Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;569593]I understand your point, I just hope the American people keep screaming loud enough that the Blue Dogs in the House or enough moderate Senators stop this thing.[/quote]

They probably will, but that is the real reason that this must be passed now, any talk of a crisis is just smoke to pacify the media/middle of the road voters.

Re: Obama Care
 

A local blogger in my area, I don't always agree with him but he always raises interesting points

[url=http://blog.timesunion.com/funiciello/we-have-talked-this-problem-to-death/337/]“We Have Talked The Problem To Death.” - Matt Funiciello - timesunion.com - Albany NY[/url]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Mattyk72;569607]A local blogger in my area, I don't always agree with him but he always raises interesting points

[URL="http://blog.timesunion.com/funiciello/we-have-talked-this-problem-to-death/337/"]“We Have Talked The Problem To Death.” - Matt Funiciello - timesunion.com - Albany NY[/URL][/quote]

Good read!

Re: Obama Care
 

In a way, Republicans share much of the blame for this legislation. Many of the arguments they are making right now against nationalized health care, are issues they could have addressed when they had complete power. Remember, for six years they had the House, they had the Senate, the Presidency, and they had a majority on the Supreme Court.

What did they do to address the issue of rising health care costs? Nothing. In fact, during the Bush Administration, I seem to [URL="http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/executive/2003-12-23-canada-drugs_x.htm"]remember[/URL] the issue of "allowing" American citizens to buy prescription drugs from Canada because they are cheaper. The GOP stood in the way of this because they argued that without the protection of the FDA, the U.S. government couldn't guarantee the safety of Canadian drugs. This was nanny-statism at it's very finest, and the Republicans are guilty of this just as much as Democrats depending on the issue.

Granted, they didn't have that critical 100 seat majority in the Senate, which according to apologists for the GOP, was vital to be able to get anything done. At the very least, couldn't someone in the Republican Party introduced legislation to make health care costs for individuals tax deductable the way they are for employers? That's one of the best retorts against any argument for nationalized health care today. But why didn't anyone have the forsight to attempt this when they had the chance?

That's why I have no love for the Republicans. It's always a day late and a dollar short for these guys. Just like last year with skyrocketing gas prices, they had complete control of everything for six years to make a serious push for domestic gas drilling -- yet we heard nothing from them on that issue when they had the power to do something about it. We're seeing the same thing with health care. Didn't anyone realize that this was going to be a major issue for the Democrats when the gavel came back into their hands? Couldn't the Republicans have done [I]something[/I] to try to put out this fire before it got out of hand?

Re: Obama Care
 

John Stossel gives nationalized healthcare another [URL="http://www.reason.com/news/show/134987.html"]smackdown[/URL].

[quote]A handful of people who probably never even ran a small business actually think they can reinvent the health care system ... Politicians and bureaucrats clearly have no idea how complicated markets are. Every day people make countless tradeoffs, in all areas of life, based on subjective value judgments and personal information as they delicately balance their interests, needs and wants. Who is in a better position than they to tailor those choices to best serve their purposes? Yet the politicians believe they can plan the medical market the way you plan a birthday party.[/quote]

[quote]The administration estimates $1.5 trillion over 10 years with no increase in the deficit. But no one should take that seriously. When it comes to projecting future costs, these guys may as well be reading chicken entrails. In 1965, hospitalization coverage under Medicare was projected to cost $9 billion by 1990. The actual price tag was $66 billion.[/quote]

Re: Obama Care
 

Let me get this straight.

We're going to pass a health care plan
written by a committee whose head says he doesn't understand it,
passed by a Congress that hasn't read it but exempts themselves from it,
signed by a president that also hasn't read it, and who smokes,
with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes,
overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and
financed by a country that's bankrupt.

What possibly could go wrong?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;609499]Let me get this straight.

We're going to pass a health care plan
written by a committee whose head says he doesn't understand it,
passed by a Congress that hasn't read it but exempts themselves from it,
signed by a president that also hasn't read it, and who smokes,
with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes,
overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and
financed by a country that's bankrupt.

What possibly could go wrong?[/quote]

If it wasn't 3 paragraphs, I would add this to my sig! Classic

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;609499]Let me get this straight.

