Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=offiss]What do the 80's have to do with today?

Take a good look at those players they were all brought in by Bobby Beathard.

Do you understand that the NFL and defenses are far different now than they were in the 80's?

You do know Gibbs was out of football for 12 year's? It is very difficult to be what you once were with age, let alone taking 12 years off away from the game. There is no way Gibbs could be in tuned to what is going on with personel in college or the NFL that only comes with time.

And just for the record Patton would have flurished in the 80's in that system as well. So to compare the 2 just doesn't wash.

The biggest knock on Gibbs since he has come back is his inability to catch his offense up with today's defenses. But the best job Gibbs has done is hired Williams to run the defense, because without a top dominating defense we are horrible, even with an average or decent defense we get lambasted this past season, we went to the playoffs because our defense carried us there, end of story![/QUOTE]

This is a little harsh. It was not all Greg Williams. Joe Gibbs was never all about X's & O's...he is a leader of men. He gets them to believe and play harder for him than they woluld anyone else. He envigorated the entire organization with a winning attitude. If it was all defense than why didn't spurrier win with the excellent defense that Marvin lewis built for him? Joe Gibbs has turned everything he touches into a winner. Greg Williams in Buffalo was a failure as a head coach even with one of the best defenses in the league. No doubt Greg Williams is a great defensive coach...but it was Gibbs who built the winning foundation and reinstilled the pride in being a Redskin.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=offiss]What do the 80's have to do with today?

Take a good look at those players they were all brought in by Bobby Beathard.

Do you understand that the NFL and defenses are far different now than they were in the 80's?

You do know Gibbs was out of football for 12 year's? It is very difficult to be what you once were with age, let alone taking 12 years off away from the game. There is no way Gibbs could be in tuned to what is going on with personel in college or the NFL that only comes with time.

And just for the record Patton would have flurished in the 80's in that system as well. So to compare the 2 just doesn't wash.

The biggest knock on Gibbs since he has come back is his inability to catch his offense up with today's defenses. But the best job Gibbs has done is hired Williams to run the defense, because without a top dominating defense we are horrible, even with an average or decent defense we get lambasted this past season, we went to the playoffs because our defense carried us there, end of story![/QUOTE]

Our defense was very instrumental in getting us to the playoffs. But the offense didn't just sit on its ass all season. There are still some kinks to work out (as with any team) but to still say that Gibbs' offense hasn't caught up to today's defenses is, well to be blunt, idiotic. It's so idiotic, it's Offissotic (that was mean I know, but damn funny if I may say so myself).

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=celts32]This is a little harsh. It was not all Greg Williams. Joe Gibbs was never all about X's & O's...he is a leader of men. He gets them to believe and play harder for him than they woluld anyone else. He envigorated the entire organization with a winning attitude. If it was all defense than why didn't spurrier win with the excellent defense that Marvin lewis built for him? Joe Gibbs has turned everything he touches into a winner. Greg Williams in Buffalo was a failure as a head coach even with one of the best defenses in the league. No doubt Greg Williams is a great defensive coach...but it was Gibbs who built the winning foundation and reinstilled the pride in being a Redskin.[/QUOTE]

Very good reply, I agree that Gibbs organizational skills are probably maybe the best ever, I also agree that had a big part in the turn around of the team.

But I do disagree with the Lewis analogy, our defense under Lewis although ranked in the top 10 stat wise, never really could stop anyone when it counted, Lewis is not in the same league as Williams defensivly, not even close.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]Our defense was very instrumental in getting us to the playoffs. But the offense didn't just sit on its ass all season. There are still some kinks to work out (as with any team) but to still say that Gibbs' offense hasn't caught up to today's defenses is, well to be blunt, idiotic. It's so idiotic, it's Offissotic (that was mean I know, but damn funny if I may say so myself).[/QUOTE]


HMMMmm, so what do think happened to our offense our last 3 games?

How's the counter trey been working out?

I do beleive we set a record in futility against Tampa for offense for a winning team in the playoffs, Tampa is not the 85' bears are they?

When was the last time we saw an offense that fultile during Gibbs first tenure?

Your more than welcome to prove your point.

