Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

I can see both sides, the Skins technically didn't violate any rules, but they did go overboard in dumping $$ into the uncapped year and basically gave the rest of the league the finger on what was supposed to be an unwritten understanding.

Still, not sure I agree with the severity of the punishment though. All around a lose/lose for the league if you ask me. I'm normally not the type to rag on Goodell, but I think he made a bad call here.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

ti can see both sides of it too -

the league is upset that a couple teams broke lines and behaved ethically and so now theyre being vindictive.

they skins and cowboys gave the rest of the league the finger for illegally colluding to screw the players.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

I'm sure the Skins were concerned about the ethics of collusion for their reasoning to dump salary. lol

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=Mattyk;898568]I can see both sides, the Skins technically didn't violate any rules, but they did go overboard in dumping $$ into the uncapped year and basically gave the rest of the league the finger on what was supposed to be an unwritten understanding.

Still, not sure I agree with the severity of the punishment though. All around a lose/lose for the league if you ask me. I'm normally not the type to rag on Goodell, but I think he made a bad call here.[/quote]

I think the rest of the league would agree with you because they think RG let the Skins off too easy. It boggles my mind how anyone with the Skins could have thought they'd get away with going so overboard.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=Mattyk;898575]I'm sure the Skins were concerned about the ethics of collusion for their reasoning to dump salary. lol[/quote]

lol very true.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=irish;898577]I think the rest of the league would agree with you because they think RG let the Skins off too easy. It boggles my mind how anyone with the Skins could have thought they'd get away with going so overboard.[/quote]

The punishment was overboard, especially considering many other teams did the same thing, just not to the same extent.

Competitive balance my ass, it's called other owners having a problem with big market cash happy teams that have the money and are willing to spend it.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=Jontrem;896114]I cant imagine that they are taking 36 million from our cap space. We might have violated the spirit of the rule, but not the rule. If this is true this is going to hurt us pretty badly.[/quote]

what makes it worse is that the money goes to th rest of the teams in the nfl.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=Mattyk;898580]The punishment was overboard, especially considering many other teams did the same thing, just not to the same extent.

Competitive balance my ass, it's called other owners having a problem with big market cash happy teams that have the money and are willing to spend it.[/quote]

If the league once competitive balance, they should stop teams from dealing picks to the f'ing Patriots. Every year teams seem to give away picks to them.

Also, I would expect Goodell to veto any attempts by the Bears to sign Mario Williams.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=Mattyk;898580]The punishment was overboard, especially considering many other teams did the same thing, just not to the same extent.

Competitive balance my ass, it's called other owners having a problem with big market cash happy teams that have the money and are willing to spend it.[/quote]

Agreed.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHPjPcmn2_s]Seinfeld - Jackie Chiles - YouTube[/ame]

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=irish;898577]I think the rest of the league would agree with you because they think RG let the Skins off too easy. It boggles my mind how anyone with the Skins could have thought they'd get away with going so overboard.[/quote]

If it had been me my thought process would have been that the entire point of the uncapped year was to create an environment that owners and maybe even the players wouldn't want. One where teams were allowed to spend as little or as much as they could. The owners little behind doors agreement wasn't legal and was contradictory to the spirit of the clause in the CBA. The Redskins had every right on earth to do exactly what they did. Teams with better cash flow were supposed to be able to do this whether all the jealous and, cheap and/or poor owners liked it. If they didn't want such a situation they shouldn't have voted to terminate the CBA.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=Mattyk;898580]The punishment was overboard, especially considering many other teams did the same thing, just not to the same extent.

[B]Competitive balance my ass, it's called other owners having a problem with big market cash happy teams that have the money and are willing to spend it.[/B][/quote]

This is what it comes down to. There are too many owners who buy into this "We're all in this together! All the rich teams should keep propping the poor teams up up even when they have a crappy market and don't engage in business practices to maximize profit."

I can't believe that there aren't more than a few other owners or the higher revenue teams that see this as a direct shot across their own bow. Owners fights are brewing. I've got news for Ralph Wilson and his crew...you're going to lose.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

I'd really be interested to see how the NFL's argument would hold up in court.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

Haynesworth stay here was punishment enough for the bonus we paid him.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=Monkeydad;898622]Haynesworth stay here was punishment enough for the bonus we paid him.[/quote]

The Vinny Cerrato era was a worst punishment.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=Mattyk;898614]I'd really be interested to see how the NFL's argument would hold up in court.[/quote]

I was thinking about that. I have a couple questions about that.
1. Is that even possible? I've never heard of an owner suing the nfl (then again I've only followed football since 2004).
2. If it were possible, would snyder even do it? My dad was in a similar situation at his lawfirm a couple of years ago when he got screwed out of thousands of dollars. He easily could have won if he took his lawfirm to court, but said it would be ridiculous to sue his partners because he needs to work with them for the next decade or so. Is this a big enough issue for snyder to sue over?
3. If he were to sue, what would he get out of it? Would the Redskins get anything, or just Snyder?

