Commanders Post at The Warpath - CBA talks have broken down again

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Re: CBA talks have broken down again

let's speed this up and avoid another 30 posts that we've already had ;)

[list][*][b]30% rule[/b] - simple definition, a player's salary cannot increase more than 30% from one year to the next, starting in 2006.[/list]
[quote]Originally Posted by [b]RedskinPete[/b]
[i]I see something being said about [potential cuts] but not if a deal is not made! So lets say you are right and the projected cuts are made and some money is redone in player contracts that leaves us a long way from 0 cap short fall. Who do you think would be let go along with the projected cuts? Isn't it right to say that this all needs to be done by march 3rd?[/quote][/i]

free agency could be pushed back... you can look at the cap sheets to see some examples of savings... but guys like brunell would cost 300k to cut, jacobs (who not only sucks, but is also a huge pansy) only saves 117k to cut (and rookie vet min is 230k, meaning that keeping him is the cheapest way to fill that roster spot).

bowen, harris, noble, ramsey, raymer, hall, tupa (who may still have years left, but is expensive and lost last season to IR), among others... beyond that, wynn would save 396k, thrash would save 875k.

guys that you'd like to keep that could save money (and this is why its a big problem, look how little you save with each starter you cut):
jansen: 800k
samuels: 300k
M washington: 500k
P daniels: 800k
patten: 650k
rabach: 1.15mill
prioleau: 550k
salave'a: 500k
betts: 550k
lemar marshall: 400k
sellers: 500k
dockery: 460k
cooley: 220k

and that's about it... there's some nobodies that can be ditched for much younger nobodies to save 100-200k per roster spot, but making up the difference with the tiny amount of savings made by cutting starters is going to be harsh... you have to cut down even more to have space to sign rookies from the draft, and we're going to need them. Maybe we'll have to have a fire sale for draft picks :/ cause its kinda hard to make 8million pop out of that list up there.

[quote]Originally Posted by [b]Dirtbag359[/b]
[i]So let me get this straight. The reason we want a CBA is because without one we can't restructure deals 3-7 years in the future since their will be no salary cap. And instead of restructuring guys like Jansen, Thomas, Arrington, and Washington we'll have to cut guys like Jansen and Washington to get under the cap. Then we're going to have to carry about 15 rookies on our roster like the Ravens did 2 years removed from the their Super Bowl win.

Also one more question:
Is the reason deals can't be restructured is because its not legal or it would be stupid for the players to do it?[/quote][/i]

it's legal to restructure contracts, but without a new cba the bonuses can't be pro-rated like normal and you have to obey the 30% rule (which means converting 2 years from base salary to bonus instead of just one... and with limited pro-ration you end up paying a lot of the money you were trying to move down the road immediately anyways).

the skins only have 3 people with base salaries in the 3.5-4mill range right now (jansen, brunell, and thomas), so there's just not much money to move. (the next highest base salary is 1.5mill which is nearly nothing above vet min).

[quote]Originally Posted by [b]Redskins8588[/b]
[i]Someone help me on understanding this one, but if the salary cap is $95 million for 2006, than the Redskins are only over by about $11 million? And if thats the case then we are not really in that bad of shape, like say the jets or oakland, right???[/quote][/i]

116 - 95 = 21$ mill over... the raiders are over by more, but they're MUCH better off, becaue they can release 2 players and clear 18.5$mill in space, even without a new cba... the skins can't do that cause ALL the contracts here inflate at the same time, so there's no big money guys to drop outside of maybe lavar.

[quote]Originally Posted by [b]Redskins8588[/b]
[i]ok, so what would you say would be our worse case plan if there is no cba agreement, like who do you see us getting rid of, or what other options do we have?[/quote][/i]

listed this before, but basically, if lavar can be ditched and his bonus withheld, that's the biggest move (5mill i believe).

Lavar - $5mill
Bowen - $2mill
Harris - $2mill
Noble - $1.7mill
Ramsey - $1.6mill
Hall - $1.18mill
Raymer - $985k
Thrash - $875k
Tupa - $601k
Prioleau - $550k

[b]that's about $16mill in somewhat easy cuts...[/b]

Frost (P), Brown (WR), Farris (WR), Riley (DE) - 460k each, but would have to be replaced with younger FAs at 235k-310k a pop... at 230k savings each - $920k

5 no names at 385k - 235 = 150k savings each - $750k

[b] up to about 17.7mill, as you can see, its getting harder[/b]

only 3 guys on the roster have over 1.5mill in base salary (jansen, thomas, brunell), if you can ask them to each give back (actual give money back, yikes) 500k this year (AND enough money next year to comply with the 30% rule)
jansen - $500k (gives back 500k in 2006 and 0k in 2007)
brunell - $500k (500k in 06 and 650k in 07)
thomas - $500k (500k in 06 and 100k in 07)

[b]up to 19.2mill and we've already had to make huge logic stretches... now it gets really harsh[/b]

releasing 16 1st/2nd years and bringing in absolutely NO competition for training camp (10@235k, 6@310k) - $2.35mill + $1.86mill = $4.21mill

[b]23.4mill, just enough to sign rookies and pray no one sucks or gets hurt in training camp[/b]

and that's a real stretch, in reality, guys like betts, sellers, and maybe starters like dockery or daniels or patten or wynn all get released too.

