Re: Our next coach??
 

Here's the article about what Marty had to say....

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2009/12/schottenheimer_on_cerrato.html]D.C. Sports Bog - Schottenheimer on Cerrato[/url]

the thing that sticks out most:

[B][I]"I've said for a long time, in my opinion the problem down there--obviously it starts at the top with Dan--but [the problem] is Cerrato," Schottenheimer said Thursday. "I don't particularly respect the guy. He and I had our issues when we were there. Basically what he said was, 'Marty, Dan may be listening to you during the preseason,' he says. 'But wait until I get up in the owner's box during the regular season, and then we'll see who Dan listens to.'

[/I][/B]

Re: Our next coach??
 

We all know that Snyder wants Shanahan BUT what about the reports that Cerrato may be safe with Shanahan? I would rather blow this thing entirely up and get the right structure in place, even if that meant another 3 years of mediocrity. I have had the last 10 years of mediocrity with Snyder, I can wait another 3. This team is too stupid to realize the wrongs in giving a head coach complete control. Can someone name the last very successful team that had the coach and GM as the same person? I think time and time again it has been shown that that structure does not work. The main problem is if you dont fix the front office structure, you are looking at added time of mediocrity......say repeat the same mistakes, fire the coach in 3 season, then get it right but have to wait another few season for that to pay off. Frustrating? just a little.

Re: Our next coach??
 

I've gone back and forth on Zorn all year, but I'm starting to firm up my view. I think he needs to go.

Going back to the 2nd half of last year is record right now is 5-15. Chew on that for a minute.

The offense only showed improvement when Sherm Lewis was brought in and his playcalling duties were stripped. The guy has no real power or clout in the locker room, it's been pretty clear through his tenure here that Vinny is calling most of the shots and the players know that. Zorn wasn't even able to assemble his own staff.

I love that the team has played their hearts out these last few weeks, but I'm not so sure how much of that credit can really go to Zorn. The players know Zorn is on his way out. Guys are playing hard because they know it's evaluation time for the next staff that comes in, or they are trying to spice up the resume for another team.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=freddyg12;637992]To follow the Martz idea, has anyone mentioned Dick Jauron?

I watched buffalo a few times during his tenure there & it seemed he really got a lot out of a talent challenged team. They always played hard & were tough to beat.[/quote]

Well, I think Dick Jauron also struggled in Chicago. He's another guy who probably isn't seen at this moment as head coach material. Especially not in a major market like DC.

Re: Our next coach??
 

Jauron won't have a problem getting another coordinator job, but he's done at HC.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=freddyg12;637995]Also, has Dennis Green considered coming back to the sideline?[/quote]

He's coaching in the UFL isn't he? He reportedly has no interest in leaving the west coast.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=pdr76;637994]The front office in STL worked completely against each other (major infighting) during Martz's time. His head coaching record is outstanding and I was not his biggest fan but it is hard to argue with the results he produced. In each stop in Detroit and SF, his offense improved dramatically from the year prior to him.

If Lovie Smith stays in Chicago, I could see him helping his old friend out there as OC since Ron Turner is well, let's say not good.

I am just disgusted that this conversation even exists. I think Zorn has some faults but has shown signs of improvement given some of the garbage he was given by the front office. I still don't know what coach in their right mind would think the Redskins and the current front office structure is a great opportunity. Schottenheimer made some pretty good comments yesterday about Cerrato and it probably isn't a stretch to say more NFL people respect Marty than Cerrato but at least Snyder likes Cerrato. Right? Because that relationship has worked out so well for us. Right? Ha.[/quote]

Yeah I remember Zygmunt and Martz had some major issues. I think Zygmunt may have been just as hated in St. Louis as VC here.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=pdr76;637986]My very first post so I will try and not embarrass myself. In patrolling several boards and the topic of the next coach, there appears to be one name that continues to be missing.

While I think we can all agree that the front office is a complete farce and the general feeling is that Snyder wants a "name" coach, there seems to be a feeling that the name coaches are kind of saying "no thanks".....Cowher this week, Holmgren and the Hawks/Browns, Gruden and ESPN, etc, etc. The one successful coach that continues to be missing is Mike Martz. I lived in St. Louis when he was the OC and the head coach and the guy was crazy but an excellent coach that produced some very good teams. He turned in fairly successful stints as the OC in Detroit and San Francisco until Mike Singeltary decided on a different offense.

