Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

Keep talking John McCain. Please please please keep talking about the economy.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;477802]What a difference one day makes eh? This guys is not really bright is he? Or maybe he lacks foresight? Or maybe he just discovered compassion? Or maybe he tossed principles overboard?
[/quote]

Or maybe he just looked at all of the facts and allowed them to sway his opinion, instead of clinging to an obviously mistaken view.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;477907]Or maybe he just looked at all of the facts and allowed them to sway his opinion, instead of clinging to an obviously mistaken view.[/quote]
hm but wouldn't that make him a "flip-flopper"?:laughing2

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;477907]Or maybe he just looked at all of the facts and allowed them to sway his opinion, instead of clinging to an obviously mistaken view.[/quote]

How absurd...the facts have been right there in front of him and all of us all along. It doesn't take a genius to figure out letting AIG and Lehman Brothers fail at the same time will lead to disaster in the financial. I expect more from the man aspiring to lead this nation, I expect him to have foresight and you should too.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;477971]How absurd...the facts have been right there in front of him and all of us all along. It doesn't take a genius to figure out letting AIG and Lehman Brothers fail at the same time will lead to disaster in the financial. I expect more from the man aspiring to lead this nation, I expect him to have foresight and you should too.[/quote]

Foresight in general yes, but more acutely in his area(s) of expertise, much more so. But I don't expect the President to necessarily be an economic guru. My gut reaction to hearing about the bail out was "No effing way, not another one." But, after thinking about the ripple effect such a massive failure would have on the economy, you realize that despite your philosophical objections there really isn't another option. I mean, I watch Man Vs Wild all the time. The guy drinks his own urine in order to survive, but that doesn't mean that he can't bitch about the taste it leaves in his mouth.

That said, I understand McCain's initial reaction because I shared it. I would assume that one of his many advisers briefed him and gave him additional perspective therefore he changed his mind. The principles of "small government" do not condone buying up companies in the manner which we have recently seen. Any person that would be all about backing these big corporations with taxpayer money and not at least voice some apprehension would worry me. Again, nothing I'm saying is an attack on Obama, more of a general defense that no one person is going to automatically know the correct course of action. The willingness to listen and then have an informed opinion is of great benefit and one of the primary qualities I look for in a leader.

And regarding Hooskin's comment about "flip flopping," I thought that was the most ridiculous criticism made during the last election and I have not changed that opinion. The term literally gives me a migraine every time I hear/read it. I see nothing wrong with someone becoming more educated on a subject and changing their mind. I have a real hard time with someone so dedicated to dogma that they refuse to see the forest for the trees.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;478057]Foresight in general yes, but more acutely in his area(s) of expertise, much more so. But I don't expect the President to necessarily be an economic guru. My gut reaction to hearing about the bail out was "No effing way, not another one." But, after thinking about the ripple effect such a massive failure would have on the economy, you realize that despite your philosophical objections there really isn't another option. I mean, I watch Man Vs Wild all the time. The guy drinks his own urine in order to survive, but that doesn't mean that he can't bitch about the taste it leaves in his mouth.

That said, I understand McCain's initial reaction because I shared it. I would assume that one of his many advisers briefed him and gave him additional perspective therefore he changed his mind. The principles of "small government" do not condone buying up companies in the manner which we have recently seen. Any person that would be all about backing these big corporations with taxpayer money and not at least voice some apprehension would worry me. Again, nothing I'm saying is an attack on Obama, more of a general defense that no one person is going to automatically know the correct course of action. The willingness to listen and then have an informed opinion is of great benefit and one of the primary qualities I look for in a leader.

And regarding Hooskin's comment about "flip flopping," I thought that was the most ridiculous criticism made during the last election and I have not changed that opinion. The term literally gives me a migraine every time I hear/read it. I see nothing wrong with someone becoming more educated on a subject and changing their mind. I have a real hard time with someone so dedicated to dogma that they refuse to see the forest for the trees.[/quote]

Listen bro, I don't want to bailout these companies but when I hear AIG, Merrill Lynch and Lehman Brothers are in deep trouble I know what's up and what has to be done! Why? Because I know what these companies do and the impact of their failure! I know that we aught to bail them even though I wish we didn't have to.

The moral of the story is know what the fuck you're talking about before you open your mouth. McCain opened his big mouth and left no doubt with respect to his foolishness. Finally, some folks should be going to jail for these colossal failures.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

Anyone check out her email?
[url=http://news.yahoo.com/story//zd/20080917/tc_zd/232124]Palin's Yahoo Account Hacked, Contents Leaked - Yahoo! News[/url]
[QUOTE]The personal e-mail account of Republican vice presidential hopeful Gov. Sarah Palin was hacked this week by an activist group known as 'anonymous', according to a Web site that publishes leaked documents alleging government and corporate misconduct.

