Re: All things Middle East related
 

President Biden made 3 points, among many, yesterday that i didnt consider.

1. Taliban was doing a "ceasefire" for the past year or so bc they were promised a May 1, 2021 withdrawl. So if we decided to stay and break our agreement .. it wouldnt have been under the ceasefire environment we saw the past year or so but an all out attack.

2. When he said "its not a foregone conclusion the Taliban would take over", that was a diplomatic response and requested by Afghanistan leaders as to avoid a "crisis of confidence". I think President Biden knew the Taliban would take over, not that quickly but he knew it was days not months.

3. They way the ANA and its generals folded and bribed away = proof of exactly why it was the right choice to get out.

----------------------------

When I came into office, I inherited a deal that President Trump negotiated with the Taliban. Under his agreement, U.S. forces would be out of Afghanistan by May 1, 2021 — just a little over three months after I took office.

U.S. forces had already drawn down during the Trump administration from roughly 15,500 American forces to 2,500 troops in country, and the Taliban was at its strongest militarily since 2001.

The choice I had to make, as your President, was either to follow through on that agreement or be prepared to go back to fighting the Taliban in the middle of the spring fighting season.

There would have been no ceasefire after May 1. There was no agreement protecting our forces after May 1. There was no status quo of stability without American casualties after May 1.

There was only the cold reality of either following through on the agreement to withdraw our forces or escalating the conflict and sending thousands more American troops back into combat in Afghanistan, lurching into the third decade of conflict.

I stand squarely behind my decision. After 20 years, I’ve learned the hard way that there was never a good time to withdraw U.S. forces.

That’s why we were still there. We were clear-eyed about the risks. We planned for every contingency.

But I always promised the American people that I will be straight with you. The truth is: This did unfold more quickly than we had anticipated.

So what’s happened? Afghanistan political leaders gave up and fled the country. The Afghan military collapsed, sometimes without trying to fight.

If anything, the developments of the past week reinforced that ending U.S. military involvement in Afghanistan now was the right decision.

American troops cannot and should not be fighting in a war and dying in a war that Afghan forces are not willing to fight for themselves. We spent over a trillion dollars. We trained and equipped an Afghan military force of some 300,000 strong — incredibly well equipped — a force larger in size than the militaries of many of our NATO allies.

[url]https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/08/16/remarks-by-president-biden-on-afghanistan/[/url]


Either recommit 20,000 plus troops to fight a strengthened Taliban (strengthened under Trumps watch) .. or get the hell out of there.

President Biden came out strong last night.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

Definitely looking strong for sticking to his beliefs even in the face of a horrible atrocity.

I still think a better evacuation plan for our peoples and Afghanis that helped us was needed. We shouldn't have waited until the only land we held was Kabul's airport before prioritizing visas for these people. Should've been prioritizing visas for them earlier, I know he had other things that had to be done but they definitely had the foresight to know this could turn into the new Saigon.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Schneed10;1287576]Nailed it. I’m a conservative. Chico is an idiot.[/quote]

[B]BINGO[/B] , Johnny tell the man what he has won!!!

Re: All things Middle East related
 

Man, the images of people clinging to the C17 as it took off and some people falling off, seriously WTF

[URL="https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/human-remains-found-wheel-17-military-plane-departed/story?id=79498298"]Human remains found in wheel well of C-17 military plane that departed from Kabul[/URL]

[URL="https://taskandpurpose.com/news/air-force-c17-afghanistan-video/"]Afghan man filmed himself trying to escape Kabul on side of C-17 during takeoff[/URL]

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=MTK;1287737]Man, the images of people clinging to the C17 as it took off and some people falling off, seriously WTF

[URL="https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/human-remains-found-wheel-17-military-plane-departed/story?id=79498298"]Human remains found in wheel well of C-17 military plane that departed from Kabul[/URL]

[URL="https://taskandpurpose.com/news/air-force-c17-afghanistan-video/"]Afghan man filmed himself trying to escape Kabul on side of C-17 during takeoff[/URL][/quote]

They won't fight to save their families and their own lives or their Country but they will jump on a moving cargo Jet?

Re: All things Middle East related
 

Thanks for posting that Sunnyside. I may not agree w/ Biden on a lot of things but I stand w/ him 100 percent on this. He got this right. Way to go Joe.

