that “It would be a much safer world if computers ran the judicial system”. The pages of twists, turns and digressions in this matter are the direct result of your inability to admit the inherent logical error of this original statement and, alternatively, your failure to offer objective, extrinsically verifiable prove of its truth.

[quote=JoeRedskin;920447] Words cannot express the deep irony of and the incredible humor I find in your devotion to science.[/quote]
[quote=RedskinRat;920056]Yes, but you can probably stare at your belly button and be enthralled judging by your posts.[/quote]

While my belly button [i]is[/i] enthralling, what I find so [i]deeply[/i] humorous is the smugness and intensity with which you – oh most vicious critic of those who have faith in the uprovable - defend an unprovable assertion in which you appear to have a deep and abiding faith. Truly, you are worthy of the most vicious mocking.

Preach on brother, your faith will see you through!

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;920476]You tell me, you've appointed yourself expert. I'm sure you won't deny we have a justice system in place, right? What are we currently using and why?

I could care less, I'm too busy trying to reprogram an old Commodore 64 to execute mice.[/quote]

Three strikes, you're out.

I asked a simple, basic question about the ethical basis for the system of justice you are proposing. Three times you have failed to offer an intelligent response. Obviously you have not at all thought through the very foundation of your system.

The fact is, Monksdown was correct above. The fact is that you cannot simply turn ethical decisions into mathematical equations. Anyone who knows anything about ethics knows this fact.

I suggest that before you start pontificating again about making ethics into quantifiable equations, you first learn the basics about what ethical theory is all about.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Lotus;920479]Three strikes, you're out.[/quote]
Like most of your comments that wasn't a strike. Also, you weren't appointed Ump so I'm still very '[I]In[/I]'.

[quote=Lotus;920479]I asked a simple, basic question about the ethical basis for the system of justice you are proposing. [/quote]

Which I answered: Whatever 'we're' currently using. Why do you refuse to accept the answer?

[quote=Lotus;920479] Three times you have failed to offer an intelligent response. Obviously you have not at all thought through the very foundation of your system.[/quote]

Again, I responded. Oh, and by the way; you can't count.

[quote=Lotus;920479]The fact is, Monksdown was correct above. The fact is that you cannot simply turn ethical decisions into mathematical equations. Anyone who knows anything about ethics knows this fact.[/quote]

Do we have any ethics experts here? Any math experts? My theory is sound even without evidence.

[quote=Lotus;920479]I suggest that before you start pontificating again about making ethics into quantifiable equations, you first learn the basics about what ethical theory is all about.[/quote]

Feel free to make any suggestions you like, you're not any kind of authority here so I'll continue to theorize to entertain myself and you can mock away.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;920485]Do we have any ethics experts here? Any math experts? [B]My theory is sound even without evidence.[/B][/quote]

Nope. Doesn't sound a bit like a faith based argument to me!

[quote=RedskinRat;920485]Feel free to make any suggestions you like, you're not any kind of authority here so I'll continue to theorize to entertain myself and you can mock away.[/quote]

You make faaaarrrrr to easy.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;920476]You tell me, you've appointed yourself expert. I'm sure you won't deny we have a justice system in place, right? What are we currently using and why?[/quote]

We are using judicial system based on an amalgalm of ethical judgments made by individual judges, jurors and lawmakers over the course of several hundred years and filtered through a broader (and growing broader every day) amalgam of ethical systems used by [I]current[/I] judges, jurors and lawmakers. I shall call this "HA" or the Holy Algorithm.

Please demonstrate the equation that can quantify the pre-existing amalgalm of ethical systems currently in place as it applies to every existing statute, regulation & legal precedent and previously decided factual situation and account for the ever growing and changing ethical systems used by individuals and the ever growing ever changing laws, regualations and precedent currently in play that could resolve and address every factual situation that arises such that the equation would, for example, account for the fact that 50 years ago, two men having a sexual relationship could be imprisoned and that now, in several states they may engage in State sanctioned marriage.