Martz clashed with the front office in STL because of the incompetence of some of the people there. Wilbon has stated several times that he believes Snyder will do one more hire before finally getting things right and getting the right front office structure in place. I personally would take the flier on Martz for his outstanding record as a head coach. Plus, I think he would put the screws to the front office and then finally, maybe, Snyder will realize his errors. Schottenheimer did it and he is the only coach, albeit for 1 season, that Snyder hired that had a .500 or better record with the Skins.[/quote]

Nice initial post, keep it up!! I thought Martz would have been perfect in '08 when we were searching but purely from a football standpoint. He would be calling virtually the same offense we'd been running under Saunders, had success with undersized WR in the past, could have made Portis into more of a threat in the screen/passing game and could have developed Campbell to his strengths. Also, he had a strong relationship with Fletcher on the defensive side so he'd have credibility with the defensive players. I'd wonder how his ego would work with Snyder and Cerrato but on the field it would have been a great fit.

At this point however, I don't think that's a good move. We'd be changing offenses AGAIN, our personnel isn't suited to his style and the front office structure is still broken.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;638009]Well, I think Dick Jauron also struggled in Chicago. He's another guy who probably isn't seen at this moment as head coach material. Especially not in a major market like DC.[/quote]

Talk about bad body language from a coach, he always looks like he just buried his best friend. I don't know if I've seen a smile ever cross his face or him get animated at anything.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=pdr76;637994]The front office in STL worked completely against each other (major infighting) during Martz's time. His head coaching record is outstanding and I was not his biggest fan but it is hard to argue with the results he produced. In each stop in Detroit and SF, his offense improved dramatically from the year prior to him.

If Lovie Smith stays in Chicago, I could see him helping his old friend out there as OC since Ron Turner is well, let's say not good.

I am just disgusted that this conversation even exists. I think Zorn has some faults but has shown signs of improvement given some of the garbage he was given by the front office. I still don't know what coach in their right mind would think the Redskins and the current front office structure is a great opportunity. Schottenheimer made some pretty good comments yesterday about Cerrato and it probably isn't a stretch to say more NFL people respect Marty than Cerrato but at least Snyder likes Cerrato. Right? Because that relationship has worked out so well for us. Right? Ha.[/quote]

There is no doubt Zorn got rooked. No doubt Zorn was not able to bring in everyone he wanted to help coach. However he was able to bring in a few coach's who could help him with the task. Not that that solves everything. Now having said that keep in mind that whatever he has tried to occomplish has failed here. You simply can't at the end of the season say as an owner "Oh I made a mistake so I'm going to allow Zorn to fire anyone he wants and bring in whoever he needs as coach's and try to get this thing right." That doesn't happen. No matter how much DS knows he did Zorn wrong, Zorn will be the scape goat in order to handle it right this time around or so DS can try to get one of the big names.

Plus I don't feel too sorry for Zorn. His play calling has sucked. His plays were bland. All that has been taken away from him and we look better. Our only problem right now is our 2 min. drill for which Zorn still has control. If he showed marked improvement in the 2 min. drill and Red Zone I would be more inclined to say maybe he should stay as a figure head and keep Sherm Lewis as OC and next year maybe with "consistancy" this team will progress, but I don't see it. Zorn has been a failed science project. It's time to move on.

Re: Our next coach??
 

I have a feeling that no matter who the coach is, we will be watching another new offense. In the 10 years, oh how I love the continuity we see from this junk:

Norv's sort of running/downfield attack (which is what I prefer)
Marty's smashmouth
Spurriers whatever he ran
Gibbs outdated running/downfield attack (including the Saunders time)
Zorn's west coast.

One would think a smart front office would try to maintain some semblance of rationality. I am not the first to say it but square pegs, round holes.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Paintrain;638018]Nice initial post, keep it up!! I thought Martz would have been perfect in '08 when we were searching but purely from a football standpoint. He would be calling virtually the same offense we'd been running under Saunders, had success with undersized WR in the past, could have made Portis into more of a threat in the screen/passing game and could have developed Campbell to his strengths. Also, he had a strong relationship with Fletcher on the defensive side so he'd have credibility with the defensive players. I'd wonder how his ego would work with Snyder and Cerrato but on the field it would have been a great fit.