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[quote=nonniey;1287643]If you are not a Trumpster
).[/quote]




Make no mistake ,he is.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=punch it in;1287647]The question you need to be asking yourself as a Trumper or Trump supporter or whatever the pc name is for you anti pc Trump folks (i know the irony is crazy ) is would Trump be sending troops back in and realizing his error like Biden is doing? Or would Trump simply be blaming Obama and doubling and tripling down on the withdraw while his supporters chanted America first fuck Afghanistan?
#rememberthekurds[/quote]

I just wish Trump would STFU and go away. He makes my skin crawl.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Giantone;1287764]They won't fight to save their families and their own lives or their Country but they will jump on a moving cargo Jet?[/quote]

Straight up cowards.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1287768]Straight up cowards.[/quote]

I want this to come out the right way. I wish no harm to the Afghans ,I feel for their plight and I am shocked at the photos coming out yet why are people mad now? We have been there for way over 20 years and the Army gave up and ran. We have suffered our own loss's and spent almost a trillion dollars and I ask when is enough enough? Two weeks ago no one was even thinking about this withdrawal and now it's the poor Afghans . A deal was stuck with the trump administration and Biden honor it for the safe guard for all had he not there would be more fighting . The Biden Administration screwed up the withdrawal but trump needs to keep his mouth shut ,it was his deal .

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Giantone;1287764]They won't fight to save their families and their own lives or their Country but they will jump on a moving cargo Jet?[/quote]

Do you understand how desperate they are to get the hell out of there? Fight the Taliban? Are you serious

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Giantone;1287769]I want this to come out the right way. I wish no harm to the Afghans ,I feel for their plight and I am shocked at the photos coming out yet why are people mad now? We have been there for way over 20 years and the Army gave up and ran. We have suffered our own loss's and spent almost a trillion dollars and I ask when is enough enough? Two weeks ago no one was even thinking about this withdrawal and now it's the poor Afghans . A deal was stuck with the trump administration and Biden honor it for the safe guard for all had he not there would be more fighting . [B]The Biden Administration screwed up the withdrawal[/B] but trump needs to keep his mouth shut ,it was his deal .[/quote]

Well Jintsfan- that is a good post and completely correct imho.

But- [I]yea there is always one of those[/I]- it is the bold that you and others here are downplaying.

Once again, both Trump and Biden wanted or want out of Afghanistan. And though one could justify remaining, most everyone is in agreement. So there is little to dispute about that.

It is the shambolic and stupid way this withdrawal has gone that upsets people and for good reason. Biden has ignored his intelligence sources and military.

He pulled troops out before- [B]BEFORE[/B]- we had our civilians out. Not to mention Allied civilians and scores of Afghans who helped us and now will have a target on their backs.

Telling our people to shelter in place or to proceed to Kabul Airport past Taliban checkpoints on their own is rather callous. One hopes they are all in or near Kabul rather than Kandahar.

And Joe being Joe stated in that blustery certitude that is his trademark that this would not be like Saigon.

Well that was a bit of a whopper, no?

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=MTK;1287770]Do you understand how desperate they are to get the hell out of there? Fight the Taliban? Are you serious[/quote]

20years and 350,000 troops trained and they all ran! What else are we to do?

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=JackLord;1287780]Well Jintsfan- that is a good post and completely correct imho.

But- [I]yea there is always one of those[/I]- it is the bold that you and others here are downplaying.

Once again, both Trump and Biden wanted or want out of Afghanistan. And though one could justify remaining, most everyone is in agreement. So there is little to dispute about that.

It is the shambolic and stupid way this withdrawal has gone that upsets people and for good reason. Biden has ignored his intelligence sources and military.

He pulled troops out before- [B]BEFORE[/B]- we had our civilians out. Not to mention Allied civilians and scores of Afghans who helped us and now will have a target on their backs.

Telling our people to shelter in place or to proceed to Kabul Airport past Taliban checkpoints on their own is rather callous. One hopes they are all in or near Kabul rather than Kandahar.

And Joe being Joe stated in that blustery certitude that is his trademark that this would not be like Saigon.

