Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1013763]Ultimately, I think both parties are "responsible" for what happened that night. Clearly, each had the opportunity to avoid escalation to a physical brawl. Right now, for me, the only thing I can say for certain is that this was an avoidable tragedy that has had its tragic consequences multiplied by the irresponsible coverage.

Also - Given my willingness to throw down back in the day and the mindless ferocity I approached it with, I am incredibly lucky to be alive and not in jail today.[/quote]

Disagree,

1. Blaming the media is a common cop out. 2. Zimmerman is responsible, he did his job as a bitch boy wanna be and he told the cops. Putting his hands on someone after following them makes him responsible.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1013752]According to you guys analysis Zimmerman is sure to walk. The evidence is overwhelmingly in his favor, and there are goigng to be riots!!!?? **Wishful thinking sounds like to me and not analysis** LMAO way out there[/quote]

i do hope he is found guilty but its a close call.

either way, the jurors get to make the call and they are in the best position to make a decision .. assuming none of them harbor strong feelings for or against gun control laws and didnt speak up during voir dire.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

There si no gone too far when someon you don;t know follows you and enters your personal space. You have a right to self defrense at that point. That person brought the problem to you.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1013763]Ultimately, I think both parties are "responsible" for what happened that night. Clearly, each had the opportunity to avoid escalation to a physical brawl. Right now, for me, the only thing I can say for certain is that this was an avoidable tragedy that has had its tragic consequences multiplied by the irresponsible coverage.

Also - Given my willingness to throw down back in the day and the mindless ferocity I approached it with, I am incredibly lucky to be alive and not in jail today.[/quote]

yes

[QUOTE=Gary84Clark;1013762]Wait, like your last prediction that Romney was gonna win Pennsylvania, the Presidency, and there would be riots. Remember that one?[/QUOTE]

No.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1013769]Disagree,

1. Blaming the media is a common cop out. 2. Zimmerman is responsible, he did his job as a bitch boy wanna be and he told the cops. Putting his hands on someone after following them makes him responsible.[/quote]

TM bears zero responsibility huh?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=over the mountain;1013770]i do hope he is found guilty but its a close call.

either way, the jurors get to make the call and they are in the best position to make a decision .. assuming none of them harbor strong feelings for or against gun control laws and didnt speak up during voir dire.[/quote]

I think the gun control angle is being over played here. This has nothing to do with gun control its a stalking case. No one is saying it was illegal for Zimmermn to have the gun we are saying it was illegal for him to kill that teenager.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=over the mountain;1013770]i do hope he is found guilty but its a close call.

either way, the jurors get to make the call and they are in the best position to make a decision .. assuming none of them harbor strong feelings for or against gun control laws and didnt speak up during voir dire.[/quote]

Or are closet racists.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=FRPLG;1013753]Here's what we KNOW happened. A over-zealous neighborhood watchman followed around someone because he felt he was suspicious.[/quote]OK, but how do you KNOW any of the rest?

[quote=FRPLG;1013753] He didn't engage the guy to find out what he was doing in a constructive way (that we know of) rather he acted in a way that created a situation of confrontation. Now TM may have gone too far in his reaction and gave Z a reason to defend himself (who knows) but what we KNOW is that Z should have handled the situation better and then an unarmed teenager wouldn't be dead. Does any of that make him guilty? No. But I am damn sure if it's me in that situation TM doesn't get shot because a more reasonable person doesn't manipulate a situation into being confrontational like that. I think it is hard to see the basic situation any different.[/quote]

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1013771]There si no gone too far when someon you don;t know follows you and enters your personal space. You have a right to self defrense at that point. That person brought the problem to you.[/quote]

Wrong. DEAD WRONG. Being bothered by someone does not mean you can't "go too far".

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=FRPLG;1013774]TM bears zero responsibility huh?[/quote]


zero follow me and Ima whoop yo ass.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1013777]OK, but how do you KNOW any of the rest?[/quote]

You're correct. "know" is the wrong word. "Strongly believe without much evidence, discussion, assertion, or testimony to the contrary" is better. The picture painted by almost everyone in general follows that line. The details of exactly how everything played out are being debated. No one makes much of an argument any other way. Given what has been testified to..if you're in that situation can you see it going down the way it did?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1013780]zero follow me and Ima whoop yo ass.[/quote]

And you might get shot. It's the risk you're taking. And to me in that situation you absolutely bear some responsibility.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Following someone is an aggressive act. If your logic is correct, then how can stalking laws be upheld in court?

[QUOTE=Gary84Clark;1013780]zero follow me and Ima whoop yo ass.[/QUOTE]

Abso-****ing-lutely. Too many predators out there to allow yourself to give someone an edge. I don't let people closer that arms length plus a rolled up WSJ. Just good self preservation.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

So if you follow someobody and after you upset them you then shoot them when they confront you? You are going to jail.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=over the mountain;1013755]i think we have slightly more than that. i added some more in bold.

plus, to my knowledge we have 2 eyewitnesses saying they believe the larger person was on top (Z being the larger person in their judgment) and one witness saying he believes the lighter skinned person was on the bottom.[/quote]

The two witnesses had Zimmerman on top after the gunshot fired which conflicts with how Martin's body was found (face down) or simply could mean Martin rolled over after Martin collapsed from being shot. Also, the photo they were shown of Martin for size comparison to Zimmerman was Martin in his football uniform that looked like it was from when he was 14 and had no reference for TM's height or size - It was clearly NOT a photo of Martin at or near the time of the shooting. On the other hand, the guy 15 feet away identified Z as being on the bottom by the color of his jacket and said Z's arms were free while TM had him in the "ground and pound".