Anonymous gained access to Palin's Yahoo e-mail address on Tuesday evening and gave the information to Wikileaks, according to the Web site. Data shared included screen shots of Palin's inbox, two e-mails, her address book and several family photos. [/QUOTE]

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;478060]Listen bro, I don't want to bailout these companies but when I hear AIG, Merrill Lynch and Lehman Brothers are in deep trouble I know what's up and what has to be done! Why? Because I know what these companies do and the impact of their failure! I know that we aught to bail them even though I wish we didn't have to.

[B]The moral of the story is know what the fuck you're talking about before you open your mouth.[/B] McCain opened his big mouth and left no doubt with respect to his foolishness. Finally, some folks should be going to jail for these colossal failures.[/quote]

That I can agree with. I still respect the candor with which the remarks were made and have no problem with taking umbrage with the idea of a bail out. I have no problem with anyone criticizing McCain's view point, but I don't see justification for going after someone changing their mind in order to make a correct decision.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;477802]What a difference one day makes eh? This guys is not really bright is he? Or maybe he lacks foresight? Or maybe he just discovered compassion? Or maybe he tossed principles overboard?

[yt]xrEN58gcxIs[/yt][/quote]
I see you hold McCain to higher standars then you do Obama.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=onlydarksets;478061]Anyone check out her email?
[URL="http://news.yahoo.com/story//zd/20080917/tc_zd/232124"]Palin's Yahoo Account Hacked, Contents Leaked - Yahoo! News[/URL][/quote]

I hope the people who hacked her account go to jail and I think the people who run that site should also face charges. This has nothing to do with who's account was hacked and I say the same if it was Obama, Biden or anyone who had their account hacked into.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=firstdown;478068]I hope the people who hacked her account go to jail and I think the people who run that site should also face charges. This has nothing to do with who's account was hacked and I say the same if it was Obama, Biden or anyone who had their account hacked into.[/quote]
I agree regarding the hackers. For wikileak, though, they've already beat a court rap once, since they only host the files. I haven't formed an opinion on how they should be treated.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=firstdown;478067]I see you hold McCain to higher standars then you do Obama.[/quote]
[U]Everyone[/U] holds the other candidate to a higher standard than their own.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=onlydarksets;478071]I agree regarding the hackers. For wikileak, though, they've already beat a court rap once, since they only host the files. I haven't formed an opinion on how they should be treated.[/quote]
I look at it as receiving and holding stolen property.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=firstdown;478081]I look at it as receiving and holding stolen property.[/quote]

I think the question becomes, "Who owns the property?" I wouldn't say it's Palin in this case, but probably Yahoo. Either way, it's probably theft. Problem is, they most likely won't catch the guys who did it.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=firstdown;478067]I see you hold McCain to higher standars then you do Obama.[/quote]

I see you're being vague. Care to elaborate?

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;478083]I think the question becomes, "Who owns the property?" I wouldn't say it's Palin in this case, but probably Yahoo. Either way, it's probably theft. Problem is, they most likely won't catch the guys who did it.[/quote]

Well this could get pretty ugly before its all over as the AP is involved and refuses to hand over info to the FBI & secret Service. Here's a link.

[url=http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/18/palins-e-mail-hacked/]FBI, Secret Service Investigate Hacking of Palin’s E-mail - America’s Election HQ[/url]

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=firstdown;478099]Well this could get pretty ugly before its all over as the AP is involved and refuses to hand over info to the FBI & secret Service. Here's a link.

[URL="http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/18/palins-e-mail-hacked/"]FBI, Secret Service Investigate Hacking of Palin’s E-mail - America’s Election HQ[/URL][/quote]

They need to get a court order for the AP to hand them over. Sounds fair. What's really troubling though is the allegation that she conducted state business using a semi-private email account.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

Oh, Biden says "Be Patriotic and Pay More Taxes". This is just what I have thought of them all along. They are going to use the economy as a reason to keep lowering the income range to tax more people. I can hear it now from Obama if elected. I know I said I would only raise taxes on a small % of wealthy people in the US but things are even worse than we thought. We are going to have and lower the income level to ? so we can help the people of this great nation. So up goes my taxes agian (I pay more than my share) and I'm guessing he would go to around $75,000 income.
[url=http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/18/biden-wealthy-americans-must-pay-more-taxes-to-show-patriotism/]Biden: Wealthy Americans Must Pay More Taxes to Show Patriotism - America’s Election HQ[/url]

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

The hand wringing and panic around all this is absurd. It's a rough time but if history is any teacher it will smooth out over the long run.