I guess when J. Jansen said last year we were running an outdated offense he had it all wrong.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

The counter has been working fine, not sure what you've been watching offiss but we still run it quite regularly and with success. Thomas is one of the best pullers in the league.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

Year Team [b]G[/b] Rec [b]Yds[/b] Y/G [b]Avg[/b] Lng [b]YAC[/b] 1stD [b]TD[/b]
2005-06 St. Louis [b]14[/b] 102 [b]1331[/b] 95.1 [b]13.0[/b] 44 [b]2.4[/b] 63 [b]9[/b] (Torry Holt)
2005-06 Seattle [b]13[/b] 67 [b]778[/b] 59.8 [b]11.6[/b] 56 [b]4.1[/b] 43 [b]3[/b] (Bobby Engram)
2005-06 Arizona [b]16[/b] 103 [b]1409[/b] 88.1 [b]13.7[/b] 47 [b]3.7[/b] 67 [b]10[/b] (Larry Fitzgerald)
2005-06 San Diego [b]16 [/b]57 [b]725[/b] 45.3 [b]12.7[/b] 49 [b]3.0[/b] 35 [b]3[/b] (Eric Parker)
2005-06 Oakland [b]16[/b] 76 [b]942 [/b]58.9 [b]12.4 [/b]49 [b]3.4 [/b]45 [b]5[/b] (Jerry Porter)
2005-06 New Orleans [b]16[/b] 70 [b]945 [/b]59.1 [b]13.5 [/b]43 [b]3.8 [/b]50 [b]7[/b] (Donte Stallworth)
2005-06 Indianapolis [b]16[/b] 83 [b]1055 [/b]65.9 [b]12.7 [/b]66 [b]3.8 [/b]54 [b]5 [/b](Reggie Wayne)
2005-06 Houston [b]16[/b] 55 [b]492 [/b]30.8 [b]8.9 [/b]29 [b]2.3 [/b]31 [b]2[/b] (Jabbar Gaffney)
2005-06 Cincinnati [b]14[/b] 78 [b]956 [/b]68.3 [b]12.3 [/b]43 [b]4.1 [/b]52 [b]7[/b] (TJ Houshmanzadeh)
2005-06 NY Giants [b]16[/b] 60 [b]684 [/b]42.8 [b]11.4 [/b]37 [b]2.7 [/b]37 [b]7[/b] (Amani Toomer)
2005-06 New England [b]13[/b] 59 [b]738 [/b]56.8 [b]12.5 [/b]40 [b]3.9 [/b]32 [b]2[/b] (David Givens)


Someone asked what I expected from a #2. Here is a sample (somewhat random) of #2s (who played an entire season or nearly so) from top of the league to bottom and their outputs. Nearly all of them had better numbers than our current #2 was on pace to get. I expect around 60-70 catches from each of the X and Y receivers (spread the wealth from Santana a bit to save his body) and another 50-60 each from the Z and H-Back [i]positions[/i]. And for an average 300 completion season, that leaves about 60 more receptions to be spread around with TEs, FBs, and RBs--a balanced attack at all levels of the field, NOT a true vertical game. We need a receiver who can give us that 60 catch season with 800-900 yards. Cooley filled that role this season very well, but he's still an overperforming H-Back. What I expect is a solid receiver who is as feared as the #1 (or nearly so), but doesn't have a hang-up about being "THE Man".

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[url="http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20060117-115943-8513r.htm"]http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20060117-115943-8513r.htm[/url]

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=offiss]HMMMmm, so what do think happened to our offense our last 3 games?

How's the counter trey been working out?

I do beleive we set a record in futility against Tampa for offense for a winning team in the playoffs, Tampa is not the 85' bears are they?

When was the last time we saw an offense that fultile during Gibbs first tenure?

Your more than welcome to prove your point.

I guess when J. Jansen said last year we were running an outdated offense he had it all wrong.[/QUOTE]

Counter trey's been working out fine, suffered a bit when Randy Thomas went down though.

We scored over 30 points in a game five different times this season. Something I believe we've only done once in the past decade.

