Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]I understand your point.

In a perfect world you would get a 1st rounder in return for Ramsey since that's what it cost us, but obviously this isn't a perfect world.

What did we get for Rod Gardner? A 6th rounder?[/QUOTE]

What's important to remember is that Ramsey was the last pick in round one. So even a 1% drop in his value puts his value at a #2 pick even in a perfect world. Also since Patrick was the last pick in round #1 it means that every other team in the league passed on him in round #1. So the league as a whole never even believed he was a 1st round pick at any point in his life. If the skins get anything more than a #3 they robbed somebody...and a #4 is more likely his value.

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=celts32]What's important to remember is that Ramsey was the last pick in round one. So even a 1% drop in his value puts his value at a #2 pick even in a perfect world. Also since Patrick was the last pick in round #1 it means that every other team in the league passed on him in round #1. So the league as a whole never even believed he was a 1st round pick at any point in his life. If the skins get anything more than a #3 they robbed somebody...and a #4 is more likely his value.[/QUOTE]

Interesting, what round was Montana picked? How bout Rypien, how far did Marino drop, what about Brady? Not that Patrick will ever be any of those QB's, all though I believe he is far better than Rypien, the point is Ramsey showed serious potential under SS, basically everyone was saying if this guy gets some protection he's going to be real good, the only thing that has hurt him since is that a hall of fame coach has benched him, so everyone believes something is wrong with him.

Bottom line, only time will deciede this debate. But remember Brady was on the bench behind a lowsey QB in Bledsoe, but because he was a top pick and had a big name he played, guess what? The coach who many are considering one of the great coaches of all time, and who many believe has passed Parcells by on the elite coaching ranks in history WAS WRONG! Brady was a nobody, a 6th rd pick, and if it wasen't for an injury he may still be on that bench who knows? But we do know this, Brady is already an all time great and he was sitting behind the likes of Bledsoe!

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=celts32]What's important to remember is that Ramsey was the last pick in round one. So even a 1% drop in his value puts his value at a #2 pick even in a perfect world. Also since Patrick was the last pick in round #1 it means that every other team in the league passed on him in round #1. So the league as a whole never even believed he was a 1st round pick at any point in his life. If the skins get anything more than a #3 they robbed somebody...and a #4 is more likely his value.[/QUOTE]

I agree totally. The tendency for us as fans is to inflate the value of our players. (See the "Fergy" discussion for an example of another team's fans falling victim) If we get a 3rd rounder for Ramsey we should make for the hills of Mexico. Yaahhhh!

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Interesting, what round was Montana picked? How bout Rypien, how far did Marino drop, what about Brady? Not that Patrick will ever be any of those QB's, all though I believe he is far better than Rypien, the point is Ramsey showed serious potential under SS, basically everyone was saying if this guy gets some protection he's going to be real good, the only thing that has hurt him since is that a hall of fame coach has benched him, so everyone believes something is wrong with him.

Bottom line, only time will deciede this debate. But remember Brady was on the bench behind a lowsey QB in Bledsoe, but because he was a top pick and had a big name he played, guess what? The coach who many are considering one of the great coaches of all time, and who many believe has passed Parcells by on the elite coaching ranks in history WAS WRONG! Brady was a nobody, a 6th rd pick, and if it wasen't for an injury he may still be on that bench who knows? But we do know this, Brady is already an all time great and he was sitting behind the likes of Bledsoe![/QUOTE]

The difference with all the QB's you mentioned is that, once they got their opportunity, they didn't sit back down. Ramsey has had ample opportunity and has shown strengths and weaknesses but has never exhiibited enough of the first make any coach say "DAMN - this kid's got 'IT'." This is not a slam on Ramsey and it is not saying he will never be that kind of QB, just that in his 4 years here he hasn't ever gone beyond potential greatness. Marino (who was a late round 1st draft pick) came in and never looked back, Montana & Brady the same.

As for trade value, are you seriously suggesting that we could get anything beyond a 3rd for Ramsey?

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin]The difference with all the QB's you mentioned is that, once they got their opportunity, they didn't sit back down. Ramsey has had ample opportunity and has shown strengths and weaknesses but has never exhiibited enough of the first make any coach say "DAMN - this kid's got 'IT'." This is not a slam on Ramsey and it is not saying he will never be that kind of QB, just that in his 4 years here he hasn't ever gone beyond potential greatness. Marino (who was a late round 1st draft pick) came in and never looked back, Montana & Brady the same.

