Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1278897]Watching games and tape did you feel like it was the year he deserved it ?
For me it was like Di Caprio finally getting an Oscar because he deserved it with previous movies, not necessarily with the one he was awarded it on.

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I feel the same way. When he was out 3 games this year, I didnt notice a drop in play or production. Hes played 13, 11 and 8 games past 3 years.

But very high PFF grade and named All Pro .. ill defer to them vs my eye ball test.

Id rather pay BS vs having a Shawn Lauvau situation though where you had an open freeway to the backfield. You couldnt run a playbook with Shawn in there.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1278897]Watching games and tape did you feel like it was the year he deserved it ?
For me it was like Di Caprio finally getting an Oscar because he deserved it with previous movies, not necessarily with the one he was awarded it on.

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PFF gave him his highest graded season, and it wasn't even close really

20 - 84.1
19 - 75.2
18 - 72.5
17 - 79.8
16 - 77.2
15 - 74.6

And generally speaking you just don't luck into an all pro selection or get it because the voters are feeling sentimental, eyes that know a lot more than us saw something pretty damn good from him to give him the all pro nod.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1278891][URL="https://chiefswire.usatoday.com/2021/03/09/kansas-city-chiefs-patrick-mahomes-dallas-cowboys-dak-prescott-contract-comparison/"]Dak Prescott's contract makes Chiefs QB Patrick Mahomes' deal look like a bargain[/URL]

Which deal would you rather have as a player?[/quote]

So Dak's contract has a "record-breaking" 126 million in guarantees, but Mahomes already had a contract with 141 million in guarantees. How is Dak's 126 million in guarantees "record-breaking"?

I guess if you are saying Dak got the better deal because he will be up for [I]another [/I] deal sooner than Mahomes, then I would agree. However, it wasn't a better deal in terms of guarantees and average salary for the course of the deals they signed.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[QUOTE=MTK;1278903]PFF gave him his highest graded season, and it wasn't even close really



20 - 84.1

19 - 75.2

18 - 72.5

17 - 79.8

16 - 77.2

15 - 74.6



And generally speaking you just don't luck into an all pro selection or get it because the voters are feeling sentimental, eyes that know a lot more than us saw something pretty damn good from him to give him the all pro nod.[/QUOTE]I'm not gonna argue that he's very talented, and I'm not saying he was bad this season, but I'd be curious to find Cooley grades cuz IRRC he wasn't praising him as highly as he had before.

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Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;1278905]So Dak's contract has a "record-breaking" 126 million in guarantees, but Mahomes already had a contract with 141 million in guarantees. How is Dak's 126 million in guarantees "record-breaking"?

I guess if you are saying Dak got the better deal because he will be up for [I]another [/I] deal sooner than Mahomes, then I would agree. However, it wasn't a better deal in terms of guarantees and average salary for the course of the deals they signed.[/quote]

[url]https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/patrick-mahomes-21751/[/url]

Mahomes contract is complicated. I dont think I understand it.

63M guaranteed at signing .. but a 141M total possibly guaranteed .. ton of guaranteed money is tied to roster bonuses (39M roster bonus per year) but if the Chiefs cut him, he wont get the roster bonus

Feels like the Chiefs could cut Mahomes with little to no dead money in 2026.
------------------

Dak's $ is truly guaranteed, guaranteed at signing with no strings attached.

Mahomes "technically" needs to be on roster to get his guaranteed roster bonuses.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;1278905]So Dak's contract has a "record-breaking" 126 million in guarantees, but Mahomes already had a contract with 141 million in guarantees. How is Dak's 126 million in guarantees "record-breaking"?

I guess if you are saying Dak got the better deal because he will be up for [I]another [/I] deal sooner than Mahomes, then I would agree. However, it wasn't a better deal in terms of guarantees and average salary for the course of the deals they signed.[/quote]

I don't know about the guaranteed part. All I know from everything I've read is that Dak's is the more favorable deal.

Here's another good breakdown

[URL="https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-insider-notes-desperation-driving-bears-qb-search-plus-dak-prescott-makes-cowboys-pay-for-waiting/"]Dak Prescott awarded record-setting deal: Contract breakdown, cap impact and Cowboys free agency outlook[/URL]

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

Definitely a great deal. He was smart in doing what he did, and his agent deserves all the credit in the world.