As for Jansen's comments. First off, they were taken before this season. To say the offense hasn't improved from 2004 to 2005 and can't compete with today's defenses is ridiculous. And secondly, he said he thought we were running a 1992 offense. Which is kind of funny, since in 1992 we won the Super Bowl.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

We definitely need a threat at #2, but I'm against going out and finding a free agent to fill that void. I thought we filled that last year with David Patten, and that kind of knee jerk reaction is typical of what we've done in past years. We need to find a way to get other guys the ball, but just finding another wideout is not the answer. We've got to stop trying to find the quick fix, and while I'm definitely for bringing in a big, physical wideout to balance out our offense I don't see why Taylor Jacobs can't be molded to fit that. I know he's been snakebitten by injuries every year he's been with us, but I'd much rather see us go after a pass rushing defensive end who help get us into blitzing situations than to bring in yet another wideout who will most certainly damage our cap situation and still may not help in the long run. Let's run the guys we've got instead of pining away over someone who may not even be the answer.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

It's mainly because Taylor Jacobs is a pansy that lacks killer instinct. I was all for giving him his chance and he blow ALL of them. Time to cut our losses and find someone in FA or the draft.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=SkinsLB5607][url="http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20060117-115943-8513r.htm"]http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20060117-115943-8513r.htm[/url][/QUOTE]

Ahh, I see you're from Niagara Falls. Gmanc, Daseal and I were up there during Christmas. We frequented a place you might recognize, Sundowner's (and pretty much every bar in town).

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=offiss]It did, our offense was at it's best when we hit the Tampa, Cowboy's and Giants, and there was no Patton in any one of those games.

The problem with your statement about TJ is this other posters who attend the games have said the guy does get open but Brunell doesn't consider looking his way.
[/quote]
Well the people who say he was able to consistently get open are wrong. He wasn't. He consistently had no seperation and didn't show any type of ability to use his arms to get off jams at the line.
[QUOTE=offiss]
All of a sudden the Patton injury was a big blow to the offense? Makes me laugh as if he was doing anything before the injury, especially considering he had one of the best WR's in the NFL opposite him, normal rational would say that Patton should have been feasting on defenses who are out to shut down Moss, not the other way around.

Moss had a hard time getting the ball after Patton went down? No your right it didn't cross my mind because that didn't really happen.

Jacobs is worthless? Well so was Patton, I guess Moss didn't catch a ball after Patton went down? Who are you kidding? Moss continued his torid pace with jacobs in there as well, so this fantasy that some how Patton was providing this mysterious double coverage so Moss could rome the secondary with no, or single coverage is just pure fantasy.
[/quote]
Yes losing Patten was a big blow. Moss's numberd DID go down after Patten went down.
------------ R Y Y/R TD
With Patten: 5.9 103 17.6 .55
W/O Patten: 4.5 78 17.6 .28

Patten played in the first 9 games. That makes Moss's number per game all down except yards per catch. You're wrong: his numbers did go down. It is a TESTAMENT TO GIBBS AND BRUNELL that the loss of Patten didn't seem as bad as it really was. It was simply pronounced against the defenses smart enough tor realize it and take advantage.
[QUOTE=offiss]
I am curious who points out on the Skins that Jacobs is a lowsey reciever, I know Gibbs sings his praises in practice, Gibbs put's him out there doesn't he, so now are you saying Gibbs doesn't have a clue? Are you saying gibbs is starting a player who can't play? And if the guy is as bad as you say why is he even on the team, Gibbs watched him all last season, he couldn't evaluate the guy for what he is after a year? Well perhaps we should have addressed the WR position in the draft, rather than drafting a QB with no one to throw to.
[/quote]
I haven't the energy to go find specific quotes but I think others will back me up when I say that more than once while the coaches were praising your man TJ for his practice efforts they also mentioned that he was failing to do the same in games. And yes the coaches put him out there. They put him out there because 2 of our top 3 WRs were down. He is our 4th WR. That's it. 4th. The fact that the Skins were trying every available option they could to get Thrash playing in the Seattle game should show you a little something about what they think of TJ. They'd rather have Thrash with a broken hand and a cast than Jacobs. Not a ringing endorsement.
[QUOTE=offiss]
Bottom line Patton was a big time reciever for the 3 time super bowl champs, comes to us and disapear's. So now JJ is a big time reciever, kind of funny he wasen't that with the Giants, and spends a lot of time on the injured list, systems and QB's can make or break a WR, and that is why I haven't closed the book on Jacobs, when a proven player like Patton disapears in our offense then that should raise a red flag that there could be another problem besides just the reciever. The fact is if Patton didn't do what he did in New England you would be trashing him to, saying the same things about him as you have about Jacobs, Patton spent more time on the bench injured this season than Jacobs?
[/QUOTE]
Disappears? He was on pace for the same type season. And don';t even try to compare injury histories. Jacobs is a walking hernia/abdominal strain/ankle injury while Patten has been hurt once. No comparison.
[QUOTE=offiss]
Maybe Jacobs doesn't have what it takes who know's, but to make that assesment when all he has had is Brunell throwing him the ball just doesn't cut it for me. I seem to remember Coles wasen't overly enomoured with Brunell throwing him the ball either.[/QUOTE]