It's simple, HA + Facts = "Correct" Result! Ta daaaaa! All we gotta do is quantify the Holy Algorithm and all humanity will be saved!!


Preach on brother Rat, I know that science can save us from ourselves!! I have faith that your[quote=RedskinRat;920485]theory is sound even without evidence.[/quote]



As an aside, I [I]cannot[/I] wait to download the Computer Judge app. It will make my job sooooo much easier.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;920478]Prove this affirmative statement. You may have faith[/quote]

Faith? No, I [U]believe[/U] based on what I have studied and where 'things' are heading?

[quote=JoeRedskin;920478] including the parties’ states of mind at various point of the relevant timeline[/quote]

Did I mention that I'm getting rid of insanity plea?


[quote=JoeRedskin;920478]As Lotus has demonstrated, justice, by definition, includes an ethical component [I]i.e.[/I] an ability to factor into any final determination the concept of "just results".[/quote]

I've already said we have 'ethics' in place.

[quote=JoeRedskin;920478] As articulated by Monksdown, ethics contains a variable not achievable by computers until the singularity has occurred.[/quote]

Monksdown stated it, he didn't prove it.

[quote=JoeRedskin;920478] If you concede this, then you must also concede the falsity of your original assertion that “It would be a much safer world if computers ran the judicial system jury and sentencing”.[/quote]

No, I don't concede the point. It's just the best current hope hypothesized by people in this field.

[quote=JoeRedskin;920478]If you dispute Monksdown statement, the burden is upon you to prove that “ethics [I]can[/I] be defined by a constant”. Otherwise, your belief that “It would be a much safer world if computers ran the judicial system jury and sentencing” is merely an unprovable article of faith you hold dear and that is unsupported by any extrinsic, verifiable proof.[/quote]

I'm working on it........

[quote=JoeRedskin;920478]A consideration of ethics is essential to your original assertion that “It would be a much safer world if computers ran the judicial system”[/quote]

No. Still no. Nothing to do with the statement as we already have ethics in place.

[quote=JoeRedskin;920478] The pages of twists, turns and digressions[/quote]

I have not twisted nor turned. What an odd thing to say.

[quote=JoeRedskin;920478].... in this matter are the direct result of your inability to admit the inherent logical error of this original statement and, alternatively, your failure to offer objective, extrinsically verifiable prove of its truth.[/quote]

No, as I have already stated numerous times [U][B]WE HAVE ETHICS IN PLACE NOW.[/B][/U] Bringing up ethics is a weak attempt at derailing the conversation.

[quote=JoeRedskin;920478]While my belly button [I]is[/I] enthralling, what I find so [I]deeply[/I] humorous is the smugness and intensity with which you – oh most vicious critic of those who have faith in the uprovable - defend an unprovable assertion in which you appear to have a deep and abiding faith. Truly, you are worthy of the most vicious mocking.[/quote]

Oh, that's what this is really about? Please continue mocking me, I'll still be amused by your faith.

Preach on brother, your faith will see you through![/QUOTE]

I am not preaching, I leave that to your kind. Don't forget to pray tonight.......

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;920485]
Which I answered: Whatever 'we're' currently using. Why do you refuse to accept the answer?

My theory is sound even without evidence.

[/quote]

First, "Whatever 'we're' currently using" is not an intelligent answer. It is an obvious admission that you have no idea what you are talking about. You've made an argument which is inherently ethical yet you obviously know nothing about ethics.

Second, :lol: :laughing2 :rofl: Your statement about not needing evidence is hilarious! Thank you, I will laugh about that claim for a long, long time. You argued that science has all of the answers and then you completely abdicate science, which always demands evidence. You stabbed yourself in the back by abdicating the essence of science, the reliance on evidence! There is no need to defeat you in argument; you have voluntarily defeated yourself.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;920491]
as I have already stated numerous times [U][B]WE HAVE ETHICS IN PLACE NOW.[/B][/U] [/quote]

NO WE DON'T. We have many competing and sometimes conflicting ethical theories in play. Take Ethics 101 please because any beginning ethics student ALREADY KNOWS THIS.