As for trade value, are you seriously suggesting that we could get anything beyond a 3rd for Ramsey?[/QUOTE]


Defiently! If AJ Feeley can bring back a second so can Patrick.

I do believe those other QB's were put into much better circustances when they had their shot.

I wouldn't consider 1 quarter a fair assesment of Ramsey, We all know he outplayed Brunell the previous season, so after 1 quarter this past season he can't get the job done? Whoever thinks that's a fair opportunity can, I just hope you never run into that type of judgement in your life.

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Defiently! If AJ Feeley can bring back a second so can Patrick.

I do believe those other QB's were put into much better circustances when they had their shot.

I wouldn't consider 1 quarter a fair assesment of Ramsey, We all know he outplayed Brunell the previous season, so after 1 quarter this past season he can't get the job done? Whoever thinks that's a fair opportunity can, I just hope you never run into that type of judgement in your life.[/QUOTE]
Feeley went 4-1 down the stretch for a playoff team in '02, was young (as is Ramsey) and had 'upside' according to the experts.. It was also the perfect storm for that trade to happen.. Miami was desperate for a young QB with upside, Feeley had buzz surrounding him.. That trade has been roundly criticized because it was a huge bust for the Dolphins.. If anything that will hurt us in the potential trade market.. Ramsey has shown more negative traits than Feeley had when they hit the trade market..

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

The bottom line is that Ramsey is a seasoned NFL QB who has shown an ability to win games as a starting QB. While he has made mistakes, he has also shown improvement with his touch on throws. His downside is his lack of mobilty and desire to force plays to happen.

I really believe that being in the starting role more would improve his problem with forcing plays. If we cant get a second round pick for him, from a business point of view, I can't see why we would trade him. I guess that I just think that a smart team would rather have a quality backup QB than a second round gamble on draft day.

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

I think the team should think of Patrick while they shop him. It's a waste for him to be here. He's not the QB of the present or the future. He needs to move on. I hope, for his sake, that the Skins make the deal.

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain]Feeley went 4-1 down the stretch for a playoff team in '02, was young (as is Ramsey) and had 'upside' according to the experts.. It was also the perfect storm for that trade to happen.. Miami was desperate for a young QB with upside, Feeley had buzz surrounding him.. That trade has been roundly criticized because it was a huge bust for the Dolphins.. If anything that will hurt us in the potential trade market.. Ramsey has shown more negative traits than Feeley had when they hit the trade market..[/QUOTE]


It was probably the same experts who believe Ramsey can't play, because anyone with 2 eye's could see the guy was horrible, all he did was try to manage a game and not lose it as the rest of the team as a whole won it.

I laughed when that trade went down, it was so obvious that Feeley was the benefactor of being on a superior team. Just another case of someone evaluating a player because they saw his win lose record without looking at the circumstances that led to it, and whether or not those wins and loses stemmed directly from his play? Feeley was, and is, a joke of a QB, yet he commanded a #2, if we couldn't get a #2 for Ramsey at least, then I think we are foolish to trade him.

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=offiss]It was probably the same experts who believe Ramsey can't play, because anyone with 2 eye's could see the guy was horrible, all he did was try to manage a game and not lose it as the rest of the team as a whole won it.

I laughed when that trade went down, it was so obvious that Feeley was the benefactor of being on a superior team. Just another case of someone evaluating a player because they saw his win lose record without looking at the circumstances that led to it, and whether or not those wins and loses stemmed directly from his play? Feeley was, and is, a joke of a QB, yet he commanded a #2, [b]if we couldn't get a #2 for Ramsey at least, then I think we are foolish to trade him.[/b][/QUOTE]
Ok, what's the alternative? Let's look at facts here and remove opinion from the equation.

Gibbs has done all he can (brought in 2 QB in 2 offseasons, immediately demoted Ramsey week 2, openly praised Campbell at the end of year presser while not even discussing Ramsey until questioned, didn't call him when Saunders was brought in but called Brunell and Campbell) to demostrate that he doens't believe Ramsey is the future at the position. Ramsey has said that he wants to play and he wants to start.

Is your suggestion that if the Redskins cannot get at least a 2nd round pick they should keep a player that they clearly have no intention of giving a chance to win the starting job?