Hopefully it hinders their ability to improve the rest of the team.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

Terrible signing by the Cowboys. Prescott is not worth that kind of cash.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

Dallas cap next year is looking very tight, and that was before they just restructured 3 contracts to save a further $17m this year

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1278927]Terrible signing by the Cowboys. Prescott is not worth that kind of cash.[/quote]

I agree but I can see why they did it too... It's the hardest position in the league to find, and he's a top 10-12 QB. Hard to let him walk

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1278907]I'm not gonna argue that he's very talented, and I'm not saying he was bad this season, but I'd be curious to find Cooley grades cuz IRRC he wasn't praising him as highly as he had before.

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No disrespect to Cooley but he is also a negative nancy.. It seems like most of the time he has a beef with the skins players and it's odd

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

QB's get paid (overpaid). We've seen what happens when you have a good one that you don't take care of.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[QUOTE=skinsfaninok;1278932]No disrespect to Cooley but he is also a negative nancy.. It seems like most of the time he has a beef with the skins players and it's odd[/QUOTE]I could hear he's been unfairly harsh towards Kerrigan, but he absolutely LOVES Scherff !

1nyway, no one's arguing he wasn't our best lineman last season. He was. I just think it wasn't his best season is all am saying.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

I think the only position Cooley is little harsh on is TE. He's right about Kerrigan, the guy doesn't have much left and has always been pretty one dimensional as a pass rusher.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[QUOTE=MTK;1278933]QB's get paid (overpaid). We've seen what happens when you have a good one that you don't take care of.[/QUOTE]We have? When?

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Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1278936]We have? When?

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Sigh I really hate to keep going down this road but, Kirk

You know, the guy that Heinicke is already better than

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1278937]Sigh I really hate to keep going down this road but, Kirk

You know, the guy that Heinicke is already better than[/quote]

I soooooooooooooooooo wish we had Kirk under contract.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

12th most cap space for us now at 39M

boys 20.7M
vaginas 3.2
eagles -25.4

[url]https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2021/[/url]

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1278935]I think the only position Cooley is little harsh on is TE. He's right about Kerrigan, the guy doesn't have much left and has always been pretty one dimensional as a pass rusher.[/quote]

Agreed. Even on TE, he's only as harsh as he is enthusiastic when he likes a TE's work.
But with Kerrigan, while I get his points and think he's right, his tone sometimes is a little salty, but it's the only one where I could here he's "negative" I think overall he's pretty fair in his breakdowns, and it's quite obvious he wants the team and its' players to succeed.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1278933]QB's get paid (overpaid). We've seen what happens when you have a good one that you don't take care of.[/quote]

Kirk Cousins - tremendously shit on by the majority for being overpaid, yet he's third in the league in TD passes since 2017.

Meanwhile we gave up a third and 2 years of Fuller for Alex Smith, then went through Smith, McCoy, Sanchez and Johnson in one season, wasted a first rounder on Haskins and went through Keenum, Haskins and McCoy and last year went through Haskins, Allen and Smith again. while still paying what we probably would've spent on Cousins in the first place.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

Looking at the skins roster for possible cuts;

Bostic - 1 yr remaining, 2.9 cap hit, would save 2M with cut


... and thats it really. Anyone making more than him is not a cut candidate and everyone below him is like 1M or less cap hit

Terry Mclaurin is set to make a whopping 1.1M this year. 2 years remaining, no 5th year team option

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1278936]We have? When?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk[/quote]

i'm with you too . . . Kirk was so great he brought Minnesota down from super bowl aspirations his first year and has all Viking fans wanting anything but him.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=mooby;1278942]Kirk Cousins - tremendously shit on by the majority for being overpaid, yet he's third in the league in TD passes since 2017.