Brunell wasn't throwing to him actually because he sucks. Plain and simple. He has never shown anything ever in this league. To still support him in the face of insurmountable evidence is strange.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

Can someone find the quote where Jacobs said he was being covered by 2, 4.4 speed corners and there was nothing he could do?

TAFKAS, can you find it for me?

I mean right there should tell you that he doesn't belong in the NFL. You gotta have some swagger and confidence to be a WR at this level.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=SkinsLB5607][url="http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20060117-115943-8513r.htm"]http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20060117-115943-8513r.htm[/url][/QUOTE]

Wow! I didn't realize the cap situation was already so bad.

Maybe we can get Charley Taylor and Roy Jefferson to suit up for the league minimum.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]Ahh, I see you're from Niagara Falls. Gmanc, Daseal and I were up there during Christmas. We frequented a place you might recognize, Sundowner's (and pretty much every bar in town).[/QUOTE]

LOL

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Very good reply, I agree that Gibbs organizational skills are probably maybe the best ever, I also agree that had a big part in the turn around of the team.

But I do disagree with the Lewis analogy, our defense under Lewis although ranked in the top 10 stat wise, never really could stop anyone when it counted, Lewis is not in the same league as Williams defensivly, not even close.[/QUOTE]

I agree that Williams is better than Lewis defensively, but if Williams alone meant winning then he would have won in Buffalo. he had a great defense in Buffalo and might even be able to argue that his offense was better there also. Gibbs is just a winner, plain and simple. You can't find statistics to identify the value that Joe Gibbs brings to an organization.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

I'm not trying to start an arguement, but I have to disagree with you guys about Gregg Williams being better than Marvin Lewis on either side of the ball. Marvin Lewis helped win a Super Bowl as a coordinator and lead one of the greatest D's of all time. He was only here for one year, they would have gotten better, IMO, maybe not, cause Gregg Williams's D didn't get better this year, so I don't really know. However, Marvin Lewis is 10 times the head coach that Gregg Williams is and there's no arguing that. Williams took a decent team and they got really bad, Marvin took the laughing stock of the NFL and took em to the playoffs and hasn't had a losing season there.

IMO it's Lewis 10 times out of 10

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=jdlea]I'm not trying to start an arguement, but I have to disagree with you guys about Gregg Williams being better than Marvin Lewis on either side of the ball. Marvin Lewis helped win a Super Bowl as a coordinator and lead one of the greatest D's of all time. He was only here for one year, they would have gotten better, IMO, maybe not, cause Gregg Williams's D didn't get better this year, so I don't really know. However, Marvin Lewis is 10 times the head coach that Gregg Williams is and there's no arguing that. Williams took a decent team and they got really bad, Marvin took the laughing stock of the NFL and took em to the playoffs and hasn't had a losing season there.

IMO it's Lewis 10 times out of 10[/QUOTE]


That actually makes alot of sense! Look at what Marvin Lewis has done since he became head coach for the Bengals. Gregg Williams couldn't do that when he was in Buffalo. Don't get me wrong, I love Gregg Williams, but if you're going to compare accomplishments, the tide shifts to Lewis.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=jdlea]I'm not trying to start an arguement, but I have to disagree with you guys about Gregg Williams being better than Marvin Lewis on either side of the ball. Marvin Lewis helped win a Super Bowl as a coordinator and lead one of the greatest D's of all time. He was only here for one year, they would have gotten better, IMO, maybe not, cause Gregg Williams's D didn't get better this year, so I don't really know. However, Marvin Lewis is 10 times the head coach that Gregg Williams is and there's no arguing that. Williams took a decent team and they got really bad, Marvin took the laughing stock of the NFL and took em to the playoffs and hasn't had a losing season there.