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Interesting, what round was Montana picked? How bout Rypien, how far did Marino drop, what about Brady? Not that Patrick will ever be any of those QB's, all though I believe he is far better than Rypien, the point is Ramsey showed serious potential under SS, basically everyone was saying if this guy gets some protection he's going to be real good, the only thing that has hurt him since is that a hall of fame coach has benched him, so everyone believes something is wrong with him.

Bottom line, only time will deciede this debate. But remember Brady was on the bench behind a lowsey QB in Bledsoe, but because he was a top pick and had a big name he played, guess what? The coach who many are considering one of the great coaches of all time, and who many believe has passed Parcells by on the elite coaching ranks in history WAS WRONG! Brady was a nobody, a 6th rd pick, and if it wasen't for an injury he may still be on that bench who knows? But we do know this, Brady is already an all time great and he was sitting behind the likes of Bledsoe![/QUOTE]

The difference is that Brady has shown on the field to be worth much more than the 6th round pick he started as. Can anyone say the same for Patrick? It doesn't matter if he deservd to be benched or not. All that matters is that 4 years in he still has not established himself as a starter. And you don't think this lowers his value in other teams minds?

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=jdlea]I think the team should think of Patrick while they shop him. It's a waste for him to be here. He's not the QB of the present or the future. He needs to move on. I hope, for his sake, that the Skins make the deal.[/QUOTE]

The skins have no obligations to patrick beyond his weekly paycheck. they need to make the best deal for the Washington Redskins not Patrick Ramsey.

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=celts32]The skins have no obligations to patrick beyond his weekly paycheck. they need to make the best deal for the Washington Redskins not Patrick Ramsey.[/QUOTE]

I realize that, they've been making that perfectly clear for the last 2 years.

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain]Ok, what's the alternative? Let's look at facts here and remove opinion from the equation.

Gibbs has done all he can (brought in 2 QB in 2 offseasons, immediately demoted Ramsey week 2, openly praised Campbell at the end of year presser while not even discussing Ramsey until questioned, didn't call him when Saunders was brought in but called Brunell and Campbell) to demostrate that he doens't believe Ramsey is the future at the position. Ramsey has said that he wants to play and he wants to start.

Is your suggestion that if the Redskins cannot get at least a 2nd round pick they should keep a player that they clearly have no intention of giving a chance to win the starting job?[/QUOTE]


Let me ask you this, if Brunell goes down the last pre-season game, are you ready with a team who will be a serious super bowl contender, to have Campbell have to come in and lead this team to the big game?

The only thing Gibbs keeps saying about Campbell is that he is very accurate, I am sorry but if a QB is not very accurate in practice he has no buisness being a QB in any copasity on any major level in football. QB's have to be football smart and until he actually plays a real game we will have no clue whether he is or isn't, but even if he is it will take him a year to really come into his own, do we want to throw a season away under those circumstances? Especially for what everyone is stating a possible 3rd rd pick?

I have no doubt in my mind that we would be far better off next season under those circumstances that Ramsey can lead this team, and I have to believe that even the Brunell and Campbell supporters are going to have to agree with that under those circumstances, we all knew Campbell was a project when we drafted him, does anyone want to go into next season knowing Campbell is one hit away from being the man? Patrick has much more value to us as a backup, and I am one of the guys who would love to see him find a home somewhere else to get a fair shot, but I just don't htink it's a smart move for our team as a whole to leave ourselves exposed to a Brunell injury, and we all know he aint getting any younger, and Ramseys contract is very reasonable next season.


Back in the day I saw a similar scenerio with Gibbs, it surrounded Stan Humphries, for the life of me I couldn't understand why he wouldn't committ to him, when he was able to come in to play he looked IMO much better than Rypien, he had much more mobility than Rypien, and seemed to be a more instinctive QB, yet it alway's seemed Gibbs had it in for him, when Beathard went to the Chargers he immediatly went after Humphries and Humphries proved to be a very good QB leading a charger team that wasen't that good to a super bowl, I can say this, Rypien didn't have enough talent as a QB to lead that team to a SB, so Ramsey I believe is very capable of getting the job done, but theres no arguing Gibbs really does not like the guy.

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Humphries proved to be a very good QB leading a charger team that wasen't that good to a super bowl, I can say this, Rypien didn't have enough talent as a QB to lead that team to a SB, so Ramsey I believe is very capable of getting the job done, but theres no arguing Gibbs really does not like the guy.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I guess being a Superbowl MVP is no indication that you could lead a talented team to the Superbowl. :yeahright

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Let me ask you this, if Brunell goes down the last pre-season game, are you ready with a team who will be a serious super bowl contender, to have Campbell have to come in and lead this team to the big game?