Meanwhile we gave up a third and 2 years of Fuller for Alex Smith, then went through Smith, McCoy, Sanchez and Johnson in one season, wasted a first rounder on Haskins and went through Keenum, Haskins and McCoy and last year went through Haskins, Allen and Smith again. while still paying what we probably would've spent on Cousins in the first place.[/quote]

We've basically been flopping around like a fish out of water since he left. But I know, the guy that owns 7 of our franchise passing records is just an overpaid scrub. You can put his numbers up against just about anyone since he became a starter in 2015.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[QUOTE=MTK;1278933]QB's get paid (overpaid). We've seen what happens when you have a good one that you don't take care of.[/QUOTE]We could also say that we have seen vicariously through the Vikings what happens when you pay an overrated qb top dollars.

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Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

Problem with Kirk is that he is and always has been like the 10th to 14th best QB in the league (which is huge bc there is a big drop off after like 15)

Comparing him to the top 10 = Kirk is overpaid and doesnt compare

But if you accept him for who he is, a low end franchise QB, hes good to have bc if you dont have Kirk ... you have the Alex Smith and Kyle Allens of the world.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1278907]I'm not gonna argue that he's very talented, and I'm not saying he was bad this season, but I'd be curious to find Cooley grades cuz IRRC he wasn't praising him as highly as he had before.

Envoyé de mon SM-J320FN en utilisant Tapatalk[/quote]

I say this with all respect and affection: Knock off your b.s. about my main man BS before you lose your ambassador post! Can't we have an All-Pro too, like all the other teams' fans, without bitching about how much they cost? Hell, we're about to spend more on Free Agents who haven't done a thing for us yet then we spent on BS.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

Since Kirk left he's 25-21-1 in Minnesota. We're 17-31. Sorry but Kirk wins again.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1278949]I say this with all respect and affection: Knock off your b.s. about my main man BS before you lose your ambassador post! Can't we have an All-Pro too, like all the other teams' fans, without bitching about how much they cost? Hell, we're about to spend more on Free Agents who haven't done a thing for us yet then we spent on BS.[/quote]

:laughing2

Don't read me wrong. I love Scherff. I think he's a tremendously talented player, and I think his attitude is what we need for Ron's culture change to become a reality.

All I've been saying is:

-He should've been signed to a LTD 2 seasons ago

-Not doing that put us in a situation to spend a lot of cap on one season and more likely than not end up losing him to FA next year

-Are we gonna be able to find answers at enough positions to contend to something meaningful ? If not, is this 18M 1yr rental really logical ?

-Last year wasn't his best season, partly because he played banged up

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1278950]Since Kirk left he's 25-21-1 in Minnesota. We're 17-31. Sorry but Kirk wins again.[/quote]

Yop, and don't forget to factor in that WE (well Bruce Allen) put him in a situation to get that massive contract which impended Minnesota's ability to keep building around him. We probably could've had him for half the avg/yr he's making now. That would have allowed to build a solid team around him.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1278951]:laughing2

Don't read me wrong. I love Scherff. I think he's a tremendously talented player, and I think his attitude is what we need for Ron's culture change to become a reality.

All I've been saying is:

-He should've been signed to a LTD 2 seasons ago

-Not doing that put us in a situation to spend a lot of cap on one season and more likely than not end up losing him to FA next year

-Are we gonna be able to find answers at enough positions to contend to something meaningful ? If not, is this 18M 1yr rental really logical ?

-Last year wasn't his best season, partly because he played banged up[/quote]

You keep saying he didn't play great last year yet his PFF grade and an all pro designation beg to differ. I agree with everything else, we should have signed him to a new deal 2 years ago. It's always cheaper to sign a player today than down the road.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

Three years later and we are still debating Kirk. IMO no he is not a top 10 QB, but his stats are good and the knock people give him in the 4th quarter I don't get either. Last year he had a 117 rating with 13 TDs and 2 interceptions in the 4th quarter. In close games where margin of victory/defeat was less than 7 points he had a 110 rating and 22 TDs and 6 ints. His salary the thee people closest to him in A/Y are Rodgers, Goff and Wentz. Those three have all played in Super Bowls but I would take KC over Goff and Wentz.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1278950]Since Kirk left he's 25-21-1 in Minnesota. We're 17-31. Sorry but Kirk wins again.[/quote]

Wins a bigger participation trophy. Good for him.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=SunnySide;1278940]12th most cap space for us now at 39M

boys 20.7M
vaginas 3.2
eagles -25.4

[url]https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2021/[/url][/quote]

The 12th spot is based on total cap space but the highlighted 39 million is based on top 51 (when I sorted it was 7th best). It looks like we actually have decent money tied up outside of top 51. I was thinking that was dead money but the values don't add up. It looks like we are paying a lot of dough to someone not suiting up. Maybe I am reading that wrong?

