Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

The new look - temporary right? It isn't good.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;905960]The new look - temporary right? It isn't good.[/quote]

No, it's permanent.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

Please change back to the other format!

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=HoopheadVII;905949]For the 87th time, the Skins and Cowboys were not penalized for spending too much. They were penalized for shifting future cap hit into the uncapped year.[/quote]

BFD. There was no rule against it.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=HoopheadVII;905949]For the 87th time, the Skins and Cowboys were not penalized for spending too much. They were penalized for shifting future cap hit into the uncapped year.[/quote]

Agreed.

My problem with the NFLPA is why do you agree to take away cap space from the two teams that would use that space on players?

And giving the space to teams that are not going to use it on players?

This whole situation is a little ridiculous.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=skinsguy;905951]Show me in the 2006 CBA where it clearly states a team cannot do this during the uncapped year.[/quote]

I didn't say that. I said it addresses the issue, and there are clauses that show the NFLPA was ok with restricting how much salary cap hit could be moved into an uncapped year. Here's one example:

[quote]Section 8. 30% Rules:
(a) No NFL Player Contract entered into in an Uncapped Year prior
to the Final League Year may provide for an annual decrease in Salary, excluding
any amount attributable to a signing bonus as defined in Section
7(b)(iv) above, of more than 30% of the Salary of the first League Year of the
contract per year. This rule shall not apply in any Capped Year to any Player
Contract that was signed in the 1993 League Year or earlier.[/quote]

The real issue is that the NFL Bylaws give the Commissioner broad powers to discipline teams - at his sole discretion - for acts he considers detrimental to the League, and that threaten competitive balance. If he warned them in advance he would consider this a threat to competitive balance, he has the authority to discipline them.

He screwed up the punishment and the process, but I understand where he's coming from.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

Now, that said, I went back and thought about the penalty itself and looked at the Haynesworth situation.

The thing we should be jumping up and down about is that the Skins are being punished for a player that wouldn't have been on their books for 2011 if the League had at least given them any idea of the magnitude of what punishment was coming.

For example, if the League had said at the time, "you can have the Haynesworth contract, but the signing bonus will be prorated across the life of the contract as if there were no voidable clause", the Redskins would have traded or cut him before the end of the 2010 League Year. That would have put all of the salary cap hit for Haynesworth's signing bonus into 2010 anyway.

Then, we're left with Hall. Even if you treat his $15m roster bonus in 2010 as a signing bonus, it counts as $3m towards the cap in 2010-2014.

Basically, if the Skins hadn't tried to push the salary cap hit from these two contracts into 2010, the net effect is that the Skins would be carrying an extra $3m in cap hit in 2012, 2013, and 2014. That's it - $3m x 3 years. Not $18m x 2 years.

The punishment doesn't fit the crime - and that's what we should be jumping up and down about.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;905999]Agreed.

My problem with the NFLPA is why do you agree to take away cap space from the two teams that would use that space on players?

And giving the space to teams that are not going to use it on players?

This whole situation is a little ridiculous.[/quote]

Well, that was some political maneuvering. The League threatened to reduce the salary cap across all teams.

In the long run, it doesn't matter exactly what the salary cap is. The upcoming cap is calculated based on projected revenues for the upcoming season, and then actual cash payments to players have to be a certain percentage of actual revenues. Changing the projection doesn't change the ultimate amount that goes to the players.

However, the League took this to the NFLPA a couple weeks before the NFLPA Executive Director was up for re-election. He thought he needed the cap (projection) to be above what it was the year before to get re-elected, so he signed off.

Basically, they took advantage of the timing to bribe DeMaurice Smith with his own job.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/redskins-salary-cap-challenge-raises-complicated-questions-for-nfl/2012/04/04/gIQAgj8BwS_story.html]Redskins salary cap challenge raises complicated questions for NFL - The Washington Post[/url]

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

Has anyone heard any updates on this? Are they still waiting on a hearing date? Kind died off in the news

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

I have heard nothing since that 29-0 crap vote asking other owners "do you want to keep your extra $1.6 million or not". That was late March.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=Monkeydad;909353]I have heard nothing since that 29-0 crap vote asking other owners "do you want to keep your extra $1.6 million or not". That was late March.[/quote]

Me either. Nor have I heard anything from HoopheadVII.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

Yeah this is lame. I know this is not considered an emergency and probably should not be rushed but one would think if you already have the Arbitures ear (Bountygate) he might as well hear this issue also. Then there is the question will it be the same Arbiture? and how hard is it to contact him and say give us a date your calender is open to hear the issues. It's like someone is stalling this whole issue so the Arbiture won't come out and say "the league was wrong and they have to give the CAP back" for fear the Skins will go out and pick up some more FA's, and they don't want it heard before the draft so the Arbiture won't give the teams draft picks as compensation for any unjust punishement.