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=Mattyk;898614]I'd really be interested to see how the NFL's argument would hold up in court.[/quote]

I think it would hold up quite well especially since the NFLPA has signed off on what the NFL did. Some teams pressed on the gas a bit and the Skins floored it. What they did while technically not illegal definitely was not smart. If the shoe was on the other foot and a few owners had done what the Skins did I am 100% certain this thread would look a whole lot different.

I'm surprised that you would want the NFL to morph into MLB where a few rich teams buy up all the top players and create a have and have not league that ends up being not very interesting.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=irish;898634]I think it would hold up quite well especially since the NFLPA has signed off on what the NFL did. Some teams pressed on the gas a bit and the Skins floored it. What they did while technically not illegal definitely was not smart. If the shoe was on the other foot and a few owners had done what the Skins did I am 100% certain this thread would look a whole lot different.

I'm surprised that you would want the NFL to morph into MLB where a few rich teams buy up all the top players and create a have and have not league that ends up being not very interesting.[/quote]

you completely miss the purpose of the uncapped year. the uncapped year was specifically put into the previous CBA because for the sole purpose of putting fear that the NFL would morph into MLB if a new CBA was not reached.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=Mattyk;898614]I'd really be interested to see how the NFL's argument would hold up in court.[/quote]


The more and more I think about this the more irate I get. Take the opposite end of the spectrum with Tampa, they are signing all the big free agents right now because they violated the rules in 2010. They spent as little money as possible, knowing it would get rolled into the next years cap. The new agreement requires teams spend a certain high percentage of the cap. They violated that by not reaching the min requirement. And they are being rewarded for it by having a greater cap this year. How is that any different?

Its not like the Skins went out and signed every free agent to a ton of money, ala the yankess. They simply cut players. They could have easily gone out and had a payroll of 300 million in one year deals to make a title run, and it be allowed, if they wanted too

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=Mattyk;898575]I'm sure the Skins were concerned about the ethics of collusion for their reasoning to dump salary. lol[/quote]

I agree. However, that doesn't make the point irrelevant.

When you do the right/legal thing, you should not get punished even if you do it for the wrong reasons. You may not get an "Atta Boy", but you certainly shouldn't be singled out sanction either.

You can't legislate morality, intention or beliefs. You can regulate actions.

Ultimately, as someone said, this is a cat fight amongst a bunch of owners. GGiven that the NFLPA has signed off on the collusive behavior and the private nature of the owner's agreement (i.e. - not an action by the govt.). Not sure what Snyder's legal grounds would be. I wonder if could file a complaint with the NLRB essentially alleging that the owners colluded and should be sanctioned regardless of the players subsequent approval of the collusion. If that were possible, that would really make it a pissing match.

Again, I think the whole D.Smith backroom deals thing CRed described probably has merit along with the whole "F you Danny Boy. Play by our rules or we [I]will[/I] get you!" aspect.

All in all, a bunch of very rich guys pissed about how one or two of them don't play nice with the other little rich boys and didn't share his toys after nap time.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;898639]you completely miss the purpose of the uncapped year. the uncapped year was specifically put into the previous CBA because for the sole purpose of putting fear that the NFL would morph into MLB if a new CBA was not reached.[/quote]

I understand why the uncapped year was in the previous CBA and it worked, they got a new CBA without turning the NFL into MLB.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=Monkeydad;898622]Haynesworth stay here was punishment enough for the bonus we paid him.[/quote]

I'm mainly upset at the NFL in this situation because there is no legal reason why the Redskins should be penalized, but I'm also mad at the redskins for such poor management considering they knew it was a possibility that we would be penalized later. Knowing Haynesworth was such a risk, it seems ridiculous to have two risks in him being a poor player, and getting screwed by the NFL by giving him his 21 million roster bonus. I wouldn't be as upset in this situation if we had 21 mil more in cap space over the next two years. 7 mil less a year is a far cry from 18 mil less. 11 mil more a year than we have gets us two quality players without having to restructure. I hate restructuring, it always seems to make us hold on to players longer than we want to which seems to have a ripple effect on our team for many years. Especially when our team will rely on Free agency so heavily with our draft picks gone

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=irish;898577]I think the rest of the league would agree with you because they think RG let the Skins off too easy. It boggles my mind how anyone with the Skins could have thought they'd get away with going so overboard.[/quote]

This is easy. Imagine you have an HOA in your neighborhood. The main road that goes through the neighborhood has a speed limit of 45MPH. The HOA holds an all hands meeting and they make an agreement all residents go 35MPH. Bill says "Screw that" and drives 45MPH. Then he gets mailed a ticket.

