Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=Bishop Hammer;1129994]He is closer to the rookie end due to sitting on the bench most of his first couple years in the league. .[/quote]To each their own.

Kirk has 4 years in the NFL and has started some games every season. Those 4 years of experience, practice, team meetings separate him from a rookie. On top of that he's had an unusual amount of organizational support for 4th round QB.

Grading Kirk on a rookie level, due to growing pains, imo isn't the correct prism to view his performance.

Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[QUOTE=30gut;1130050]To each their own.



Kirk has 4 years in the NFL and has started some games every season. Those 4 years of experience, practice, team meetings separate him from a rookie. On top of that he's had an unusual amount of organizational support for 4th round QB.



Grading Kirk on a rookie level, due to growing pains, imo isn't the correct prism to view his performance.[/QUOTE]


Started 9 games in his first three years. Played in 14. No matter how you cut it when this year began he had not even "appeared" in one entire seasons worth of games. That is all the experience he has had. Team meetings? Really? Lmao.
Edit : grading him as a veteran due to team meetings and lunch with the guys is hardly the correct prism for viewing his performance either. Like Brody said he is "closer" to being a rookie. No matter how many times he has used the bathroom at Redskins Park, or sharpened his pencils, or parked in the players only parking lot, or.....

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=30gut;1130050]To each their own.

Kirk has 4 years in the NFL and has started some games every season. Those 4 years of experience, practice, team meetings separate him from a rookie. On top of that he's had an unusual amount of organizational support for 4th round QB.

Grading Kirk on a rookie level, due to growing pains, imo isn't the correct prism to view his performance.[/quote]

You may be shocked to know that I actually agree with you on this point. I don't think of Kirk as having the equivalent experience of a rookie starter. IMHO, he has certainly had more time and opportunity to develop than a rookie.

On another point, Coach Gruden has declared the upcoming game versus the Giants a "must win" game. Let's see how Kirk does under this type of pressure. At present, I think Kirk is probably a mid-tier NFL QB whereas you think he has more to prove before he is re-signed to be our starter. One of us may change his mind based on how he performs on Sunday. I hope it's not me.

Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[QUOTE=KI Skins Fan;1130055]You may be shocked to know that I actually agree with you on this point. I don't think of Kirk as having the equivalent experience of a rookie starter. IMHO, he has certainly had more time and opportunity to develop than a rookie.



On another point, Coach Gruden has declared the upcoming game versus the Giants a "must win" game. Let's see how Kirk does under this type of pressure. At present, I think Kirk is probably a mid-tier NFL QB whereas you think he has more to prove before he is re-signed to be our starter. One of us may change his mind based on how he performs on Sunday. I hope it's not me.[/QUOTE]


Nobody is saying he is a rookie. We are saying he is closer to a rookie than a 4 year veteran. All of his "time" as a Redskins has been under two different coaching staffs and loaded with the baggage that is RG-3.
Edit: nothing garners experience like playing time. Nothing. Not team meetings or your face printed on football cards or anything.
The fact he is showing any improvement at all is no surprise as it is his first year actually playing all of it.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

On a timeline of development with rookie on one end and veteran on the other, I'd put him right in the middle.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=Mattyk;1130058]On a timeline of development with rookie on one end and veteran on the other, I'd put him right in the middle.[/quote]

That may be a fair way to look at it. All of us would like to think that he has a higher ceiling.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk;1130058]On a timeline of development with rookie on one end and veteran on the other, I'd put him right in the middle.[/QUOTE]


You should run for office. Lol

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=punch it in;1130061]You should run for office. Lol[/quote]

"I feel strongly both ways."

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=punch it in;1130053]Started 9 games in his first three years. Played in 14. No matter how you cut it when this year began he had not even "appeared" in one entire seasons worth of games. That is all the experience he has had.[/quote]Is that more experience then a rookie?