At this point however, [B]I don't think that's a good move. We'd be changing offenses AGAIN, our personnel isn't suited to his style and the front office structure is still broken.[/quote][/B]

To tell you the truth I think you have it backwards. I don't think the players have bought into this whole WCO scheme and are having trouble with the terminology. I think most are used to the Gibbs/Saunders terminology issue better and to be honest our whole OL is set up for that style of offense. For the WCO to work we need smaller faster more agile OL which we don't have. If we blow this thing up I can only hope that if the next HC comes in and is utilizing the WCO he realizes he needs to drastically pick up OL for this scheme to work. Shanahan will have his work cut out for him.

Re: Our next coach??
 

I don't think it is hard to argue that no matter what offense will be run next year, the entire offensive line needs to be addressed. Fear not though, Cerrato and Dan are working on our next QB but since this isn't a thread on a QB (and I think we have obvious more pressing needs) I will not add to that. My biggest fear is that Cerrato and Dan see some offensive improvement and feel just another guy away from winning. I laugh.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SBXVII;638029][/B]

To tell you the truth I think you have it backwards. I don't think the players have bought into this whole WCO scheme and are having trouble with the terminology. I think most are used to the Gibbs/Saunders terminology issue better and to be honest our whole OL is set up for that style of offense. For the WCO to work we need smaller faster more agile OL which we don't have. [B]If we blow this thing up I can only hope that if the next HC comes in and is utilizing the WCO he realizes he needs to drastically pick up OL for this scheme to work. Shanahan will have his work cut out for him.[/B][/quote]

See if it's Shanahan I think the transition will be minimal. The offense he runs is also an offshoot of the Walsh WCO that Zorn & Lewis run via Holmgren. The players I'm concerned with are the WR group (Thomas, Kelly, Mitchell) and Davis because they've learned one offense and would have to reset after just starting to show they're getting comfortable. We're probably looking at a new QB, new RB and a new RT after this season so there will be some learning curve.

On our '10 projected (as I see it) OL there will only be two Gibbs/Saunders holdovers in Rabach and Dockery. Levi Jones came from Cincy and Mike Williams came from Buffalo. Unless we completely reset by letting them all go, there's not going to be a true WCO line for a couple of years.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Paintrain;638034]See if it's Shanahan I think the transition will be minimal. The offense he runs is also an offshoot of the Walsh WCO that Zorn & Lewis run via Holmgren. The players I'm concerned with are the WR group (Thomas, Kelly, Mitchell) and Davis because they've learned one offense and would have to reset after just starting to show they're getting comfortable. We're probably looking at a new QB, new RB and a new RT after this season so there will be some learning curve.

On our '10 projected (as I see it) OL there will only be two Gibbs/Saunders holdovers in Rabach and Dockery. Levi Jones came from Cincy and Mike Williams came from Buffalo. Unless we completely reset by letting them all go, there's not going to be a true WCO line for a couple of years.[/quote]

Pain, i agree with everything you say there. Shanahan is not my first (or second, third, or forth) choice to be our next HC, but that is the main positive I see with him taking over. If we go with anything other than a WCO style offense, then all the progress we've seen our receivers (and even Campbell) have made over the past two years will be for nothing. With Shanahan, we have a high probabilty of being competetive sooner - although i think there's a "lower ceiling" with Shanahan than there would be if we just blew the whole thing up and started building from scratch.

And while the offense could greatly benefit from Shanahan, our defense would no doubt suffer. If we went with a smaller name HC, he would be more inclined to to keep our defense in tact. Shanahan's likely going to bring in entirely new coaching staffs on BOTH sides of the ball. Given the relative success of our defense, perhaps Shanahan could be convinced to just promote Jerry Gray to DC, but I wouldnt count on it.

Re: Our next coach??
 

Pain, I understand what your saying. I agree with you. At this point the best we could do is keep a WCO because of terminology and consistancy. I was just pointing out that if we are going to "blow" this thing all up then changing won't matter. Especially if our OL is going to consist of mostly new players.

Shanahan is not my first choice. but what does intrege me is what he had in Denver with the OL. I always thought they had the best blocking scheme. If Shanahan can bring that with him then I'm somewhat ok with the decision. It always seemed like they could run on anyone. Plus I think his WCO style is more of a down field scheme (passing) vs some of the others we have seen.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SBXVII;638076]Pain, I understand what your saying. I agree with you. At this point the best we could do is keep a WCO because of terminology and consistancy. I was just pointing out that if we are going to "blow" this thing all up then changing won't matter. Especially if our OL is going to consist of mostly new players.

