Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

detroit was looking to get out from under rogers.. oft injured. some substance issues, but a world of talent...
he could end up cut this off season as well

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

they won't tag abraham because he would cost too much and the jets would rather cut him (or leave him a free agent, rather) and get out from under his contract.

plus, abraham seems to be always getting nicked and is always going public with his issues. not sure i want him over howard or raheem brock or aaron kampman.

abraham reminds me far too much of javon kearse. oft injured and never as productive as philly would have liked. buyer beware on abraham

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

I would be happy for a 3rd or 4th rounder for him. But the word was last offseason a deal was almost made with Jets for Abraham and a 3 or 4th.....
THAT WOULD BE GRT!!! But we need a few players to restructure.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=shallyshal]they won't tag abraham because he would cost too much and the jets would rather cut him (or leave him a free agent, rather) and get out from under his contract.

plus, abraham seems to be always getting nicked and is always going public with his issues. not sure i want him over howard or raheem brock or aaron kampman.

abraham reminds me far too much of javon kearse. oft injured and never as productive as philly would have liked. buyer beware on abraham[/QUOTE]
I agree. But look at Denver taking chances on their injury prone D-Line cats they brought in.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=BrudLee]Do you [I]actually[/I] think denim_monger would allow that?[/QUOTE]

John Clayton is reporting that he'd accept the trade if the Skins also agree to sign his good buddies ZackMills and Skinz_Domin8

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=skins052bgr8]My buddy said he saw something over at Extremeskins that said a deal was worked between him and Abraham along with a draft pick. I can't get to extremeskins to verify this, or it is not showing on ESPN or other sites. Can anyone look at that and post if it is true.[/QUOTE]

Abraham is a free agent, trading anything for him would be beyon stupid. That's a rumor that also circulated a year ago.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=jdlea]Nah, we'll have to trade for him cause Abraham will probably get the franchise tag.[/QUOTE]

how? their cap situation is even worse than ours...

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

i dont see ramsey getting either donte or porter either... 1000 yard receiver for an QB that's regarded as a backup or average. plus why would either one of those teams give up the very thing they need to make their new QB successful.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=shallyshal]new orleans cannot trade howard. he is a free agent. the skins can, and should sign him this offseason[/QUOTE]

Maybe this could be a new trend for the Redskins and D-Lineman. Take guys that other teams origninally expected to be a star but just weren't playing up to their potential (a la C. Griffin and the Giants) and bring em to Washington where they will play at a pro-bowl level (not a la Dana Stubblefield)

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

howard is decent, but i think guys like kampman may be in a similar price range and much mroe productive. (then again 6.5 sacks and [b]82[/b] tackles from a DE is crazy, so who knows what his price will be)

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=offiss]:lol:

Love it!

I really have to ask, what do we do next year if Brunell goes down early and is out for the year? Does anyone think Campbell is ready to take us to a SB?

The fact is if all we can get for Ramsey is a third rd pick, then there is no way I trade him, with the addition of Saunders and a couple good moves in the offseason we are IMO a bonified SB contender, we can't allow that to slip away because we need a third rd pick for Ramsey that's ridiculous.

Ramsey has far more value to us as a backup, than anything a third rd pick would bring.

The only WR I would really want out of Detroit is R.Williams, Rogers probably can be had for a lot less than Ramsey.

Stallworth is intriging, I am up in the air on Porter.[/QUOTE]

I think you're right, we shouldn't let Ramsey go for a third rounder. Espcicially since we're close right now. I think the only way Gibbs would fully endorse this trade is if we acquired a bonafide vet to back up Brunell. Otherwise, we would be taking a crap shoot that Campbell will pan out, even if he's that good.

Ramsey, may be served very well to stay one more year - who knows, Danny may sweeten the pot for him too!