Well that was a bit of a whopper, no?[/quote]

Where are the Military leaders in all this?

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Giantone;1287781]20years and 350,000 troops trained and they all ran! What else are we to do?[/quote]

I was merely pointing out that it's pretty damn sad when clinging to the side of a C17 sounds like your best option for the day.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Giantone;1287782]Where are the Military leaders in all this?[/quote]

Being ignored by the President, who it happens, is also the Commander in Chief.

Dust off that high school civics textbook, Jintsfan. ;)

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=JackLord;1287780].....

And Joe being Joe stated in that blustery certitude that is his trademark that this would not be like Saigon.

Well that was a bit of a whopper, no?[/quote]

He was horribly wrong and made a terrible decision (seriously damaging US interests and staining his legacy - am pretty sure he knows this) but that doesn't make this a lie imo - he was just wrong (foolish?).

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=nonniey;1287786]He was horribly wrong and made a terrible decision (seriously damaging US interests and staining his legacy - am pretty sure he knows this) but that doesn't make this a lie imo - he was just wrong (foolish?).[/quote]

The Saigon statement was not a lie. It was as you describe. But it was also an example of Biden's foolish bravado that is all to familiar to anyone who has paid even scant attention to him over the years.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=JackLord;1287789]The Saigon statement was not a lie. It was as you describe. But it was also an example of Biden's foolish bravado that is all to familiar to anyone who has paid even scant attention to him over the years.[/quote]


Yep - God I hope I'm not forced to vote for him again.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;1287767]I just wish Trump would STFU and go away. He makes my skin crawl.[/QUOTE]


Problem is he has given others in the party a roadmap. Be a cunt and my base will vote for you. The Jim Jordans of the world now just pander to the dregs of society. Trump has not only ruined the Republican party but created a party of white trash that was sick of hiding under their slimy rocks. Trump could die but his monster will not only live on but feel empowered and legitimate. It is an awful scenario.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[QUOTE=Giantone;1287769]I want this to come out the right way. I wish no harm to the Afghans ,I feel for their plight and I am shocked at the photos coming out yet why are people mad now? We have been there for way over 20 years and the Army gave up and ran. We have suffered our own loss's and spent almost a trillion dollars and I ask when is enough enough? Two weeks ago no one was even thinking about this withdrawal and now it's the poor Afghans . A deal was stuck with the trump administration and Biden honor it for the safe guard for all had he not there would be more fighting . The Biden Administration screwed up the withdrawal but trump needs to keep his mouth shut ,it was his deal .[/QUOTE]


60,000 afghans died fighting the Taliban G-1. I wouldn’t say they won’t fight. But like us, and other countries have realized there is no stopping the warlords (who are now posing as a government), and Trump played a huge part in making them feel legitimate and a part of things just like he did the white trash in our own country.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[QUOTE=nonniey;1287786]He was horribly wrong and made a terrible decision (seriously damaging US interests and staining his legacy - am pretty sure he knows this) but that doesn't make this a lie imo - he was just wrong (foolish?).[/QUOTE]


He is addressing the situation at least which is more than Trump would have done. Your vote wasn’t a total throw away. If Trump had won, not only would he have done the same thing but he would now be doing nothing other than saying America first fuck Afghanistan.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

read an op-ed from Condelezza Rice (sp?) and she mentioned the South Korea approach.

Condense our presence to kabul and surrounding area (S Korea) then maintain a US military presence there, allow us to keep that strategically located air base open and basically keep 25k plus troops there indefinitely like we do in S Korea. That way we have a hub strategically right in the middle of the ME, have a strong ally in Afghanistan, would allow the women and children in Kabul and surrounding area a chance at freedom and give them time to strengthen their democracy. She said it took s korea longer than 20 years to figure out their democracy and they were more advanced than afghanistan.

We were never going to win over the rural areas.

Of course, this is hindsight and would require us to take this approach 20 years ago .. when the Condelleza Rice's of the world were running the show.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

Complete and utter disaster that Joe Biden created

Enough of the excuse making. Enough.