He didn't break ANY rules. When he goes to court, that ticket will be tossed out in a second. Is he an asshole? Maybe. But he's doing everything by the book, and when it comes down to it, the HOA/NFL cannot LEGALLY do what they did.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=irish;898634]I think it would hold up quite well especially since the NFLPA has signed off on what the NFL did. Some teams pressed on the gas a bit and the Skins floored it. What they did while technically not illegal definitely was not smart. If the shoe was on the other foot and a few owners had done what the Skins did I am 100% certain this thread would look a whole lot different.

I'm surprised that you would want the NFL to morph into MLB where a few rich teams buy up all the top players and create a have and have not league that ends up being not very interesting.[/quote]

It would not hold up well. In the society we live in EVERYTHING needs to be documented. There is no rule that we broke, and no documentation of any warning. In court (if it were brought to court) the only argument that the NFL could have is that it is their league and they can do whatever they want (but I doubt that would hold up).

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;898641]I agree. However, that doesn't make the point irrelevant.

When you do the right/legal thing, you should not get punished even if you do it for the wrong reasons. You may not get an "Atta Boy", but you certainly shouldn't be singled out sanction either.

You can't legislate morality, intention or beliefs. You can regulate actions.

Ultimately, as someone said, this is a cat fight amongst a bunch of owners. GGiven that the NFLPA has signed off on the collusive behavior and the private nature of the owner's agreement (i.e. - not an action by the govt.). Not sure what Snyder's legal grounds would be. I wonder if could file a complaint with the NLRB essentially alleging that the owners colluded and should be sanctioned regardless of the players subsequent approval of the collusion. If that were possible, that would really make it a pissing match.

Again, I think the whole D.Smith backroom deals thing CRed described probably has merit along with the whole "F you Danny Boy. Play by our rules or we [I]will[/I] get you!" aspect.

All in all, a bunch of very rich guys pissed about how one or two of them don't play nice with the other little rich boys and didn't share his toys after nap time.[/quote]

I'm not sure how one can argue there was collusion when the party colluded against (NFLPA) essentially said there was no collusion.

The NFLPA said the Skins & Boys didnt do anything wrong but signed off on the NFL's decision because if they didnt the NFL was going to lower the cap for all 32 teams. Since the NFLPA is looking out for players on 32 teams instead of a couple, they signed off, reluctantly, on the deal.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=irish;898655]I'm not sure how one can argue there was collusion when the party colluded against (NFLPA) essentially said there was no collusion.

The NFLPA said the Skins & Boys didnt do anything wrong but signed off on the NFL's decision because if they didnt the NFL was going to lower the cap for all 32 teams. Since the NFLPA is looking out for players on 32 teams instead of a couple, they signed off, reluctantly, on the deal.[/quote]

No idea why the NFLPA would ever sign off on this. It sets a precedent for future years where the owners work against the players in collusion. I guess they are trying to score brownie points/build a good relationship. Politics.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=skinster;898654]It would not hold up well. In the society we live in EVERYTHING needs to be documented. There is no rule that we broke, and no documentation of any warning. In court (if it were brought to court) the only argument that the NFL could have is that it is their league and they can do whatever they want (but I doubt that would hold up).[/quote]

You are right it should have been documented but I suspect the owners decided as a group they they could trust each other which in retrospect was a mistake with Snyder in the group. Now that the other owners know DS's word is no good it will be interesting to see how they handle any future agreements either as a group or one on one with DS.

Be honest, if you made a gents agreement with me and we shook on it and gave our word and I f'd you over you'd be as mad as these guys are.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=Daseal;898653]This is easy. Imagine you have an HOA in your neighborhood. The main road that goes through the neighborhood has a speed limit of 45MPH. The HOA holds an all hands meeting and they make an agreement all residents go 35MPH. Bill says "Screw that" and drives 45MPH. Then he gets mailed a ticket.

He didn't break ANY rules. When he goes to court, that ticket will be tossed out in a second. Is he an asshole? Maybe. But he's doing everything by the book, and when it comes down to it, the HOA/NFL cannot LEGALLY do what they did.[/quote]

Would you ever trust or do business with a guy like Bill who makes an agreement with you then essentially says fu? I wouldnt.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=skinster;898664][B]No idea why the NFLPA would ever sign off on this.[/B] It sets a precedent for future years where the owners work against the players in collusion. I guess they are trying to score brownie points/build a good relationship. Politics.[/quote]


D Smith's contract is up for renewel, i think this month. Goodell was threatening to reduce the cap amount for the first time ever. If that had happened right before Smith's election.... he would lose.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=irish;898655]I'm not sure how one can argue there was collusion when the party colluded against (NFLPA) essentially said there was no collusion.