Shanahan is not my first choice. but what does intrege me is what he had in Denver with the OL. I always thought they had the best blocking scheme. If Shanahan can bring that with him then I'm somewhat ok with the decision. It always seemed like they could run on anyone. Plus I think his WCO style is more of a down field scheme (passing) vs some of the others we have seen.[/quote]

That was because of the O-line coach Alex Gibbs. I think he now coaches in Atlanta.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=Mattyk72;638008]I've gone back and forth on Zorn all year, but I'm starting to firm up my view. I think he needs to go.

Going back to the 2nd half of last year is record right now is 5-15. Chew on that for a minute.

The offense only showed improvement when Sherm Lewis was brought in and his playcalling duties were stripped. The guy has no real power or clout in the locker room, it's been pretty clear through his tenure here that Vinny is calling most of the shots and the players know that. Zorn wasn't even able to assemble his own staff.

I love that the team has played their hearts out these last few weeks, but I'm not so sure how much of that credit can really go to Zorn. The players know Zorn is on his way out. Guys are playing hard because they know it's evaluation time for the next staff that comes in, or they are trying to spice up the resume for another team.[/quote]

I agree with this and have argued for it on the same points. However I did read that after meeting the staff Zorn wanted to keep them and not bring in his own guys, well other than stump and smith of course

No need to have a HC that can't be a HC

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=skins89moss;638296]That was because of the O-line coach Alex Gibbs. I think he now coaches in Atlanta.[/quote]

Oh my god you scared the hell out of me. No he's not with Atlanta. He's actually with Houston who is looking to possibly blow their team up at the end of the season. I guess it would be a plus if we get Shanahan here he could bring his son in from Houston and possibly Alex Gibbs.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SBXVII;638331]Oh my god you scared the hell out of me. No he's not with Atlanta. He's actually with Houston who is looking to possibly blow their team up at the end of the season. I guess it would be a plus if we get Shanahan here he could bring his son in from Houston and possibly Alex Gibbs.[/quote]

Ok Alex Gibbs is with the Texans now. Im sure he spent a few years with the Falcons maybe when Vick was still there. I also believe the Texans will fire their coach this season, due to the teams failure to make the playoffs. High expectations this season for the Texans but again they have struggled. Sounds like our team.

Re: Our next coach??
 

if that is the case , maybe Kubiak ends up here as offensive coordinator?

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=dmek25;638442]if that is the case , maybe Kubiak ends up here as offensive coordinator?[/quote]

I would suspect if Shanahan is named HC he will bring in his son from the Texans who is the OC there now. I almost hope not since the Texans don't look good and it essentally would be just bringing in that teams problems here but I'm still betting he tries to set up his son here.

Re: Our next coach??
 

Ok so I looked and Kubiak was Shanahan's OC in Denver. I could live with him being OC here. But if that happens what do we do with his son whome I would suppose would be brought in? I still would like to get Alex Gibbs for the OL in order to give them new life and a new blocking scheme.

I find it also funny that we picked up Alridge again and put him on the practice squad. I think Shanahan loves this kid. I would love to see us with the great running system that Shanahan had in Denver with Alridge running. So long as the fumbles can be cured.

Re: Our next coach??
 

The case for Jerry Gray:
With the offense waking up these past few week because of the playcalling of Shermin Lewis, I can see the skins promoting Jerry Grey to HC. Let go of Jim Zorn, and Sherman Smith, then retain the rest of the staff. If they let go off Vinny and hire a new guy this would give that person a season to see what he has on this washington team.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=diehardskin2982;639623]The case for Jerry Gray:
With the offense waking up these past few week because of the playcalling of Shermin Lewis, I can see the skins promoting Jerry Grey to HC. Let go of Jim Zorn, and Sherman Smith, then retain the rest of the staff. If they let go off Vinny and hire a new guy this would give that person a season to see what he has on this washington team.[/quote]

That would definitely be a PLAN C for Snyder, but one I would be "satisfied" with.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SBXVII;638479]Ok so I looked and Kubiak was Shanahan's OC in Denver. I could live with him being OC here. But if that happens what do we do with his son whome I would suppose would be brought in? I still would like to get Alex Gibbs for the OL in order to give them new life and a new blocking scheme.