[quote]Edit : grading him as a veteran due to team meetings and lunch with the guys is hardly the correct prism for viewing his performance either...[/quote]You can grade him however you like.

Lol, dismiss practice time, team meetings and QB meetings as inconsequential. Lol. For me grading him as a rookie or close to rookie is giving him a pass because factually he has more actual NFL playing experience then a rookie.

No need to go round and round about it.
We disagree.

[quote][QUOTE=punch it in;1130056]Nobody is saying he is a rookie.[/quote]...Well...[quote=punch it in;1129907]..... For a "rookie" which we can argue about all we want, he is playing quite well all things considered...[/quote][/QUOTE]

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=punch it in;1130061]You should run for office. Lol[/quote]

Well, even comparing him to a rookie is a little ridiculous IMO. And obviously he's not there yet in terms of playing time, but meetings, practices, camps, etc., do count for something.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=Bishop Hammer;1129994]Kirk is not a rookie but he is not an experienced veteran either...[/quote]So we agree.

Also, didn't think this needed to be said but I'll state it clearly here.

Saying that Kirk is not a rookie is not the same as saying he's an experienced veteran.

There is room in between its not an either/or question.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[url=http://espn.go.com/nfl/standings]2015 NFL Regular Season Standings - National Football League[/url]

We rank 25th in rushing yards per game.

We rank 24th in points allowed per game.

He has set franchise passing records this year.

He lead 2 game winning drives and 1 game tying drive with less than 2 minutes left in the 4th quarter.

Nobody is saying he is the second coming of Christ.

But, if a killer defense and a brutal running game can prop up Kapernick and Wilson, maybe, just maybe it could turn a QB who is setting passing records into a consistent winner.

For those saying he has something to prove, who do you want to replace him with?

The mock drafts are out there, everybody has a good idea of who the FA are going to be after this year. So name some names already.

Who do you want to start from scratch with next year?

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=DYoungJelly;1130068]...But, if a killer defense and a brutal running game can prop up Kapernick and Wilson, maybe, just maybe it could turn a QB who is setting passing records into a consistent winner.[/quote]First I want to say that sure maybe a killer defense and a brutal running game could prop up Cousins. That could happen.

But when you say 'prop up Kaep and Wilson' I think you are doing them a disservice. They weren't innocent bystanders to their team's SB runs. Both of them contributed to directly (rushing yards) and indirectly (limiting the backside pursuit on run plays) to making the 'brutal running game'. And its the running game/time of possension and those QB's respective lack of turnovers that actually [I]helped[/I] those defenses excel.

Football is such a team sport, everything is interconnected. In your analogy Kirk doesn't provide the same contribution to the run game nor the lack of turnovers of Kaep and Russ. Also Kirk has opportunity to set passing records because of this staff's focus on the passing game. He's 10th in attempts in the league.

[quote]For those saying he has something to prove, who do you want to replace him with?[/quote]You realize saying he has something to prove doesn't mean he shouldn't be re-signed at the end of year. Like the FO, some prefer to wait and see before making a decision....and hopefully starting from scratch won't happen.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

see the Giants pregame thread, but KC is an inconsistent NFL capable QB. I doubt that changes. IF we had a consistent NFL capable QB on our roster, we would be in first place. We don't. Is there one in this year's draft - very likely. Nearly every draft has one or two qb's in there somewhere,
2014 Blake Bortles, Derek Carr, T Bridgwater all look real
2013 Landry, maybe Barkley
2012 :( Wilson, Luck
2011 Newton Dalton Yates (maybe)
2010 ok maybe not this one Unless we say Colt McCoy...
2009 Stafford, maybe Sanchez (not really though)
2008 Ryan, Flacco,

So hopefully our scouting dept, both Pro and College, are being diligent in their searches, and we get a couple real alternatives in here for next season.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=30gut;1130069]But when you say 'prop up Kaep and Wilson' I think you are doing them a disservice. They weren't innocent bystanders to their team's SB runs. Both of them contributed to directly (rushing yards) and indirectly (limiting the backside pursuit on run plays) to making the 'brutal running game'. And its the running game/time of possension and those QB's respective lack of turnovers that actually [I]helped[/I] those defenses excel.
[/quote]

They had the same two QB's under center at the beginning of the year and now Seattle is 5-5 and SF is 3-7.