[quote=over the mountain;1013755]if martin was giving zimmerman the ground and pound so hard that zimmerman was fearing for his life, how did zimmerman manage to unholster his firearm and cleanly discharge it right into martin's chest?

if zimmerman was able to do all they above acts seemingly cleanly, was there no other less deadly alternatives?

if martin was on top of him, id imagine a long struggle for the gun would ensue. . . . [/quote]

How? I can imagine any number of ways. Been on the bottom of a fight and needed to pull a knife while being choked? It's a brawl my man. Shit happens. "you would imagine a long struggle"? Martin is angry, is staring him in the eye as he does the "pound" and momentarily loses track of Z's hands; taking advantage of the momentary lapse of his opponent, Z fumbles his gun out and gets a lucky shot off. Not saying that's how it happened but it's one of a myriad of ways a moment can turn a fight.

[quote=over the mountain;1013755]joe - watch the reenactment video zimmerman did for the news a few days after and tell me if his version of events would hold water. just too many leaps of faith imo from what ive seen.[/quote]

I did when it was first posted. Can't remember what it said or my impressions. If you can post hte link, great. Otherwise, I'll try to find it and watch it again. It will be interesting to compare to the testimony that is now coming out.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=over the mountain;1013755]plus, to my knowledge we have 2 eyewitnesses saying they believe the larger person was on top (Z being the larger person in their judgment) and one witness saying he believes the lighter skinned person was on the bottom.[/quote]This could be significant, but wasn't one witness basing his judgement off seeing the pictures of Trayvon as a kid and thinking the guy on top had been a lot bigger than that? And the other was talking about Zimmerman being on top after he shot Martin?

Some co-workers and I saw the bit recently where a witness says he actually saw Martin on top of Zimmerman pounding him.

The thing that gets me is, what's important is who attacked who. And the ONE witness I've seen so far that gives any clue as to how the confrontation started was the "girlfriend". I think the prosecution would have been better off not bringing her into the case. She was a horrible character witness for Trayvon.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1013771]There si no gone too far when someon you don;t know follows you and enters your personal space. [B]You have a right to self defrense at that point. [/B]That person brought the problem to you.[/quote]

No. You don't. As long as I don't threaten you with physical violence, I can get in your face all day long. You don't like it? Walk away or call the cops. You DO NOT have the right to become violent. Period.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=FRPLG;1013782]You're correct. "know" is the wrong word. "Strongly believe without much evidence, discussion, assertion, or testimony to the contrary" is better. The picture painted by almost everyone in general follows that line. The details of exactly how everything played out are being debated. No one makes much of an argument any other way. Given what has been testified to..if you're in that situation can you see it going down the way it did?[/quote]I could see things going down a lot of ways, plenty of idiots around, including yours truly. :) My point is that there's too much speculation, with people making Z or TM out to be guilty with zero evidence to their speculation.

If only there was video surveillance of the confrontation, like the cameras at schools. (I'm not really crazy about "Big Brother", but would come in handy now.)

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1013780]zero follow me and Ima whoop yo ass.[/quote]

And I'll beat the crap out of you and then sue your ass into the poor house for starting the fight.

And I'll win again.

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;1013792]And I'll beat the crap out of you and then sue your ass into the poor house for starting the fight.

And I'll win again.[/QUOTE]

This is true.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1013786]So if you follow someobody and after you upset them you then shoot them when they confront you? You are going to jail.[/quote]

"after you upset them", no. After the person followed [I]initiates[/I] a physical confrontation and uses enough force to put "you" in reasonable fear of "your" life. Yup. "You" get to shoot them.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1013784]Following someone is an aggressive act. If your logic is correct, then how can stalking laws be upheld in court?[/quote]

Stalking laws are entirely different legal animal. You know why stalkng laws exist? In part, so that the stalked don't need to resort to violence.

"Stalking" [EDIT: In and of itself] is not, and never has been, an excuse to escalate a confrontaton from verbal to physical.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

So Joe, you saying I can follow anyone I want around as much as I want?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1013796]Stalking laws are entirely different legal animal. You know why stalkng laws exist? In part, so that the stalked don't need to resort to violence.

"Stalking" [EDIT: In and of itself] is not, and never has been, an excuse to escalate a confrontaton from verbal to physical.[/quote]

Well, why didn't the stalking laws apply to Zimmerman following the teenager?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1013813]So Joe, you saying I can follow anyone I want around as much as I want?[/quote]

JR, meet Gary84Clark, your WP designated stalker. Gary84Clark, meet your nemesis.

This should be fun!