We're going to pass a health care plan
written by a committee whose head says he doesn't understand it,
passed by a Congress that hasn't read it but exempts themselves from it,
signed by a president that also hasn't read it, and who smokes,
with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes,
overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and
financed by a country that's bankrupt.

What possibly could go wrong?[/quote]

That should be a bumper sticker or a t-shirt at the least...then again, can't go against Obama, the cult would be in an uproar!
Why others can't see the problems with this makes me scratch my head.
Great post firstdown.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;569583]If they push through bad legislation, they will likely lose control of Congress in 2010, and possibly [B]the White[/B] [B]House in 2012[/B].[/quote]
to steal a line from Saden, who do they have that could beat lord Obama?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;609499]Let me get this straight.

We're going to pass a health care plan
written by a committee whose head says he doesn't understand it,
passed by a Congress that hasn't read it but exempts themselves from it,
signed by a president that also hasn't read it, and who smokes,
with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes,
overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and
financed by a country that's bankrupt.

What possibly could go wrong?[/quote]

I should have know from the lack of spelling errors that this post was plagiarized:
[IMG]http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s274/gmscud/healthcare.jpg[/IMG]
[SIZE=5][COLOR=black][COLOR=black]Let me get this straight.. We're going to pass a health care plan written by a committee whose head says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that hasn't read it but exempts themselves from it, signed by a president that also hasn't read it, and who smokes, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's nearly broke. [/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5]What possibly could go wrong[COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy]?[/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GMScud;612463]I should have know from the lack of spelling errors that this post was plagiarized:
[IMG]http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s274/gmscud/healthcare.jpg[/IMG]
[SIZE=5][COLOR=black][COLOR=black]Let me get this straight.. We're going to pass a health care plan written by a committee whose head says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that hasn't read it but exempts themselves from it, signed by a president that also hasn't read it, and who smokes, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's nearly broke. [/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5]What possibly could go wrong[COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy]?[/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/quote]

I thought that I stated that I did not write that yesterday but for some reason the edit is not there. My bad.

Re: Obama Care
 

Busted. ;)

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;612605]I thought that I stated that I did not write that yesterday but for some reason the edit is not there. My bad.[/quote]

Yeah I wasn't trying to be a dick about it, I just thought it was funny when I received that cartoon in a chain email yesterday. I was like, where have I read that before?? Oh yeah....

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GMScud;612793]Yeah I wasn't trying to be a dick about it, I just thought it was funny when I received that cartoon in a chain email yesterday. I was like, where have I read that before?? Oh yeah....[/quote]
When I first posted that I never even thought people would think I wrote that.

Re: Obama Care
 

Is it just my cynicism or is it quite convenient that this number is reported now:

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091026/ts_nm/us_usa_healthcare_waste]Healthcare system wastes up to $800 billion a year - Yahoo! News[/url]

And also is the implication that somehow federal management would reduce this existing waste? Seems like it's a number thrownout to minimize the additional expense of the HCR.

But I could just be a cynic.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;615367]Is it just my cynicism or is it quite convenient that this number is reported now:

[URL="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091026/ts_nm/us_usa_healthcare_waste"]Healthcare system wastes up to $800 billion a year - Yahoo! News[/URL]

And also is the implication that somehow federal management would reduce this existing waste? Seems like it's a number thrownout to minimize the additional expense of the HCR.

But I could just be a cynic.[/quote]


That is in fact the implication. I've heard anywhere north of $500-$600 billion is the projected figure that Congress believes can be reduced in waste.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;615367]Is it just my cynicism or is it quite convenient that this number is reported now:

[URL="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091026/ts_nm/us_usa_healthcare_waste"]Healthcare system wastes up to $800 billion a year - Yahoo! News[/URL]

And also is the implication that somehow federal management would reduce this existing waste? Seems like it's a number thrownout to minimize the additional expense of the HCR.