IMO it's Lewis 10 times out of 10[/QUOTE]

Marvin Lewis's defenses in Cinci have been pretty bad though. That team has won more with offense. The Baltimore players actually made Mike Nolan look like he can coach. GW built top defenses in Buffalo and Washington. Lewis is a good coach also but you need to look at which guy had more defensive talent to work with at each stop. Lewis had hall of fame players in Baltimore. Lewis has been more successful as a head coach than GW, that I would not argue.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

I think I'll give it a try

UFA’s

[b]1)David Givens NE[/b] - Probably a little overrated, rather draft someone
2)Reggie Wayne Ind - be nice but too much $$, probably won't leave Indy
3)Josh Reed Buf - Actually could be good lost out to Evans, change of scene?
4)Randy Hymes Bal - No thanks
5)Antonio Bryant Cle - Character issues (remember Riggins), cheap only
6)Antwaan Randle El Pit - Overrated, don't think he is what Joe wants
7)Eric Moulds Buf - good short term fix. Strong possession WR w/ speed
8)Joe Jurevicius Sea - Not leaving Sea unless big $$$
9)Peter Warrick Sea - Played while in Sea, cheap only
10)Jabar Gaffney Hou - Could be good, may want out of Hou
11)Rod Gardner Car - Not on your life
[b]12)Corey Bradford Hou[/b] - see #10
13)Kevin Johnson Det - No Way
14)Peerless Price Dal - Could relive Buf days, cheap only
15)Dez White Atl - No , been a bust
[b]16)Koren Robinson Min[/b] - Ilike the idea, think it could work.
17)Quincy Morgan Pit - cheap only check out injury.
18)Az-Zhair Hakim NO - No one hit wonder
19)Tim Carter NYG - No thanks
20)David Boston Mia - Washington is a Drug free work place
21)Ike Hillard TB - I like this idea but don't think he will leave TB
22)Troy Brown NE - No Thanks
23)Tim Dwight NE - Too old
24)Jerome Pathon Atl - One hit wonder
25)Charles Lee Ari - Actually solid young receiver
26)Marc Boerighter KC - gets hurt every year, cheap only
27)Reggie Swinton Ari - No thanks
28)Troy Walters Ind - No thanks
29)Patrick Johnson Bal - No thanks

RFA’s

[b]1)Brandon Lloyd SF -[/b] Won't leave with Norv on board.
2)Patrick Crayton Dal - Tuna likes him too much to let him leave to WAS
3)Nate Burleson Min - No thanks
4)Eddie Drummond Det-KR - No thanks
5)Kevin Walter Cin - No thanks
6)Shaun McDonald Stl - No thanks
7)Willie Ponder NYG - No thanks
[b]8)Kevin Curtis Stl[/b] -- probably will NOT be let go by STL
9)Kelley Washington Cin - I like this idea but I would give up much
10)David Tyree NYG - No thanks
11)Derick Armstrong Hou - No thanks
12)Kaseem Osgood SD - No thanks
13)Arnaz Battle SF - No thanks
14)Chris Horn KC - No thanks
15)Bryan Gilmore Mia - No thanks

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=celts32]I agree that Williams is better than Lewis defensively, but if Williams alone meant winning then he would have won in Buffalo. he had a great defense in Buffalo and might even be able to argue that his offense was better there also. Gibbs is just a winner, plain and simple. You can't find statistics to identify the value that Joe Gibbs brings to an organization.[/QUOTE]


That is a dead on outstanding post Celt, very, very, perceptive!

I do beleive that coupled with Williams has been the difference, I absolutly agree 100%, but that alone isn't enough to win a SB, we have to get going on offense, is it the playcalling? Is it the offensive line? Is it the lack of quality #2,3 WR's? Or is it Brunell? That is the question, something needs fixing if we are to take the big step to SB contender.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=jdlea]I'm not trying to start an arguement, but I have to disagree with you guys about Gregg Williams being better than Marvin Lewis on either side of the ball. Marvin Lewis helped win a Super Bowl as a coordinator and lead one of the greatest D's of all time. He was only here for one year, they would have gotten better, IMO, maybe not, cause Gregg Williams's D didn't get better this year, so I don't really know. However, Marvin Lewis is 10 times the head coach that Gregg Williams is and there's no arguing that. Williams took a decent team and they got really bad, Marvin took the laughing stock of the NFL and took em to the playoffs and hasn't had a losing season there.