The NFLPA said the Skins & Boys didnt do anything wrong but signed off on the NFL's decision because if they didnt the NFL was going to lower the cap for all 32 teams. Since the NFLPA is looking out for players on 32 teams instead of a couple, they signed off, reluctantly, on the deal.[/quote]

Just because the NFL blackmailed the NFLPA into agreeing on the punishment doesn't mean they'll get away with it. Lotus was the first to mention this, but since this is just an owners' pissing match I expect DS and JJ to go into the owners meetings threatening to raise hell until the punishment is reduced. And the other owners definitely have stuff to lose if this goes to the courts so I expect them to comply.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=mooby;898671]Just because the NFL blackmailed the NFLPA into agreeing on the punishment doesn't mean they'll get away with it. Lotus was the first to mention this, but since this is just an owners' pissing match I expect DS and JJ to go into the owners meetings threatening to raise hell until the punishment is reduced. And the other owners definitely have stuff to lose if this goes to the courts so I expect them to comply.[/quote]

What stuff do the other owners have to lose?

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=irish;898669]Would you ever trust or do business with a guy like Bill who makes an agreement with you then essentially says fu? I wouldnt.[/quote]

If Bill signs something and is LEGALLY OBLIGATED to oblige to it, then yes, I would do business with him no problem. There need to be clearly defined boundries. If you fail to realize something (i.e. a loophole) then learn from your mistakes and fix it next time.

Even if this was an agreement. "Don't go overboard" can be interpreted a lot of different ways.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=irish;898676]What stuff do the other owners have to lose?[/quote]

Financial restitution to the parties whose ability to perform was hindered by illegal activity.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=irish;898666]You are right it should have been documented but I suspect the owners decided as a group they they could trust each other which in retrospect was a mistake with Snyder in the group. Now that the other owners know DS's word is no good it will be interesting to see how they handle any future agreements either as a group or one on one with DS.

Be honest, if you made a gents agreement with me and we shook on it and gave our word and I f'd you over you'd be as mad as these guys are.[/quote]

Its not a matter of weather it was a douche move by snyder. It was. The fact of the matter is that they are not legally allowed to penalize snyder. Snyder probably lost respect from the owners, but if he took them to court he would win in this situation.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=Player_HTTR;898686]Financial restitution to the parties whose ability to perform was hindered by illegal activity.[/quote]

Huh?

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=Daseal;898681]If Bill signs something and is LEGALLY OBLIGATED to oblige to it, then yes, I would do business with him no problem. There need to be clearly defined boundries. If you fail to realize something (i.e. a loophole) then learn from your mistakes and fix it next time.

Even if this was an agreement. "Don't go overboard" can be interpreted a lot of different ways.[/quote]

28 other owners understood what "dont go overboard" meant. Obviously DS made the mistake of not having the boundries of "dont go overboard" defined. DS didnt see this loophole but I suspect he will learn from his mistake and fix it next time.

[QUOTE=irish;898676]What stuff do the other owners have to lose?[/QUOTE]

I'm not a legal expert but I would think just because the owners colluded and then blackmailed the union into agreeing on it doesn't mean they would get off scot free in the eyes of a court.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=skinster;898690]Its not a matter of weather it was a douche move by snyder. It was. The fact of the matter is that they are not legally allowed to penalize snyder. Snyder probably lost respect from the owners, but if he took them to court he would win in this situation.[/quote]

Who exactly would testify for DS in this case? The NFL, NFLPA, the 28 other owners he made an agreement with then backstabbed.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

Simple point here is no rules were broken, the NFL has admitted as much to the Skins.

If the Skins and Cowboys want to press the issue legally, I think they would have a pretty good case.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=irish;898724]Who exactly would testify for DS in this case? The NFL, NFLPA, the 28 other owners he made an agreement with then backstabbed.[/quote]

Who would need to testify? there's no documentation of any agreement, so he doesn't need anyone to testify considering there are no rules he broke. The facts are pretty straight forward. And on a side note; nobody said he made an agreement with anyone; he was told that collusion was happening and decided not to participate. A shady move? maybe, but that's up for debate.

Re: NFL taking away Redskins cap space
 

[quote=skinster;898771]Who would need to testify? there's no documentation of any agreement, so he doesn't need anyone to testify considering there are no rules he broke. The facts are pretty straight forward. And on a side note; nobody said he made an agreement with anyone; he was told that collusion was happening and decided not to participate. A shady move? maybe, but that's up for debate.[/quote]

It being a shady move isnt up for debate, it is a shady move.

He'd be the one who would need to make the case, not the NFL and I dont think he has enough to make his case. How would he prove collusion was going on and he didnt want to be part of it?

In addition, not all agreements and contracts have to be in writing to be valid. If all parties agree to whatever has been decided and there is whats called a meeting of the minds then its a vaild contract.