But let's play it your way: if we have one ethical system in place now, NAME IT.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

How would this Perfect Judge computer handled the following situation:

[quote][I]You[/I] come home, you see another man in [I]your[/I] home banging [I]your[/I] wife in [I]your[/I] bed. You pickup the butcher knife in the kitchen and swiftly execute the scoundrel by stabbing him the neck.[/quote]

How would you translate this situation into a mathematical formula so as to produce a judgment that's more fair than one that could be delivered by 12 jurors?


Ethics isn't clear cut and dry. It's slimy and sometimes unsavory (i.e. the murder of a tyrant, wait, who designates who is a tyrant?).

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=saden1;920501]How would this Perfect Judge computer handled the following situation:



How would you translate this situation into a mathematical formula so as to produce a judgment that's more fair than one that could be delivered by 12 jurors?


Ethics isn't clear cut and dry. It's slimy and sometimes unsavory (i.e. the murder of a tyrant, wait, who designates who is a tyrant?).[/quote]How about following IBM Watson's example and have a computer reference a database of legal precedents?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;920491]Faith? No, I [U]believe[/U] based on what I have studied and where 'things' are heading?[/quote]

Yup - My faith is based on the exact same type of "belief".
[EDIT - BTW, Nice quote of an incomplete sentence (conveniently leaving out the need for objective, extrinsically verifiable methodology to avoid faith based beliefs) ... but then, I am sure you would never call others up on that.]

[quote=RedskinRat;920491]Did I mention that I'm getting rid of insanity plea?[/quote]

And what's your algorithm for determining legistlative intent? A party's intent when entering into a contract? Whether or not an individual had the appropriate [I]mens rea[/I] to commit a specific offense?

[quote=RedskinRat;920491]I've already said we have 'ethics' in place.[/quote]

Ah, so, through all the written decisions, statutes regulations and legal treatises now in existence, we have acheived an ethical perfection that will be fully applicable to all future factual situations [I]regardless[/I] of any technological advances, different economic realities or changing morays of society presented to us in the future. Excellent! Of course, certain fundamentalist groups of various religions would assert the we had acheived this perfection several hundred years ago.

Of course ... unlike such prior claims, your assertion that unchanging ethics will always render just results must be right because your assertion is based on science! Unproven and unverifiable science but science nonetheless ... b/c, as everyone knows, you don't need evidence for science.


...
[quote=JoeRedskin;920478]If you concede this, then you must also concede the falsity of your original assertion that “It would be a much safer world if computers ran the judicial system jury and sentencing”.[/quote]

[quote=RedskinRat;920491]No, I don't concede the point. It's just the best current hope hypothesized by people in this field.[/quote]

What field? Computer programmers? Lawyers? Plumbers?

As I said, you dispute it ... so then prove it. At this point, you have not even demonstrated that it is a provable theory.

[quote=RedskinRat;920491] [blah blah blah] ... No, as I have already stated numerous times [U][B]WE HAVE ETHICS IN PLACE NOW.[/B][/U] Bringing up ethics is a weak attempt at derailing the conversation.[/quote]

Assuming [I]arguendo[/I] that our current ethical system, as encapsulated in all written decisions, statutes regulations and legal treatises now in existence, will continue to render just results in all future fact patterns, -- if you wish all future generations to be bound by the ethics we "have ... in place now", the first step is to quanitfy them - please demonstrate that you can do so. Only then can you demonstrate the objective and verifiable truth of your statement that we would have a "safer world if computers ran the judicial system jury and sentencing".

[quote=JoeRedskin;920478]While my belly button is enthralling, what I find so deeply humorous is the smugness and intensity with which you – oh most vicious critic of those who have faith in the uprovable - defend an unprovable assertion in which you appear to have a deep and abiding faith. Truly, you are worthy of the most vicious mocking.[/quote]

[quote=RedskinRat;920491]Oh, that's what this is really about? Please continue mocking me, [B]I'll still be amused by your faith[/B].[/quote]

And I yours.

