Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;564210]First off, the question is do I think that universal healthcare is vitally important. The answer is yes. That being the case, am I willing to pay an increase in taxes for that benefit? Yes again. I am already paying a significant sum of money for things I would rather not, whether it's ridiculous research into [URL="http://www.ajc.com/health/content/health/stories/2009/03/23/alternative_medicine_federal_funds.html"]quack science[/URL] or funding poor lending practices, this is something that I feel is actually a basic, human rights/quality of life issue. You cannot be an advanced society when ANY percentage of your population are denied healthcare. Take a look at defense spending in the same period. I'd be interested to see how much of a difference there is in one as opposed to the other. Too many people get wrapped up in these emotional issues with ideas being labelled "democratic, republican or, oh my heavens, socialist." Sit back, take off your partisan hat and think about the most basic question: [B]Should everyone, let alone every US Citizen, have access to quality healthcare?[/B][/quote]

Depends on what you mean by "quality." Every citizen should have access to Emergency care. But is it everyone's right to access elective-preventative care? I say no, you pay as you go.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;564213]What did I tell ya? These fools think health insurance is a human right. :bs:[/quote]

It's not "health insurance" that is the basic human right, it's the health care. Pay the **** attention and stop distorting the issues. You're so wrapped up in rhetoric that you can't see the forest for the trees. Judging by your previous posts, you feel that spending untold sums haphazardly bombing this country and that is good foreign and fiscal policy. Still worse, you advocate denying citizens of what is supposed to be the preeminent nation in the world basic health care over a worst-case single digit percentage increase in federal taxes. Your logic is flawed at best and can thus be summed up: "Allocating federal funds towards preserving american lives through healthcare is waste. Conversely, spending federal funds on ending the lives of others based purely on philosophical differences is money well spent." That's the kind of logic that I, and most other rational humans, can't seem to understand. Perhaps it requires a form of moral flexibility I don't possess, like the kind necessary to fit my head up my own ass.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Schneed10;564218]Depends on what you mean by "quality." Every citizen should have access to Emergency care. But is it everyone's right to access elective-preventative care? I say no, you pay as you go.[/quote]

You're the healthcare expert, and I'll defer to that knowledge. That said, isn't prevention generally cheaper than emergency care? Example: Isn't catching a potential cardio vascular problem in the early stages and correcting for it through a diet and exercise regimen is most likely more cost effective than waiting until open heart surgery is required?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Schneed10;564218]Depends on what you mean by "quality." Every citizen should have access to Emergency care. But is it everyone's right to access [B]elective-preventative care[/B]? I say no, you pay as you go.[/quote]

That's a new phrase I haven't heard before. And from the cost perspective? You're in the business of cost analysis...which would you prefer to pay for? Elective-preventative care or emergency care?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564216]First off this coverage will go to anyone who is living in the US legal or not. Second there is not that many people denied health coverage or cannot afford health care to tear apart our health care system. Does it need some work. Yes but goverment is one of the biggest problems with health care coverage today. [B]Goverment F*&$ up everything it touches[/B], SS, Medicad, Medicare, heck even the post office is loosing money. I don't care who comes up with this bad plan I'm not for the goverments power grab of about 10% of the US economy.[/quote]

Have you been paying attention the last year or so? You want an example of how well the private sector governs itself, look no further than the housing bubble and associated ridiculous lending practices. The ones who trot out the whole "government screws up everything" routine need to keep that in mind for the future.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;564220]It's not "health insurance" that is the basic human right, it's the health care. Pay the **** attention and stop distorting the issues. You're so wrapped up in rhetoric that you can't see the forest for the trees. Judging by your previous posts, you feel that spending untold sums haphazardly bombing this country and that is good foreign and fiscal policy. Still worse, you advocate denying citizens of what is supposed to be the preeminent nation in the world basic health care over a worst-case single digit percentage increase in federal taxes. Your logic is flawed at best and can thus be summed up: "Allocating federal funds towards preserving american lives through healthcare is waste. Conversely, spending federal funds on ending the lives of others based purely on philosophical differences is money well spent." That's the kind of logic that I, and most other rational humans, can't seem to understand. Perhaps it requires a form of moral flexibility I don't possess, like the kind necessary to fit my head up my own ass.[/quote]

He he he. It only took a few sentences to get you all worked up. So you think I'm for bombing everything and everyone huh? How about this? How about you pay for your own health care, insurance, clitorectamy, whatever!