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

I agree 12thman...I dont think Gibbs will let PR go with out a backup plan with another VET to be either #3 or #2 pending on what the Coaches see in JC.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]I think you're right, we shouldn't let Ramsey go for a third rounder. [/QUOTE]
Wha???? You wouldn't take a 3rd round pick for a player that took the equivalent of less than a full games worth of snaps last year, has 25 fumbles and 29 INT in 33 games a 75.0 passer rating and a losing record as a starter? I think Matt Millen has a director of player personnel position available for you and Offiss. :silly:

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]i dont see ramsey getting either donte or porter either... 1000 yard receiver for an QB that's regarded as a backup or average. plus why would either one of those teams give up the very thing they need to make their new QB successful.[/QUOTE]
However, with both New Orleans and Oakland getting new coaches, Ramsey could be the guy they bring in to compete for a starting job. They'll want to get guys they can mold, and Ramsey is definitely smart enough (Tulane isn't your Harvard on the Pike Community College) to learn. Plus, both Stallworth and Porter could be easily replaced via the draft.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain]Wha???? You wouldn't take a 3rd round pick for a player that took the equivalent of less than a full games worth of snaps last year, has 25 fumbles and 29 INT in 33 games a 75.0 passer rating and a losing record as a starter? I think Matt Millen has a director of player personnel position available for you and Offiss. :silly:[/QUOTE]

Hahaha...I like how you mentioned me in Offiss together. :)

Stats aside, I just don't think it would be a prudent move to let Ramsey go just like that. The issue isn't whether it's a third round pick or not, the issue is who and the hell is gonna back up Brunell if he goes down.

Forget about the regular season, suppose he tweaks that knee in training camp?
Sure Campbell could be ready, no arguing that. But is he that ready?

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]Hahaha...I like how you mentioned me in Offiss together. :)

Stats aside, I just don't think it would be a prudent move to let Ramsey go just like that. The issue isn't whether it's a third round pick or not, the issue is who and the hell is gonna back up Brunell if he goes down.

Forget about the regular season, suppose he tweaks that knee in training camp?
Sure Campbell could be ready, no arguing that. But is he that ready?[/QUOTE]
I expect them to bring in a veteran (maybe even Todd Collins from KC, if available) to be the 3rd stringer but who also could be the emergency starter if Brunell goes down early and Campbell isn't ready.. If there is a training camp injury I think they'd go with Campbell and ride it out for 4-5 games to see what he can do..

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain]Wha???? You wouldn't take a 3rd round pick for a player that took the equivalent of less than a full games worth of snaps last year, has 25 fumbles and 29 INT in 33 games a 75.0 passer rating and a losing record as a starter? I think Matt Millen has a director of player personnel position available for you and Offiss. :silly:[/QUOTE]


What was Brunells QB rating in 2004? Perhaps you should add Gibbs to that list as well. he did stick with an old QB who proved to have one of the worst seasons I ever saw.

What would you give up for Drew Brees, you know the QB who was about to be cut, only a prolonged holdout by Rivers saved his carreer, please would you explain Brees for me, I can't for the life of me figure out how such a horrible QB could become an all pro? Could it possibly have something to do with the coaching and talent around him? Just curious.

It wasen't like Ramsey was surrounded by losers his first 2 years? Brunell himself has stated several times that he thinks Patrick is extremly talented and can be a very good QB in the NFL, perhaps he realized as well last season was an effort in futiltiy for any QB in our offense.

And just for the record for all the Ramsey bashers, Troy Aikmen didn't do jack his first 3 years, in fact there was talk of bust, and Buerline being a better QB, as well as Walsh being the air apparent, not until his 4th year did he finally become a great QB. He also had much more playing time leading up to that 4th year than ramsey, as well as one coach and 1 system.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

todd collins cannot be relied on to start even as a backup to brunell or campbell. the guy hasnt thrown a td since 2002, and hasnt thrown more than 12 passes in a season since 1997

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

Wow, now we're comparing Ramsey to Aikman??

You've got to be kidding me.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

Ramsey to Miami a 5th rd pick so they can have the Ferotte-Ramsey-Rosenfels triple threat. Jacobs and Thrash to NE for Flutie. We cut Hall and have Flutie do drop-kicks for FG's.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=offiss]
It wasen't like Ramsey was surrounded by losers his first 2 years? Brunell himself has stated several times that he thinks Patrick is extremly talented and can be a very good QB in the NFL, perhaps he realized as well last season was an effort in futiltiy for any QB in our offense.[/Quote]

Which season are you referring to? This season proves this statement incorrect.

[QUOTE=offiss]
And just for the record for all the Ramsey bashers, Troy Aikmen didn't do jack his first 3 years[/QUOTE]

Oh Lord! You're comparing Patrick Ramsey to Troy Aikmen?

