Commanders Post at The Warpath

Commanders Post at The Warpath (http://www.thewarpath.net/forum.php)

- Debating with the enemy (http://www.thewarpath.net/forumdisplay.php?f=75)

- - Obama Care (http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=30288)

I hope cool heads prevail here and this thread doesn't deteriorate further quickly.

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;567230]I hope cool heads prevail here and this thread doesn't deteriorate further quickly.[/quote]

That's true, this thread certainly turned away from Obama care didn't it?

Lets debate topics not attack each other for having a different opinion.

[quote=CRedskinsRule;567102]You are absolutely correct, I do not want to find a way to allow government to intrude and control the most important part of my life. I have in the past posted my thoughts on government, very clearly I believe. I am for a minimal government, one which secures our freedoms through a strong air force/navy and a standby army. Our Defense spending is as unwise as would be universal health care. We need the people of the US to remember that our history was made not by Government providing for our needs, but by individuals and local citizens working through hardship and toiling to bring the prosperity we enjoy. Government should serve to safeguard the basic principles we all hold dear, freedom of the individual, justice that is blind when it comes to race, creed, wealth. I am not a defeatist because I believe that Government has a limited role and a limited place in determining what is and is not appropriate health care spending. I am not defeatist when I look at the history of the Government and know that there are those who want nothing more than the purse strings to control who has access to the premium healthcare and who is shunted through the mass system (if you argue this point, go ask any congressman/woman what their healthcare package consists of). I simply do not want Government to be involved. I think it is a bad idea at its base. and as for being lazy, those who think the government should provide services instead of individuals being required to put in whatever it takes to provide for themselves and their families, that is lazy. I bust my tail, and i know most of us on here do everyday, and i try my best to provide the healthcare that my family needs. Lets all do that, and not look to big brother to handle it for us.

I don't expect that you would agree with these points, but at least recognize that to want a true limited government is neither lazy nor defeatist, in fact if government is limited that is when the opportunity to work hard, and lift this country out of its current debt is the most possible.[/quote]

I also want a limited/smaller government, as I have stated previously. I also have good health insurance. I also work hard. And, I don't have a position on government healthcare, as stated previously. Nevertheless, I can't see any value in always pointing out the costs/negatives without ever offering any positive ideas for making it work.

[quote=firstdown;567184]Why don't you come up with some positive ideas?
I just don't see any positives in this idea.

How do you think it's possible for the government to take on such a huge financial burden? To raise taxes over and over again to pay for a program that will run way over budget.

What would need to be sacrificed?
Higher cost and taxes.

not possible and nothing.
I don't think anyone here who is against the plan thinks its not possible its just that we feel its a bad idea.[/quote]

I'm not the one shooting down every possibility anyone posts -- you are. I'm just the one pointing out that your contribution adds no value to progress. You are an obstacle.

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;567281][B]I also want a limited/smaller government, as I have stated previously[/B]. I also have good health insurance. I also work hard. And, I don't have a position on government healthcare, as stated previously. Nevertheless, I can't see any value in always pointing out the costs/negatives without ever offering any positive ideas for making it work.[/quote]

I really don't understand your position then, are you saying that we should reduce the size of the Federal Government and at the same time offer some form of Universal Healthcare provided by that same Government?

John Stossel [URL="http://www.reason.com/news/show/134684.html"]nails it[/URL] once again...

[quote]By contrast, in areas of medicine where most patients pay their own way, service gets better, while prices fall.

Take plastic surgery and Lasik eye surgery: Because patients shop around and compare prices, doctors work hard to win their business. They often give customers their cell-phone numbers. Service keeps increasing, but prices don't. "In every other field of medicine, the price is going up faster than consumer prices in general," says John Goodman of the National Center for Policy Analysis. "But the price of Lasik surgery, on average, has gone down by 30 percent."[/quote]

not a good comparison. both lasek and plastic surgery are elective/ cosmetic. most of their cost is absorbed thru the patient. so of course people will be more frugal when using those procedures. now if that would work with heart surgery, and all the other operations a doctor could perform, then we would be talking

[quote=CRedskinsRule;567295]I really don't understand your position then, are you saying that we should reduce the size of the Federal Government and at the same time offer some form of Universal Healthcare provided by that same Government?[/quote]

As I have said many times, but you have failed to notice, I have no position on Universal Healthcare. I am not arguing for, or against, Universal Healthcare -- yet you continue to read my posts as if I was. It seems you perceive anyone who's ideas don't conform to yours as the opposition.

For my friends on the right...enjoy...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Psfn6iOfS8&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

[quote=dmek25;567318]not a good comparison. both lasek and plastic surgery are elective/ cosmetic. most of their cost is absorbed thru the patient. so of course people will be more frugal when using those procedures. now if that would work with heart surgery, and all the other operations a doctor could perform, then we would be talking[/quote]

I think that was sort of his point.

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;567379]As I have said many times, but you have failed to notice, I have no position on Universal Healthcare. I am not arguing for, or against, Universal Healthcare -- yet you continue to read my posts as if I was. It seems you perceive anyone who's ideas don't conform to yours as the opposition.[/quote]

I suppose I am a pretty defensive kinda guy.

I guess my contributions on this thread are to state the reasons against Univ. Healthcare. I think it would be that big of a mistake for our country. But then what is your point of posting, have you offered any positives, or only try to quiet people who voice strong doubts towards a major government increase in our lives.

I really didn't "fail to notice" that you say you don't know have a position is, but if that is the truth then why do you not want to hear the arguments against, just as you want to hear from the proponents of it?

[quote=firstdown;567426]Well maybe its because you only question the ones against Un. Health care and no one else.[/quote]

I just wanted to point out that your defeatist attitude is an obstacle to progress. It's just a coincidence that you are against Universal Healthcare.

Progress, in this case, does not mean Universal Healthcare. It means refining ideas until you get the best balance (whatever the topic). Every time you defeat an idea, and offer NO ALTERNATIVE, you stop the refinement process -- thereby stopping progress. So, people want to discuss possibilities, and you prohibit that. I understand you are worried about Universal Healthcare (for good reasons, no doubt), but you have to offer alternatives otherwise you reduce the value of the discussion.

[quote=CRedskinsRule;567433]I suppose I am a pretty defensive kinda guy.

I guess my contributions on this thread are to state the reasons against Univ. Healthcare. I think it would be that big of a mistake for our country. But then what is your point of posting, have you offered any positives, or only try to quiet people who voice strong doubts towards a major government increase in our lives.

I really didn't "fail to notice" that you say you don't know have a position is, but if that is the truth then why do you not want to hear the arguments against, just as you want to hear from the proponents of it?[/quote]

I'm not trying to quiet the people voicing strong doubts -- only the defeatists. (see above post)

I have not offered any positives, nor have I defeated anyone's well-thought ideas. If all I had to say was why other people's ideas were wrong, then I would not post.

If you notice, I have not said your ideas were wrong -- only your tactics. I also never said I didn't want to hear the opposing arguments. However, there is a difference between "opposing" and "opposing argument".

Here's the breakdown:

1.) There is a problem with healthcare in America. Agree?

2.) Something needs to happen to solve this problem. Agree?

3.) People are trying to come up with ideas to solve the problem, and all you do is say why their ideas are wrong, but you never offer an alternative solution.

So, you are not really "arguing", you are just opposing -- and that is worth much less than actually trying to solve the problem. Perhaps you don't see a problem that needs to be solved? (which would be totally legit)