[quote=JoeRedskin;920478]Preach on brother, your faith will see you through![/quote]
[quote=RedskinRat;920491]I am not preaching, I leave that to your kind. [/quote]

"My kind"? Pray tell what "kind" that might be? Please point out to me where have "preached" my position or assertions based on "faith" or "belief" in this thread. Rather, I am simply seeking proof from the individual who has, in the past, asserted that the failure to provide tangible proof of a belief renders that belief invalid.

Is your faith in science that fragile that you must once again invoke "Captain Deflection"?

[quote=RedskinRat;920491] Don't forget to pray tonight.......[/quote]
I shan't. Thank you for the concern for my spiritual well being.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=HailGreen28;920515]How about following IBM Watson's example and have a computer reference a database of legal precedents?[/quote]

Which is, of course, fine in its limited capabilities - but that is merely data retrieval. The trick, of course, is discerning which "legal precedent", from the many similar but distinct past fact patterns applying the same law, is applicable to the entirely new fact pattern presented by your case. Essential to [I]that[/I] analysis is determining which particular prior distinct fact pattern - or combination of them - should be chosen to be applicable to you. (Why will one legal precedent create a more just result for you than another equally similar but distinct fact pattern)?

No one is saying that computers cannot aid in many respects and in some of the most cut and dried cases of "black letter law" matters do much of the work (for example - initial determinations on whether a car went through a red light). The problem, of course, is that the vast majority of cases adjudicated by the judicial system are not such cut and dry matters.

EDIT: By the way, you realize the "database of legal precedents" is in existence. I can access, through Westlaw and Lexus, every legal treatise published in the US since the 1700's and every case, statute and regulation from every jurisdiction since that time (excluding local regs and ordinances - but they exist in separate databases that could easily be linked for access by the Holy Algorithm). Further, they aren't just stored but linked through hyperlinks so that the evolution of the various concepts can be traced through prior cases. They are also categorized by paragraph as to the distinct legal concepts to which they are relevant.

The job of jurists and jurors everywhere is to determine what of that intertwined information is relevant to and how it is applicable to the distinct and specific set of facts each new matter presents.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;920521]Which is, of course, fine in its limited capabilities - but that is merely data retrieval. The trick, of course, is discerning which "legal precedent", from the many similar but distinct past fact patterns applying the same law, is applicable to the entirely new fact pattern presented by your case. Essential to [I]that[/I] analysis is determining which particular prior distinct fact pattern - or combination of them - should be chosen to be applicable to you. (Why will one legal precedent create a more just result for you than another equally similar but distinct fact pattern)?[/quote]Couldn't the details of each case be listed as part of the database? I think the fact patterns would basically write themselves in searches of the database, if the details of the cases were given relevance based on what was proven in court.

Just thought of a point against "robo-judge". These fact patterns couldn't be evidence in themselves of guilt. Just because say a person in Arkansas in a city that is arrested for larceny with a prior charge but no conviction while robbing a department store at 3pm during the summer is 90% likely to have committed the crime. But maybe you could use the database to sort what factors are used to prove innocence or guilt? That witness statements are the deciding factor, or employees accounts? And determine guilt or innocence based on what evidence convicts people in previous cases. So you input the details of the case, and get a verdict based on those detail. Could we assign a weight or percent to evidence based on credibility with a computer like we do as people?

[quote=JoeRedskin;920521]No one is saying that computers cannot aid in many respects and in some of the most cut and dried cases of "black letter law" matters do much of the work (for example - initial determinations on whether a car went through a red light). The problem, of course, is that the vast majority of cases adjudicated by the judicial system are not such cut and dry matters.