There are around what 10k Americans and 50-100k Afghanistan allies completely trapped

Enough with the excuses. This is Biden’a disaster and only his

Clowns defend him at this point

Let’s focus on the Americans right now. I think Biden should coalition build and account for all nations with people there and move to bring all options on.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=SunnySide;1287814]read an op-ed from Condelezza Rice (sp?) and she mentioned the South Korea approach.

Condense our presence to kabul and surrounding area (S Korea) then maintain a US military presence there, allow us to keep that strategically located air base open and basically keep 25k plus troops there indefinitely like we do in S Korea. That way we have a hub strategically right in the middle of the ME, have a strong ally in Afghanistan, would allow the women and children in Kabul and surrounding area a chance at freedom and give them time to strengthen their democracy. She said it took s korea longer than 20 years to figure out their democracy and they were more advanced than afghanistan.

We were never going to win over the rural areas.

Of course, this is hindsight and would require us to take this approach 20 years ago .. when the Condelleza Rice's of the world were running the show.[/quote]

We were essentially doing that approach (with fewer troops) since the Obama administration. Trump and Biden decided to shit-can that strategy.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

Even Biden's own party is turning on him. (His Afghan catastrophe may wreck his Presidency much like Katrina wrecked Bush's).

"Biden finds few Capitol Hill allies amid Afghanistan backlash."

[url]https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/568297-biden-finds-few-capitol-hill-allies-amid-afghanistan-backlash[/url]

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[QUOTE=nonniey;1287817]Even Biden's own party is turning on him. (His Afghan catastrophe may wreck his Presidency much like Katrina wrecked Bush's).

"Biden finds few Capitol Hill allies amid Afghanistan backlash."

[url]https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/568297-biden-finds-few-capitol-hill-allies-amid-afghanistan-backlash[/url][/QUOTE]


Withdraw from a twenty year war is probably a little more difficult than sending aid to New Orleans. Bush had absolutely no excuse. Biden may or may not have had bad intelligence. We wont know how this will affect his presidency until the dust settles. Definitely not looking like it is going in the plus column at this point though.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[QUOTE=Chico23231;1287815]Complete and utter disaster that Joe Biden created

Enough of the excuse making. Enough.

There are around what 10k Americans and 50-100k Afghanistan allies completely trapped

Enough with the excuses. This is Biden’a disaster and only his

Clowns defend him at this point

Let’s focus on the Americans right now. I think Biden should coalition build and account for all nations with people there and move to bring all options on.[/QUOTE]


You are so far off base you are in a different stadium.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Chico23231;1287815]Complete and utter disaster that Joe Biden created

Enough of the excuse making. Enough.

There are around what 10k Americans and 50-100k Afghanistan allies completely trapped

Enough with the excuses. This is Biden’a disaster and only his

Clowns defend him at this point

Let’s focus on the Americans right now. I think Biden should coalition build and account for all nations with people there and move to bring all options on.[/quote]
LOL, this coming from trumps biggest cheerleader .
comrade chico is now worried about America .Funny shit there chico.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=nonniey;1287817]Even Biden's own party is turning on him. (His Afghan catastrophe may wreck his Presidency much like Katrina wrecked Bush's).

"Biden finds few Capitol Hill allies amid Afghanistan backlash."

[url]https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/568297-biden-finds-few-capitol-hill-allies-amid-afghanistan-backlash[/url][/quote]

Seriously that's not saying much ,their opinion changes with the wind .

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=punch it in;1287818]Withdraw from a twenty year war is probably a little more difficult than sending aid to New Orleans. Bush had absolutely no excuse. Biden may or may not have had bad intelligence. We wont know how this will affect his presidency until the dust settles. Definitely not looking like it is going in the plus column at this point though.[/quote]

Well according to all accounts he had good intelligence, good advice and good recommendations, he just chose not to heed them (Sounds a bit like how his predecessor operated). As for how this ultimately effects his presidency you are correct we'll have to wait till the dust settles. That said it will effect his legacy, most likely he has now locked himself into the historical bottom half of Presidents with this action.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=punch it in;1287819]You are so far off base you are in a different stadium.[/quote]

Nope, the foreign leaders across the world agree actually

They support Chico’s criticism

This is like when Bush claimed their was weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Complete and utter bullshit. There is no other excuse, Bush and his administration was full of garbage.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Chico23231;1287833]

They support Chico’s criticism
.[/quote]

LOL, drunk uncle at it again!