IMO it's Lewis 10 times out of 10[/QUOTE]


Defiently a good case can be made for that, one thing I will say is this, Williams had the 10 cent brain and million dollar arm at QB in Bledsoe, but that was his own fault, Lewis has done a terrific job so far for Cinnci, but I would take Williams as my D-coordinator any day over Lewis.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

Hard to decide because Lewis has done well and is still doing well but Williams made a good efense out of MUCH less talent than Lewis ever had. Our defense was ok when Lewis was here but it wasn't a game changing defense like it has been the last 2. I am not totally sold on Williams as a head coach but he can coordinate my defense any day.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=offiss]That is a dead on outstanding post Celt, very, very, perceptive!

I do beleive that coupled with Williams has been the difference, I absolutly agree 100%, but that alone isn't enough to win a SB, we have to get going on offense, is it the playcalling? Is it the offensive line? Is it the lack of quality #2,3 WR's? Or is it Brunell? That is the question, something needs fixing if we are to take the big step to SB contender.[/QUOTE]
Definitely. Somthing is wrong and it needs fixing. I hope Gibbs has a better idea than we do because it seems none of us agree much. Guess that's why were not coaches.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

what...nobody would like to see david boston as a skin?

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=Gibbs'IllegitChild]what...nobody would like to see david boston as a skin?[/QUOTE]
ANWAGT

Put this idea on the scrap heap along with trading for TO and bringing Coles back.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

listen...not wanting TO is crazy...hes a headache, but hes the best at his position...do u wanna win or do u want a "happy camp"

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=offiss]
All of a sudden the Patton injury was a big blow to the offense? Makes me laugh as if he was doing anything before the injury, especially considering he had one of the best WR's in the NFL opposite him, normal rational would say that Patton should have been feasting on defenses who are out to shut down Moss, not the other way around.

Moss had a hard time getting the ball after Patton went down? No your right it didn't cross my mind because that didn't really happen.

Jacobs is worthless? Well so was Patton, I guess Moss didn't catch a ball after Patton went down? Who are you kidding? Moss continued his torid pace with jacobs in there as well, so this fantasy that some how Patton was providing this mysterious double coverage so Moss could rome the secondary with no, or single coverage is just pure fantasy.
[/QUOTE]

on TJ, the coaches pointed out that he didn't play well in games and they didn't bench him because there simply wasn't anyone else to put in.

on patten, obviously you haven't done the math:
---BEFORE INJURY---
patten before: 2.4 for 24.1yards
jacobs before: 0.2 for 3.7yards
thrash before: 1.4 for 17yards
farris before: 0.1 for 2yards
[b]Total before: 4.1 catches for 46.8 yards[/b]
---AFTER INJURY---
jacobs after: 1.3 for 9.5yards
thrash after: 0.2 for 5.1yards
[b]Total after: 1.5 catches for 14.6 yards[/b]

[b]moss averaged 104yards per game before patten went down,
and 73 yards afterwards.[/b]

that means that patten added 31(moss) + 32.3(others) yards and 2.5catches of WR offense per game.

[b]and if you think the TEs and RBs made up some of that ground you'd also be dead wrong, cooleys numbers went down, portis's receiving stats went way down and sellers production died too.[/b]
---TEs---
Cooley before: 4.6catches for 52.1yards
cooley after: 4catches for 44.7yards

royal before: 1 for 5.2
royal after: 1.3 for 9.7

sellers before: 1.2 for 7.2 and 6 TDs
sellers after: 0.2 for 0.8 and 2 TDs

other TEs before: 0.2 for 2
other TEs after: 0.1 for 1.6

---RBs---
portis before: 2.3 for 18.1
portis after: 1.3 for 6.6

betts before: 0.9 for 8.2
betts after: 0.7 for 4

rock before: 0 for 0
rock after: 0.2 for 2.6

That means that passing production for WRs fell off by [b]63 yards per game[/b], TEs by 10 yards (and a LOT of TDs), and RBs by 13 yards... that's a difference of [b]86 yards[/b] every game.

of course brunell's clutch play down the stretch :P also hurt, but patten's impact is the primary factor in a reduced passing game (moss's numbers immediately fell and were consistantly low until an outburst in the 2nd giants game).

