Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=skinsfanthru&thru;1061138]To be honest I'd rather give the money for Orakpo towards Byrd. Safety has been an much bigger area of weakness for several years now for us and I feel there are players on the market and in the draft we could get to fill orakpos spot. Like I've said before I'd love to keep the guy but he's misguided thinking he should be getting paid D.Ware type money.[/quote]

So let me get this straight; you want to let our best defensive player, a guy who's proven he can perform at a high level on our defense, walk, while giving a huge contract to a FA safety who we don't even know would perform at a high level on our defense?

That sounds like a championship recipe to me.

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;1061191][url=http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=10544512]NFL Redskins to franchise Brian Orakpo - ESPN[/url]

Here is Kiem's article link.[/quote]

Excellent; I would have preferred a long-term deal, but this is better than letting him walk. Orakpo is our defense's best player and we need him if we want to build a good defense.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=Mattyk;1061175]That's certainly glossing over things. Many other factors at play.[/quote]

Agreed. But Jackson, although not the pass rusher or athlete that Rak is, just seemed to make more plays. I think we all want him back, but not for 10-12 million a year.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

To improve our pass rush (and add to Orakpo's value) we need to get more push out of our DE's. My plans would include improving this position.

1. Ideally, I would sign either Randy Starks or Michael Johnson.

or

2. If Brandon Jenkins is ready to handle 3rd down pash rushing duties, I'd move Ryan Kerrigan inside against a guard on obvious passing downs.

3. Hopefully, Chris Baker will lose some weight and gain some speed and quickness to help with his pass rush. Jarvis Jenkins might improve, as well, in his second season after knee surgery.

4. Carriker and Bowen need to be cut to clear more cap space.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[B]@HTTR24_7

Assuming Werder's report is true, I hate the fact that Haz won out over Morroco & Scott.How do you let a coach who could be gone in a year have that pull? [/B]


/agree


Haz shouldn't have any say so.


[quote=Chico23231;1061195]Httr24-7 saying the tag to Rak would be A Danny boy move, saying reaks of Dan still meddling. I personally wouldn't have a problem with it.[/quote]

When did he say that?

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

Skins Twitter just announced we tagged him

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;1061234] Hell we won the division without 18mil of cap space[/quote]


...and we won it WITHOUT Orakpo.

[QUOTE=NC_Skins;1061254][B]@HTTR24_7

Assuming Werder's report is true, I hate the fact that Haz won out over Morroco & Scott.How do you let a coach who could be gone in a year have that pull? [/B]


/agree


Haz shouldn't have any say so.
...[/QUOTE]

I guess you could argue if Haz has one year to make or break it, then in terms of a 1yr tag he ought to get a big say, unless the scouts are saying an option is out there that provides a significant long term upgrade.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

This is going to be a complete failure of a coaching staff. I do not expect this staff to last long.

[url=http://www.csnwashington.com/football-washington-redskins/talk/redskins-apply-franchise-tag-orakpo]Redskins apply franchise tag to Orakpo | Comcast SportsNet Washington[/url]


No way in fucking hell should Haz have ANY say so. ANY. Hell, the guy shouldn't even have a job now.



[IMG]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m26nvnNG5o1qkk10ro1_500.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1061258]This is going to be a complete failure of a coaching staff. I do not expect this staff to last long.

[URL="http://www.csnwashington.com/football-washington-redskins/talk/redskins-apply-franchise-tag-orakpo"]Redskins apply franchise tag to Orakpo | Comcast SportsNet Washington[/URL]


No way in fucking hell should Haz have ANY say so. ANY. Hell, the guy shouldn't even have a job now.[/quote]
Yeah, you are so right. The defensive Coordinator should have no say in his players. Especialy when it is a one year deal and he may only be there one year. Come on MAN, think about what are you saying.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;1061261]Yeah, you are so right. The defensive Coordinator should have no say in his players. Especialy when it is a one year deal and he may only be there one year. Come on MAN, think about what are you saying.[/quote]

If he were a good defensive coordinator, I might would agree with you.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1061254][B]@HTTR24_7

Assuming Werder's report is true, I hate the fact that Haz won out over Morroco & Scott.How do you let a coach who could be gone in a year have that pull? [/B]


/agree


Haz shouldn't have any say so.