I gust we just have to be resolved that this issue will not be heard for a long time and if we are lucky we get our CAP space back to be used next year which the other owners probably could care less about. Their concern is one team picking up all the decent talent in one offseason which they squashed easily this year. Their only small concern now is how to give back the CAP space that was spread out amongst other teams especially if it was used already.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=skinsguy;909358]Me either. Nor have I heard anything from HoopheadVII.[/quote]

Ya know, I just picture John Mara going to a whole bunch of Skins/Cowboys boards and throwing his justification out. LOL

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;909381]Ya know, I just picture John Mara going to a whole bunch of Skins/Cowboys boards and throwing his justification out. LOL[/quote]

LOL! Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

LOL. I get my news here. I just got inspired by JoeRedskin to read the actual docs and give my opinion from there.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

Was there ever any news on what we would be seeking as retribution? I don't remember a team every being wronged by the league before and been able to take it to court. I'm very interested to see what would happen if we win. I say compensatory picks.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

The only 'compensation' we would receive would be a reversal of the cap penalty. While true that it put us at a competitive disadvantage, i dont believe you can expect the pendulum to swing that far back our way.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=HoopheadVII;909438]LOL. I get my news here. I just got inspired by JoeRedskin to read the actual docs and give my opinion from there.[/quote]

LOL! Funny thing is, I actually did as well, and posted a link to the old CBA in one of these threads. Might be this one, several pages back.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=Monksdown;909524]The only 'compensation' we would receive would be a reversal of the cap penalty. While true that it put us at a competitive disadvantage, i dont believe you can expect the pendulum to swing that far back our way.[/quote]

I would be fine with just reversing the cap penalty. It wouldn't obviously change what has been done this season, but next season would be great.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

News....

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/18/hearing-coming-in-may-on-redskins-cowboys-cap-grievance/]Hearing coming in May on Redskins, Cowboys cap grievance | ProFootballTalk[/url]

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

I can see us having to bite the bullet in terms of the 18 mil we lost this year, but possibly having the rest of the penalty lifted. Although, I wouldn't mind having the entire 36 mil lifted, it would allow us to get some FAs late in the offseason or even during the season if there is a need.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=Ruhskins;909543]I can see us having to bite the bullet in terms of the 18 mil we lost this year, but possibly having the rest of the penalty lifted. Although, I wouldn't mind having the entire 36 mil lifted, it would allow us to get some FAs late in the offseason or even during the season if there is a need.[/quote]

I can see your point only because we spent the half that was left with us already but I really think we have a really good legal arguement and could see the full punishment being dropped.

[quote]
The league contends that the Cowboys and Redskins violated the “[URL="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/25/mara-says-redskins-cowboys-are-lucky-they-didnt-lose-draft-picks/"][COLOR=#d81718]spirit[/COLOR][/URL]” of the salary cap during the uncapped year of 2010, even though the NFL approved all contracts submitted by the teams containing payments in 2010. The circumstances suggest that the NFL tried to impose restrictions on spending that didn’t exist in the labor deal, which would constitute collusion in the uncapped year.
[/quote]

The issue is over the spirit part. If there was no rule or law against it then there really should be no punishment. The other owners might not be able to trust DS or JJ anymore with any agreements but that was the risk all the owners forced to accept.

and the NFL approved the contracts. If the NFL didn't like the contracts or it fell outside of the "spirit" of their salary cap then the NFL should have and did have the opportunity to deny them or tell the teams to rework the contracts. They didn't. Their mistake not ours. But there was no mistake. Had the NFL used their right to deny or tell teams to rework the contracts at that point the NFLPA would have had an arguement and evidence of the owners colluding. So to keep from getting into trouble the NFL approved the contracts and moved forward with their talks with the NFLPA over a new CBA. Now after the fact the NFL wants to say "oh we didn't like what you did and didn't like having to agree to those contracts and now that we have a new CBA and an agreement with the NFLPA over not coming after us we will punish you for not following the "spirit" of what we all wanted everyone to follow."

