Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1002736]Just when I thought it was safe to take you off the ignore lists .

I may not have a brilliant football mind. However, compared to the pearls of wisdom that you spew forth, from your "[B]I have a friend in the oil business in Denver[/B]", to your inability understand the role of the read option in the Skins offense, to your Gaffney man-crush and incessant and obtuse belief that Garcon was a mistake, I am a f'ing football savant.

but back to the numbers.

In 2013, Garcon's YAC was 6.77 and Wallace's was 4.2. 60% of Garcon's catches went for first downs compared to 52% for Wallace.

On top of that, Garcon has consistently been cited for bringing a toughness to the WR core and transforming its attitude. Wallace? Tell me when anyone has said that of Wallace.

Back to the ignore list for you.[/quote]

awww man, I totally forgot about that classic

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

What ever happened to "Cause' I said so!"
......you guys

Now Hog1 ... Have I ever used four words where 200 would suffice?

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=The Goat;1002592]To bring the discussion back to fact over fiction:

[url=http://www.nfl.com/player/pierregarcon/2346/gamelogs]Pierre Garcon: Game Logs at NFL.com[/url]

[url=http://www.nfl.com/player/santanamoss/2504743/profile]Santana Moss, WR for the Washington Redskins at NFL.com[/url]

Tana had twice as many TDs as Garcon though he was targeted...less. Garcon made little to no impact is several games (outside the ones he missed completely), getting yardage in junk minutes but otherwise being very quiet.

Again, hopefully this is the year he puts together a season anywhere near worthy of his contract.[/quote]

Because it is applicable to just about everything you say about anything:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY[/ame]

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[url=http://www.csnwashington.com/football-washington-redskins/talk/how-will-redskins-pay-their-draft-picks]How will the Redskins pay their draft picks? | CSN Washington[/url]

Nice read.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=NYCskinfan82;1002869][url=http://www.csnwashington.com/football-washington-redskins/talk/how-will-redskins-pay-their-draft-picks]How will the Redskins pay their draft picks? | CSN Washington[/url]

Nice read.[/quote]

Wow, that is a nice read. I was wondering what kind of moves we were going to have to make to clear room for our draft picks , and he explained it well.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1002737]maybe when you see the offensive guys putting everything on the line, hurt foot/shoulder and all, the defensive guys step up for respected teammates:food-smil[/quote]
What I was getting at, is the offensive production wasn't hugely different over the course of the season, with or without Garcon. I remember somebody posting or linking PPG stats and the offense was impressively consistent overall. The defense improved markedly in the 2nd half though, just in time for Garcon's return to the regular lineup :)

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

The offense's productivity, and particularly the passing game, was markedly higher with Garcon than without him. Based on a review of the game by game stats from last year:

[I]With Garcon:[/I]
Points per Game: 25.44
Yards/play: 6.45
Yards/passing play: 8.91

[I]Without Garcon:[/I]
Points per Game: 24.14
Yards/play: 5.83
Yards/passing play: 6.56

We ran 440 passing plays last year. Over the course of a season, the difference provided by Garcon (8.9/play v. 6.6/play) accounts for ~1000 yards in the passing game.

Over the course of a season, the difference in terms of points with Garcon is almost 3 TD's (20.8). Not huge, but significant in terms of close games -- 20 additional points is 20 additional points. Basically, its a 5% difference in scoring.

[B]Further[/B], in games Garcon played, he was consistently the leading receiving threat whereas, in games he did not play, no single receiver consistently led the team AND, in those seven games, a tight-end was the leader in receiving yards FOUR times (Paulson - yes, that's right PAULSON - was the leading yardage guy twice).

Garcon was the leading receiver in 7 of the 9 games he played. In the seven games he was the leading receiver, he finished with more than 80 yards 5 times and the only time he led with less than 50 yards was in the final game against Dallas where we passed for only 87 yards total - 46 of which were to Garcon.

In the games Garcon didn't play, no receiver broke 100 yards. F. Davis had 90 off 7 catches in week 3 and Paulson 76 on 4 catches week 8. In non-Garcon games, when a wide receiver [I]was[/I] the leading receiver, none topped 50 yards. In the seven non-Garcon games, Moss was the leading receiver once with 46 yards and Morgan twice with 46 & 50 yards.

If you throw out the two games Garcon played injured at less than 100%(Atlanta, first Philly game), the numbers are even more scewed in favor of Garcon as a difference maker.

In this offense, Garcon is a difference maker. He is a focal point and spark. To argue that any other receiver currently on the roster could have the effect Garcon has when healthy is idiotic, obtuse and Goat-like.

If he fully recovers, and plays a full or near full schedule (other than his rookie year, this is the first time he has played less than 14 games), he will easily be one the top offensive producers in the game. Based on his production over the last 7 games, I am hopeful that he will make a complete recovery.