Wilson is .500 with the second best defense in the league and the most rushing yards per game in the league:

[url=http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense]2015 NFL Team Total Stats - National Football League - ESPN[/url]

He has underperformed even after the team went out and acquired arguably the most difficult TE in the league to cover.

Kap has been benched because he is basically RGIII. The curtain was finally pulled down to reveal the real OZ.

Kirk is a game off Wilson with 24th ranked D and 25th ranked rushing yards per game.

I'm sticking with "propped up."

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

I'm confused DY, doesn't your post above prove my point?

During their SB runs Kaep and Russ contributed to their teams success. They played better then they are now. Without their outstanding QB play in during their team's SB runs those teams aren't as good.

Meaning Kirk or whomever the QB that is coupled with a run game and defense still has to do their part to make a run. It takes more then merely 'propping' up and right now Kirk hasn't shown the production those QBs did then. (not saying that he can't get there but that he hasn't done it yet).

Even with "great" run game and defense it still takes very good QB play to make a SB run.
Football is and will always be a team sport.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

Any number of QBs could have been plugged into the SF and Seattle teams over the past few years and had huge success.

Only one or two QBs could have won last year with the Patriots.

The surrounding cast of the SF and Seattle teams made both of those guys look much better than they actually are.

The only Seattle game I've watched this year was the first one against the Rams and Greg with two Gs made it look like Wilson couldn't read defenses very much like RGIII and Kap.

I think Kap and Wilson played extremely well during their runs much like RGIII did in 2012, just without the devastating injury. It has taken a a little more time to figure the other two out.

I also believe it is easier to play as well as they did when you have a pro bowl running back, and 2 pro bowl offensive lineman on each respective team when making the run. Plus, they had to score 19 points a game to win.

It's hard to not be good when that happens, Wilson is pulling it off this year though.

I think they were propped up. They will never have that type of success again because it is highly unlikely that either will develop the skills for success without a great defense and great running game.

EDIT:

To sum it up, I don't think either is a good QB, I do think they both played at a high level during their respective runs. I also think, Wilson has a slickness that Kap doesn't have that makes him better than Kap.

I wouldn't build a team around either guy. I think Kaps team friendly contract was smart, I think Wilson's was stupid and I'm glad Seattle paid him what they did.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1130073]see the Giants pregame thread, but KC is an inconsistent NFL capable QB. I doubt that changes. IF we had a consistent NFL capable QB on our roster, we would be in first place. We don't. Is there one in this year's draft - very likely. Nearly every draft has one or two qb's in there somewhere,
2014 Blake Bortles, Derek Carr, T Bridgwater all look real
2013 Landry, maybe Barkley
2012 :( Wilson, Luck
2011 Newton Dalton Yates (maybe)
2010 ok maybe not this one Unless we say Colt McCoy...
2009 Stafford, maybe Sanchez (not really though)
2008 Ryan, Flacco,

So hopefully our scouting dept, both Pro and College, are being diligent in their searches, and we get a couple real alternatives in here for next season.[/quote]

You gotta be kidding when you say we'd be in first place if we had a better QB. The entire team got their asses kicked in our losses, except for the Atlanta game which we wouldn't even have been in at the end if Kirk hadn't driven the team to a score with 24 seconds left on the clock.

Barkley, Yates, and Sanchez? Again, you must be kidding. None of them is fit to wash Kirk's dirty uniform. Landry is unproven. Bortles is no better than Kirk. If it's so easy to pick a starting caliber QB, why was Wilson picked in the 3rd round?