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;564228]He he he. It only took a few sentences to get you all worked up. So you think I'm for bombing everything and everyone huh? How about this? How about you pay for your own health care, insurance, clitorectamy, whatever![/quote]

That's just it, it's not about "me paying for my clitorectamy" dipshit. Abject stupidity is always good for getting a rise out of me. It's about realizing that there are those that for a multitude of socio-economic reasons do not have access to healthcare. That's a problem, period. With the GDP we have, there is no excuse for that. And as far as your foreign policy ideas, look over your own post history. The attitude of "me first" is at the root of most of what's wrong with this country.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;564230]That's just it, it's not about "me paying for my clitorectamy" dipshit. Abject stupidity is always good for getting a rise out of me. It's about realizing that there are those that for a multitude of socio-economic reasons do not have access to healthcare. That's a problem, period. With the GDP we have, there is no excuse for that. And as far as your foreign policy ideas, look over your own post history. The attitude of "me first" is at the root of most of what's wrong with this country.[/quote]

There's the disagreement. Many don't want to pay for health care for others. Your side sees health care as a right. The other side says "get a job" and pay for it yourself. Sounds harsh to me but the philosophy that everyone needs to be responsible for themselves and their family first sounds about right to me. Then we can worry about helping others. It seems to me we are slowly changing from that philosophy to one where it is far too easy for everyone to rely on the gov't and everyone else rather than themselves. There has to be a balance.

And please don't throw out "a single digit tax increase" like it is a few pennies. 9% is still single digits and would cripple the finances of a lot of people in this country. Not mention businesses that would then pass it on to customers.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;564225]Have you been paying attention the last year or so? You want an example of how well the private sector governs itself, look no further than the housing bubble and associated ridiculous lending practices. The ones who trot out the whole "government screws up everything" routine need to keep that in mind for the future.[/quote]
Oh you mean those loans the goverment forced the banks to make. Do I need to serch out those YouTube clips of Barrney Frank and others lecturing the banks about how they have to make these loans to people who cannot afford them.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;564230]That's just it, it's not about "me paying for my clitorectamy" dipshit. Abject stupidity is always good for getting a rise out of me. It's about realizing that there are those that for a multitude of socio-economic reasons do not have access to healthcare. That's a problem, period. With the GDP we have, there is no excuse for that. And as far as your foreign policy ideas, look over your own post history. The attitude of "me first" is at the root of most of what's wrong with this country.[/quote]
So what is the number of people that cannot afford health care?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=FRPLG;564236]There's the disagreement. Many don't want to pay for health care for others. Your side sees health care as a right. The other side says "get a job" and pay for it yourself. Sounds harsh to me but the philosophy that everyone needs to be responsible for themselves and their family first sounds about right to me. Then we can worry about helping others. It seems to me we are slowly changing from that philosophy to one where it is far too easy for everyone to rely on the gov't and everyone else rather than themselves. There has to be a balance.

And please don't throw out "a single digit tax increase" like it is a few pennies. 9% is still single digits and would cripple the finances of a lot of people in this country. Not mention businesses that would then pass it on to customers.[/quote]

Show me a credible source that says 9%. But i do get your point, it's a difference in philosophy. But say healtcare was fully govt. provided. Using these [URL="http://www.thehealthcareblog.com/the_health_care_blog/2008/03/a-detailed-anal.html"]figures[/URL], there is an annual cost of $65 billion to the 138 million U.S. taxpayers. That's a per payer cost (not "per citizen") of $471 per year. I don't know too many people that are going to go bankrupt over that figure. I know it's a simplistic approach, but you see my point.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564241]Oh you mean those loans the goverment forced the banks to make. Do I need to serch out those YouTube clips of Barrney Frank and others lecturing the banks about how they have to make these loans to people who cannot afford them.[/quote]

Forced, as in, "here's a giant ****ing loophole, please take advantage of it."

Inmates running the asylum is never a good idea.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564243]So what is the number of people that cannot afford health care?[/quote]

[URL="http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/80897.php"]47 million[/URL], but then you have to believe those bastards at the Census Bureau.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;564246]Forced, as in, "here's a giant ****ing loophole, please take advantage of it."

Inmates running the asylum is never a good idea.[/quote]

You mean like goverment talking about free health coverage?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564248]You mean like goverment talking about free health coverage?[/quote]

Who said free? I know I'm not on crystal meth, so i'm pretty sure I didn't hallucinate and say anything of the sort.