[/quote]

Just to play devil's advocate here, while at the same time ignoring the fact that I dislike Ed Werder, I think one of the reasons Haz might have that kind of pull is the fact that in previous years he never had that pull. The impression I got from Haz sticking around (aside from JG's familiarity with him) was that he was never given a fair shot to run the defense his way with Shanny at the helm. Maybe they are giving him the opportunity to build and run the defense the way he wants this time around, with the threat of firing him if he really is as bad of a coordinator as fans believe. If Haz wants Rak back, so be it. And besides, I have a laundry list of reasons I believe it's good to tag Rak now. Let's say in 2014 Rak has a subpar season:

- Less pressure to resign Rak given the fact he'll be 30 next year and coming off a subpar season.
- If the tag was applied and no deal was reached, it would clear 11 million off the books next year.
- If the cap goes to it's projected amount, that's another 10 mil in cap space we get.
- We have many holes to fill this year, if the offseason goes as expected and we fill most if not all of those holes this year, we delay the opening of a hole by a year when there should be less holes to fill.
- We also get a first round pick back in 2015.

Whereas if we don't tag him now and he walks in free agency (I mean people are delirious if they don't think at least one team will offer him a huge deal in FA, because that happens every single year. If a guy like Paul Kruger can get a 50 mil contract last year it shouldn't be hard to imagine what kind of deal Rak will get offered) that's yet another hole we have to fill, in addition to major holes like o-line and safeties, to our 2nd mlb hole as well as our supposed lack of weapons at wr for Griff hole. And can't forget if Riley walks, that's 2 mlb's we need.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=SirLK26;1061248]So let me get this straight; you want to let our best defensive player, a guy who's proven he can perform at a high level on our defense, walk, while giving a huge contract to a FA safety who we don't even know would perform at a high level on our defense?

That sounds like a championship recipe to me.



Excellent; I would have preferred a long-term deal, but this is better than letting him walk. Orakpo is our defense's best player and we need him if we want to build a good defense.[/quote]

The thing is though that he hasn't performed at a level warranting around 10 million a year. As I've stated a couple times before, he's someone I want to keep but only for the right price. His price tag could pay for a serviceable replacement like retaining Jackson, two new starting olinemen, and maybe even a replacement for Fletcher.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

10 mil a year for a 10 sack guy who plays alot of coverage is about the norm in the NFL and in comgin years will go up to 12-13 mil a year. The economics of the NFL are changing with the increase in the salary cap.

When RG III's deal comes up in 2015 with a projected cap in the 150 mil range, he will be paid (well as long as we see 2 years of 2012 RG III) the richest contract for any player in the history of the NFL.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

If someone can tell me who we are replacing Rak with, then I would be more inclined to let him walk.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1061285]If someone can tell me who we are replacing Rak with, then I would be more inclined to let him walk.[/quote]

Rob Jackson... the man who gets suspended coming off his best season and who has less career sacks than Orakpo had last season.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=donofriose;1061286]Rob Jackson... the man who gets suspended coming off his best season and who has less career sacks than Orakpo had last season.[/quote]

Oh ok, makes sense then

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=donofriose;1061286]Rob Jackson... the man who gets suspended coming off his best season and who has less career sacks than Orakpo had last season.[/quote]

I know you're being sarcastic, but Jackson is a cheap plug and play option but you could also go Jason Worilds for a long term option or Shaun Phillips for a year or two.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=skinsfanthru&thru;1061290]I know you're being sarcastic, but Jackson is a cheap plug and play option but you could also go Jason Worilds for a long term option or Shaun Phillips for a year or two.[/quote]

Yeah.....No

Wow. Browns tagged Mack! LT money for a center

Schefter saying transition tag for Mack. That makes more sense.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1061254][B]@HTTR24_7

Assuming Werder's report is true, I hate the fact that Haz won out over Morroco & Scott.How do you let a coach who could be gone in a year have that pull? [/B]


/agree


Haz shouldn't have any say so.




When did he say that?[/quote]

Around 11-ish on twitter off the top of the head.