You may not think so, but we've got bigger problems at other positions.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=30gut;1130069]You realize saying he has something to prove doesn't mean he shouldn't be re-signed at the end of year. [B]Like the FO[/B], some prefer to wait and see before making a decision....and hopefully starting from scratch won't happen.[/quote]

The FO has already had preliminary talks with Kirk's agent concerning a new contract. Maybe you're not like the FO, after all.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1130081]The FO has already had preliminary talks with Kirk's agent concerning a new contract. Maybe you're not like the FO, after all.[/quote]Oh, was there a contract signed? Or are they waiting?

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

DY you are making my point when you admit they played at a high level during their SB runs.

Even with a defense and a run game the QB still has to do more then merely be propped up to have a SB run.
It seemed like you were trying to diminish their play in their respective SB runs and equating their success with Kirks ability to have success in the same situation. My point is Kirk has not yet shown the ability to have the success those QBs had in their respective SB runs.

Those QBs current struggles makes my point. The QB has to hold up their end for the whole thing to work. Barring Trent Dilfer a SB contending team has more then a propped up QB.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=30gut;1130083]My point is Kirk has not yet shown the ability to have the success those QBs had in their respective SB runs.[/quote]

You're right, he hasn't had a #1 defense or a #1 rushing game.

If Kap was a good QB he wouldn't be cut at the end of the year.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=DYoungJelly;1130084]You're right, he hasn't had a #1 defense or a #1 rushing game.[/quote]Lol, Wilson rushed for 849 of those rush yards and only threw 7 ints...is Kirk going to do that?

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=30gut;1130087]Lol, Wilson rushed for 849 of those rush yards and only threw 7 ints...is Kirk going to do that?[/quote]

If Kirk had Wilson's running game and Wilson's defense, he would be better than 5-5.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

You win dude.

If you're gonna flat out deny Russ has anything to do with the team's rushing success its hard to have a real discussion about this. No point in even getting into his playmaking, ypa, mediocre receiving corps and spotty OL. Sure, Kirk is as good as Russell Wilson. And because 2 'propped up QBs' made SB runs then we should re-up Kirk right now?

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1130080]You gotta be kidding when you say we'd be in first place if we had a better QB. The entire team got their asses kicked in our losses, except for the Atlanta game which we wouldn't even have been in at the end if Kirk hadn't driven the team to a score with 24 seconds left on the clock.

Barkley, Yates, and Sanchez? Again, you must be kidding. None of them is fit to wash Kirk's dirty uniform. Landry is unproven. Bortles is no better than Kirk. If it's so easy to pick a starting caliber QB, why was Wilson picked in the 3rd round?

You may not think so, but we've got bigger problems at other positions.[/quote]

I do know we have bigger problems. Didn't say we don't. But the division is so crappy that with 1 or 2 non disaster games from KC we would be in first. Heck, beat the Giants in the first game, and we are in first.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=30gut;1130089]You win dude.

If you're gonna flat out deny Russ has anything to do with the team's rushing success its hard to have a real discussion about this. No point in even getting into his playmaking, ypa, mediocre receiving corps and spotty OL. Sure, Kirk is as good as Russell Wilson. And because 2 'propped up QBs' made SB runs then we should re-up Kirk right now?[/quote]

That isn't close to what I said. Cheers.

Kap and Wilson contributed to their teams' success in the same way that RGIII made the 2012 run possible.

The former QBs had the benefit of top defenses as well and went further in my opinion as a result. Also, RGIII's injuries cut his run short compared to the other two. It has taken the league a little more time to catch up to the other two.

I believe that other QBs could have been inserted in either Kap or Wilson's slot during those years and had the same or similar success. (Case in point Alex Smith, who I would consider average.)

I believe that their ability to run, the 4 pro bowlers on their Olines and the two probowl RBs masked a lot of their deficiencies.

Not to say they didn't play well because they did, but many QBs would have success in that situation.

