Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Not total but certainly not particularly helpful.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1013636]Not total but certainly not particularly helpful.[/quote]

Not totaly? I have not heard the whole thing but she seemed like the defendants star witness.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1013463]If you get into a fist fight with someone in Florida and the other person dies as a result of injures received during the fight, it is charged as murder!!! If the injuries were not from the fight, then no murder. Zimmerman.. murder.[/quote]

Not if your defending yourself.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

It really is hard to judge when you aren't in the court room to observe the person's demeanor. So much of how we communicate is done through our body language and tone of voice.

I agree that Jeannette was deemed a bad witness at the same time, the picture I got from reading the testimony is that the witnesses are all pretty much in an agreement that Zimmerman was on top of Martin at the end of the fight shortly after the gunshot.

Still, lots of confusion and conflicting testimony on a lot of issues which, of course, is helpful to the defense.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

There's not going to be a proverbial smoking-gun. This whole case has very little hard evidence as it relates to the circumstances of the shooting. Based on testimony I've seen the prosecution's star witness certainly came off like she intended to be less than forthcoming and based on her combative nature on the first day it made it look like she was out for vengeance. I think her testimony ends up helping Zimmerman at the very least by muddling everything up even more.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

I agree with your assessment of the evidence - or, more precisely, the lack thereof. From a practical perspective, however, I think the prosecutor's goal is to create enough circumstantial doubt about Zimmerman's innocence where the jury wants to hear his side of the story and, thus, put Zimmerman in a dilemma of testifying and risking a probably deadly cross or of not testifying and having the jury (despite any instruction not to) use his silence against him.

To that end, the star witness's testimony probably adds to the confusion of a deadly fight and increases the jury's desire for an explanation of what happened from Zimmerman.

Based on the evidence so far, I think the prosecution has a hard row to go - and certainly hasn't shown yet - 2nd degree murder. They may just be trying for manslaughter and count anything else as gravy.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1013662]It really is hard to judge when you aren't in the court room to observe the person's demeanor. So much of how we communicate is done through our body language and tone of voice.

I agree that Jeannette was deemed a bad witness at the same time, the picture I got from reading the testimony is that the witnesses are all pretty much in an agreement that Zimmerman was on top of Martin at the end of the fight shortly [B]after the gunshot[/B].

Still, lots of confusion and conflicting testimony on a lot of issues which, of course, is helpful to the defense.[/quote]

How could that help anyone if it was after the gun shot?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=firstdown;1013680]How could that help anyone if it was after the gun shot?[/quote]

if zimmerman was on top of martin right after the gun shot, it is circumstantial evidence that zimmerman was on top of martin right before the gun shot.

direct evidence that a deer was in a field - witness says he saw a deer in a snowy field.

circumstantial evidence that a deer was in a field - witness says he saw fresh deer tracks in a snowy field.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Just read another witness's testimony. John Good who appears to have had the best "pre-gun shot" view and he clearly places Zimmerman on the ground with Martin in a "ground and pound" MMA position on top of him.

[quote]Good said it seemed like the person on the bottom was yelling for help. Good said he saw the person on top “straddling”the person on the bottom, and the person on top was moving their hands in a downward striking motion that looked like what he called a "ground and pound," a term associated with MMA or mixed-martial arts fighting.

"It looked like that position was a ground-and-pound type position, but I couldn't tell 100% that there were actually fists hitting faces," said Good.

Defense attorney Mark O'Mara asked Good to define the term "ground and pound."

"It's usually when someone is on top in a mounted position, I believe, in the dominant position, but like I said the person on the bottom is able to throw punches back, but I did not see any of that," said Good.[/quote]

Terrible witness for the prosecution.

Really fascinating watching the attorneys work.

Mr. Manalo seemed to be a good D witness.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1013693]Just read another witness's testimony. John Good who appears to have had the best "pre-gun shot" view and he clearly places Zimmerman on the ground with Martin in a "ground and pound" MMA position on top of him.