Stepping away from the stat sheet now ...

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;1002893]The offense's productivity, and particularly the passing game, was markedly higher with Garcon than without him. Based on a review of the game by game stats from last year:

[I]With Garcon:[/I]
Points per Game: 25.44
Yards/play: 6.45
Yards/passing play: 8.91

[I]Without Garcon:[/I]
Points per Game: 24.14
Yards/play: 5.83
Yards/passing play: 6.56

We ran 440 passing plays last year. Over the course of a season, the difference provided by Garcon (8.9/play v. 6.6/play) accounts for ~1000 yards in the passing game.

Over the course of a season, the difference in terms of points with Garcon is almost 3 TD's (20.8). Not huge, but significant in terms of close games -- 20 additional points is 20 additional points. Basically, its a 5% difference in scoring.

[B]Further[/B], in games Garcon played, he was consistently the leading receiving threat whereas, in games he did not play, no single receiver consistently led the team AND, in those seven games, a tight-end was the leader in receiving yards (Paulson - yes, that's right PAULSON - was the leading yardage guy twice).

Garcon was the leading receiver in 7 of the 9 games he played. In the seven games he was the leading receiver, he finished with more than 80 yards 5 times and the only time he led with less than 50 yards was in the final game against Dallas where we passed for only 87 yards total - 46 of which were to Garcon.

In the games Garcon didn't play, no receiver broke 100 yards. F. Davis had 90 off 7 catches in week 3 and Paulson 76 on 4 catches week 8. In non-Garcon games, when a wide receiver [I]was[/I] the leading receiver, none topped 50 yards. In the seven non-Garcon games, Moss was the leading receiver once with 46 yards and Morgan twice with 46 & 50 yards.

If you throw out the two games Garcon played injured at less than 100%(Atlanta, first Philly game), the numbers are even more scewed in favor of Garcon as a difference maker.

In this offense, Garcon is a difference maker. He is a focal point and spark. To argue that any other receiver currently on the roster could have the effect Garcon has when healthy is idiotic, obtuse and Goat-like.

If he fully recovers, and plays a full or near full schedule (other than his rookie year, this is the first time he has played less than 14 games), he will easily be one the top offensive producers in the game. Based on his production over the last 7 games, I am hopeful that he will make a complete recovery.

Stepping away from the stat sheet now ...[/QUOTE]

And many questioned his signing

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1002893]The offense's productivity, and particularly the passing game, was markedly higher with Garcon than without him. Based on a review of the game by game stats from last year:

[I]With Garcon:[/I]
Points per Game: 25.44
Yards/play: 6.45
Yards/passing play: 8.91

[I]Without Garcon:[/I]
Points per Game: 24.14
Yards/play: 5.83
Yards/passing play: 6.56

We ran 440 passing plays last year. Over the course of a season, the difference provided by Garcon (8.9/play v. 6.6/play) accounts for ~1000 yards in the passing game.

Over the course of a season, the difference in terms of points with Garcon is almost 3 TD's (20.8). Not huge, but significant in terms of close games -- 20 additional points is 20 additional points. Basically, its a 5% difference in scoring.

[B]Further[/B], in games Garcon played, he was consistently the leading receiving threat whereas, in games he did not play, no single receiver consistently led the team AND, in those seven games, a tight-end was the leader in receiving yards (Paulson - yes, that's right PAULSON - was the leading yardage guy twice).

Garcon was the leading receiver in 7 of the 9 games he played. In the seven games he was the leading receiver, he finished with more than 80 yards 5 times and the only time he led with less than 50 yards was in the final game against Dallas where we passed for only 87 yards total - 46 of which were to Garcon.

In the games Garcon didn't play, no receiver broke 100 yards. F. Davis had 90 off 7 catches in week 3 and Paulson 76 on 4 catches week 8. In non-Garcon games, when a wide receiver [I]was[/I] the leading receiver, none topped 50 yards. In the seven non-Garcon games, Moss was the leading receiver once with 46 yards and Morgan twice with 46 & 50 yards.

If you throw out the two games Garcon played injured at less than 100%(Atlanta, first Philly game), the numbers are even more scewed in favor of Garcon as a difference maker.

In this offense, Garcon is a difference maker. He is a focal point and spark. To argue that any other receiver currently on the roster could have the effect Garcon has when healthy is idiotic, obtuse and Goat-like.

If he fully recovers, and plays a full or near full schedule (other than his rookie year, this is the first time he has played less than 14 games), he will easily be one the top offensive producers in the game. Based on his production over the last 7 games, I am hopeful that he will make a complete recovery.

Stepping away from the stat sheet now ...[/quote]

Excellent work there, Joe.

[QUOTE=skinsfaninok;1002894]And many questioned his signing[/QUOTE]

At least one here still does.