I find it laughable that apparently the same people that complain that Bush is a fascist want the government to step in and bail out every failing company that comes along. The government has its nose in too many things to begin with and a huge portion of the population just wants to give it more power - terrifying if you ask me.

Who is supposed to pay for this stuff? You whine about taxes being too high and then demand that the government fund every last social program and bail every struggling company out of its self-made quagmire. The money has to come from somewhere, unless you just want to print more and continue to devalue it.

Let the damn market work itself out, it always has and probably always will. In the meantime, quit watching every three point fluctuation and go read a history book.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

You mean this:

[yt]aDD08sDKPgI[/yt]

It's time to be patriotic? Help your fellow citizens? Help alleviate the financial troubles of your nation? Don't be the uninformed, unprincipled and useless [URL="http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/09/18/lkl.donald.trump/"]Donald Trump[/URL]? I would have went with "it's time to pay your share instead of gaming the system." As for you assertions that he's going to hike tax on those making 75K I say you have no basis whatsoever to come to such conclusion. Your gut feeling shouldn't supersede facts.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=firstdown;478104]Oh, Biden says "Be Patriotic and Pay More Taxes". This is just what I have thought of them all along. They are going to use the economy as a reason to keep lowering the income range to tax more people. I can hear it now from Obama if elected. I know I said I would only raise taxes on a small % of wealthy people in the US but things are even worse than we thought. We are going to have and lower the income level to ? so we can help the people of this great nation. So up goes my taxes agian (I pay more than my share) and I'm guessing he would go to around $75,000 income.
[url=http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/18/biden-wealthy-americans-must-pay-more-taxes-to-show-patriotism/]Biden: Wealthy Americans Must Pay More Taxes to Show Patriotism - America’s Election HQ[/url][/quote]

The socialism isn't even subtle any more, it's in-your-face socialism.

The [B]percentage[/B] of taxes paid already increases with income, in other words the wealthy are paying a higher percentage AND a higher dollar amount. What more do they want?

I fall squarely in the middle class and wouldn't be affected directly in the least bit by an increase in taxes on the wealthy, and I think it's the stupidest plan I've ever heard.

The wealthy are the people keeping this country running - they're paying more in taxes in a year than most of us gross in income. They're already paying for damn near the entire government, the government needs to stop wasting the money they have and stop trying to be everyone's mommy and daddy.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;478102]They need to get a court order for the AP to hand them over. Sounds fair. [B]What's really troubling though is the allegation that she conducted state business using a semi-private email account.[/B][/quote]

How exactly is this troubling? I've heard the argument that "she was trying to hide communications, but NOTHING in that account was illegal or all that damning." I mean talk about a witch hunt. And how is this MORE troubling than the actual crime (hacking into her account) that was committed.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

Winston Churchill summarized Socialism pretty well:

"...a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say. Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance."

[URL="http://books.google.com/books?id=Z0lpZhenN6AC&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=a+socialist+policy+is+abhorrent+to+the+British+ideas+of+freedom.&source=web&ots=GXcOjvekO5&sig=uMeXjFgJt7U8yN95X8ihjMB27AA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result"]Friedrich Hayek: A Biography[/URL]

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;478121]How exactly is this troubling? I've heard the argument that "she was trying to hide communications, but NOTHING in that account was illegal or all that damning." I mean talk about a witch hunt. And how is this MORE troubling than the actual crime (hacking into her account) that was committed.[/quote]

I think it's troubling just from the standpoint that she's using a free, public email platform for conducting government business. It's not illegal or immoral as much as it's just kind of dumb.

Running a government from a @yahoo.com address just looks and feels wrong. It's like signing some piece of important legislation in your living room while wearing a bathrobe.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=mheisig;478119]The socialism isn't even subtle any more, it's in-your-face socialism.

The [B]percentage[/B] of taxes paid already increases with income, in other words the wealthy are paying a higher percentage AND a higher dollar amount. What more do they want?

I fall squarely in the middle class and wouldn't be affected directly in the least bit by an increase in taxes on the wealthy, and I think it's the stupidest plan I've ever heard.

The wealthy are the people keeping this country running - they're paying more in taxes in a year than most of us gross in income. They're already paying for damn near the entire government, the government needs to stop wasting the money they have and stop trying to be everyone's mommy and daddy.[/quote]
Good post, agreed.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=mheisig;478119]I fall squarely in the middle class and wouldn't be affected directly in the least bit by an increase in taxes on the wealthy, and I think it's the stupidest plan I've ever heard.[/quote]

Actually, if you work for a wealthy person, you might be more affected than you think. Most of the people who work in this country work for small businesses. So if there are small business owners who are classified as "rich" or "wealthy" by the Dems, and a larger portion of their income is taken by the government in the form of tax increases, one of the first ways they will make up for that loss is by cutting labor costs.