EDIT: By the way, you realize the "database of legal precedents" is in existence. I can access, through Westlaw and Lexus, every legal treatise published in the US since the 1700's and every case, statute and regulation from every jurisdiction since that time (excluding local regs and ordinances - but they exist in separate databases that could easily be linked for access by the Holy Algorithm). Further, they aren't just stored but linked through hyperlinks so that the evolution of the various concepts can be traced through prior cases. They are also categorized by paragraph as to the distinct legal concepts to which they are relevant. [/quote]No, I didn't know that organizations like Westlaw and LexisNexis existed. Neat and makes sense. Sounds like these works should be certified (maybe already are?) and required use for all jurists. Not to follow whatever patterns these organizations would recommend based on just a search, but every attorney/judge required to know how to use and have an active account with a certified database. Even if it is kinda redundant to what people have to know now.

[quote=JoeRedskin;920521]The job of jurists and jurors everywhere is to determine what of that intertwined information is relevant to and how it is applicable to the distinct and specific set of facts each new matter presents.[/quote]I'm thinking it may be possible to write algorithms to do that by computer. Starting with the sentence for a conviction being "x" based on precendent, and working on a program to determine guilt based not just on precedent but weighing the appropriate facts. Would still need proceedings and qualified officers of the court to get and weigh the evidence, and I'm sure there's a lot I'm missing. But how does this sound so far?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Wow...seriously? $9,999?

[url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/12/shellie-zimmerman-arrested-george-zimmerman-wife_n_1591153.html]Shellie Zimmerman Arrested: George Zimmerman's Wife Charged With Perjury[/url]

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Transfers of $10,000 or more must be reported by the bank. Seems pretty clear to me that the amount indicates an intent keep the bank from reporting it.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_Secrecy_Act]Bank Secrecy Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Wow. Some serious lying happening ... and some serious stupidity. You really think you can claim being penniless and not have your banking and financial records subpoenaed? :doh:

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;921065]Transfers of $10,000 or more must be reported by the bank. Seems pretty clear to me that the amount indicates an intent keep the bank from reporting it.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_Secrecy_Act"]Bank Secrecy Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL]

Wow. Some serious lying happening ... and some serious stupidity. You really think you can claim being penniless and not have your banking and financial records subpoenaed? :doh:[/quote]

[quote]"Zimmerman instructed his wife to "pay off all the bills," which included those for American Express and Sam’s Club credit cards."[/quote]

LOL, these people are seriously beyond stupid. Not only are they taking money as if there won't be record of it but they are using it to pay-off personal debt. I wonder if all that money can ever be considered tax exempt now?

I would be super pissed to know the money isn't going towards a legal defense fund but to payoff their debt.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;921065]Transfers of $10,000 or more must be reported by the bank. Seems pretty clear to me that the amount indicates an intent keep the bank from reporting it.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_Secrecy_Act"]Bank Secrecy Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL]

Wow. Some serious lying happening ... and some serious stupidity. You really think you can claim being penniless and not have your banking and financial records subpoenaed? :doh:[/quote]

They could also be so stupid they thought they were hiding the money from the IRS and not the judge. If I'm correct didn't they bring up the money to their lawyer and then he disclosed the money to the courts.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Hiding the second passport in the safety deposit box? Yeah, this guy was gonna make a run for it. 9,999 transfers are laughable...also using the money to pay off credit card bills? lol wow

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=saden1;921057]Wow...seriously? $9,999?

[url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/12/shellie-zimmerman-arrested-george-zimmerman-wife_n_1591153.html]Shellie Zimmerman Arrested: George Zimmerman's Wife Charged With Perjury[/url][/quote]


My head hurts seeing the type of stupidity displayed here. What went through their feeble minds? A nationally scrutinized case, in which the governor of the state and federal agencies got involved, and you think you were going to somehow get that by them without noticing? Those guys are going to comb through his shit just to find a kernel out of place, never the less bust him on a perjury/lying charge. What a huge dumbass. Both of them.


