Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[QUOTE=skinsfaninok;1239067][IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELbkQaxXsAAmtNi?format=jpg&name=4096x4096[/IMG]



Not good[/QUOTE]


I wonder what it would look like just based on his starts and not including the two mop up duty games


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Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=MTK;1239119]I wonder what it would look like just based on his starts and not including the two mop up duty games


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No way his stats go nothing but way up taking away those 2 games. He was always a project and we suck and our HC (that didn't even want him) got fired and our play calling is now from the stone ages.

I think he is making progress and definitely enough to get at least 1 more year under a real coaching staff.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[URL="https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2019/12/10083359/first-drive-sack.mp4?_=2"]https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2019/12/10083359/first-drive-sack.mp4?_=2[/URL]

Haskins eats sacks, on pace for 70 if he played all season...

This is part of the reason, stared down his #1 read for too long, also had one earlier where he had Guice in the flats and got sacked.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1239138][URL="https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2019/12/10083359/first-drive-sack.mp4?_=2"]https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2019/12/10083359/first-drive-sack.mp4?_=2[/URL]

[B]Haskins eats sacks, on pace for 70 if he played all season[/B]...

This is part of the reason, stared down his #1 read for too long, also had one earlier where he had Guice in the flats and got sacked.[/quote]

That hasn't improved at all since the first game he appeared in. He needs to learn to throw the ball away when the situation dictates it. You can't have 5 seconds to throw in the NFL like at OSU.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

Part of the reason he eats sacks is he doesn't move along in his read progressions quickly enough. Brees and Cousins are experts at going boom boom boom boom, they can get to the 4th target in the progression in 2 seconds.

Haskins takes 2 seconds per target (I'm making that up, but it feels that way). It's a sign he doesn't know the offense well.

Is it getting better, sure. But it's still not satisfactory. The rate at which he's improving isn't even satisfactory. I'm in the 'bust' camp.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=Schneed10;1239141]Part of the reason he eats sacks is he doesn't move along in his read progressions quickly enough. Brees and Cousins are experts at going boom boom boom boom, they can get to the 4th target in the progression in 2 seconds.

Haskins takes 2 seconds per target (I'm making that up, but it feels that way). It's a sign he doesn't know the offense well.

Is it getting better, sure. But it's still not satisfactory. The rate at which he's improving isn't even satisfactory. I'm in the 'bust' camp.[/quote]

This.

A perfect example of this is last weeks game, two plays, the TD pass to McLaurin and the Int late in the 2nd q. Late on both, on one the wr bailed him out, the other killed possible points.

With time hopefully he will improve on these things. It's not like it ain't correctable. I'd like to see him with a full off season and training camp being the starter before he's called a bust.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1239144]This.

A perfect example of this is last weeks game, two plays, the TD pass to McLaurin and the Int late in the 2nd q. Late on both, on one the wr bailed him out, the other killed possible points.

With time hopefully he will improve on these things. It's not like it ain't correctable. I'd like to see him with a full off season and training camp being the starter before he's called a bust.[/quote]

And he'll be on a rookie contract for at least three more years so there's no reason to do anything but continue to give him time.

But the key question for me, given our draft position, is this:

If Joe Burrow, Tua Tagovailoa, or Justin Herbert are available to us when we pick, would you pass them up and hope Haskins develops into what you want? Or do you snap up a new QB under the thinking that we don't know when we'll draft this high again and get a chance like this?

It's a huge question a new GM / President / Head Coach with Player Personnel (hopefully ANYBODY but Bruce) will have to answer.

I pull the trigger on the new QB, especially if it's Burrow. I'm not hanging my success or failure on the snail's pace development of Dwayne Haskins. I don't care if you keep Haskins and let him compete with a new draft pick, or you trade him away for pennies on the dollar. If I'm in love with a QB in this draft, I don't hesitate to cast Haskins aside like a pair of underwear with holes in the crotch.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

Cant we have him only responsible for reading one half of the field per play or ask him to only make 1 read and if its not there just immediately go to the checkdown/hot route?

Juts feels like we never have a clean/quick 3 or 5 step drop, the ball is out once the back foot hits sequence.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

Per Gregg Rosenthal tweet:

Since taking over as the Washington starter in Week 9, Dwayne Haskins’ PFF grade is 17th out of 38 qualifiers.

Not great, not walk him off the plank bad either. Draft Chase Young or Andrew Thomas.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

Josh Allen is the closest comparable I can think of.