How do we know haz won over those 2? Can we confirm that? I think the d coordinator should have a large voice in the decision IMO.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1061285]If someone can tell me who we are replacing Rak with, then I would be more inclined to let him walk.[/quote]

No real good options

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;1061291]Yeah.....No[/quote]

Agree to disagree. In a heartbeat I'd take either of those two and 2-3 other starters for the money they are looking at paying Orakpo.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=Chico23231;1061295]Around 11-ish on twitter off the top of the head.

How do we know haz won over those 2? Can we confirm that? I think the d coordinator should have a large voice in the decision IMO.[/quote]

Yeah I'm not sure why the coaches being involved is a problem. I would think most front offices around the league rely on staff opinions to a degree. In the end the front office still makes the decision. But coaches offering their recommendations is pretty standard procedure.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=Chico23231;1061296]No real good options[/quote]


the real problem is depending on 1 or 2 players to pressure the QB. If you can create some pressure from the front 3, and all the LBs, then you would not need to pay 1 player $$$$$$$

in a good 3-4 all the LBs are a threat to sack the QB


or switch to a 4-3

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=Irrefutable;1061302]the real problem is depending on 1 or 2 players to pressure the QB. If you can create some pressure from the front 3, and all the LBs, then you would not need to pay 1 player $$$$$$$

in a good 3-4 all the LBs are a threat to sack the QB


or switch to a 4-3[/quote]

They're not a good 3-4, the nickel 4-3 isn't good either. No pressure when needed, except for the Raider game.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

Saw a few things. One was that orak is not elite because he has no third move lol@that. Freeney had one move.. Guess he wasnt elite either and thats just one example. Raks a force im glad we tagged him. Another was he doesnt show up vs nfc east.. Go back an look at tape.. Thats all just do that.

Welcome back orak!!!

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=skinsfanthru&thru;1061297]Agree to disagree. In a heartbeat I'd take either of those two and 2-3 other starters for the money they are looking at paying Orakpo.[/quote]

Let's see how much Jason W. gets. As for R.Jax, good guy - he has how many sacks?

- Tagging Rak is not going to cost us any free agents we want.
- Rather overpay a homegrown guy than an import.
- Still not seeing anyone suggest a legitimate replacement who could step in and provide what Rak does.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1061370]Let's see how much Jason W. gets. As for R.Jax, good guy - he has how many sacks?

- Tagging Rak is not going to cost us any free agents we want.
- Rather overpay a homegrown guy than an import.
- Still not seeing anyone suggest a legitimate replacement who could step in and provide what Rak does.[/quote]

You better stop making sense, we talked about that.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1061370]Let's see how much Jason W. gets. As for R.Jax, good guy - he has how many sacks?

- Tagging Rak is not going to cost us any free agents we want.
- Rather overpay a homegrown guy than an import.
- Still not seeing anyone suggest a legitimate replacement who could step in and provide what Rak does.[/quote]

How wouldn't he?

Why?

DeMarcus Ware

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1061372]How wouldn't he?

Why?

DeMarcus Ware[/quote]

Ware? you seen the last 2 seasons? He looks like he is broke and i think they find a way for him to finish out in Dallas

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1061258]This is going to be a complete failure of a coaching staff. I do not expect this staff to last long.

[url=http://www.csnwashington.com/football-washington-redskins/talk/redskins-apply-franchise-tag-orakpo]Redskins apply franchise tag to Orakpo | Comcast SportsNet Washington[/url]


No way in fucking hell should Haz have ANY say so. ANY. Hell, the guy shouldn't even have a job now.



[IMG]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m26nvnNG5o1qkk10ro1_500.jpg[IMG][/quote]

Classy post. You just wanted an excuse to post a giant stick man.

Seriously, T.O. Killa is right. No matter what you think of our defensive coordinator, if he has no say in player personnel, he'll have no chance to succeed and make it work.

I really believe a lot of what caused Haslett to flame out so badly the last seasons was the cap penalty. The defense really got the worst of it after signing some players on offense first, like Garcon and Morgan. After that, there was simply no money left on defensive players that were even starter quality. When he has to start a back end with players no other team even wanted when on the market like Meriweather and Madeiu Williams...you really think he can do his job?

I was in the camp of wanting to see what Haslett can do with a full cap and competitive roster...here's his chance. Our defense DID make some nice goal line stands and got a ton of turnovers and sacks...they just could not consistently stop a team every play and gave up big play. You can attribute that weakness to the safeties and lack of overall defensive depth when we had injuries. Haslett did have some good moments with this poor excuse of a depth chart and I think he can do better now. He comes up with some looks and blitzes that no one else uses, he has the smarts, just not the players.