I find it also funny that we picked up Alridge again and put him on the practice squad. I think Shanahan loves this kid. I would love to see us with the great running system that Shanahan had in Denver with Alridge running. So long as the fumbles can be cured.[/quote]

Why replace Bugel with Alex Gibbs? I wouldn't do it

Re: Our next coach??
 

I also saw someone throw out Dennis Green, who has worked with Lewis before

Re: Our next coach??
 

Honestly I'm so sick of all the damn change around here. I bought this up in another thread but how in the hell are we ever going to compete against the teams in the division when we're always changing coaches?

Re: Our next coach??
 

except for at the top we haven't had overall coaching changes in 5 years

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=diehardskin2982;639667]I also saw someone throw out Dennis Green, who has worked with Lewis before[/quote]

I'd rather have Denny Crane (Shatner's character from Boston Legal).

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=skinsfan69;639669]Honestly I'm so sick of all the damn change around here. I bought this up in another thread but how in the hell are we ever going to compete against the teams in the division when we're always changing coaches?[/quote]

Agreed, but we made a bad hire w/ Zorn in part b/c our organization is too screwed up and the fact that many don't want to work w/ VC.

I'm warming up to the current coaching staff, including Zorn. I'm not warming up to VC though and he's gotta go. He's gotta go no matter what the implications are for Zorn and Co. New GM means new coaching and i'm ok w/ that.

If VC is kept in his current role, i'm for Zorn staying.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=redsk1;639680]Agreed, but we made a bad hire w/ Zorn in part b/c our organization is too screwed up and the fact that many don't want to work w/ VC.

I'm warming up to the current coaching staff, including Zorn. I'm not warming up to VC though and he's gotta go. He's gotta go no matter what the implications are for Zorn and Co. New GM means new coaching and i'm ok w/ that.

If VC is kept in his current role, i'm for Zorn staying.[/quote]

Did two people write this post? You seemed to conflict yourself a couple of times there

Re: Our next coach??
 

I just can't live with status quo unless we were an above 500 team.

If there is no CBA/CAP does that mean this year is the year when teams will not have to worry about a draft? Basically teams could talk to all the college kids and the kid gets to decide who he would want to play for vs. getting picked like a draft?

I ask cause I remember someone saying if there is no CBA then there would be no draft and essentially teams can talk to all players. Would this be the year or would it be the 2011 year?

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;639681]Did two people write this post? You seemed to conflict yourself a couple of times there[/quote]

No see you misunderstood him.....he's saying that we made a bad hire cause Zorn is not a good HC but he's willing to live with it if Cerrato has to stay.

Ya know what...it still sounds conflicted. :)

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SBXVII;639683]I just can't live with status quo unless we were an above 500 team.

If there is no CBA/CAP does that mean this year is the year when teams will not have to worry about a draft? [B]Basically teams could talk to all the college kids and the kid gets to decide who he would want to play for vs. getting picked like a draft? [/B]

I ask cause I remember someone saying if there is no CBA then there would be no draft and essentially teams can talk to all players. Would this be the year or would it be the 2011 year?[/quote]

That would be for the 2012 draft

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;639688]That would be for the 2012 draft[/quote]

Ok thank you.

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;639681]Did two people write this post? You seemed to conflict yourself a couple of times there[/quote]


No, the Zorn hire was not a great hire IMO. However, we've got him, he seems to have gelled a little w/ S. Lewis lately. If VC, is still our "gm" or whatever he is, I'm ok w/ keeping Zorn on vs VC hiring someone else. We've already established that alot of highly qualified coaches wouldn't work under VC, so that would leave us w/ a coach who might be a little desperate to get back in the NFL (like a Fassel, Billick, Mariucci). I'd rather keep Zorn, that's what i'm saying. Hope that makes sense.

Maybe i should just say, i don't trust VC in making a competent hire.

Re: Our next coach??
 

I'd keep the Coaching staff as it is other than maybe replace Blache with Gray. We're playing well now for whatever reason. Why break it up, it's working. Maybe the players are getting the offense now.

Re: Our next coach??
 

here ya go man ;)[url=http://chriscooley47.blogspot.com/]The Official Blog of Chris Cooley[/url]

Re: Our next coach??
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;639856]here ya go man ;)[url=http://chriscooley47.blogspot.com/]The Official Blog of Chris Cooley[/url][/quote]

Thanks C! Cooley makes how he feels about the staff, JC, and some others known on his blog, including playing with FD.