Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]I couldn't care less about the fine, the fine means nothing to me. $17,000 to Sean Taylor is nothing, and if the NFL really thought the act was so heinous, they would have fined Taylor more, not less, than they fined Clinton Portis for wearing the wrong socks, for crying out loud.

And I realize that the NFL is a different world, a world where hitting is part of the game. The thing we really should be asking ourselves is why don't the refs throw a flag everytime someone throws a punch? A lot of the time, the refs just break up the action and don't throw flags. Why? Because they don't want to tip the competitive balance of a game. So why should spitting be treated any different? Why would you eject a player for spitting, thus influencing one team's ability to compete? What is the basis for this judgment? It's an emotional reaction, specifically the emotion of disgust. If you're letting emotions rule your judgments, you are by definition not being fair.[/QUOTE]

Fines aren't levied for punches because they are a more understandable element of the game than spitting. It's understood that players may lose their cool and throw a punch, but it's not acceptable to spit. It's a social norm in the NFL I guess.

Just curious, if the roles were reversed, if Pittman spit at Taylor, would you have the same exact opinion of the incident?? I'm sure you'll say yes for the sake of supporting your "unemotional views", but I'm inclined to think you wouldn't have the same view.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

Schneed, I think you're right. In a playoff game, did a spitting incident actually merit the ejection even if there was retaliation? It was an emotional based judgement call. I mean they got the first on fourth and long... and they picked up 15 yards which is huge in a tight playoff game. Taylor also got jacked in the mouth. Then to eject him with nothing happening to pittman is not an objective and reasonable assessment of the situation no matter how you look at it.

If the situation was reversed I'd say, "hell spit on us all of the time if we can get away with murder after a guy spits, and get a hell of an advantage on the drive and throughout the game!:

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]Unbelievable. Guess what Matty, your personal beliefs regarding spitting vs punching are very inconsistent with UNITED STATES LAW. You punch someone, that's Assault & Battery. You spit on someone, that's Assault.[/QUOTE]

OK, actually, that's wrong. Spitting on someone is battery. Creating the reasonable apprehension in someone that you are going to spit on them is assault.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=onlydarksets]OK, actually, that's wrong. Spitting on someone is battery. Creating the reasonable apprehension in someone that you are going to spit on them is assault.[/QUOTE]

And here come the lefties :spank: LOL

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

I can't believe people are still talking about this. I'm focused on one thing at this point, and that is the Seahawks. HTTR

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=onlydarksets]OK, actually, that's wrong. Spitting on someone is battery. Creating the reasonable apprehension in someone that you are going to spit on them is assault.[/QUOTE]

You are correct sir, nice call!

[quote]
A battery is the willful or intentional touching of a person against that person’s will by another person, or by an object or substance put in motion by that other person. Please note that an offensive touching can constitute a battery even if it does not cause injury, and could not reasonably be expected to cause injury. A defendant who emphatically pokes the plaintiff in the chest with his index finger to emphasize a point may be culpable for battery (although the damages award that results may well be nominal). [b]A defendant who spits on a plaintiff, even though there is little chance that the spitting will cause any injury other than to the plaintiff's dignity, has committed a battery.[/b] [/quote]

[url="http://www.expertlaw.com/library/personal_injury/assault_battery.html"]http://www.expertlaw.com/library/personal_injury/assault_battery.html[/url]

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=canthetuna]And here come the lefties :spank: LOL[/QUOTE]

huh?

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=onlydarksets]huh?[/QUOTE]


Sorry, I've just been on a big Bill O'Riley bashing kick lately, and everytime someone makes a valid point about anything different from his opinoins he calls them far lefties, and radicals and goes into a culture war tantrum. I guess the post was just for my benefit... I'll keep those type things to myself in the future.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

The ref made the correct call and got it right when he said to the skins player. What would have you done if someone spit in your face? I do not remember who he said that to but they just turned away as if to say to the ref your right.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=canthetuna]Sorry, I've just been on a big Bill O'Riley bashing kick lately, and everytime someone makes a valid point about anything different from his opinoins he calls them far lefties, and radicals and goes into a culture war tantrum. I guess the post was just for my benefit... I'll keep those type things to myself in the future.[/QUOTE]

ah - [b]now[/b] it's funny!