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

The problem with trading Ramsey is that it has to be a team that really needs a strong armed trainable QB that they don't already have on their roster. If Pennington can't return to form Ramsey would be a good fit. New Orleans may also be a good team for Ramsey. So far, Ramsey hasn't proven anything as far as consistency. Any team would be taking a risk trading for him meaning we can expect a mid round pick or a risky player in return.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]Which season are you referring to? This season proves this statement incorrect.



Oh Lord! You're comparing Patrick Ramsey to Troy Aikmen?[/QUOTE]


How do figure? The point being made is there has been plenty of players who have been written off and became good or great. I never said Ramsey would be Aikman, but he could be Brees, who I also compared his circumstance as well.

Funny if you have compared Aikman to lets say staubach in his 3rd year you would have been laughed at as well, how did that turn out?

If someone told you Drew Brees would be a pro bowler before the start of the 2004 season how would that have gone over?

I am not saying it will happen what I am saying just because a guy is on the bench, or is still growing as QB doesn't mean he wont become a good QB, some guy's take longer to fully develope.

YOU SEE!!!!! :rolleyes:

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

He could also be Akili Smith or Ryan Leaf

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]He could also be Akili Smith or Ryan Leaf[/QUOTE]


I will go out on a limb with that comparison and say impossible.

Perhaps Trent Dilfer might be a better comparison. ;)

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=offiss]How do figure? The point being made is there has been plenty of players who have been written off and became good or great. I never said Ramsey would be Aikman, but he could be Brees, who I also compared his circumstance as well.

Funny if you have compared Aikman to lets say staubach in his 3rd year you would have been laughed at as well, how did that turn out?

If someone told you Drew Brees would be a pro bowler before the start of the 2004 season how would that have gone over?

I am not saying it will happen what I am saying just because a guy is on the bench, or is still growing as QB doesn't mean he wont become a good QB, some guy's take longer to fully develope.

YOU SEE!!!!! :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Offiss, your entire argument regarding Ramsey boils down to one thing. You think he'd be good if he was just given the opportunity to play. But you don't even seem to consider that there might be a reason he's not getting that opportunity under Gibbs.

You also seem to glance over turnovers as if they're not of any importance when evaluating a QB. But in fact turnovers are the biggest reason any team wins or loses any given game. Brunell's 23 TDs to 10 INTs this year speaks for itself. The QB rating may have been 85.9 this year, just as Ramsey's was last year. But Brunell's QB rating was depressed by the number of times he chose to throw the ball away in tough situations rather than force passes.

Fumbles lost do not show up in the QB rating formula either. And that's what Ramsey does best. He's got a LONG way to go before he becomes Drew Brees.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=offiss]What was Brunells QB rating in 2004? Perhaps you should add Gibbs to that list as well. he did stick with an old QB who proved to have one of the worst seasons I ever saw.

What would you give up for Drew Brees, you know the QB who was about to be cut, only a prolonged holdout by Rivers saved his carreer, please would you explain Brees for me, I can't for the life of me figure out how such a horrible QB could become an all pro? Could it possibly have something to do with the coaching and talent around him? Just curious.

It wasen't like Ramsey was surrounded by losers his first 2 years? Brunell himself has stated several times that he thinks Patrick is extremly talented and can be a very good QB in the NFL, perhaps he realized as well last season was an effort in futiltiy for any QB in our offense.

And just for the record for all the Ramsey bashers, Troy Aikmen didn't do jack his first 3 years, in fact there was talk of bust, and Buerline being a better QB, as well as Walsh being the air apparent, not until his 4th year did he finally become a great QB. He also had much more playing time leading up to that 4th year than ramsey, as well as one coach and 1 system.[/QUOTE]

I don't know what Brunell's 2004 QB rating was (rather terrible I think) but his career numbers were solid. My comment was that if you were offered a third round pick for a qb with those career numbers [b]and[/b] that you have shown no confidence in then you are not a football person. You have a much higher opinion of Ramsey than most football people do, a 3rd round pick is probably the most we can expect to receive.

As for Drew Brees, remember that if there wasn't a holdout Rivers was expected to come into camp as the starter. That was the plan. Everything came together for Brees, IMO, with the emergence of Gates and the trade for McCardell. Yes, the talent around him had a lot to do with it, but with the Redskins talent Brunell looked much better than Ramsey in camp and in pre-season games and the staff clearly didn't have confidence in PR after the Chicago game.. What was it, 3 possessions, 2 turnovers?