Terrible witness for the prosecution.[/quote]

Isn't this another witness for the prosecuter.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

^^ Right now the prosecution is putting on its case. They have to call the guy (Good) or the defense will and then it just looks like the prosecutors were hiding him from the jury. You'll notice (1) Prosecutor spent ~1/2 hour on Good's testimony but defense attorney spent 1.5 hours with him; and (2) Also, the prosecutor sandwiched him between Mr. and Mrs. Mannalo who they probably considered better witnesses (although Defense got in a great affirmation: Z's Attorney: "He was breathing hard, he looked like he had just gotten his butt beat", Manalo's response "Yes").

Again, prosecutor spent 20 mins with Mr. Manalo while defense ~ 45.

Have to say, I was not impressed with the "knock, knock" joke in the opening by Defense but they have done a very good job highlighting the evidentiary holes and the conflicting statements from various witnesses.

Also, it seems to me that the prosecutor is consistently asking only those whose testimony is favorable what they saw or said to police - they are letting the defense bring out the good statements in cross. I think that is a mistake.

Prosecutor doesn't have a lot to work with but I'm not sure he is making the most of what he has.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

If yesterday was a bad day for the prosecution, today was REALLY bad. Not sure who they have left. Perhaps forensics to testify about the gunshot and the position of the bodies at the time of the firing?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Here is a list of witnesses so far:

[url=http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2013/6/28/george_zimmerman_wit.html]List of witnesses called in the George Zimmerman trial | Bay News 9[/url]

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Wow. The defense is doing a great job. Prosecutor spends 10 minutes getting some very mundane info from the EMT on the scene (essentially - Q: Was Martin dead? A: Yes; Q: Did Z have head injuries? A: Yes). Then, in five minutes (!!), Zimmerman's attorney has the EMT agree that, based on the injuries she observed, if Zimmerman was on his back, he would be swallowing blood from the nose injury and would reasonably be concerned about concussive or brain injuries.

And then this:

Q: Do you think a person who sustained those types of injuries in the back of their head should be concerned about their medical safety?

A: Possibly

Regardless of the outcome of this case, that's some damn fine lawyering right there - take a mundane fact witness and have them, essentially, create the [I]prima facie[/I] case for your affirmative defense. Do it quickly and pointedly. I am in awe.

Based on this testimony, Zimmerman doesn't need to get on the stand testify that he was reasonably in fear of his life to establish his affirmative defense. Huge. Other witnesses may get more attention ultimately but this one was truly a game changer. On top of that, she was only on the stand for ~25 minutes.

[url=http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/28/questions-still-loom-over-george-zimmerman-trial?hpt=hp_t2]Witness: Zimmerman, Martin in MMA-style fight | HLNtv.com[/url]

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

It's testimony like the EMT's that no one normally hears about that turns cases and has everyone who wasn't in the courtroom going "WTF - how could they rule that way?". Next time you see that happen, don't be so quick to judge the jury as idiots - they hear a ton of sh** nobody else does b/c it's just not sexy testimony. Ten minutes of testimony can drastically alter the outcome of a case.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Haven't watch any, but have read the stuff you all posted. I think its the media that wants to convict Zimmerman. Makes for a better storyline for them.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

joe - i havent had a chance to follow the trial live .. im actually pretty much following it from your synopsis at this point ..... if the jury find for the defense after hearing and considering all the evidence and testimony then i can live with the verdict but .... i hope forensic evidence concludes that martin never had control of the gun and the jury can hang their guilty verdict hat on that bc i dont believe a person should be able to use deadly force on an unarmed person.

either way, one side of this is going to be very upset.

is there a lesser included charge in play? man 2?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

I am just reading the blogger posts from here: [url=http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/28/questions-still-loom-over-george-zimmerman-trial?hpt=hp_t2]Witness: Zimmerman, Martin in MMA-style fight | HLNtv.com[/url]

If you scroll down, you'll see the almost minute by minute posting. Again, a lot of what is happening is getting lost b/c we can't see or hear the witnesses but the blogger seems to be getting the crux of it.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=over the mountain;1013729]joe - i havent had a chance to follow the trial live .. im actually pretty much following it from your synopsis at this point ..... [/quote]

Great. Now JR becomes the WP Legal Analyst.