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Fines aren't levied for punches because they are a more understandable element of the game than spitting. It's understood that players may lose their cool and throw a punch, but it's not acceptable to spit. It's a social norm in the NFL I guess.

Just curious, if the roles were reversed, if Pittman spit at Taylor, would you have the same exact opinion of the incident?? I'm sure you'll say yes for the sake of supporting your "unemotional views", but I'm inclined to think you wouldn't have the same view.[/QUOTE]

Then you're inclined to be wrong, and from what I've seen you're inclined to be a judgmental person. You obviously are letting your disgust and respect dictate how you feel about punishments regarding spitting, and you are jumping to conclusions in assuming that my opinions would change were a different player involved. It's very judgmental of you, and to be honest I'm slightly annoyed that you would jump to that conclusion about me.

As long as I've been here I feel like I have been a very fair member of the Warpath. No matter the issue, I feel like I state my opinions (albeit strongly) in a very fair and consistent manner. I don't feel like I've given you any reason to believe that I am such a "homer", and it's a bit annoying to be classified that way.

I'm a big boy and it won't be an issue going forward, I just wish you'd cool it with this passing judgment trend you're on right now.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]I'm sure you're well aware that what happens on a football field is FAR different from what happens on the street.

Sorry if I'm on a high horse to you, I simply think spitting is a more heinous act than throwing a punch, and alot of people in the NFL seem to agree.

You don't hear about guys getting fined $17,500 for throwing a punch, do you?? I wonder why.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to stray a little bit, but I think a large part of the stigma associated with spitting is first cultural and then personal. Football is seen as an old school game played by men with honor, and as long as men act like men (hit, punch, kick), our conditioned minds are trained to think nothing of it.

Spitting is interesting because it isn't seen as a very "manly" thing to do around these parts, and because the "disgust factor" against bodily secretions is ingrained in most of our minds. Hence the description of the act as vile, disgusting, heinous, etc.

Take for e.g., the Arab world. Many of the Iraqi prisoners that were subject to the atrocities in Abu Ghraib prison have come out saying that they'd rather have been shot than sexually humiliated in the way they were. Me, on the other hand, I'd whack off in front of a woman in uniform than take a bullet to the head anyday (but that's just me). Its both cultural and personal.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

Can we just drop this already?? What Sean Taylor did was wrong, the punishment fit the crime. Should Pittman have been flagged??? Who cares! We won anyways. As soon as Taylor takes one to the house again, everyones gonna forget about it, just move on.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=hurrykaine] I'd whack off in front of a woman in uniform than take a bullet to the head anyday (but that's just me). Its both cultural and personal.[/QUOTE]


Where is this prison again??? do they let you in for free?

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]Can we just drop this already?? What Sean Taylor did was wrong, the punishment fit the crime. Should Pittman have been flagged??? Who cares! We won anyways. As soon as Taylor takes one to the house again, everyones gonna forget about it, just move on.[/QUOTE]

You know that just wouldn't be us though.

Last week it was Arrington, now it's the spitting incident.

We can't be content just talking about our first playoff appearance since '99, we need drama!! ;)

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=hurrykaine]Sorry to stray a little bit, but I think a large part of the stigma associated with spitting is first cultural and then personal. Football is seen as an old school game played by men with honor, and as long as men act like men (hit, punch, kick), our conditioned minds are trained to think nothing of it.

Spitting is interesting because it isn't seen as a very "manly" thing to do around these parts, and because the "disgust factor" against bodily secretions is ingrained in most of our minds. Hence the description of the act as vile, disgusting, heinous, etc.

Take for e.g., the Arab world. Many of the Iraqi prisoners that were subject to the atrocities in Abu Ghraib prison have come out saying that they'd rather have been shot than sexually humiliated in the way they were. Me, on the other hand, I'd whack off in front of a woman in uniform than take a bullet to the head anyday (but that's just me). Its both cultural and personal.[/QUOTE]

nice take

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

This is getting a bit heated, and, although I didn't want to reveal my information, I think maybe I can help resolve this issue for everyone:
[SIZE=4]Sean Taylor did NOT spit on Pittman.[/SIZE]

Anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows that there was obviously a second spitter on the grassy knoll, and that the spitter was none other than Keith Hernandez. If you believe otherwise, then you are simply a lemming, blindly following the pack as the "government" leads. It's all a conspiracy, man.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]Then you're inclined to be wrong, and from what I've seen you're inclined to be a judgmental person. You obviously are letting your disgust and respect dictate how you feel about punishments regarding spitting, and you are jumping to conclusions in assuming that my opinions would change were a different player involved. It's very judgmental of you, and to be honest I'm slightly annoyed that you would jump to that conclusion about me.