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

"The move has prompted a significant outcry from Cowboys and Redskins games, creating an unholy alliance between two arch rivals that could confirm the accuracy of the Mayan calendar."

LOL!!!!

[QUOTE=Ruhskins;909543]I can see us having to bite the bullet in terms of the 18 mil we lost this year, but possibly having the rest of the penalty lifted. Although, I wouldn't mind having the entire 36 mil lifted, it would allow us to get some FAs late in the offseason or even during the season if there is a need.[/QUOTE]

I think getting $18M back for next year is the most likely outcome.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=skinsguy;909574]"The move has prompted a significant outcry from Cowboys and Redskins games, creating an unholy alliance between two arch rivals that could confirm the accuracy of the Mayan calendar."

LOL!!!![/quote]

:goodjob::rofl:

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

So just to figure this all out.... the Skins had $36 mill of CAP space. The league has stated they are going to take it all back, but not all in one year. So they took $18 mill this year and said we will owe the other $18 mill next year. Fine. We were left with $18 mill in CAP space. Which we used. What are we going to give them next year "IF" the punishment is upheld? lol.

I'm believing the two teams can win this arguement. Based off the fact there was no actual rule or law in place saying they could not do what they did. On top of that the league approved the deals/contracts. The league had ample opportunity to review the contracts which they did, and either approve or deny the contracts. The league approved them.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=SBXVII;909541]News....

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/18/hearing-coming-in-may-on-redskins-cowboys-cap-grievance/]Hearing coming in May on Redskins, Cowboys cap grievance | ProFootballTalk[/url][/quote]

May 10 specifically

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=Mattyk;909632]I think getting $18M back for next year is the most likely outcome.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]

I think its kind of like being indicted for a crime. Your reward is you don't get punished. The $36 million in cap penalties is kind of like bail if you ask me.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=Ruhskins;909543][B]I can see us having to bite the bullet in terms of the 18 mil we lost this year, but possibly having the rest of the penalty lifted.[/B] Although, I wouldn't mind having the entire 36 mil lifted, it would allow us to get some FAs late in the offseason or even during the season if there is a need.[/quote]


That's how I see it too. That way the NFL can some what keep face.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[url=http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/57182/cowboysredskins-why-the-nfl-got-mad-2]Cowboys/Redskins: Why the NFL got mad - NFL Nation Blog - ESPN[/url]

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=Mattyk;909806][url=http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/57182/cowboysredskins-why-the-nfl-got-mad-2]Cowboys/Redskins: Why the NFL got mad - NFL Nation Blog - ESPN[/url][/quote]


SO a few teams are mad because they got the rug pulled out from under them in their game of playing "hard ball" with their players. So instead of rewarding them with a nice contract, they'd rather keep ****ing the player over and hitting with the tag. Boo Fcking Hoo. I'm glad AJ Smith finally got reemed up the but by the system because he sure as hell was trying to use the system to screw over his players. In terms of the salaries of DTs going up, well they should have been mad at Vinny the moment he signed him. Went from the highest DT salary being 8mil average to one with a average of $15mil. That had more impact than anything.

It's a wonder why the NFLPA even agreed to this shit.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

This makes less sense than that we were trying to gain a competitive edge by relieving ourselves of cap obligations. While that may be why some owners willingly signed off on the vote, I can't see that ever being raised in front of the arbitrator. I would love the arbitrator to just come out and blast the NFL, but I doubt the Skins or Cowboys really want that, they just want the space back.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

Also using that logic the Raiders should have been docked extra cap space every year for the last 10 years of Al Davis' life (RIP). Not to hammer on him, but how many positions did his craziness inflate. How much did he pay his punter and kicker again?

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

Well this just highlights that the NFL was actively trying to depress salaries with this handshake agrreement on an imaginary cap. Seems like the NFL would want to just settle this and move on before Burbank gets a hold of it and potentially throws a bomb into the room.