[quote=over the mountain;1013729]if the jury find for the defense after hearing and considering all the evidence and testimony then i can live with the verdict but ....[/quote]

They will unless they go all OJ. The facts will come out and show that Martin was the aggressor.

[quote=over the mountain;1013729]i hope forensic evidence concludes that martin never had control of the gun and the jury can hang their guilty verdict hat on that bc i dont believe a person should be able to use deadly force on an unarmed person. [/quote]

Just because someone doesn't have a weapon shouldn't stop the use of defensive lethal response. You'd want a gun if Chuck Norris threw down with you.

[quote=over the mountain;1013729]either way, one side of this is going to be very upset.

is there a lesser included charge in play? man 2?[/quote]

Not guilty. Cue the riots.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

oh ... i followed the min by min postings on the first day. was helpful.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Just because someone doesn't have a weapon shouldn't stop the use of defensive lethal response. You'd want a gun if Chuck Norris threw down with you.

---------------------------------------------------

I have a big problem accepting the use of deadly force on an unarmed combatant. Just bc you are losing the fist fight doesnt mean you get to shoot them.

and no the sidewalk or fist doesnt count as a deadly weapon imo.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1013728]Haven't watch any, but have read the stuff you all posted. I think its the media that wants to convict Zimmerman. Makes for a better storyline for them.[/quote]

From a moral judgment standpoint a bunch of stuff matters that doesn't matter in a legal sense and vice-versa. He may not be "guilty" but he almost surely is responsible. That's why something like this is such a big deal media-wise. Responsible and guilty aren't the same thing. The media on the whole feeds the mentality that responsibility = guilt. Same thing happened in the OJ case. The prosecution didn't prove he was guilty. Everyone KNOWS he did it but that doesn't matter.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Zimmerman should be banned from owning or possessing a handgun (Firearm), for life. No more.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=over the mountain;1013729]joe - i havent had a chance to follow the trial live .. im actually pretty much following it from your synopsis at this point ..... if the jury find for the defense after hearing and considering all the evidence and testimony then i can live with the verdict but .... [B]i hope forensic evidence concludes that martin never had control of the gun and the jury can hang their guilty verdict hat on that bc i dont believe a person should be able to use deadly force on an unarmed person. [/B]
either way, one side of this is going to be very upset.

is there a lesser included charge in play? man 2?[/quote]

I have no problem with the use of deadly force if you are being beaten to death. If you're being overpowered, you have the right to defend yourself. [NOTE: If you initiated the fight and are simply losing, no -- deadly force is not okay. Even if you start a fight, the other person doesn't have the right to beat you to death - you can protect yourself but you're right to claim self-defense is severely impaired].

As to the lesser charge, I don't know for sure but would expect manslaughter to be available if they don't find 2nd degree murder. Right now, not sure they even have that.

What they have is: After a verbal confrontation, [I]somehow[/I] a fight started, the two were rolling around and, at some point, Zimmerman is his back with Martin giving him the "ground and pound" while Zimmerman has injuries that could put a reasonable person in fear of their life.

Not sure I would send someone to jail on that.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=over the mountain;1013737]Just because someone doesn't have a weapon shouldn't stop the use of defensive lethal response. You'd want a gun if Chuck Norris threw down with you.

---------------------------------------------------

I have a big problem accepting the use of deadly force on an unarmed combatant. Just bc you are losing the fist fight doesnt mean you get to shoot them.

and no the sidewalk or fist doesnt count as a deadly weapon imo.[/quote]

If an 80 year old is attacked by a teenager I'd like the 80 year old to be armed.