As long as I've been here I feel like I have been a very fair member of the Warpath. No matter the issue, I feel like I state my opinions (albeit strongly) in a very fair and consistent manner. I don't feel like I've given you any reason to believe that I am such a "homer", and it's a bit annoying to be classified that way.

I'm a big boy and it won't be an issue going forward, I just wish you'd cool it with this passing judgment trend you're on right now.[/QUOTE]

Kinda funny how someone was just telling me to get off my high horse and saying how my opinion was based on emotion and was ridiculous.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]You are correct sir, nice call!



[url="http://www.expertlaw.com/library/personal_injury/assault_battery.html"]http://www.expertlaw.com/library/personal_injury/assault_battery.html[/url][/QUOTE]

I stand corrected on the spitting being battery. So then by US Law, hitting someone and spitting on someone is considered equal. That still doesn't explain why officials levy a harsher punishment for spitting than they do for punching. They should be the same. If I had it my way, Taylor and Pittman would have been flagged for offsetting penalties. One for spitting, the other for losing his cool and retaliating with a punch.

And there would have been no ejections if I were reffing. People may get grossed out, but I'd rather let the players play through fights and spitting. I don't like the concept of tipping the competitive balance of a game just because someone spat.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]I stand corrected on the spitting being battery. So then by US Law, hitting someone and spitting on someone is considered equal. That still doesn't explain why officials levy a harsher punishment for spitting than they do for punching. They should be the same. If I had it my way, Taylor and Pittman would have been flagged for offsetting penalties. One for spitting, the other for losing his cool and retaliating with a punch.

And there would have been no ejections if I were reffing. People may get grossed out, but I'd rather let the players play through fights and spitting. I don't like the concept of tipping the competitive balance of a game just because someone spat.[/QUOTE]

Schneed, did you go to law go school?

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Kinda funny how someone was just telling me to get off my high horse and saying how my opinion was based on emotion and was ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

I didn't get my feelings hurt, if that's what you're implying. It's not an emotional issue for me, but because you have shown a tendency to be judgmental in this thread, I think it speaks to why you can't look at the spitting situation objectively, and I think it affects your credibility a bit.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Just for the record Romo was fined $7500 for spitting at JJ Stokes in '97.[/QUOTE]

Inflation is a bitch.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[color=black][font='Times New Roman']What an embarrassment! That is not Joe Gibbs football! That boy better eat some humble pie and grow up!
[/font][/color]

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]Schneed, did you go to law go school?[/QUOTE]

No I didn't. I just had a couple law classes through grad school, but they focused more on contract law. I always thought spitting did not classify as battery, so I was wrong on that one. But it doesn't really change my stance, since the definition Matty posted indicates that Spitting is seen as equivalent to Punching. They should be treated the same in football too.

I just mean to say, in this entire thread, that Taylor should not have been ejected. Spitting is wrong, but not more so than throwing a punch.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

Maybe the fine was only 17,000 because Taylor got jacked in the side of the head and there was no penalty for that and that off set some of the fine.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=firstdown]Maybe the fine was only 17,000 because Taylor got jacked in the side of the head and there was no penalty for that and that off set some of the fine.[/QUOTE]

I think there is some truth to this. Portis got fined $20K for wearing the wrong socks, I think that says everything.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]I didn't get my feelings hurt, if that's what you're implying. It's not an emotional issue for me, but because you have shown a tendency to be judgmental in this thread, I think it speaks to why you can't look at the spitting situation objectively, and I think it affects your credibility a bit.[/QUOTE]

My view that spitting is a more heinous act than throwing a punch is my objective opinion. I thought the same exact way when Romo did it, and I feel the same way now that one of our guys is guilty of the same thing. Despite what you may think my opinion is not based on emotion and I don't see how I'm passing judgement by holding this opinion. You're telling me my view is ridiculous and based on emotion, so who's the one passing judgement??