[quote=Chico23231;921074]Hiding the second passport in the safety deposit box? Yeah, this guy was gonna make a run for it. 9,999 transfers are laughable...also using the money to pay off credit card bills? lol wow[/quote]

I wouldn't say they were going to run for it. Why would you bother paying off bills if you were going to make a run for it.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=NC_Skins;921075]My head hurts seeing the type of stupidity displayed here. What went through their feeble minds? A nationally scrutinized case, in which the governor of the state and federal agencies got involved, and you think you were going to somehow get that by them without noticing? Those guys are going to comb through his shit just to find a kernel out of place, never the less bust him on a perjury/lying charge. What a huge dumbass. Both of them.




I wouldn't say they were going to run for it. [B]Why would you bother paying off bills if you were going to make a run for it.[/B][/quote]

A paid-off Amex bill could free up credit card space to help a run. Sam's Club is perhaps a different story. And yes, running by using a credit card would be dumb, but have these characters shown any sense?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Anybody notice Shellie Zimmerman has an uncanny resemblance to the b-movie actress Divine? Nice catch there George

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Chico23231;921074]Hiding the second passport in the safety deposit box? Yeah, this guy was gonna make a run for it. 9,999 transfers are laughable...also using the money to pay off credit card bills? lol wow[/quote]

If your planning to run why would you pay off you credit cards?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Lotus;921080]A paid-off Amex bill could free up credit card space to help a run. Sam's Club is perhaps a different story. And yes, running by using a credit card would be dumb, but have these characters shown any sense?[/quote]


The Amex card wouldn't help you either, because law enforcement could easily track you, and chances are they would probably have the credit card company disable it as well. Cold hard cash is what you would want on the run.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=firstdown;921192]If your planning to run why would you pay off you credit cards?[/quote]

i dunno, why do you walk around with a gun chasing down unarmed teenagers and then shooting them in your neighborhood?

i mean honestly, hasnt he proven to be a well thought out individual?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Chico23231;921213]i dunno, why do you walk around with a gun chasing down unarmed teenagers and then shooting them in your neighborhood?

[B]i mean honestly, hasnt he proven to be a well thought out individual?[/B][/quote]

That was my point. It seems like we should expect stupidity from him.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Anyone know how much credit card debt they had?

JoeRedskins - i would suspect in a case like this Zimmerman's wife would be one his better witnesses. She doesnt have to testify against him, she can only testify for him. So now if she gets called up, the first thing the prosecutor would ask her is "have you ever been charged with a crime involving lying, deceit or perjury?", and let it all go downhill from there.

This had been a pretty open and shut not guilty case to me (by FL law), does this change anything in your opinion? Big deal or not so big? Can she be forced to testify at all? If not do you think she will?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

As a defense lawyer I don't know how you can have a perjurer on the stand...seems to me that is a huge liability rather than an asset.

Unethical people do stupid unethical things....lady karma strikes again.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Chico23231;921213]i dunno, why do you walk around with a gun chasing down unarmed teenagers and then shooting them in your neighborhood?

[B]i mean honestly, hasnt he proven to be a well thought out individual?[/B][/quote]


LOL...they make quite a pair. I still don't understand how people can assert his innocence without a shadow of a doubt in light of the couples complete dishonesty.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

My opinion had been that this is a manslaughter case at best b/c nobody knows - beyond a reasonable doubt - that Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation (negating the self-defense claim) or acted with "reckless disregard" (standard for gross negligence & 2nd degree murder) for Martin's safety. [I know others believe Zimm's [I]known[/I] actions constituted an initation of the physical confrontation or constituted the requisite "reckless disregard" - based on my understanding of those to legal principles, I disagree but am not going to argue the isssue at this point.]

Do I think this changes things - yup. The wife gets up on the stand and she is pretty much doomed. Zimmerman almost has to testify to assert his "self-defense" defense. Once he does, he will (and should be) crossed mercilessly on his assertion of self defense. I don't know what status of the spousal immunity laws are in FL. Could the prosecution call her? Probably. Would they? Maybe. I probably would but it would also depend on a lot of other factors that go into case presentation that I haven't really looked at. Bottom line - Zimm's "poor little ol' me" defense has just taken a serious blow.