I have only watched a few of his games last year and this year but it seems like last year but they both:

- have a live arm
- a tad slow on the quick timing routes
- inconsistent accuracy
- stands well in the pocket
- progressions, can work through them but slow, needs time
- willing to scramble (bigger part of Allens game but Haskins has run much more than we thought)

This year Allen is playing better, more accurate on medium routes, more decisive on short quick hits, better situational awareness

I hope Haskins can take the next step like Allen did this year but credit to Bills for taking a smart approach.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=Schneed10;1239149]And he'll be on a rookie contract for at least three more years so there's no reason to do anything but continue to give him time.

But the key question for me, given our draft position, is this:

If Joe Burrow, Tua Tagovailoa, or Justin Herbert are available to us when we pick, would you pass them up and hope Haskins develops into what you want? Or do you snap up a new QB under the thinking that we don't know when we'll draft this high again and get a chance like this?

It's a huge question a new GM / President / Head Coach with Player Personnel (hopefully ANYBODY but Bruce) will have to answer.

I pull the trigger on the new QB, especially if it's Burrow. I'm not hanging my success or failure on the snail's pace development of Dwayne Haskins. I don't care if you keep Haskins and let him compete with a new draft pick, or you trade him away for pennies on the dollar. If I'm in love with a QB in this draft, I don't hesitate to cast Haskins aside like a pair of underwear with holes in the crotch.[/quote]

I totally agree with this !!!!

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[QUOTE=MTK;1239119]I wonder what it would look like just based on his starts and not including the two mop up duty games


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Look where Kirk cousins is on that chart- near the top.


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Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1239203]Per Gregg Rosenthal tweet:

Since taking over as the Washington starter in Week 9, Dwayne Haskins’ PFF grade is 17th out of 38 qualifiers.

Not great, not walk him off the plank bad either. Draft Chase Young or Andrew Thomas.[/quote]

I would be interested how they use fun with numbers to come up with that as he is on the bottom or close to it in most all statistical categories.
In his 5 starts he has completed 55% of his passes, been sacked 22 times and averages 137 net passing yards a game and PFF claims that grades out as average? You can't be serious, utter nonsense.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=Buffalo Bob;1239327]I would be interested how they use fun with numbers to come up with that as he is on the bottom or close to it in most all statistical categories.
In his 5 starts he has completed 55% of his passes, been sacked 22 times and averages 137 net passing yards a game and PFF claims that grades out as average? You can't be serious, utter nonsense.[/quote]

I have no idea how PFF grades their games/players. But I know its a widely used tool. Not an end all/be all by any stretch. I'm sure there are other legit sources that have him lower. Just another tool to use.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=Buffalo Bob;1239327]I would be interested how they use fun with numbers to come up with that as he is on the bottom or close to it in most all statistical categories.
In his 5 starts he has completed 55% of his passes, been sacked 22 times and averages 137 net passing yards a game and PFF claims that grades out as average? You can't be serious, utter nonsense.[/quote]

We don't look at stats while grading players, I can see how you would think its nonsense and fake but his grades are 17th in that span due to his QB Grades. Every throw is graded and say he has a game with 5 drops (he did) that doesn't hurt him but the completion % doesn't take that into consideration.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1239330]I have no idea how PFF grades their games/players. But I know its a widely used tool. Not an end all/be all by any stretch. I'm sure there are other legit sources that have him lower. Just another tool to use.[/quote]

Players are graded by every snap they take via coaches film through 3 levels (the last being graded by former NFL/NCAA players or coaches) So say I grade a game by Haskins Sunday night, that gets looked over by a reviewer (former coach) then the final step is always Bruce Gradkowski who is our QB guy.

All 32 teams use the grading system and all D1 Power 5 schools as well

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1239332]We don't look at stats while grading players, I can see how you would think its nonsense and fake but his grades are 17th in that span due to his QB Grades. Every throw is graded and say he has a game with 5 drops (he did) that doesn't hurt him but the completion % doesn't take that into consideration.[/quote]

Do the grades take sacks into consideration? Those are drive killers and most are on Haskins for holding the ball too long. Also every QB has drops. In fact his completion % should be lower if he would throw the ball away instead of taking sacks. What about his 137 net yards a game?

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[QUOTE=Buffalo Bob;1239327]I would be interested how they use fun with numbers to come up with that as he is on the bottom or close to it in most all statistical categories.

In his 5 starts he has completed 55% of his passes, been sacked 22 times and averages 137 net passing yards a game and PFF claims that grades out as average? You can't be serious, utter nonsense.[/QUOTE]

[url]https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb/2019[/url]

DVOA and DYAR aren't the be all end all but I really like them because they account for more factors than most metrics and are 100% empirical.

AND both are adjusted for opponent.

They do not have a subjective component like QBR.