You feel that spitting and punching should be treated the same... despite the fact a few people have layed out a couple of good posts as to why they aren't treated the same way in our society. It's not the black and white issue that you want it to be and frankly I'm surprised you seem to have such a narrow view of things, considering how open minded you usually are.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]I think there is some truth to this. Portis got fined $20K for wearing the wrong socks, I think that says everything.[/QUOTE]
As I posted [url=http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?p=140400#post140400]elsewhere[/url], I don't think that it necessarily does say it all:
My understanding with CP is that it was an escalating fine - the first violation had a low fine, the second was $20k, and, if he had done it a third time, he was going to get suspended. I'm not saying that "ticky-tack" stuff should get the same merit as spitting but, rather, that, repeat violations will always get more attention than first time violations.

Somebody responded that Taylor spit on TJ Houshmanzadeh previously, so that could kill my theory, but I don't think the CP $20k fine can be looked at in a vacuum.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

When I was watching the game I didn't hear Mike Carey say all those things. I did not hear him say that Sean Taylor was ejected for spitting, I also didn't hear him say anything about pittman is not going to be penalized for retaliation. I have the game on dvd and there is no audio on the ref when he made those calls. The booth even kept saying over and over that the refs made a mistake for throwing Taylor out, meaning they didnt hear the call either. Its weird seeing this video with actual audio on it, because it was definitely not heard at all during the game. I also did not see Taylor fighting the penalty and Carey was right on the spot so I just assumed he saw something more than I could from home. Go skins....get ready to post those beer counts again....

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Personally I thought an ejection for spitting at another player was appropriate.[/QUOTE]

To be perfectly honest, if that was Roy Williams spitting on Clinton Portis I'd say he deserved to be suspended for 2 games so the same should go for Taylor. Absolutely disgusting. That is NOT a Gibbs-type player. I don't care how talented he is, that is just absolutely classless. To boot, he lied to Gibbs, Williams and his teammates about it.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]My view that spitting is a more heinous act than throwing a punch is my objective opinion. I thought the same exact way when Romo did it, and I feel the same way now that one of our guys is guilty of the same thing. Despite what you may think my opinion is not based on emotion and I don't see how I'm passing judgement by holding this opinion. You're telling me my view is ridiculous and based on emotion, so who's the one passing judgement??

You feel that spitting and punching should be treated the same... despite the fact a few people have layed out a couple of good posts as to why they aren't treated the same way in our society. It's not the black and white issue that you want it to be and frankly I'm surprised you seem to have such a narrow view of things, considering how open minded you usually are.[/QUOTE]

I guess you touched on the fundamental difference in our arguments, it's probably the difference that is at the heart of our disagreement.

I personally don't feel that society's unspoken rules should have any place on the football field, or in the courtroom. These unspoken rules are usually driven by the way people feel about things. If people could rationalize these feelings, these rules would not need to go unspoken, they could be written down as laws or as rules in the NFL rulebook. But people have a hard time rationalizing why these unspoken rules are in place, and thus, remain as unwritten social norms and mores.

You seem to feel like these rules are applicable. I personally can't understand how applying rules based on feelings is objective, but this is the kind of thing we're never going to agree on, so we might as well agree to disagree. We'll never get anywhere with a fundamental disagreement like this one. It may have gotten animated, but you should know that I enjoyed the discussion because I found it stimulating.

Luckily, Taylor's ejection did not hurt the Redskins since they still won, and ultimately the team is what I care about most, and I think you will agree with me on that one. No matter how gross that loogie was, we've both said we still want him on the Skins, despite that act. And I guess that's the only common ground we can come to on a dispute like this. But luckily, it's the common ground that really matters.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

Now that we are actually citing US law I think we can officially call this the biggest "I have nothing better to do" thread ever. That's not a jab at anyone in particular but everyone who has participated so stridently (very much including me) and more a reflection of that whole discussion in general. I am officially done with this one. I think we have WAY over-reacted.

Lets agree to drop it and move on to worrying about the Seahags. Go Skins!