Oh, by the way, Jabar Gaffney's 2012 stats? 4 receptions, 68 yards. Now there's an impact player!

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

One point difference is markedly higher? As a contrast, the defense limited opponents to several points less in the 2nd half of the season compared to the 1st half, which was my whole point to begin with. Someone posted or linked those stats too after the season, it was a stark contrast. Again, and for the last time, Garcon began suiting up when the defense improved and that explains the wins/losses by a wide margin.

Garcon was the leading receiver in games played because he was targeted often. Simple as that. But he still didn't produce a lot given the targets. Again, it's in the numbers. Tana scored twice as many TDs on fewer receptions. And as the season wore on Garcon was quiet for long stretches.

The legend of Garcon as an elite WR, though hasn't broke 1000 yards with arguably the greatest QB in history throwing to him, is reaching epic proportions in Redskins history. Well, really just among a moron or two.

To the best of my memory, Gaffney was out on a drug thing last year that our FO knew about way before we did, and presumably let him walk because of it. Also to the best of my memory, Garcon hasn't ever produced a better season than Gaffney's last with us. Again, and for the last time, the forest through the trees picture is that Garcon is eating up an enormous amount of cap space and has yet to prove he's worth it. Saying otherwise is just idiocy.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

Garcon accounted for 7.5% of our cap space last year.

Preliminarily, the average points per game previously given is skewed b/c in games Garcon played, the defense scored no points while it scored 21 in games he did not play. Thus, the actual average points per game [I]by the offense[/I] without Garcon was 21.14, over the course of the season that is a difference of ~ 70 points.

Thus, when Garcon was in the game:
The offense scored 20.3% more points;
The offense produced 10.6% more yards; and
The passing game produced 36% more yardage.

Further, when playing, Garcon accounted for 35% of the receiving yards produced in the passing game. As to the total yardage amassed over the year, Garcon accounted for 17.5% of the receiving yards and 9% of the total offensive yards produced.

All of those numbers appear to be greater than 7.5%.

As to his, not "producing given lots of targets", of Hankerson, Morgan, Moss and Garcon. Garcon had the highest average yards/target last year: 9.45 (67 targets); Moss was close at 9.39 (61 targets). Davis (31 targets), Paul (15)and Robinson (19) had slightly higher per target yards but also had significantly less targets. Despite being targeted only six fewer times than Garcon, Moss only had one game with more than 70 yards and averaged only 35 yards/game. On the other hand, Garcon had five games over 80 yards (Two 100+ yard games) and averaged 70 yards/game (take out his two "injury" games and it shoots up to 89 yards/game). On YAC, Garcon was the clear leader - 6.7/catch. Moss was 5.5./catch. No one else was is even in the ballpark.

Your statement that "Garcon was the leading receiver in games played because he was targeted often" as somehow either bolstering your argument or refuting mine is nonsensical and, as with many of your assertions, illogical. By all statistical measures save touchdowns, when he was on the field, Garcon was the best receiver and, thus, was legitimately the primary target. Your assertion that Garcon got his yards in junk minutes is just stupid and you need to show me something to prove it. Here's what I remember about his "junk minutes":

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af7QfugJFlM]Pierre Garcon 2012 Highlights "DC or Nothing" - YouTube[/ame]

Did he score less TD's than Moss. Yup. However, comparing the "with Garcon offense" to the "without Garcon" offense, your assertion that:

[quote=The Goat;1002881][T]he offensive production wasn't hugely different over the course of the season, with or without Garcon.[/quote]

is, simply:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY]Dr Cox - Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong - YouTube[/ame]

And, since you wish only to look at individual scoring without doing any delving into the numbers behind the scoring (with the implicit assertion that point production is the only legitimate bottom line), I suggest the REAL bottom line is wins and losses:

With Garcon: 8-1
Without Garcon: 2-5

Whether the defense played better or not, when Garcon was on the field the Skins won. When he was not, they lost.

In terms of win percentage, offensive scoring, total offensive yardage produced and yardage produced in the passing game, Garcon's impact on the offense easily exceeded the 7.5% of the cap space dedicated to him. As usual, and in any way relevant to actual factual information or logical thought, you are wrong. <cue Dr. Cox>

Finally, I am not asserting that Garcon [I]is[/I] an elite receiver. While I believe he certainly has the potential to be so, elite status is something that is earned with consistent production. Regardless, it is clear to me that, for this offense, Garcon is a game changer and, if he stays healthy, was well worth the money spent.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

You dont need stats to see the offense was simply much better when Garcon was on the field. If you didnt see it, you werent watching.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=Chico23231;1002933]You dont need stats to see the offense was simply much better when Garcon was on the field. If you didnt see it, you werent watching.[/quote]

This.