The only thing Gibbs keeps saying about Campbell is that he is very accurate, I am sorry but if a QB is not very accurate in practice he has no buisness being a QB in any copasity on any major level in football. QB's have to be football smart and until he actually plays a real game we will have no clue whether he is or isn't, but even if he is it will take him a year to really come into his own, do we want to throw a season away under those circumstances? Especially for what everyone is stating a possible 3rd rd pick?

I have no doubt in my mind that we would be far better off next season under those circumstances that Ramsey can lead this team, and I have to believe that even the Brunell and Campbell supporters are going to have to agree with that under those circumstances, we all knew Campbell was a project when we drafted him, does anyone want to go into next season knowing Campbell is one hit away from being the man? Patrick has much more value to us as a backup, and I am one of the guys who would love to see him find a home somewhere else to get a fair shot, but I just don't htink it's a smart move for our team as a whole to leave ourselves exposed to a Brunell injury, and we all know he aint getting any younger, and Ramseys contract is very reasonable next season.


Back in the day I saw a similar scenerio with Gibbs, it surrounded Stan Humphries, for the life of me I couldn't understand why he wouldn't committ to him, when he was able to come in to play he looked IMO much better than Rypien, he had much more mobility than Rypien, and seemed to be a more instinctive QB, yet it alway's seemed Gibbs had it in for him, when Beathard went to the Chargers he immediatly went after Humphries and Humphries proved to be a very good QB leading a charger team that wasen't that good to a super bowl, I can say this, Rypien didn't have enough talent as a QB to lead that team to a SB, so Ramsey I believe is very capable of getting the job done, but theres no arguing Gibbs really does not like the guy.[/QUOTE]

You didn't answer the question, what's the alternative? From what you said, if the best offer we get in the offseason is a 3rd round pick we should hold on to a player that the coaching staff has no plans for and wants to be a starter somewhere and who is in the last year of his contract and will leave the following offseason for no compensation. Help me see the logic in that.

Am I completly comfortable with Campbell being one play away from being the starter, no. But I don't believe Ramsey is capable of leading the team to the Super Bowl in the same scenario either. I think the Redskins will bring in Todd Collins in the offseason (free agent, been with Saunders in KC for years) to be the #3 QB but in the case of an early season-ending injury to Brunell would be able to step in and run the offense if Campbell falls on his face.

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain]You didn't answer the question, what's the alternative? From what you said, if the best offer we get in the offseason is a 3rd round pick we should hold on to a player that the coaching staff has no plans for and wants to be a starter somewhere and who is in the last year of his contract and will leave the following offseason for no compensation. Help me see the logic in that.

Am I completly comfortable with Campbell being one play away from being the starter, no. But I don't believe Ramsey is capable of leading the team to the Super Bowl in the same scenario either. I think the Redskins will bring in Todd Collins in the offseason (free agent, been with Saunders in KC for years) to be the #3 QB but in the case of an early season-ending injury to Brunell would be able to step in and run the offense if Campbell falls on his face.[/QUOTE]


So your solution is todd collins? So you are admitting you have no faith in Campbell?

So we would be 1 play away from a player who has never gotten himself off the bench in Collins? So basically what you are saying is Ramsey can't do the job, but a journeyman backup can? Now I ask you what do you base that on???????????

So what if he leaves without compensation, who would want a useless QB anyway? According to you, he's not better than Todd Collins, explain to me why the Chiefs are willing to let a gem like that walk away without compensation?

It's not like we have been a drafting machine after the 1st rd anyway.

So basically I am to surmise that you believe that BIG TIME TODD COLLINS, and JASON I HAVE NEVER PLAYED A DOWN IN THE NFL CAMPBELL are better option's as the #2 than Ramsey?

No plans for Ramsey? Hasen't Gibbs said time and again how important Ramsey is to the Skins? He has stated many times that the second most important player on any team is the backup QB. Yea Todd Collins as our starter, WONDERFUL!

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin]Yeah, I guess being a Superbowl MVP is no indication that you could lead a talented team to the Superbowl. :yeahright[/QUOTE]


Your point being???????????? :confused:

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

isnt this about ramsey and rivers?

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=dmek25]isnt this about ramsey and rivers?[/QUOTE]

It was, but Rivers was consumed by question 3. Campbell, Humphreys, and Rypien have all tried to come off the bench to compete.