Haskins is dead last in both in DYAR by a huge margin and tied for last in DVOA with Josh Rosen.

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Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=Buffalo Bob;1239334]Do the grades take sacks into consideration? Those are drive killers and most are on Haskins for holding the ball too long. Also every QB has drops. In fact his completion % should be lower if he would throw the ball away instead of taking sacks. What about his 137 net yards a game?[/quote]

Yes , if he has a clean pocket through his progression and still gets sacked that's a negative grade on him. Clean pocket for us consist of if he can get to his 2nd read, if he's hit before that 2nd read it's not a negative grade just given a 0 for the play.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[QUOTE=skinsfaninok;1239333]Players are graded by every snap they take via coaches film through 3 levels (the last being graded by former NFL/NCAA players or coaches) So say I grade a game by Haskins Sunday night, that gets looked over by a reviewer (former coach) then the final step is always Bruce Gradkowski who is our QB guy.



All 32 teams use the grading system and all D1 Power 5 schools as well[/QUOTE]How do all 32 teams use the grading system?

Specifically, how do the Redskins use the grading system?

And what evidence do you have to support that statement?




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Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1239336]Yes , if he has a clean pocket through his progression and still gets sacked that's a negative grade on him. Clean pocket for us consist of if he can get to his 2nd read, if he's hit before that 2nd read it's not a negative grade just given a 0 for the play.[/quote]

Is each play graded on a 1 to 10 based on certain criteria?

How did you go about getting this job? Not saying you're not qualified or anything, just pretty interesting we have a Warpather working for a major NFL grading/scouting company.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1239338]Is each play graded on a 1 to 10 based on certain criteria?

How did you go about getting this job? Not saying you're not qualified or anything, just pretty interesting we have a Warpather working for a major NFL grading/scouting company.[/quote]

[url]https://www.pff.com/news/pro-how-pff-grades-quarterback-play[/url]

As for the job process you have a 6 month training process to go through, and that's if you pass their pre test. 90% Of my work is QB charting / Coverage grading , I played QB in HS and helped coach a my school afterwards before joining the army so I've always wanted to work in the industry. They usually have a hiring process in the Off/season if they have any slots available.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1239336]Yes , if he has a clean pocket through his progression and still gets sacked that's a negative grade on him. Clean pocket for us consist of if he can get to his 2nd read, if he's hit before that 2nd read it's not a negative grade just given a 0 for the play.[/quote]

Does technique effect grades? If he throws off his back foot or side arms a pass when not under dress, does that matter? I am sure the grading systems have changed a lot in the 40 years that have passed since I played in High School and College. Proper technique was a big part of your grade where I came from, an O-lineman could pancake the dude he was run blocking, but if his head was on the wrong side of the defender and his foot work wasn't right he would get a 50 out of 100% for that play. The actual end result of the play was only half the grade. On the flip side you could have been the dude getting pancaked and still get a 50 if you did everything right other than getting over powered and knocked on your ass.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1239339][url]https://www.pff.com/news/pro-how-pff-grades-quarterback-play[/url]

As for the job process you have a 6 month training process to go through, and that's if you pass their pre test. 90% Of my work is QB charting / Coverage grading ,[B] I played QB in HS[/B] and helped coach a my school afterwards before joining the army so I've always wanted to work in the industry. They usually have a hiring process in the Off/season if they have any slots available.[/quote]

Were you any good or did you get to play QB because your dad was a wealthy businessman and bought the whole team nice new helmets? Over 40 years and I still hate that kid.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

PFF Is real big on the analytics of course, I'm actually more of the old school football and don't always agree with everything we put out there, for instance saying Duck Hodges is better than Josh Allen... I disagree but overall its a cool place to contribute too and I've met and been trained by some awesome coaches/players.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=Buffalo Bob;1239341]Were you any good or did you get to play QB because your dad was a wealthy businessman and bought the whole team nice new helmets? Over 40 years and I still hate that kid.[/quote]

I was the backup mostly due to the kid u just mentioned lol, I wish I had money growing up. I played more basketball actually which is also a big passion of mine just not as big as our Skins for some crazy reason

The Haskins Threat
 

[QUOTE=skinsfaninok;1239332]We don't look at stats while grading players, I can see how you would think its nonsense and fake but his grades are 17th in that span due to his QB Grades. Every throw is graded and say he has a game with 5 drops (he did) that doesn't hurt him but the completion % doesn't take that into consideration.[/QUOTE]



I do not give a rats ass if you guys grade him 17. Lol. What isn’t taken into consideration is making the right reads, or footwork / technique. Choosing when to run not pass. Etc. Not just pff but any grading system . Yes over the course of years the stats become a measurement of success overall, but in such a small handful of games i think pff is pretty meaningless.
And that is awesome Okie. Awesome gig. Good for you. Who is the spoiled rich kid you n Buffalo are referring to?