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Joe and and rat ta tat tat, Dictionary.com challenges your stalking defintion.

stalking/ˈstɔkɪŋ/ Show Spelled [staw-king] Show IPA
noun
1.the act or an instance of stalking, or harassing another in an aggressive, often threatening and illegal manner: Stalking is now a crime in many states.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1013814]Well, why didn't the stalking laws apply to Zimmerman following the teenager?[/quote]

This may be the point of contention that the Media has sold to the general public/braying mob. Zimmerman was ambushed by Martin.

It'll come out, no one will want to hear it, but that's how it went down.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1013817]Joe and and rat ta tat tat, Dictionary.com challenges your stalking defintion.

stalking/ˈstɔkɪŋ/ Show Spelled [staw-king] Show IPA
noun
1.the act or an instance of stalking, or harassing another in an aggressive, often threatening and illegal manner: Stalking is now a crime in many states.[/quote]

[I]Criminal activity consisting of the repeated following and harassing of another person.[/I]

[I]Stalking is a distinctive form of criminal activity composed of a series of actions that taken individually might constitute legal behavior. For example, sending flowers, writing love notes, and waiting for someone outside her place of work are actions that, on their own, are not criminal. When these actions are coupled with an intent to instill fear or injury, however, they may constitute a pattern of behavior that is illegal. Though anti-stalking laws are gender neutral, most stalkers are men and most victims are women.[/I]
[I]Stalking first attracted widespread public concern when a young actress named Rebecca Shaeffer, who was living in California, was shot to death by an obsessed fan who had stalked her for two years. The case drew extensive media coverage and revealed how widespread a problem stalking was to both celebrity and noncelebrity victims. Until the enactment of anti-stalking laws, police had little power to arrest someone who behaved in a threatening but legal way. Even when the suspect had followed his victim, sent her hate mail, or behaved in a threatening manner, the police were without legal recourse. Law enforcement could not take action until the suspect acted on his threats and assaulted or injured the victim.[/I]

I don't expect you to send JR love notes or flowers, however it would lighten the mood.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1013819][I]Criminal activity consisting of the repeated following and harassing of another person.[/I]


I don't expect you to send JR love notes or flowers, however it would lighten the mood.[/quote]

But Mr. Rat ta tat tat: Zimmerman has repeatedly followed and harassed individuals that share common characteristics with Mr. Martin, the deceased. Calling the police repeatedly at the sight of black males walking through his community is a form of harrassment. It should have been a harbinger of the current trial. This consitutes a paranoid fear of black males. Mr. Zimmerman's behavior shows patterns then he kills one.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1013820]But Mr. Rat ta tat tat: Zimmerman has repeatedly followed and harassed individuals that share common characteristics with Mr. Martin, the deceased. Calling the police repeatedly at the sight of black males walking through his community is a form of harrassment. It should have been a harbinger of the current trial. This consitutes a paranoid fear of black males. Mr. Zimmerman's behavior shows patterns then he kills one.[/quote]

G84C, if all of the burglars are of the same ethnic group what's a bigot to do?

Duck analogy.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1013818]This may be the point of contention that the Media has sold to the general public/braying mob. Zimmerman was ambushed by Martin.

It'll come out, no one will want to hear it, but that's how it went down.[/quote]

To ambush someone takes planning. To prove ambush you must prove intent. We have evidence suggesting Zimmerman's intent as aggressive, but Martin was simply coming form the store. Joe please explain intent to your co-counsel.

[QUOTE=Gary84Clark;1013822]To ambush someone takes planning. To prove ambush you must prove intent.[/QUOTE]

Ambushed in the sense that he didn't try to run from Zimmerman, he looped back and confronted him.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1013818]

It'll come out, no one will want to hear it, but that's how it went down.[/quote]


LOL , well ok , now we can all sleep better since you were there and can testify that is how it went down ,because you know it.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1013821]G84C, if all of the burglars are of the same ethnic group what's a bigot to do?

Duck analogy.[/quote]

In Zimmerman's mind you would have a point. But that is Florida and I know damn well all the burgulars and trouble makers were not black. Research the area of Zimmerman's broken dreams of being a Mall cop. He called the police 100 times and that led to one arrest. The other times were delusions of a sick individual. Living in florida where the black males roam free. Poor Zimmerman.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1013825]Ambushed in the sense that he didn't try to run from Zimmerman, he looped back and confronted him.[/quote]

Stand your ground, in essence.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1013828]Stand your ground, in essence.[/quote]Ummmm... No. [URL="http://floridastandyourground.org/"]LINK[/URL]

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1013828]Stand your ground, in essence.[/quote]

The opposite. You can't confront someone who is following you. Get to somewhere safe, call the cops, let them deal with it.

Once someone makes it a physical altercation, all bets are off.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1013841]The opposite. You can't confront someone who is following you. Get to somewhere safe, call the cops, let them deal with it.

Once someone makes it a physical altercation, all bets are off.[/quote]

are you talking about zimmerman or martin? i am assuming your are kidding and not seriously implying that martin is at fault for not having "gone somewhere safe, call the cops, let them deal with it"... yet the same set of rules wouldnt apply to zimmerman.