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[QUOTE=nonniey;1287829]Well according to all accounts he had good intelligence, good advice and good recommendations, he just chose not to heed them (Sounds a bit like how his predecessor operated). As for how this ultimately effects his presidency you are correct we'll have to wait till the dust settles. That said it will effect his legacy, most likely he has now locked himself into the historical bottom half of Presidents with this action.[/QUOTE]


Difference with your original comment about Katrina is in that case the tragedy had happened and Bush inexplicably chose to ignore it for a week, in Bidens case it is retrospective. It obviously was mismanaged but I find it hard to believe that with a couple minor tweaks it could have been smooth and he just said fuck it. Maybe he listened to the wrong people or wrong advice, but to say he knew this was going to happen and did it anyway seems off to me. The last three presidents were all talking about a withdraw, all wanted it, nobody did it. Maybe because this was the inevitable result? Idk. I just know that mistake or not (obviously looking like one now) there is no ulterior motive here or malicious intent, and he is trying to make it right.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=punch it in;1287847]Difference with your original comment about Katrina is in that case the tragedy had happened and Bush inexplicably chose to ignore it for a week, in Bidens case it is retrospective. It obviously was mismanaged but I find it hard to believe that with a couple minor tweaks it could have been smooth and he just said fuck it. Maybe he listened to the wrong people or wrong advice, but to say he knew this was going to happen and did it anyway seems off to me. The last three presidents were all talking about a withdraw, all wanted it, nobody did it. Maybe because this was the inevitable result? Idk. I just know that mistake or not (obviously looking like one now) there is no ulterior motive here or malicious intent, and he is trying to make it right.[/quote]

To be fair another difference is that Bush didn't make the decision for Katrina to hit the Gulf Coast, Biden actually caused this catastrophe and now has to respond to it.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

Biden didnt cause this .. the Taliban did.

I envision Foxnews and neo-cons to blame President Biden for every single thing the Taliban does going forward.

If we withdrew on May 1 or now .. the result would be the same. The Taliban sucks.

We are watching the neo con news spin team doing overtime here.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=SunnySide;1287883]Biden didnt cause this .. the Taliban did.

I envision Foxnews and neo-cons to blame President Biden for every single thing the Taliban does going forward.

If we withdrew on May 1 or now .. the result would be the same. The Taliban sucks.

We are watching the neo con news spin team doing overtime here.[/quote]

Oh and all the other news sites too (Even CNN). It's not like it is only right leaning media and politicians blaming him for this it is just about all media and politicians left and right. Yeah it was Biden's fault, it would have been Trump's fault if he had been in power as he planned to execute the same idiotic policy.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=nonniey;1287885]Oh and all the other news sites too (Even CNN). It's not like it is only right leaning media and politicians blaming him for this it is just about all media and politicians left and right. Yeah it was Biden's fault, it would have been Trump's fault if he had been in power as he planned to execute the same idiotic policy.[/quote]

Do you think FOX would come down on trump like everyone has done Biden?? (rightfully so)

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[QUOTE=Giantone;1287907]Do you think FOX would come down on trump like everyone has done Biden?? (rightfully so)[/QUOTE]


No fuckin way.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[QUOTE=nonniey;1287885]Oh and all the other news sites too (Even CNN). It's not like it is only right leaning media and politicians blaming him for this it is just about all media and politicians left and right. Yeah it was Biden's fault, it would have been Trump's fault if he had been in power as he planned to execute the same idiotic policy.[/QUOTE]


Ill keep repeating myself Trump would have walked away and possibly had a ceremony in the rose garden to celebrate amid the ensuing chaos. Fox would have been playing hail to the chief as they floated a possible nobel peace prize. At least Biden is not ignoring the situation. Trump would have flown 1000 Americans out and said it was all fake news and a witch hunt.
See the insurrection. See the kurds. See rocket man. See hate crimes that were at a boiling point because of his mouth. I agree it was a fuck up none the less. Trump would have done the same as you have said many times and would not have tried to make it right.
Biden should be expressing major remorse about his decision at this point besides what he is doing behind the scenes to try and make it right though. Im thoroughly disappointed in the way he is still talking about the mess.