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

wow, gusbus's thoughts on WRs are almost identical to mine ;) and sociofan, in your #2 analysis, you listed torry holt, but i'm pretty sure he's a #1 and bruce is the aging #2 there ;)

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]on TJ, the coaches pointed out that he didn't play well in games and they didn't bench him because there simply wasn't anyone else to put in.

on patten, obviously you haven't done the math:
---BEFORE INJURY---
patten before: 2.4 for 24.1yards
jacobs before: 0.2 for 3.7yards
thrash before: 1.4 for 17yards
farris before: 0.1 for 2yards
[b]Total before: 4.1 catches for 46.8 yards[/b]
---AFTER INJURY---
jacobs after: 1.3 for 9.5yards
thrash after: 0.2 for 5.1yards
[b]Total after: 1.5 catches for 14.6 yards[/b]

[b]moss averaged 104yards per game before patten went down,
and 73 yards afterwards.[/b]

that means that patten added 31(moss) + 32.3(others) yards and 2.5catches of WR offense per game.

[b]and if you think the TEs and RBs made up some of that ground you'd also be dead wrong, cooleys numbers went down, portis's receiving stats went way down and sellers production died too.[/b]
---TEs---
Cooley before: 4.6catches for 52.1yards
cooley after: 4catches for 44.7yards

royal before: 1 for 5.2
royal after: 1.3 for 9.7

sellers before: 1.2 for 7.2 and 6 TDs
sellers after: 0.2 for 0.8 and 2 TDs

other TEs before: 0.2 for 2
other TEs after: 0.1 for 1.6

---RBs---
portis before: 2.3 for 18.1
portis after: 1.3 for 6.6

betts before: 0.9 for 8.2
betts after: 0.7 for 4

rock before: 0 for 0
rock after: 0.2 for 2.6

That means that passing production for WRs fell off by [b]63 yards per game[/b], TEs by 10 yards (and a LOT of TDs), and RBs by 13 yards... that's a difference of [b]86 yards[/b] every game.

of course brunell's clutch play down the stretch :P also hurt, but patten's impact is the primary factor in a reduced passing game (moss's numbers immediately fell and were consistantly low until an outburst in the 2nd giants game).[/QUOTE]

The best point I guess I can make is this, who was singing Pattons praises before he was hurt, most of the questions were whats wrong with him, he's not performing like he did in New England. Now if Patton was such a big deal to the passing game, why do we have post after post, and thread after thread on our need for a #2 WR? Obviously we have one already on our roster in Patton, maybe the thread should read who's going to be our #3 reciever. Either Patton is the goods, or he is not. I do beleive right before Patton was hurt he made a comment about his lack of use in our offense, for what ever that is worth.

If we dump Jacobs so be it, although I don't really know if his failure so far is all his fault but it could really be, I don't know for sure, obviously judging him by his production he's a big bust, and maybe he is, and probably defiently as far as we are concerned.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

[QUOTE=offiss]The best point I guess I can make is this, who was singing Pattons praises before he was hurt, most of the questions were whats wrong with him, he's not performing like he did in New England. Now if Patton was such a big deal to the passing game, why do we have post after post, and thread after thread on our need for a #2 WR? Obviously we have one already on our roster in Patton, maybe the thread should read who's going to be our #3 reciever. Either Patton is the goods, or he is not. I do beleive right before Patton was hurt he made a comment about his lack of use in our offense, for what ever that is worth.

If we dump Jacobs so be it, although I don't really know if his failure so far is all his fault but it could really be, I don't know for sure, obviously judging him by his production he's a big bust, and maybe he is, and probably defiently as far as we are concerned.[/QUOTE]

cause patten didn't seem to be productive and individually he really wasn't (and an upgrade to production while also allowing the skins to cover for injury and provide 3 good WRs can't hurt). When you look at the numbers though the overall impact is pretty big. The only play I actually remember from patten was that 40-50yard PI call he got... either way we do need more talent there since we saw how good our other options really were.

As for jacobs, his numbers are bad, he's lack of history of production means no one bothers planning for him, and after he stinks up a game (oakland) he says things like "one of their CBs runs a 4.4 and the other a 4.2, what do you expect me to do?" There's just no killer instinct there besides the injury history. That's not the only excuse he's made either, but its the one I remember the best.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

Patten is a proven 3rd. Jacobs has scored less TD's than Darnarian McCants who plays for the Eagles now. Patten will be back, but we must add another WR and trade Jacobs for something; perhaps a gatorade cooler.

Re: Free Agent WRs
 

I think most of us had no idea what affect Patten was having on the passing game. It was only noticed once he was gone.