In a case where his affirmative defense places considerable reliance [EDIT: relies almost exclusively] on his credibility, he just torpedeod it. It still is the State's burden to show gross negligence (for 2nd degree) but Zimmerman will be taking a big risk if he gets on the stand to dispute the evidence presented.

I think this went from a likely not guilty with a possibility of manslaughter to a likelihood of manslaughter with a possibility of 2nd degree murder. Again, just my opinion - I am sure others here see it differently.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

To sum up - Zimmerman has pretty much given the State [I]carte blanche[/I] to present evidence against him which he won't then be able to dispute.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Interesting Zimmerman himself wasnt charged with perjury. Maybe they cant until his case is over or it could be cause for a mistrial or something? I mean if they charge him too it would give additional reason for the defense to not call him.

Maybe the [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]prosecution desperately wants him to be called? Take away his wife to force him on the stand. [/FONT][/COLOR]

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;921232]My opinion had been that this is a manslaughter case at best b/c nobody knows - beyond a reasonable doubt - that Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation (negating the self-defense claim) or acted with "reckless disregard" (standard for gross negligence & 2nd degree murder) for Martin's safety. [I know others believe Zimm's [I]known[/I] actions constituted an initation of the physical confrontation or constituted the requisite "reckless disregard" - based on my understanding of those to legal principles, I disagree but am not going to argue the isssue at this point.]

Do I think this changes things - yup. The wife gets up on the stand and she is pretty much doomed. Zimmerman almost has to testify to assert his "self-defense" defense. Once he does, he will (and should be) crossed mercilessly on his assertion of self defense. I don't know what status of the spousal immunity laws are in FL. Could the prosecution call her? Probably. Would they? Maybe. I probably would but it would also depend on a lot of other factors that go into case presentation that I haven't really looked at. Bottom line - Zimm's "poor little ol' me" defense has just taken a serious blow.

In a case where his affirmative defense places considerable reliance [EDIT: relies almost exclusively] on his credibility, he just torpedeod it. It still is the State's burden to show gross negligence (for 2nd degree) but Zimmerman will be taking a big risk if he gets on the stand to dispute the evidence presented.

I think this went from a likely not guilty with a possibility of manslaughter to a likelihood of manslaughter with a possibility of 2nd degree murder. Again, just my opinion - I am sure others here see it differently.[/quote]

Man you really need to become a lawyer.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[url=http://gma.yahoo.com/texas-man-found-guilty-killing-neighbor-dispute-053934284--abc-news-topstories.html]Texas Man Found Guilty for Killing Neighbor in Dispute - Yahoo![/url]

very interesting. in both cases neither of these people show the competency to own a firearm

Hopefully Zim's fate is similar.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

There are a couple of significant factual distinctions from the Martin case:
1. Rodriguez [the neighbor] was apparently on his neighbor's property; and
2. He was brandishing his gun as he entered the property.

From the article: "[Rodriguez] walked up to Danaher's driveway with a flashlight and gun."

Stand your ground is inapplicable b/c he had no right to trespass upon his neighbor's property.
Self-defense is inapplicable b/c he brandished his weapon as he trespassed (i.e. [I]Rodriguez[/I] threatened deadly force initially. The law does not permit you to threaten others with the highest level of force then, when they reasonably respond with the same level of force, claim you were exercising self-defense].

(1) Both Martin & Zimmerman had a right to be on the public throughway (Martin was invited into the gated community);

(2) There is no evidence that Zimmerman brandished his weapon upon confronting Martin or otherwise threatened any level of force. Verbal confrontation [I]without[/I] physical threat does not permit a violent response.

I do agree with this statement and, in relation to the perjury issues, think it is the reason Zimmerman will be found guilty of either manslaughter or 2nd degree murder:

"The defense did not present much of a case as it called no witnesses and Rodriguez didn't testify. Legal experts say if defendants are going to successfully argue self-defense, the jury wants to hear from them."