Now if his defense doesn't improve dramatically this season, good bye. Experiment over.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1061372]How wouldn't he?

Why?

DeMarcus Ware[/quote]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but:

1) Because there is still plenty of cap room to sign an additional impact player or two along with solid mid-level guys who can upgrade our OL and DB's.

2) Because it shows a commitment to the team building and cuts down on the "show-me-the-money" attitude in the locker room. I can remember several comments from former players upset that new guys were brought in but the FO let good players walk. (A. Pierce, R.Clark - old, but good, examples).

3) Well, let see if D.Ware hits the market before we talk about plugging him in.

Also, Worilds got a transition tag of 9.75M. Signing him away from the Steelers is easily going to match what we tagged Rak with. Worilds was in a contract year and did well. Not quite the same as the consistent "very goodness" of Rak.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=donofriose;1061286]Rob Jackson... the man who gets suspended coming off his best season and who has less career sacks than Orakpo had last season.[/quote]Jackson has more INTs though. Looking at stats for [URL="http://www.nfl.com/player/brianorakpo/71423/profile"]Orakpo[/URL] and [URL="http://www.nfl.com/player/robjackson/4515/profile"]Jackson[/URL], Rak's tackling numbers are just as impressive as his sacks, to me. But so much depends on how each player was used to drop back or not, and that Rak was the starter not Jackson.

As far as the suspension: [URL="http://news.fredericksburg.com/redskinsjournal/2013/09/30/jarvis-jenkins-rob-jackson-reinstated-from-suspension/"]Jackson was suspended on March 20 after he violated the league’s policy on substances of abuse. He said he took a medication containing codeine that was not prescribed to him to deal with a toothache near the end of last season.[/URL] Jackson's been with us awhile with no other incidents, right? I believe he'll be more like Trent Williams, not Fred Davis, and has found a niche in our 3-4 where we can let Rak go if needed, and upgrade other positions.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

Would signing D.Ware be any cheaper than signing Rak?

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=Lotus;1061459]Would signing D.Ware be any cheaper than signing Rak?[/quote]

SS has to be joking or Vinny hijacked his brain or SS is in a Kush Coma. Ware is done and is getting something like 15 mil per. I dont want that problem.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=Chico23231;1061462]SS has to be joking or Vinny hijacked his brain or SS is in a Kush Coma. Ware is done and is getting something like 15 mil per. I dont want that problem.[/quote]

I wouldn't have brought up his name if it hadn't been mentioned as a possibility. Plus if the Cowboys cut him he's unlikely to get 15 mil on his next contract

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1061469]I wouldn't have brought up his name if it hadn't been mentioned as a possibility. Plus if the Cowboys cut him he's unlikely to get 15 mil on his next contract[/quote]

To me there had to be a better option than D Ware. I mean even half of 15 would be too much, isnt he 32? Thats a Snyretto old school special, and not a smart move. This makes me feel even better about the tag to Rak

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1061469]I wouldn't have brought up his name if it hadn't been mentioned as a possibility. Plus if the Cowboys cut him he's unlikely to get 15 mil on his next contract[/quote]

Well, assuming Ware is released:

(1) Straight up, Ware v. Rak: Who do you want on your team for the next 3 years?

(2) What is your expected value of Ware and why?

I recognize no one is going to pay him 15M, but, as is the course, I expect [I]someone[/I] will make an over the market bid for him (it only takes one team) and that he will command something in the neighborhood of a 5 year contract averaging 7-8M/year with about 20M in guarantees (essentially a 3 year contract) OR a straight up 1 year contract in the range of 8M (give or take) guaranteed.

(3) Assuming Ware at 8M for the year and Rak at 11M, who for this year and what's the plan for the position [I]after[/I] Ware's one year.

(4) Assuming 3 years of Ware at 20M guaranteed and cap hits in the 8M range, would you take that rather than Rak for a real 5 year contract that has about 35M in guarantees and a 10M/year hit in the first 3 years?

Putting in your own numbers - assuming they differ from mine - for (3) and (4), what is your comparison of the Ware v. Rak in the short and longer terms?