They are now being exposed for what they really are.

The reasons we should sign Kirk have nothing to do with them other than he has been in the polar opposite situation to those guys.

He doesn't have a running game or pro-bowl running backs or a top 3 defense to keep him from playing from behind.

The FO and GM have been able to see what Kirk really is without the benefit of those crutches propping him up. He has been average to above average and has had flashes of brilliance in the worst of situations.

Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[QUOTE=KI Skins Fan;1130080]You gotta be kidding when you say we'd be in first place if we had a better QB. The entire team got their asses kicked in our losses, except for the Atlanta game which we wouldn't even have been in at the end if Kirk hadn't driven the team to a score with 24 seconds left on the clock.



Barkley, Yates, and Sanchez? Again, you must be kidding. None of them is fit to wash Kirk's dirty uniform. Landry is unproven. Bortles is no better than Kirk. If it's so easy to pick a starting caliber QB, why was Wilson picked in the 3rd round?



You may not think so, but we've got bigger problems at other positions.[/QUOTE]


Right on. If not for Cousins this game on Sunday would mean dick because we would be about 1-9.
We would be in first place if we had half a run defense has such a better jingle to it.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

Agian i agree 10000% with you!!

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

We have lots of issues right now. Our QB is not one of them for once.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=DYoungJelly;1130093]Kap and Wilson contributed to their teams' success in the same way that RGIII made the 2012 run possible.

...I believe that other QBs could have been inserted in either Kap or Wilson's slot during those years and had the same or similar success. (Case in point Alex Smith, who I would consider average.)

I believe that their ability to run, the 4 pro bowlers on their Olines and the two probowl RBs masked a lot of their deficiencies.

Not to say they didn't play well because they did, but many QBs would have success in that situation.

The reasons we should sign Kirk have nothing to do with them other than he has been in the polar opposite situation to those guys.

He doesn't have a running game or pro-bowl running backs or a top 3 defense to keep him from playing from behind.[/quote]You said their performances were propped up by defense and running game right? But you also say they played well. But then you say other QBs would have had success. Its like a moving target.

You're dismissing their production because of team success. (btw Rodgers had the #3 ranked defense when they won the SB, Alex Smith has had a top 5 run game and defense with KC)

Sure the defense helps with team success but their production as QBs is their production. The Seahawks had all the pieces in place prior to Russell. Already had the pieces on defense, already had Marshawn Lynch. But their offense was pedestrian prior to his arrival. Seattle's offense went from 22nd by Football Outsiders to 1st. [B]1st[/B].

Offensively Kirk is in as good position to be productive on offense. (Kirk has a pro-bowler on the OL, and in the backfield also) The weapons on offense are similar, you could argue that Kirk has better weapons now then Russell did then.

But, whatevs...diminish or vacillate on their play in those seasons all you want.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=30gut;1130103]Offensively Kirk is in as good position to be productive on offense. (Kirk has a pro-bowler on the OL, and in the backfield also)[/quote]

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Just like SF and Seattle a few years back!

Every time they are going back to the huddle on 2nd and 9 down 2 scores, that's exactly what I'm thinking.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=30gut;1130103]You said their performances were propped up by defense and running game right? But you also say they played well. But then you say other QBs would have had success. Its like a moving target.[/quote]

Those three things aren't mutually exclusive. It's not a moving target.

1. Their performances were propped up by the defense and the running game.

2. They did play well.

3. Other QBs would have had success with those teams.

All 3 are 100% true.

The incredibly average Alex Smith was 4 points away from a Super Bowl.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=DYoungJelly;1130116]Every time they are going back to the huddle on 2nd and 9 down 2 scores, that's exactly what I'm thinking.[/quote]You really think our personnel on offense is laughably inferior to theirs? Do you remember the Seahawks offense players?

Maybe Kirk just needs to add 800+ yards rushing?

You wanna trade DeSean, Garcon and Reed/Paul for Baldwin, Kearse and Willson/Helfert?