Ramsey remains.....

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=jdlea]I don't really agree with the assertion that the school you come from decides how good you're going to be in the NFL. Chad Pennington, prior to injury, had a very good stretch as a starter and he came from Marshall, a mid-major school at best. So did Leftwich and he's becoming a very good starter also. I think that Rivers would be lucky to reach Leftwich's level. Favre went to Southern Miss, they're not exactly a top school, either. Culpepper played at Central Florida. There's plenty of examples of guys who came from mid majors and went on to have success in the NFL.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you that the school you come from does not decide how good you will be in the NFL.
However that is as far as I agree with you, because the other small school players you mentioned Pennington, Big Ben, Leftwich, Culpepper, etc. all stood out in college and were the major reason their programs had winning records. Ramsey did not. His college career was just above average, he did not stand out and his college team was .500 one year and a loser his senior year.
His draft stock went up because of his workouts and play at the senior bowl. Big difference in college careers and in their pro careers.

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

LOL so now Rypien wasn't good enough to lead a team to the Super Bowl?

Umm, didn't he do just that?

Humphries wasn't anything more special than Rypien, check out their career stats:

[url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/HumpSt00.htm"] Humphries[/url]: 89 TD's vs. 84 INT's, 17,191 yards, 56.9 completion %, 3-3 postseason record including a Super Bowl loss.

Now let's look at Ryp.

[url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/RypiMa00.htm"] Rypien[/url]: 115 TD's vs. 88 INT's, 18,473 yards, 56.1 completion %, 5-3 postseason record including a Super Bowl win.

Perhaps the reason Gibbs let Humphries go was the fact he had 4 TD's vs. 11 INT's in the 9 games he played in for the Skins.

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=offiss]So your solution is todd collins? So you are admitting you have no faith in Campbell?

So we would be 1 play away from a player who has never gotten himself off the bench in Collins? So basically what you are saying is Ramsey can't do the job, but a journeyman backup can? Now I ask you what do you base that on???????????

So what if he leaves without compensation, who would want a useless QB anyway? According to you, he's not better than Todd Collins, explain to me why the Chiefs are willing to let a gem like that walk away without compensation?

It's not like we have been a drafting machine after the 1st rd anyway.

So basically I am to surmise that you believe that BIG TIME TODD COLLINS, and JASON I HAVE NEVER PLAYED A DOWN IN THE NFL CAMPBELL are better option's as the #2 than Ramsey?

No plans for Ramsey? Hasen't Gibbs said time and again how important Ramsey is to the Skins? He has stated many times that the second most important player on any team is the backup QB. Yea Todd Collins as our starter, WONDERFUL![/QUOTE]
Wow, apparently reading isn't fundamental.. I said Collins would be able to step in IF CAMPBELL FALLS ON HIS FACE IN THE EVENT THAT BRUNELL WOULD BE LOST TO INJURY.. 2nd grade version, Brunell is the starter, Campbell the backup, Collins the #3.. :frusty:

That has nothing to do with lack of faith in Campbell.. Honestly, I don't think either Campbell, Ramsey or Collins can lead the team to a Super Bowl next season.. I never compared Ramsey to Collins or Campbell or even Brunell for that matter. I said earlier in the offseason that I didn't think Ramsey is going to be an effective starter in the NFL and this staff clearly doesn't trust or want him.. Assuming we sign Collins, if he never gets in a game that would be ideal since he'd be the #3 qb..

I firmly beleive that Ramsey will be somewhere else by draft day... I hope you are 100% right and we get at least a 2nd round pick for him.. I'm done talking about it until then..

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=Defensewins]I agree with you that the school you come from does not decide how good you will be in the NFL.
However that is as far as I agree with you, because the other small school players you mentioned Pennington, Big Ben, Leftwich, Culpepper, etc. all stood out in college and were the major reason their programs had winning records. Ramsey did not. His college career was just above average, he did not stand out and his college team was .500 one year and a loser his senior year.
His draft stock went up because of his workouts and play at the senior bowl. Big difference in college careers and in their pro careers.[/QUOTE]

I wasn't really making any point about Ramsey in that post. I was only saying that the school you come from doesn't have any bearing on the way you'll play in the NFL. However, I think that Ramsey can be successful in this league. He wasn't bad as a starter, he just wasn't consistent. I think that would have come with time on the field, but we may never know.