I'd love to hear a more legally informed opinion regarding the NFLPA's agreement to all of this. I know they signed away their right to sue in the CBA negotiations but it seems like an argument could be made that they signed away their rights absent key incriminating evidence and that could maybe render that unenforceable.

Plus what is the legal justification for extortion? Wouldn't informing a union that the cap was going to decrease if they didn't sign off be legally shaky at best?

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=FRPLG;909840]Well this just highlights that the NFL was actively trying to depress salaries with this handshake agrreement on an imaginary cap. Seems like the NFL would want to just settle this and move on before Burbank gets a hold of it and potentially throws a bomb into the room.

I'd love to hear a more legally informed opinion regarding the NFLPA's agreement to all of this. I know they signed away their right to sue in the CBA negotiations but it seems like an argument could be made that they signed away their rights absent key incriminating evidence and that could maybe render that unenforceable.

Plus what is the legal justification for extortion? Wouldn't informing a union that the cap was going to decrease if they didn't sign off be legally shaky at best?[/quote]

Exactly, with no salary cap in place per the then-effective collective bargaining agreement, doing anything to restrict salary growth that was not written into the then-effective CBA is tantamount to collusion.

The fact that owners are crying that franchise tag amounts went up shows they were expressly trying to hold player salaries down by instituting this verbal warning / handshake agreement.

This sucker has no chance of standing, NFLPA acquiescence or not.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=Schneed10;909845]Exactly, with no salary cap in place per the then-effective collective bargaining agreement, doing anything to restrict salary growth that was not written into the then-effective CBA is tantamount to collusion.

The fact that owners are crying that franchise tag amounts went up shows they were expressly trying to hold player salaries down by instituting this verbal warning / handshake agreement.

This sucker has no chance of standing, NFLPA acquiescence or not.[/quote]

I agree that it would be unfair, and evidence of illegal collusion if owners were punishing the Skins and Cowboys for pushing up the value of the franchise tag at certain positions.

However, this is one writer's (Breer's) speculation as to why certain owners might have generally been upset with the signings, and another writer (Graziano) taking that speculation as fact and running with it. Here's the logic used:

Breer:[LIST][*]It's been reported that multiple teams are upset with the way the Skins and Cowboys structured the Austin, Haynesworth, and Hall contracts.[*]29 teams voted to support the sanctions against the Skins and Cowboys.[*]I can think of three teams that were affected by the franchise tags going up at those positions.[/LIST]
Graziano:[LIST][*]Those three teams are completely full of it![*]I know the NFL gave us a different reason why the owners were upset, but Breer says these three teams have reason to complain, and therefore they must be behind the 29-2-1 vote, and therefore they are demonstrating evidence of illegal collusion.[/LIST]
I would love for the arbitrator to give the Redskins relief (while somehow still managing to screw the Cowboys), but it won't be based on this logic if he does.

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

Still waiting on an informed legal opinion on the above and I have another question.

What set of laws, rules, guidelines, philosophies is the arbitrator tied to? Meaning does he interpret law as it applies here, NFL rules, some combo of the two, basic ethical principles, or what?

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

[quote=FRPLG;909975]Still waiting on an informed legal opinion on the above and I have another question.

What set of laws, rules, guidelines, philosophies is the arbitrator tied to? Meaning does he interpret law as it applies here, NFL rules, some combo of the two, basic ethical principles, or what?[/quote]

He's a law professor at Penn State, and is supposed to be unbiased by definition. My guess is his interpretations are in order:

1. Legal
2. NFL - NFLPA Precedence

Re: Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess
 

"F" those mother "Fers"

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/20/league-requests-dismissal-of-cowboys-redskins-grievance/]League requests dismissal of Cowboys, Redskins grievance | ProFootballTalk[/url]

[QUOTE]Per a source with knowledge of the situation, the NFL has tried to block the hearing by submitting a request to dismiss the grievance.

The NFL contends that, because the NFL Players Association consented to the imposition of cap penalties, the Cowboys and Redskins have no grounds to attack the agreement under the Collective Bargaining Agreement, which governs the relationship between the league and the players.
[/QUOTE]

It shouldn't matter that the two sides agreed, the fact still remains that 30 owners are punishing 2 and the two don't think its fair. I hope DS and JJ take this all the way until we either get the CAP space back (all of it) or it can't be taken any further.