And their OL is everybit as spotty as ours.

And before Jay destroyed the run game Alf ran for 3 consecutive 1,000 yard seasons.

But sure Russ production was propped up by the same defense and run game that produced the 22nd ranked offense the year before and magically jumping to 1st when he took the helm.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=30gut;1130118]You really think our personnel on offense is laughably inferior to theirs? Do you remember the Seahawks offense players?

Maybe Kirk just needs to add 800+ yards rushing?

You wanna trade DeSean, Garcon and Reed/Paul for Baldwin, Kearse and Willson/Helfert?

And their OL is everybit as spotty as ours.

And before Jay destroyed the run game Alf ran for 3 consecutive 1,000 yard seasons.

But sure Russ production was propped up by the same defense and run game that produced the 22nd ranked offense the year before and magically jumping to 1st when he took the helm.[/quote]

It wasn't magic, it was not having Tavaris Jackson and Charlie Whitehurst as the QB anymore.

Wilson was 29th in passing yards per game in 2012: [url=http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/passingYardsPerGame/year/2012]2012 NFL Player Passing Stats - National Football League - ESPN[/url]

They weren't number 1 in PPG, YPG, or total yards or total points. They were number 1 in F.O. DVOA ranking which is a good measure in my opinion.

They were actually 17th in total yards, 17th in yards per game, 9th in total points, and 9th in points per game: [url=http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPointsPerGame/year/2012]2012 NFL Team Total Stats - National Football League - ESPN[/url]

I mean, Rex Grossman could have taken Seattle to a Super Bowl with that defense and run game. He actually did with Chicago.

In the offensive year you're talking about 2012,

Seattle's RB Lynch ranked 2nd
[url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb2012]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | RUNNING BACKS 2012[/url]

And Wilson ranked 8th
[url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2012]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | QUARTERBACKS 2012[/url]

2013 Wilson ranked 9th, Lynch 5th
[url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2013]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | QUARTERBACKS 2013[/url]

2014 Wilson ranked 13th, Lynch 2nd
[url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2014]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | QUARTERBACKS 2014[/url]

2015 Wilson ranks 17th, Lynch 16th
[url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | QUARTERBACKS 2015[/url]

Yes, I think he has been propped up by a hall of fame running back who is the hardest man to get on the ground since Jim Brown. I also believe he has been propped up by the defense.

Wilson has actually declined from year to year while Lynch remained very consistent from 2012 to 2014.

Wilson has ranked below Lynch every year since coming in the league.

When Lynch was injured this year, Wilson wasn't able to rely on his hall of fame RB and he ranks in the bottom half of the league at 17 despite having the #8 D: [url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2015 DEFENSE EFFICIENCY RATINGS[/url]

Compare Wilson's numbers with Kirk Cousins this year:

[url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | QUARTERBACKS 2015[/url]

Kirk ranks 10th, while Alf and Jones are 34th and 26th respectively and our defense is 25th.

Totally agree with Punch, we would be 1-9 without him.

I also think we would be 1-9 with Russell Wilson, or Kap, or RGIII.

Nobody is propping Kirk up this year, and Wilson only has the defense propping him up and you can see what the rankings are.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1130080]You gotta be kidding when you say we'd be in first place if we had a better QB. The entire team got their asses kicked in our losses, except for the Atlanta game which we wouldn't even have been in at the end if Kirk hadn't driven the team to a score with 24 seconds left on the clock.

Barkley, Yates, and Sanchez? Aga|in, you must be kidding. None of them is fit to wash Kirk's dirty uniform. Landry is unproven. Bortles is no better than Kirk. If it's so easy to pick a starting caliber QB, why was Wilson picked in the 3rd round?