There are a lot of people who can kill with a single punch/kick. More amateurish attempts can take longer to kill, affording the victim the opportunity to fight back without being physically even to the aggressor.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1013740]Zimmerman should be banned from owning or possessing a handgun (Firearm), for life. No more.[/quote]Disagree. If Zimmerman's found not guilty, maybe he should carry more often for his own protection.

SMH if the rest of the trial continues like this, and there are STILL riots if Zimmerman walks.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=FRPLG;1013738]From a moral judgment standpoint a bunch of stuff matters that doesn't matter in a legal sense and vice-versa. He may not be "guilty" but he almost surely is responsible. That's why something like this is such a big deal media-wise. Responsible and guilty aren't the same thing. The media on the whole feeds the mentality that responsibility = guilt. Same thing happened in the OJ case. The prosecution didn't prove he was guilty. Everyone KNOWS he did it but that doesn't matter.[/quote]

How isd Z responsible. If he was attacked BY Trayvon then it Trayvon who is responsible for his own death. I know Z was told to not follow him but just following him does not make him guilty of anything.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1013745]Disagree. If Zimmerman's found not guilty, maybe he should carry more often for his own protection.[/quote]

You make a good point, he'll need security detail for life.

[quote=HailGreen28;1013745]SMH if the rest of the trial continues like this, and there are STILL riots if Zimmerman walks.[/quote]

There will be, the court of popular opinion are against Zimmerman. Just watch Nancy Grace for a sense of how repugnant some of the reporting is. Not while you're eating, obviously.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=over the mountain;1013737]I have a big problem accepting the use of deadly force on an unarmed combatant. [B]Just bc you are losing the fist fight doesnt mean you get to shoot them[/B].[/quote]

I agree. BUT, there is a difference between "losing a fist fight" and fear that you are being beaten to death. You're on the ground, you've had your nose smashed, you're head is being slammed against the concrete and you taste blood in your throat. You've called for help and the person beating you doesn't stop and their is no one there to pull him off. May I please pull a gun now or should I wait until after I lose conscienceness?

I won and lost a few fistfights back in the day - you and I am both know, however, that there is a point where "losing a fist fight" turns into a deadly beat down.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1013733]Great. Now JR becomes the WP Legal Analyst. [/quote]

Not until I am put on retainer.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1013748]There will be, the court of popular opinion are against Zimmerman. Just watch Nancy Grace for a sense of how repugnant some of the reporting is. Not while you're eating, obviously.[/quote]

Even if I am not eating, Nancy Grace makes me lose my breakfest, lunch or dinner.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

According to you guys analysis Zimmerman is sure to walk. The evidence is overwhelmingly in his favor, and there are goigng to be riots!!!?? **Wishful thinking sounds like to me and not analysis** LMAO way out there

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=firstdown;1013746]How isd Z responsible. If he was attacked BY Trayvon then it Trayvon who is responsible for his own death. I know Z was told to not follow him but just following him does not make him guilty of anything.[/quote]

Here's what we KNOW happened. A over-zealous neighborhood watchman followed around someone because he felt he was suspicious. He didn't engage the guy to find out what he was doing in a constructive way (that we know of) rather he acted in a way that created a situation of confrontation. Now TM may have gone too far in his reaction and gave Z a reason to defend himself (who knows) but what we KNOW is that Z should have handled the situation better and then an unarmed teenager wouldn't be dead. Does any of that make him guilty? No. But I am damn sure if it's me in that situation TM doesn't get shot because a more reasonable person doesn't manipulate a situation into being confrontational like that. I think it is hard to see the basic situation any different.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1013743]I have no problem with the use of deadly force if you are being beaten to death. If you're being overpowered, you have the right to defend yourself. [NOTE: If you initiated the fight and are simply losing, no -- deadly force is not okay. Even if you start a fight, the other person doesn't have the right to beat you to death - you can protect yourself but you're right to claim self-defense is severely impaired].

As to the lesser charge, I don't know for sure but would expect manslaughter to be available if they don't find 2nd degree murder. Right now, not sure they even have that.