I'll admit that I am not a Ramsey supporter anymore but I base my assertion that he won't be a Redskin on the actions of the coaching staff and front office. They have had 2 offseasons and brought in 2 QB. He is not in their plans, period. Maybe Ramsey will develop into a great QB one day (I personally doubt it) but I know it won't be as a Redskin.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain]I don't know what Brunell's 2004 QB rating was (rather terrible I think) but his career numbers were solid. My comment was that if you were offered a third round pick for a qb with those career numbers [b]and[/b] that you have shown no confidence in then you are not a football person. You have a much higher opinion of Ramsey than most football people do, a 3rd round pick is probably the most we can expect to receive.

As for Drew Brees, remember that if there wasn't a holdout Rivers was expected to come into camp as the starter. That was the plan. Everything came together for Brees, IMO, with the emergence of Gates and the trade for McCardell. Yes, the talent around him had a lot to do with it, but with the Redskins talent Brunell looked much better than Ramsey in camp and in pre-season games and the staff clearly didn't have confidence in PR after the Chicago game.. What was it, 3 possessions, 2 turnovers?

I'll admit that I am not a Ramsey supporter anymore but I base my assertion that he won't be a Redskin on the actions of the coaching staff and front office. They have had 2 offseasons and brought in 2 QB. He is not in their plans, period. Maybe Ramsey will develop into a great QB one day (I personally doubt it) but I know it won't be as a Redskin.[/QUOTE]


There was a former Jet GM on the radio a month or so ago, he works in some compasity for the NFL, or writting for them [not sure] but he said that he knew several GM's who think a lot more highly of Ramsey than the fans and the skins organization.

Talent evaluation is being able to evaluate an individual within his circumstances, some players can look much better than they are because they are in a great circumstance, [see AJ Feeley] then other can look horrible because of their circumstances [see Drew Brees] that is what seperates the great GM's from the average run of the mill smuck, who just looks at a stat sheet and makes a determination.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

It could be because these other GMs don't see as much of Ramsey as the Redskins do. Are they at every practice, every meeting, every film room session?

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=offiss]There was a former Jet GM on the radio a month or so ago, he works in some compasity for the NFL, or writting for them [not sure] but he said that he knew several GM's who think a lot more highly of Ramsey than the fans and the skins organization.

Talent evaluation is being able to evaluate an individual within his circumstances, some players can look much better than they are because they are in a great circumstance, [see AJ Feeley] then other can look horrible because of their circumstances [see Drew Brees] that is what seperates the great GM's from the average run of the mill smuck, who just looks at a stat sheet and makes a determination.[/QUOTE]

Wait, so he's a former GM (meaning he lost his job) and he's a great GM because he doesn't just look at stat sheets?

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=offiss]There was a former Jet GM on the radio a month or so ago, he works in some compasity for the NFL, or writting for them [not sure] but he said that he knew several GM's who think a lot more highly of Ramsey than the fans and the skins organization.

Talent evaluation is being able to evaluate an individual within his circumstances, some players can look much better than they are because they are in a great circumstance, [see AJ Feeley] then other can look horrible because of their circumstances [see Drew Brees] that is what seperates the great GM's from the average run of the mill smuck, who just looks at a stat sheet and makes a determination.[/QUOTE]
It was Pat Kirwan who works for NFL Network & writes for NFL.com who has said that Ramsey is held in higher regard by some GMs but that still doesn't mean they are going to give up a high pick for him. I'd love to get a 1st or second round pick for him but I don't see it happening.

I agree with the talent evaluation part of it, but my point is if you are offered a third round pick then you have to strongly consider it. Ramsey has shown more negatively than Feely did and probably won't warrant a 2nd round pick. I really don't base my opinion on Ramsey completely on his stats (though I am alarmed at his fumble numbers and his W-L) but the fact that he looks flustered and lost a lot and makes poor decisions when pressured.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]It could be because these other GMs don't see as much of Ramsey as the Redskins do. Are they at every practice, every meeting, every film room session?[/QUOTE]


I really don't want to sound cocky about this, but IT IS only a matter of time before Ramsey proves he's a bonified starter, I have no doubt in my mind. But it's just senseless at this point to keep debating, we can come back to this when it's all said and done and reflect on who was right and who was wrong, we are just going in circles. :insane:

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=offiss]I really don't want to sound cocky about this, but IT IS only a matter of time before Ramsey proves he's a bonified starter, I have no doubt in my mind. But it's just senseless at this point to keep debating, we can come back to this when it's all said and done and reflect on who was right and who was wrong, we are just going in circles. :insane:[/QUOTE]

And yet you have nothing to substantiate that claim. You're just going off your own conjecture.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=offiss]I really don't want to sound cocky about this, but IT IS only a matter of time before Ramsey proves he's a bonified starter, I have no doubt in my mind. But it's just senseless at this point to keep debating, we can come back to this when it's all said and done and reflect on who was right and who was wrong, we are just going in circles. :insane:[/QUOTE]


And if he does, then you would've guessed right since you don't have any evidence to support such a claim, and if he doesn't, then you'll forever stick with the excuse that he didn't get a fair shot - no matter where he winds up playing.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]And if he does, then you would've guessed right since you don't have any evidence to support such a claim, and if he doesn't, then you'll forever stick with the excuse that he didn't get a fair shot - no matter where he winds up playing.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. And "bonafied starter" is an awfully vague term. But whatever, he believes that Ramsey is the real deal and that Brunell had no positive impact whatsoever on our team this year. Good for him. It helps him sleep at night

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]Exactly. And "bonafied starter" is an awfully vague term. But whatever, he believes that Ramsey is the real deal and that Brunell had no positive impact whatsoever on our team this year. Good for him. It helps him sleep at night[/QUOTE]
Yeah and I think he is right 100% right!!!! And I sleep very well too:)

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

An interesting search reveals that Gibbs had never drafted a QB in the first round until Jason Campbell. Jay Schroeder and Cary Conklin were both 2nd round picks. Gibbs is a gut feeling type of guy. I think he sees uncertainty in Patrick and needs somoeone who steps up and assumes a leadership role willingly. Patrick so far has shown that he is a thrower, not a passer (yet). I was a Ramsey fan now I'm not excited to keep him nor glad to see him go. A lot of good QB's take a while to develop even then it is sometimes a case of "right time, right place". Patrick may not be lost cause but I think Gibbs is ready to let Jason Campbell be the next QB to take the 'Skins to the Super Bowl.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

I guess TAFKAS! I just don't understand it. If Ramsey was starting and had the same exact year that Brunell had or better, then I would have fully supported Ramsey. My loyality lies with the team and not just certain players. I stick up for Brunell, because everybody wrote him off last year - including myself. He came back this year and had a very good year for the most part. I realize he had some bad games, but even the Super Bowl quarterbacks we had on this team had bad games once in awhile.

However, if Jason Campbell steps in next year and shows he's ready, then I'll support him 100%! If somehow Ramsey stays on the team (not likely) and starts and plays well, I'll support him. But, I'll keep supporting Brunell as long as he plays and brings in wins for us. If he can't, Gibbs and company are smart enough to know when to the pull the trigger. They haven't made any bad personnel decisions yet.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

When we have these discussions about PR, no one ever seems to consider what Ramsey wants to do. He does not want to be a backup for us, period. This whole, "let's keep him another year as a backup to Brunell" debate is pointless if he doesn't want to be here. Gibbs NEVER keeps guys who don't want to play for him, and Ramsey is good enough to at least compete for a starting job at a few teams in the NFL. I will not comment on the "will ge be good elsewhere" debate because I frankly have no idea if he will be a good QB, as I've seen good things and bad things from him. But unless he is completely willing to be a backup, we won't keep him, and I think JC should be our #2 guy next year anyways.

Re: The perfect trade for Ramsey
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]I guess TAFKAS! I just don't understand it. If Ramsey was starting and had the same exact year that Brunell had or better, then I would have fully supported Ramsey. My loyality lies with the team and not just certain players. I stick up for Brunell, because everybody wrote him off last year - including myself. He came back this year and had a very good year for the most part. I realize he had some bad games, but even the Super Bowl quarterbacks we had on this team had bad games once in awhile.

However, if Jason Campbell steps in next year and shows he's ready, then I'll support him 100%! If somehow Ramsey stays on the team (not likely) and starts and plays well, I'll support him. But, I'll keep supporting Brunell as long as he plays and brings in wins for us. If he can't, Gibbs and company are smart enough to know when to the pull the trigger. They haven't made any bad personnel decisions yet.[/QUOTE]
Ditto.