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]LOL so now Rypien wasn't good enough to lead a team to the Super Bowl?

Umm, didn't he do just that?

Humphries wasn't anything more special than Rypien, check out their career stats:

[url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/HumpSt00.htm"] Humphries[/url]: 89 TD's vs. 84 INT's, 17,191 yards, 56.9 completion %, 3-3 postseason record including a Super Bowl loss.

Now let's look at Ryp.

[url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/RypiMa00.htm"] Rypien[/url]: 115 TD's vs. 88 INT's, 18,473 yards, 56.1 completion %, 5-3 postseason record including a Super Bowl win.

Perhaps the reason Gibbs let Humphries go was the fact he had 4 TD's vs. 11 INT's in the 9 games he played in for the Skins.[/QUOTE]


He was perpared to let Rypien go as well, only an offensive line that was impossible to penetrate saved Rypien our super bowl year, it's awfully nice to drop back and stand around until someone comes open without the worry that a defender will be remotly near you, because that was the case for Rypien, we were on pace to set the all time NFL record for least amount of sacks that season until we hit the Eagle game late in the year. He never did anything remotly significant before or after that SB season.

Perhaps gibbs could have reavaluated Humphries and had given him a little more of a chance to develope as the Chargers did, yes we won a super bowl with Rypien, but we were in the running to win another the following season and Rypien was pretty much done. As for Humphries? He continued to outshine Rypien in San Diego with a less talented team than we had, and was able to get them to the SB. It would have been interesting to see how he panned out behind that line from the 91' team.


Basically Rypien was a below average QB who was put into one of the most ideal circumstances that a QB could ever ask for, to his credit he took advantage of it for 1 season, but that was it, there were plenty of QB's in the league at the time who could have won a SB for us that year. Rypien was fortunate to be in the right place at the right time.

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain]Wow, apparently reading isn't fundamental.. I said Collins would be able to step in IF CAMPBELL FALLS ON HIS FACE IN THE EVENT THAT BRUNELL WOULD BE LOST TO INJURY.. 2nd grade version, Brunell is the starter, Campbell the backup, Collins the #3.. :frusty:

That has nothing to do with lack of faith in Campbell.. Honestly, I don't think either Campbell, Ramsey or Collins can lead the team to a Super Bowl next season.. I never compared Ramsey to Collins or Campbell or even Brunell for that matter. I said earlier in the offseason that I didn't think Ramsey is going to be an effective starter in the NFL and this staff clearly doesn't trust or want him.. Assuming we sign Collins, if he never gets in a game that would be ideal since he'd be the #3 qb..

I firmly beleive that Ramsey will be somewhere else by draft day... I hope you are 100% right and we get at least a 2nd round pick for him.. I'm done talking about it until then..[/QUOTE]


Well here let me simplify things for you, why are you bringing a player in who you do not believe can lead this team to a SB if Brunell goes down? What is the sense? And so you obviously don't feel Campbell can get the job done, so where is your backup plan? I obviously believe that Ramsey can take us to a super bowl, so I have my backup plan set. You have admitted you don't believe in yours. So you have no lack of faith in Campbell? Yet you don't believe he is capable of leading us to a super bowl next season? Talk about a walking contradiction! Who then will lead us if Brunell goes down? he's obviously not on our roster, or in KC, so who?

Further more, yes you can say the staff doesn't want him, but if that were the case why has Gibbs kept him around for 2 years? It's no secret that he wanted out more than once, and yet Gibbs refused to trade him, or release him, Gibbs constantly states that he wants players who want to be redskins, well I do believe a request to be traded pretty much say's I don't want to be a redskin, and yet he's still here, I wonder why? Miami offered up a #2 pick for him and yet we didn't take it, you mean to tell me we couldn't have signed a Todd Collins clone off the waiver wire to backup Brunell the last 2 seasons? Thats a lowsey thing to do to Ramsey, stick him on the bench for 2 years while you draft a QB to take his place, all the while he could have traded him or released him knowing he wanted nothing to do with him, and signed a backup of Todd Collins magnitude until campbell is ready, whenever THAT may occur.

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=offiss]He was perpared to let Rypien go as well, only an offensive line that was impossible to penetrate saved Rypien our super bowl year, it's awfully nice to drop back and stand around until someone comes open without the worry that a defender will be remotly near you, because that was the case for Rypien, we were on pace to set the all time NFL record for least amount of sacks that season until we hit the Eagle game late in the year. He never did anything remotly significant before or after that SB season.