For everyone out there who thinks tax increases for the rich are just fine and dandy, just wait until your pink slip arrives.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=Beemnseven;478130]Actually, if you work for a wealthy person, you might be more affected than you think. Most of the people who work in this country work for small businesses. So if there are small business owners who are classified as "rich" or "wealthy" by the Dems, and a larger portion of their income is taken by the government in the form of tax increases, one of the first ways they will make up for that loss is by cutting labor costs.

For everyone out there who thinks tax increases for the rich are just fine and dandy, just wait until your pink slip arrives.[/quote]

Excellent point.

Hacking away at the top level indiscriminately probably appeals to romantic notions of "taking on the man" and "fighting big business" without a realization of the trickle-down effect.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;478121]How exactly is this troubling? I've heard the argument that "she was trying to hide communications, but NOTHING in that account was illegal or all that damning." I mean talk about a witch hunt. And how is this MORE troubling than the actual crime (hacking into her account) that was committed.[/quote]

Note the usage of the word [I]allegation[/I]. Also note that there are two accounts in question. Her personal one was hacked (I don't approve) and the status of whether the other account was hacked is unknown.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;478137]Note the usage of the word [I]allegation[/I]. Also note that there are two accounts in question. Her personal one was hacked (I don't approve) and the status of whether the other account was hacked is unknown.[/quote]
Saden we agree on something!

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

Here's a question for you guys:

If Candidate A wants to raise taxes (on the rich), but will spend more frugally, and Candidate B wants to lower taxes (on the rich), but will spend more frivolously, who do you choose?

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;478137]Note the usage of the word [I]allegation[/I]. Also note that there are two accounts in question. Her personal one was hacked (I don't approve) and the status of whether the other account was hacked is unknown.[/quote]

Using her personal account to send off a few business related emails doesn't bother me in the slightest. Maybe she didn't have VPN access or a web portal to her email, wherever she was, who knows?

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

At least she knows how to email, that's more than can be said of old man McCain.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;478202]Using her personal account to send off a few business related emails doesn't bother me in the slightest. Maybe she didn't have VPN access or a web portal to her email, wherever she was, who knows?[/quote]

For security reasons you don't conduct business from your personal email. For intelligent reasons you should not mix business emails with personal emails. For legal reasons government official shouldn't conduct state business outside official communication lines. For a good reasons it should bother you that a government official uses a yahoo account to conduct state business.

If any of is not clear or doesn't make sense I apologist.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;478199]Here's a question for you guys:

If Candidate A wants to raise taxes (on the rich), but will spend more frugally, and Candidate B wants to lower taxes (on the rich), but will spend more frivolously, who do you choose?[/quote]
I know what you getting at but look up earmarks of the two running and see who wins hands down. OBAMA

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=Mattyk72;478218]At least she knows how to email, that's more than can be said of old man McCain.[/quote]


Oh come on now, the man is a war hero! A POW!

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

Its not a good time for me to talk about taxes because I just had to write three big checks to pay federal/State withholding and a penalty check for $238.34 because my last months payment check was two days late. People wonder why I won't vote for Obama because he is going to raise my taxes and I don't care if he says he is not but small business is going to get hit.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=saden1;478223]For security reasons you don't conduct business from your personal email. For intelligent reasons you should not mix business emails with personal emails. For legal reasons government official shouldn't conduct state business outside official communication lines. For a good reasons it should bother you that a government official uses a yahoo account to conduct state business.

If any of is not clear or doesn't make sense I apologist.[/quote]

You don't think Yahoo maintains better security protocols than Alaska's state IT dept?

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;478228]You don't think Yahoo maintains better security protocols than Alaska's state IT dept?[/quote]

As evident by the hacking I would have to say no, I don't think they maintain better security protocols. Off course it all depends who they hired to manage their IT department. Knowing how Palin operates I would not be supprised if one of her high school friends got the head IT department job because they love "browsing the web."


BTW I don't see how your question is relevant or supportive of your position.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=firstdown;478227]Its not a good time for me to talk about taxes because I just had to write three big checks to pay federal/State withholding and a penalty check for $238.34 because my last months payment check was two days late. People wonder why I won't vote for Obama because he is going to raise my taxes and I don't care if he says he is not but small business is going to get hit.[/quote]

Perhaps you should take the responsibility of sending Uncle Sam his money more seriously? Next time he just might send IRS agents to break your legs.

Re: Update: McCain Selects Gov. Sarah Palin as Running Mate
 

[quote=firstdown;478224]I know what you getting at but look up earmarks of the two running and see who wins hands down. OBAMA[/quote]

I'm not "getting at" anything. I just thought it was an interesting question to ponder.