But I could just be a cynic.[/quote]

How is the goverment going to fix the waist in health care when they cannot fix the fraud and wast in Medicare. Did anyone see 60 minutes last night on the fraud in medicare.
[URL]http://mensnewsdaily.com/newswax/2009/10/26/cbs-60-minutes-exposes-government-health-care-fraud/[/URL]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;615443]How is the goverment going to fix the waist in health care when they cannot fix the fraud and wast in Medicare. Did anyone see 60 minutes last night on the fraud in medicare.
[URL]http://mensnewsdaily.com/newswax/2009/10/26/cbs-60-minutes-exposes-government-health-care-fraud/[/URL][/quote]

Didn't see the 60 minutes show, but my point, of course, was that any cost that the government adds is in addition to the current waste in the system, not somehow the same number re-stated. So if the CBO expects HCR to cost 850 Billion dollars over 10 years, and the waste in the system is currently 700 Billion yearly, our new waste number is 785Billion (yes all the government's input counts as waste).

That is a lot of waste.

Re: Obama Care
 

Everytime you here them use the word mandate just remember mandate means higher cost or taxes.

Re: Obama Care
 

If I'm going to drive off a cliff, might as well hit the gas and spend as much time in the air as possible.

Yeeeeee haw byatches!

Re: Obama Care
 

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Alinsky]Saul Alinsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url] ... [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward-Piven_Strategy]Cloward–Piven strategy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]..... [url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33728139/ns/business-businessweekcom]Could health care reform lead to hidden taxes? - BusinessWeek.com- msnbc.com[/url] .

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=budw38;621514][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Alinsky]Saul Alinsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url] ... [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward-Piven_Strategy]Cloward–Piven strategy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]..... [url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33728139/ns/business-businessweekcom]Could health care reform lead to hidden taxes? - BusinessWeek.com- msnbc.com[/url] .[/quote]

Actually my guess is that it will lead to quite obvious taxes. I didn't read the article, but I don't think any reasonable analysis would find any way that a 800B to 1.2T increase in government spending could not lead to overt increased taxes.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;621515]Actually my guess is that it will lead to quite obvious taxes. I didn't read the article, but I don't think any reasonable analysis would find any way that a 800B to 1.2T increase in government spending could not lead to overt increased taxes.[/quote]
Good morning CRule . I'm more concerned about the Saul Alinsky/Cloward-Piven " strategy" < provided in links > . I smell a rat . I have to get moving ...... have a great day . * not that I want more taxes , Gov't control of " wealth " .

Re: Obama Care
 

step one passes. on the way to better care for all

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=dmek25;621527]step one passes. on the way to[B][U] better care for all[/U][/B][/quote]


your joking,right?

Re: Obama Care
 

obama really can reach accross party lines, can't he. a big middle finger to obama, the 219 house dems and the lone house rep. for cramming this bullsh*t down america's throat. obamas answer to everything is "let the government run it".

Re: Obama Care
 

cant reach across party lines if everyone says the other side is full of crap. its all about extending ones political career. not for doing the right thing for the people

Re: Obama Care
 

Just like the energy policy we will be paying more. How is this good for America?

Re: Obama Care
 

Pretty simple: The house bill = Increased cost in taxes & premiums for all, decreased quality of care for the vast vast majority to increase care for some.

Does nothing to address the heart of the issue - the natural anti-market forces (see Schneed's earlier posts on duplication of services) created by the health care market; medical malpractice costs driven by a small minority of bad physicians and refusal of physicians to punish other physicians; the regulatory costs of pharmaceutical R&D as opposed to production; and physician shortages.

It will take a few years for the full effects of this to be felt - Probably sometime around the mid 2010's, and it will be the next president that will have to deal with ungodly mess. As to costs, my guess is that premiums will increase by at least 50% over the next 5-6 years, medicare taxes to be doubled, and the floor on the wealth surcharge will be substantially lowered. As to quality of care, longer waiting times for care and decreased quality of service (can't make an appt. on time, TS - "we're to busy, you will have to reschedule for six weeks from now", etc.). All the problems that exist now in healthcare provision but greatly expanded - but, yes, a small minority will get healthcare that need it but do not have it now.

Essentially, Obama care takes the existing system - with all its market inefficiencies - xpands it and, in turn, expands the inefficiencies. Rather than addressing and reforming the root causes of ever expanding healthcare costs as part of plan to create a comprehensive healthcare coverage, Obama care simply creates a mandatory expansion of the existing flawed system by adding a government insurer to expensively operate as an insurer of last resort.