You may not think so, but we've got bigger problems at other positions.[/quote]

This. Your were quoting a kirk hater credskinrule, <- you sir are grasping at straws with t-rex arms. Please leave such ramblings to yourself.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

DY-

You are conflating the issue. I have always been talking about how Russ/Kaep played during their SB run. You are jumping around and somehow including your opinion of them this year and your overall opinion of them which both have nothing to do with how they played in those years.
[quote=DYoungJelly;1130119]They weren't number 1 in PPG, YPG, or total yards or total points. They were number 1 in F.O. DVOA ranking which is a good measure in my opinion.[/quote]You're again making my point. The Seahawks offense with roughly the same personnel jumped from 22nd in DVOA to 1st. DVOA is a much better measure of an offense then yards. Yards is impacted for better or worse by the quality or lack there of by the defense. Having a bad defense can mask empty yards and likewise having a good defense can reduce the yards of a good offense, especially passing yards.
But even in raw counting stats Seattles offense jumped with Wilson's arrival from 28th to 17th. And from 21st to 3rd in rushing. How do you account for that jump? Lynch just decided to be a more productive runner when Wilson arrived? How many other QBs can you plug in and have that type of increase? PPG They went from 23rd to 9th.

I don't see anything from the stats, (thats without even getting to his clutch play/game winning drives and playmaking) that shows Wilson's production on offense being propped up.

But, ive prolly already given this discussion more credence then it warranted.

[quote=DY]Nobody is propping Kirk up this year, and Wilson only has the defense propping him up and you can see what the rankings are.[/quote]Well when I look at this offense it looks to me like Kirk is being aided by a passing game designed and called to protect and facilitate his success which has come at the detriment of the run game. And his YPA is close to league worst.

But I get it. You feel better about Kirk by somehow diminishing what Russ and Kaep did in their SB runs.

Either way I'm done, it was a good trytophan induced convo but im exhausted.

If Kirk can become as "propped up" as Wilson was during their SB runs I'll gladly take that kind of propped up prodction from Kirk.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

30gut:

"But, ive prolly already given this discussion more credence then it warranted."

Classic.

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

[quote=30gut;1130121]You are conflating the issue. I have always been talking about how Russ/Kaep played during their SB run. You are jumping around and somehow including your opinion of them this year and your overall opinion of them which both have nothing to do with how they played in those years.[/quote]

[quote=30gut;1130118]You really think our personnel on offense is laughably inferior to theirs? Do you remember the Seahawks offense players?

And their OL is everybit as spotty as ours.[/quote]

Sorry, when you used the present tense, I thought you were referencing the present tense.

Lynch was the #2 running back in the league in 2011: [url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb2011]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | RUNNING BACKS 2011[/url]

The DIFFERENCE WAS RUSSELL WILSON. He came in and was not Tavaris Jackson or Charlie Whitehurst.

Wilson was 29th in the league in 2012 in passing yards per game.

The qualifier is that there are a number of other QBs that could have done the same thing with that team. Rex Grossman's D wasn't even compared to the '85 bears D like Wilson's and he game managed his way to a SB.

As I said earlier, for a team like the Seahawks with a great D and HOF running back, a QB can be 29th in the league in passing yards per game and play well. That's all he had to do to win. Good for him. All QBs should be that lucky.

The proof is in the pudding. Without Lynch, even with the D, Wilson ranks in the bottom half of the league; 17th.

His performance has trended exactly the opposite of what teams want. His F.O. ranking has declined every year even with Lynch; but he has been good enough to win with a HOF RB and the best D.

[quote=30gut;1130121]Well when I look at this offense it looks to me like Kirk is being aided by a passing game designed and called to protect and facilitate his success which has come at the detriment of the run game.[/quote]

It's quotes like this that make me wonder if you're sincere, or just saying crazy stuff to get a reaction.

If they would have propped up RGIII like they are Kirk. . . Infinity and beyond!

Re: Who is Kirk Cousins?
 

DY-
I'm trying hard to move on. Really. But when you hood up simple passing yards as if that's a useful measure of QB performance i gotta call BS.