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1278956]Wins a bigger participation trophy. Good for him.[/quote]

Significantly better record than us that's for sure, and a playoff win too.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1278950]Since Kirk left he's 25-21-1 in Minnesota. We're 17-31. Sorry but Kirk wins again.[/quote]

I think it is ridiculous for people to say that Kirk is a scrub and that Heinecke is better than him.

That being said, I don't think Kirk gets us to 25-21-1 had he stayed in our team. He would have given us stability at the position, but we wouldn't have had the offensive pieces he's had in Minnesota.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=BaltimoreSkins;1278955]Three years later and we are still debating Kirk. IMO no he is not a top 10 QB, but his stats are good and the knock people give him in the 4th quarter I don't get either. Last year he had a 117 rating with 13 TDs and 2 interceptions in the 4th quarter. In close games where margin of victory/defeat was less than 7 points he had a 110 rating and 22 TDs and 6 ints. His salary the thee people closest to him in A/Y are Rodgers, Goff and Wentz. Those three have all played in Super Bowls but I would take KC over Goff and Wentz.[/quote]

It's not really even a debate anymore, at least not a fair and honest one. He's way better than his haters will ever give him credit for, and we've been worse off since he left and we're still looking for a QB 4 years later. Anyone who wants to say otherwise is just kidding themselves.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1278950]Since Kirk left he's 25-21-1 in Minnesota. We're 17-31. Sorry but Kirk wins again.[/quote]

Minnesota was 21 - 11 with Keenum and Bradford. KC was a significant downgrade because of his contract value versus the cap. They had to cut or not sign significant pieces because an average to slightly above average QB demanded and received top 3 salary. Like you said, Dak (and KC at the time) got the pay because that is what you had to do to sign a qb in their market, but I am glad we didn't pay KC, and if AS hadn't gotten hurt, records would bear out that we paid less for a better end result.

The point of all of this isn't to rehash KC - you brought him up, but to look at the effect of paying a non elite qb elite money. Better to roll with a mid level and build up the team around him. No matter what, the qb spot will always be a problem that very few teams find long term elite answers for.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=Ruhskins;1278959]I think it is ridiculous for people to say that Kirk is a scrub and that Heinecke is better than him.

That being said, I don't think Kirk gets us to 25-21-1 had he stayed in our team. He would have given us stability at the position, but we wouldn't have had the offensive pieces he's had in Minnesota.[/quote]

It's tough to compare QBs since they don't have the same personnel around them.

He's hands down better than anyone we have had since he left though.

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1278963]Minnesota was 21 - 11 with Keenum and Bradford. KC was a significant downgrade because of his contract value versus the cap. They had to cut or not sign significant pieces because an average to slightly above average QB demanded and received top 3 salary. Like you said, Dak (and KC at the time) got the pay because that is what you had to do to sign a qb in their market, but I am glad we didn't pay KC, and if AS hadn't gotten hurt, records would bear out that we paid less for a better end result.

The point of all of this isn't to rehash KC - you brought him up, but to look at the effect of paying a non elite qb elite money. Better to roll with a mid level and build up the team around him. No matter what, the qb spot will always be a problem that very few teams find long term elite answers for.[/quote]

I think alot of that is on the GM though his cap hit wasn't that much in 2020 or now in 2021. It will be a doozy in 2022 though! [url]https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/minnesota-vikings/kirk-cousins-9915/[/url]

Re: WFT's Off-Season Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1278960]It's not really even a debate anymore, at least not a fair and honest one. He's way better than his haters will ever give him credit for, and we've been worse off since he left and we're still looking for a QB 4 years later. Anyone who wants to say otherwise is just kidding themselves.[/quote]

tell that to minnesota fans, who now have exactly the same duality on their message board. KC is KC, he can't/hasn't won anything with any team he has been on, and had we overpaid him, with the train wreck that our club has been, we wouldn't have been in any better place. than we are now.