Perhaps gibbs could have reavaluated Humphries and had given him a little more of a chance to develope as the Chargers did, yes we won a super bowl with Rypien, but we were in the running to win another the following season and Rypien was pretty much done. As for Humphries? He continued to outshine Rypien in San Diego with a less talented team than we had, and was able to get them to the SB. It would have been interesting to see how he panned out behind that line from the 91' team.


Basically Rypien was a below average QB who was put into one of the most ideal circumstances that a QB could ever ask for, to his credit he took advantage of it for 1 season, but that was it, there were plenty of QB's in the league at the time who could have won a SB for us that year. Rypien was fortunate to be in the right place at the right time.[/QUOTE]

Even if you take away Rypien's best season in '91, In 1989 Rypien threw for 3768 yards with 22 TD's and 13 INT's, which is still far better than Humphries best year.

I don't think you're giving enough credit to Ryp, he was a pretty solid starter for a 4 year stretch.

Humpries was solid as well, but I don't see anything that made him head and shoulders above Rypien as you're trying to say.

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Well here let me simplify things for you, why are you bringing a player in who you do not believe can lead this team to a SB if Brunell goes down? What is the sense? And so you obviously don't feel Campbell can get the job done, so where is your backup plan? I obviously believe that Ramsey can take us to a super bowl, so I have my backup plan set. You have admitted you don't believe in yours. So you have no lack of faith in Campbell? Yet you don't believe he is capable of leading us to a super bowl next season? Talk about a walking contradiction! Who then will lead us if Brunell goes down? he's obviously not on our roster, or in KC, so who?

Further more, yes you can say the staff doesn't want him, but if that were the case why has Gibbs kept him around for 2 years? It's no secret that he wanted out more than once, and yet Gibbs refused to trade him, or release him, Gibbs constantly states that he wants players who want to be redskins, well I do believe a request to be traded pretty much say's I don't want to be a redskin, and yet he's still here, I wonder why? Miami offered up a #2 pick for him and yet we didn't take it, you mean to tell me we couldn't have signed a Todd Collins clone off the waiver wire to backup Brunell the last 2 seasons? Thats a lowsey thing to do to Ramsey, stick him on the bench for 2 years while you draft a QB to take his place, all the while he could have traded him or released him knowing he wanted nothing to do with him, and signed a backup of Todd Collins magnitude until campbell is ready, whenever THAT may occur.[/QUOTE]
Ok, I'll answer question by question to try to clarify for you.. The only reason I suggested Collins is because he is familiar with the system, not to compete for the starting job and likely not even to play, and let me make this clear again, [b][i][u]UNLESS BRUNELL IS INJURED AND CAMPBELL FALLS ON HIS FACE[/B][/I][/U]. Every team needs 3 QB. The whole 'magnitude of Todd Collins' & 'Todd Collins clone' is way off base.

I think, if pressed into action, Campbell can be effective and successful, but no I don't think he can lead the team to the Super Bowl next year. That being said, I don't think any qb can be expected to lead his team to glory after never playing a down in the NFL and being thrust into the position. Tom Brady & Kurt Warner did it, but it wasn't [b][i][u]expected[/b][/u][/i] of them. If it happens, huge bonus for the Redskins, but I don't think many teams have a backup that will fit that bill.

Regarding the coaching decisions on Ramsey, I assume in the 1st offseason Gibbs and Co. wanted veteran leadership at the QB position and depth, therefore they kept both QB. Going into last offseason, based on the end of the '04 season they thought Ramsey was their starter. Obviously between then and the draft they felt that Campbell was a viable QB of the future and made the moves to go get him. When Ramsey was demoted and requested out, the front office made the decision to not trade your backup QB during the season with a 34 yr old starter and a rookie backup, a wise decision IMO.

BTW, [url]http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=15239[/url]

Re: Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Even if you take away Rypien's best season in '91, In 1989 Rypien threw for 3768 yards with 22 TD's and 13 INT's, which is still far better than Humphries best year.

I don't think you're giving enough credit to Ryp, he was a pretty solid starter for a 4 year stretch.

Humpries was solid as well, but I don't see anything that made him head and shoulders above Rypien as you're trying to say.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm, sounds familiar - two starting quality QBs, each with some solid strengths and weaknesses, neither one head and shoulders better than the other, and Gibbs picking the one he feels will be the best for the job. Can you remind me how that worked out for the Redskins?