What they have is: [B]zimmerman following martin, martin telling a friend on the phone that a man is following him and that he is scared,[/B] After a verbal confrontation, [I]somehow[/I] a fight started, the two were rolling around and, at some point, Zimmerman is his back with Martin giving him the "ground and pound" while Zimmerman has injuries that could put a reasonable person in fear of their life.

Not sure I would send someone to jail on that.[/quote]

i think we have slightly more than that. i added some more in bold.

plus, to my knowledge we have 2 eyewitnesses saying they believe the larger person was on top (Z being the larger person in their judgment) and one witness saying he believes the lighter skinned person was on the bottom.

if martin was giving zimmerman the ground and pound so hard that zimmerman was fearing for his life, how did zimmerman manage to unholster his firearm and cleanly discharge it right into martin's chest?

if zimmerman was able to do all they above acts seemingly cleanly, was there no other less deadly alternatives?

if martin was on top of him, id imagine a long struggle for the gun would ensue. . . .

joe - watch the reenactment video zimmerman did for the news a few days after and tell me if his version of events would hold water. just too many leaps of faith imo from what ive seen.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1013752]According to you guys analysis Zimmerman is sure to walk. The evidence is overwhelmingly in his favor, and there are goigng to be riots!!!?? **Wishful thinking sounds like to me and not analysis** LMAO way out there[/quote]

I have an intense dislike of humanity, it never fails to stoop to the idiocy of the lowest common denominator.

We'll see. Remember this thread.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1013757]I have an intense dislike of humanity, it never fails to stoop to the idiocy of the lowest common denominator.

We'll see. Remember this thread.[/quote]

Wait, like your last prediction that Romney was gonna win Pennsylvania, the Presidency, and there would be riots. Remember that one?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=FRPLG;1013738]From a moral judgment standpoint a bunch of stuff matters that doesn't matter in a legal sense and vice-versa. He may not be "guilty" but he almost surely is responsible. That's why something like this is such a big deal media-wise. Responsible and guilty aren't the same thing. The media on the whole feeds the mentality that responsibility = guilt. Same thing happened in the OJ case. The prosecution didn't prove he was guilty. Everyone KNOWS he did it but that doesn't matter.[/quote]

Ultimately, I think both parties are "responsible" for what happened that night. Clearly, each had the opportunity to avoid escalation to a physical brawl. Right now, for me, the only thing I can say for certain is that this was an avoidable tragedy that has had its tragic consequences multiplied by the irresponsible coverage.

Also - Given my willingness to throw down back in the day and the mindless ferocity I approached it with, I am incredibly lucky to be alive and not in jail today.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=over the mountain;1013755]i think we have slightly more than that. i added some more in bold.

plus, to my knowledge we have 2 eyewitnesses saying they believe the larger person was on top (Z being the larger person in their judgment) and one witness saying he believes the lighter skinned person was on the bottom.

if martin was giving zimmerman the ground and pound so hard that zimmerman was fearing for his life, how did zimmerman manage to unholster his firearm and cleanly discharge it right into martin's chest?

if zimmerman was able to do all they above acts seemingly cleanly, was there no other less deadly alternatives?

if martin was on top of him, id imagine a long struggle for the gun would ensue. . . .

joe - watch the reenactment video zimmerman did for the news a few days after and tell me if his version of events would hold water. just too many leaps of faith imo from what ive seen.[/quote]

I agree with this analysis.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=FRPLG;1013753]Here's what we KNOW happened. A over-zealous neighborhood watchman followed around someone because he felt he was suspicious. He didn't engage the guy to find out what he was doing in a constructive way (that we know of) rather he acted in a way that created a situation of confrontation. Now TM may have gone too far in his reaction and gave Z a reason to defend himself (who knows) but what we KNOW is that Z should have handled the situation better and then an unarmed teenager wouldn't be dead. Does any of that make him guilty? No. But I am damn sure if it's me in that situation TM doesn't get shot because a more reasonable person doesn't manipulate a situation into being confrontational like that. I think it is hard to see the basic situation any different.[/quote]

This. 100%.