The Haskins Threat
 

[QUOTE=DYoungJelly;1239335][url]https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb/2019[/url]

DVOA and DYAR aren't the be all end all but I really like them because they account for more factors than most metrics and are 100% empirical.

AND both are adjusted for opponent.

They do not have a subjective component like QBR.

Haskins is dead last in both in DYAR by a huge margin and tied for last in DVOA with Josh Rosen.

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This is pretty freakin awful. There are some terrible quarterbacks ranked ahead of him.
I don’t understand what it all means like you guys, but it appears he is not only dead last but dead last by a country mile.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1239343]I was the backup mostly due to the kid u just mentioned lol, I wish I had money growing up. I played more basketball actually which is also a big passion of mine just not as big as our Skins for some crazy reason[/quote]

I was also a QB in high school, very close to where Dh played in high school. My coach coached in Mo. County for a LONG time. I am no expert and don't watch film on the guy, but from the naked eye he just doesn't look the part at all. I have never seen a QB with off the charts raw talent throw the ball with as bad a footwork. It's crazy. When watching him on film is there anything that he does well? He really should have stayed in school.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1239336]Yes , if he has a clean pocket through his progression and still gets sacked that's a negative grade on him. Clean pocket for us consist of if he can get to his 2nd read, if he's hit before that 2nd read it's not a negative grade just given a 0 for the play.[/quote]

If he doesn't have a clean pocket because he slid his protection the wrong way; does Haskins get docked or does the hapless offensive lineman who appears to get beat and looks ridiculous?

What process do the PFF evaluators go through to determine scheme responsibility?

Haskins has been sacked 26 times in 160 attempts.

Keenum was sacked 12 times in 188 attempts.

[url]https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/passing-plays-attempted[/url]

[url]https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/passing-plays-sacked[/url]

Maybe if somebody shared Haskins' PFF grades with the Oline they would have had a different reaction on the sidelines.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=punch it in;1239355]I do not give a rats ass if you guys grade him 17. Lol. What isn’t taken into consideration is making the right reads, or footwork / technique. Choosing when to run not pass. Etc. Not just pff but any grading system . Yes over the course of years the stats become a measurement of success overall, but in such a small handful of games i think pff is pretty meaningless.
And that is awesome Okie. Awesome gig. Good for you. [B]Who is the spoiled rich kid you n Buffalo are referring to[/B]?[/quote]

I think we are referring to different ones, just that a rich kid can get preferential treatment from a coach in High School if his parents have some influence over a program. My case was back in the 70's where I grew up in So Cal. Our QB sucked, he was our weak link. His dad bought our team a lot of new equipment so he was pretty much the QB for 3 years, no questions asked. I don't think he ever had a 100 yard passing game.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=DYoungJelly;1239358]If he doesn't have a clean pocket because he slid his protection the wrong way; does Haskins get docked or does the hapless offensive lineman who appears to get beat and looks ridiculous?

What process do the PFF evaluators go through to determine scheme responsibility?

Haskins has been sacked 26 times in 160 attempts.

Keenum was sacked 12 times in 188 attempts.

[url]https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/passing-plays-attempted[/url]

[url]https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/passing-plays-sacked[/url]

Maybe if somebody shared Haskins' PFF grades with the Oline they would have had a different reaction on the sidelines.[/quote]

All great Questions, the OL is graded on a separate scale but by player basis not group grades. As for the blocking schemes I do not look at those, the OL/DL staff does all of that fun stuff so I couldn't give a good answer on that.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=Buffalo Bob;1239359]I think we are referring to different ones, just that a rich kid can get preferential treatment from a coach in High School if his parents have some influence over a program. My case was back in the 70's where I grew up in So Cal. Our QB sucked, he was our weak link. His dad bought our team a lot of new equipment so he was pretty much the QB for 3 years, no questions asked. I don't think he ever had a 100 yard passing game.[/quote]

Yeah not referring to one kid specifically, I played HS ball in Norman Ok where we get a ton of OU coaches kids playing football.. Very political

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1239357]I was also a QB in high school, very close to where Dh played in high school. My coach coached in Mo. County for a LONG time. I am no expert and don't watch film on the guy, but from the naked eye he just doesn't look the part at all. I have never seen a QB with off the charts raw talent throw the ball with as bad a footwork. It's crazy. When watching him on film is there anything that he does well? He really should have stayed in school.[/quote]