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

Lying to Coach Williams is more a aggregious penalty than spitting on Pittman IMO. Good thing Sean Taylor is the best football player in the NFL. If OJ can get away with murder, ST can get away with spitting on a wife beater.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

Schneed,

It would be fine to argue that the league should not have "unsportsmanlike conduct" penalties and therefore the spitting incident should not have been punished. That would be fine, although I would disagree with it. But, you cannot honestly be saying that spitting on another player doesn't constitute "unsportsmanlike conduct." It's a rule that is in the NFL rulebook and I think for good reason. I don't want to see the NFL turn into another classless sport.

BTW-I also agree with the uniform fines as I think teams should be UNIFORM, not a bunch of idiots wearing similar color schemes but dressed in their own clothes.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

I don't know why people are blowing this so out of proportion. Taylor is an Asshole. O well, he still a great player, and makes a huge difference for us. Sometimes you need a nasty asshole on your team to itimidate the other team

I'm still a Sean Taylor fan

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]I guess you touched on the fundamental difference in our arguments, it's probably the difference that is at the heart of our disagreement.

I personally don't feel that society's unspoken rules should have any place on the football field, or in the courtroom. These unspoken rules are usually driven by the way people feel about things. If people could rationalize these feelings, these rules would not need to go unspoken, they could be written down as laws or as rules in the NFL rulebook. But people have a hard time rationalizing why these unspoken rules are in place, and thus, remain as unwritten social norms and mores.

You seem to feel like these rules are applicable. I personally can't understand how applying rules based on feelings is objective, but this is the kind of thing we're never going to agree on, so we might as well agree to disagree. We'll never get anywhere with a fundamental disagreement like this one. It may have gotten animated, but you should know that I enjoyed the discussion because I found it stimulating.

Luckily, Taylor's ejection did not hurt the Redskins since they still won, and ultimately the team is what I care about most, and I think you will agree with me on that one. No matter how gross that loogie was, we've both said we still want him on the Skins, despite that act. And I guess that's the only common ground we can come to on a dispute like this. But luckily, it's the common ground that really matters.[/QUOTE]

Let's save the discussion of the need and importance of social norms for another day. ;)

At least we got to the heart of the matter while staying relatively civil.

I still think you're a homer!

j/k

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Schneed,

It would be fine to argue that the league should not have "unsportsmanlike conduct" penalties and therefore the spitting incident should not have been punished. That would be fine, although I would disagree with it. But, you cannot honestly be saying that spitting on another player doesn't constitute "unsportsmanlike conduct." It's a rule that is in the NFL rulebook and I think for good reason. I don't want to see the NFL turn into another classless sport.

BTW-I also agree with the uniform fines as I think teams should be UNIFORM, not a bunch of idiots wearing similar color schemes but dressed in their own clothes.[/QUOTE]

Yeah definitely. Spitting should be flagged 15 yards for unsportsmanlike.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=diehardskin2982]I don't know why people are blowing this so out of proportion. Taylor is an Asshole. O well, he still a great player, and makes a huge difference for us. Sometimes you need a nasty asshole on your team to itimidate the other team

I'm still a Sean Taylor fan[/QUOTE]

I agree you need a nasty jerk in the backfield on defense. But, not one who gives the other team a 1st down when they were 4th and 15 or who gets ejected in a playoff game.

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Let's save the discussion of the need and importance of social norms for another day. ;)

At least we got to the heart of the matter while staying relatively civil.

I still think you're a homer!

j/k[/QUOTE]

LOL. Don't get me wrong, I'd be VERY happy if Roy Williams got ejected for spitting on Ladell Betts. But I wouldn't agree with the call.

In the Taylor case, I was both VERY unhappy and in disagreement at the same time. Which made for a very angry Schneed10.

(When he was ejected, my wife decided my outburst was the last straw in a series of very animated outbursts, and she went out to get a bite to eat. My dog simultaneously ran to her cage in fear. I had to console the dog for a good 30 minutes after the game to convince her that I wasn't upset at her LOL)

Re: Sean Taylor Spitting Video
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]I agree you need a nasty jerk in the backfield on defense. But, not one who gives the other team a 1st down when they were 4th and 15 or who gets ejected in a playoff game.[/QUOTE]
I think you have to take the good with the bad. Those "nasty jerks" are going to do this on occasion. I am willing to live with it as long as it isn't a weekly affair. But I'd rather he just off and beat the hell out of the f*&^er. At least then other players realize he's a badass who'll kick your nuts off if given the chance. Spitting just makes him look like he's 5 years old. Nothing to gain fom it.