Finally, I know you were just throwing out Ware as a possibility, assuming Ware doesn't get released:

(5) What is your post Rak plan? Jackson?

(6) Do you see Rak testing the market and not getting buckets of money thrown at him?

If it isn't clear, I am on the "don't quibble" train. Is Rak worth 11-13M/year? Not based on past performance.

At the same time, to replace him with someone of equal or better quality is going to end up costing either very close to that amount or more. Even if we resign R.Jax, I suspect we will need someone to provide better pass rush than he does. Without doing film study and just basing it on a few of his plays over the past 2 years, it seems to me R.Jax is better in space than Rak, but, in every other aspect of their respective games, Rak is head and shoulders above R.Jax.

Ultimately, for me, it really comes down to value at the position, replacement cost and the preference to slightly overpay for a homegrown as opposed to an import. Rak is not elite, he lacks a lot of game changing plays and he disappears at times. With that said, he is consistently very good, he seems well liked by his teammates, by all credible reports he is not a "me-first" guy and he has fantastic measurables. Balancing all of this, I see replacing Rak as a choice between: (1) Paying a premium for someone or some-several-ones who may or may not bring his consistency to the table; (2) A stop-gap moderately priced filler (R.Jax or an R.Jax type player) who will be much cheap but will be a significant drop off in talent from Rak; or (3) A huge hole to fill that simply is not adequately addressed.

Sure, I'd like the cheap Ferrari but don't see that happening so I'll go with the moderately overpriced Porsche. "A bird in the hand ..." and all that.

Re: Current 2014 Free Agents
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1061477]Well, assuming Ware is released:

(1) Straight up, Ware v. Rak: Who do you want on your team for the next 3 years?

(2) What is your expected value of Ware and why?

I recognize no one is going to pay him 15M, but, as is the course, I expect [I]someone[/I] will make an over the market bid for him (it only takes one team) and that he will command something in the neighborhood of a 5 year contract averaging 7-8M/year with about 20M in guarantees (essentially a 3 year contract) OR a straight up 1 year contract in the range of 8M (give or take) guaranteed.

(3) Assuming Ware at 8M for the year and Rak at 11M, who for this year and what's the plan for the position [I]after[/I] Ware's one year.

(4) Assuming 3 years of Ware at 20M guaranteed and cap hits in the 8M range, would you take that rather than Rak for a real 5 year contract that has about 35M in guarantees and a 10M/year hit in the first 3 years?

Putting in your own numbers - assuming they differ from mine - for (3) and (4), what is your comparison of the Ware v. Rak in the short and longer terms?

Finally, I know you were just throwing out Ware as a possibility, assuming Ware doesn't get released:

(5) What is your post Rak plan? Jackson?

(6) Do you see Rak testing the market and not getting buckets of money thrown at him?

If it isn't clear, I am on the "don't quibble" train. Is Rak worth 11-13M/year? Not based on past performance.

At the same time, to replace him with someone of equal or better quality is going to end up costing either very close to that amount or more. Even if we resign R.Jax, I suspect we will need someone to provide better pass rush than he does. Without doing film study and just basing it on a few of his plays over the past 2 years, it seems to me R.Jax is better in space than Rak, but, in every other aspect of their respective games, Rak is head and shoulders above R.Jax.

Ultimately, for me, it really comes down to value at the position, replacement cost and the preference to slightly overpay for a homegrown as opposed to an import. Rak is not elite, he lacks a lot of game changing plays and he disappears at times. With that said, he is consistently very good, he seems well liked by his teammates, by all credible reports he is not a "me-first" guy and he has fantastic measurables. Balancing all of this, I see replacing Rak as a choice between: (1) Paying a premium for someone or some-several-ones who may or may not bring his consistency to the table; (2) A stop-gap moderately priced filler (R.Jax or an R.Jax type player) who will be much cheap but will be a significant drop off in talent from Rak; or (3) A huge hole to fill that simply is not adequately addressed.
Sure, I'd like the cheap Ferrari but don't see that happening so I'll go with the moderately overpriced Porsche. "A bird in the hand ..." and all that.[/quote]

All good points. Ultimately mine is, we are not a good enough team and he's not a good enough player to offer $11MM plus just like that. I hope a reasonable restructure occurs.