Agree and the crazy part is his personal QB coach is Quincy Avery who is regarded as the best in the country. So not sure what's going on with him.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=punch it in;1239355]I do not give a rats ass if you guys grade him 17. Lol. What isn’t taken into consideration is making the right reads, or footwork / technique. Choosing when to run not pass. Etc. Not just pff but any grading system . Yes over the course of years the stats become a measurement of success overall, but in such a small handful of games i think pff is pretty meaningless.
And that is awesome Okie. Awesome gig. Good for you. Who is the spoiled rich kid you n Buffalo are referring to?[/quote]

No doubt my man, again I'm not saying PFF is 100% correct on all things football.. They are all humans and to be honest with you everyone on this site is very knowledgeable in football and could work there too.. It's a cool job and I love it but I also love football in general as I also coach here in NY. Some of the guys at PFF get too crazy on the analytics side and computer bullshit, I'm the old school guy that says you have to rely on what the hell u see on the field before you worry about stats and computers. As for Haskins, yeah he has sucked mostly this yr and it's discouraging but lets give him another year to learn and grow

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1239361]All great Questions, the OL is graded on a separate scale but by player basis not group grades. As for the blocking schemes I do not look at those, the OL/DL staff does all of that fun stuff so I couldn't give a good answer on that.[/quote]

The PFF grade for an Olineman would not account for him being put in a losing situation by his QB calling the wrong protections?

AND

The QB PFF grade would not account for the QB calling the wrong protections resulting in a "dirty" pocket?

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

I'm a huge fan of the metrics at FootballOutsiders but they have flaws also.

I emailed them either last season or the season before asking for more details on what is and isn't measured in their Oline adjusted line yards metric.

The purpose of the email was to see if all the blown blocks by our TE unit was attributed to the terrible ranking of the Oline in the run game.

They emailed back and said it's all numbers, no subjectivity and that the units weren't distinguished.

So, in theory we may have had a much better Oline in the running game than that metric indicated. We might have been brought down by the TE group and Fat Rob hitting the wrong hole, but every other team was measured the exact same way.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=DYoungJelly;1239366]I'm a huge fan of the metrics at FootballOutsiders but they have flaws also.

I emailed them either last season or the season before asking for more details on what is and isn't measured in their Oline adjusted line yards metric.

The purpose of the email was to see if all the blown blocks by our TE unit was attributed to the terrible ranking of the Oline in the run game.

They emailed back and said it's all numbers, no subjectivity and that the units weren't distinguished.

So, in theory we may have had a much better Oline in the running game than that metric indicated. We might have been brought down by the TE group and Fat Rob hitting the wrong hole, but every other team was measured the exact same way.[/quote]

Football outsiders Oline metric is good with the overall unit on run game, but their pass protection measure is horseshit.

But agree with on qb calling wrong protection and also as Cooley and Sheehan have kinda pointed out, does the graders at PFF understand proper assignments of olinemen, defensive secondary and Linebackers?

It’s not a perfect science...but I think PFF is getting better at what they do.

I think the biggest thing we have to remember with players, performance...man, the coaching scheme matters a lot. Also, naturally talented athletes and players can lift an entire unit because opposing coaches have to over compensate minimize the impact of the higher talented player.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[quote=Chico23231;1239369]Football outsiders Oline metric is good with the overall unit on run game, but their pass protection measure is horseshit.

But agree with on qb calling wrong protection and also as Cooley and Sheehan have kinda pointed out, does the graders at PFF understand proper assignments of olinemen, [B]defensive secondary and Linebackers?
[/B]
It’s not a perfect science...but I think PFF is getting better at what they do.

I think the biggest thing we have to remember with players, performance...man, the coaching scheme matters a lot. Also, naturally talented athletes and players can lift an entire unit because opposing coaches have to over compensate minimize the impact of the higher talented player.[/quote]

This part is a yes, all overages / schemes are charted every game.

Re: The Haskins Threat
 

[QUOTE=skinsfaninok;1239364]No doubt my man, again I'm not saying PFF is 100% correct on all things football.. They are all humans and to be honest with you everyone on this site is very knowledgeable in football and could work there too.. It's a cool job and I love it but I also love football in general as I also coach here in NY. Some of the guys at PFF get too crazy on the analytics side and computer bullshit, I'm the old school guy that says you have to rely on what the hell u see on the field before you worry about stats and computers. As for Haskins, yeah he has sucked mostly this yr and it's discouraging but lets give him another year to learn and grow[/QUOTE]



You don’t give yourself enough credit. Lol. I can only speak for myself but i could never do what you do. Very cool stuff. And no doubt Haskins gets a full off season and season to prove himself. But his play this year is alarmingly awful - even for someone in his position with his experience- imo.