Bad legislation created by hyperbole and scare tactics (on both sides of the aisle) that wasted an opportunity for [I]real [/I]healthcare reform. Horrible leadership all the way around.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=dmek25;621537]cant reach across party lines if everyone says the other side is full of crap. its all about extending ones political career. not for doing the right thing for the people[/quote]
Ummm, if you look at any poll most Americans are against goverment run Health Care. I'm guess if passed this bill will coat me about $1 per page per year in either new taxes or inceased HC cost. I'll also bet that before it ever goes into effect the cost projections will increase to almost double. I sad part is none of these guys have even read to over 2000 pages in this bill and if they say they did I say they lie.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;621563]Ummm, if you look at any poll most Americans are against goverment run Health Care. I'm guess if passed this bill will coat me about $1 per page per year in either new taxes or inceased HC cost. I'll also bet that before it ever goes into effect the cost projections will increase to almost double. I sad part is none of these guys have even read to over 2000 pages in this bill and if they say they did I say they lie.[/quote]

Care to site those polls?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=dmek25;621527]step one passes. on the way to better care for all[/quote]
How can people look at all the failing goverment programs and think that the most complicated one passed will some how get it right. Heck, all they had to do with SS was to cllect the money put it away and when you reach 65 then start paying it back and they Fucked that up to the tune that its going broke. The only good that will come from this bill is that all the libs will have to also live with this poor bill passed by a President that when history looks back will be worse then Bush 2.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;621563]Ummm, are against goverme[B]if you look at any poll most Americans[/B] [B]nt run Health Care[/B]. I'm guess if passed this bill will coat me about $1 per page per year in either new taxes or inceased HC cost. I'll also bet that before it ever goes into effect the cost projections will increase to almost double. I sad part is none of these guys have even read to over 2000 pages in this bill and if they say they did I say they lie.[/quote]
all the people i know are for this. any links?( other then one from fox)

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=dmek25;621527]step one passes. on the way to better care for all[/quote]

Better care for all?? Lol.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;621567]How can people look at all the failing goverment programs and think that the most complicated one passed will some how get it right. Heck, all they had to do with SS was to cllect the money put it away and when you reach 65 then start paying it back and they Fucked that up to the tune that its going broke. The only good that will come from this bill is that all the libs will have to also live with this poor bill passed by a President that when history looks back will be worse then Bush 2.[/quote]
check your history. the GOP was also against medicare. that runs fine. what about the post office? i can mail a letter from Pa., and have in Cal. 3 days later for .50. sounds like a pretty good deal to me. does SS still pay out? last time i checked, it still works. what Gov't programs don't work? other then the no child left behind?

Re: Obama Care
 

Hey I wonder if drinking will now be a pre-existing condition?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;621567]How can people look at all the failing goverment programs and think that the most complicated one passed will some how get it right. Heck, all they had to do with SS was to cllect the money put it away and when you reach 65 then start paying it back and they Fucked that up to the tune that its going broke. The only good that will come from this bill is that all the libs will have to also live with this poor bill passed by a President that when history looks back [B]will be worse then[/B] [B]Bush 2[/B].[/quote]
he has a long way to go before he catches up with that 8 year train wreck

Re: Obama Care
 

Overall, given what you know about them, do you support or oppose the proposed changes
to the health care system being developed by Congress and the Obama Administration?
51% Favor, 49% Oppose (chart)

Do you favor or oppose having a "public option" which would allow individuals to purchase
health insurance coverage from the government?
45% Favor, 31% Oppose
taken from pollster.com

Re: Obama Care
 

What Firstdown alludes to is basically correct.
IF the Fed could be counted on to run....a program lean, mean and efficient, many more would be on the band wagon. The performance of our Govt has become comical in such situations.
The waste and ClusterF...kism will undoubtedly be cataclysmic, yet cloaked in cleverly and luxuriously Spin Doctored success.
Our elected representatives have long since ceased to represent us by repeatedly failing to choose what is in the best interest of the American people.
**What is promised by the Fed is rarely what is recieved........

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=dmek25;621572]check your history. the GOP was also against medicare. that runs fine. what about the post office? i can mail a letter from Pa., and have in Cal. 3 days later for .50. sounds like a pretty good deal to me. does SS still pay out? last time i checked, it still works. what Gov't programs don't work? other then the no child left behind?[/quote]

Medicare runs fine? lol

Your credibility has now taken two stiff shots to the jaw and is on the ropes.