[url="http://www.thewarpath.net/WarpathRedskinsCap.htm"]Salary cap numbers[/url]
hopefully that answers some questions ;)

Re: CBA talks have broken down again

edit: if you look above you might notice a (tiny) error: The big cuts don't include roster replacement cost, so this plan leaves 10 free spots (only 43 players left), and including the ramsey trade and no comp picks) only 7 incoming draftees. 2 more undrafteds (koch and quillen) at 235k would still keep them under cap though.

new edit: lavar doesn't save you money with a cba, silly me. that leaves the team with 5million left to cut. I'll try again.

Re: CBA talks have broken down again

[QUOTE=That Guy]edit: if you look above you might notice a (tiny) error: The big cuts don't include roster replacement cost, so this plan leaves 10 free spots (only 43 players left), and including the ramsey trade and no comp picks) only 7 incoming draftees. 2 more undrafteds (koch and quillen) at 235k would still keep them under cap though.[/QUOTE]

You can't save any money by cutting Lavar Arrington if no CBA extension is reached.

Re: CBA talks have broken down again

That Guy...

I think you posted that Brunell could be cut after June 1 to save 4.5 mil on the cap. If that's correct, and assuming there might be other vets in that category, doesn't that suggest that the shaping of our roster might be a two-phase operation?

Re: CBA talks have broken down again

[QUOTE=Huddle]That Guy...

I think you posted that Brunell could be cut after June 1 to save 4.5 mil on the cap. If that's correct, and assuming there might be other vets in that category, doesn't that suggest that the shaping of our roster might be a two-phase operation?[/QUOTE]

Without a CBA extension, 2006 becomes the last capped year. Therefore, cutting a player in 2006 accelerates all of the signing bonus to 2006, regardless of when you cut the player. Even if we cut Brunell, Arrington, or anyone else after June 1, it will not change the cap hit at all.

If you look [url="http://www.thewarpath.net/WarpathRedskinsCap.htm"]here[/url], and look at the release fee tab, the situation becomes simple. The 2006 number represents what the player would cost if he stayed on our team. The R Fee number represents what the player would cost if we cut him, no matter when the cut occurs.

Re: CBA talks have broken down again

If there is no extension by the deadline. How likely would it be that they negotiated a new one before the 2007 season?

Re: CBA talks have broken down again

[QUOTE=Monksdown]If there is no extension by the deadline. How likely would it be that they negotiated a new one before the 2007 season?[/QUOTE]

Upshaw said that the PA would never go for a cap if it droped in 06 dead line of march 3rd! As for a new CBA there will be a new one at some point. Like in wars a peace treaty is signed to end the war! In this war PA vs Owners both will lose!

Re: CBA talks have broken down again

One last hope?

[url]http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5371610[/url]

Re: CBA talks have broken down again

Maske just posted (Wed. at 1:40 p.m.) a new article on the WP about this mess. It's a good read and summarizes the consequences of the lack of a new CBA.

[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/linkset/2005/04/22/LI2005042201154.html[/url]

Re: CBA talks have broken down again

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Hey Canuck,

If you see this, could you answer the following question? The cap sheets that we have up shows the veterans' cap figures. I understand that veterans' salaries are higher than their cap figures since teams get cap "rebates" if they sign older veterans. Do your cap figures reflect these "rebates?"[/QUOTE]

Sorry just saw this now.

Ya it's reflected in my sheets. Take Ethan Albright for example. His salary is listed at $770 on the Salaries page. To account for the veteran rebate I added a negative bonus of $310K for him on the OtherBonuses page. So his cap hit on the CapSummary page is $770K - $310K + $25K signing bonus for a total cap hit of $485K.

Re: CBA talks have broken down again

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]One last hope?

[url]http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5371610[/url][/QUOTE]

Why the owners are waiting until 8 hours before the deadline to meet is beyond me.

I'm ready to break out my white Nikes and the Kool-aid.

Re: CBA talks have broken down again

[QUOTE=CrazyCanuck]Sorry just saw this now.

Ya it's reflected in my sheets. Take Ethan Albright for example. His salary is listed at $770 on the Salaries page. To account for the veteran rebate I added a negative bonus of $310K for him on the OtherBonuses page. So his cap hit on the CapSummary page is $770K - $310K + $25K signing bonus for a total cap hit of $485K.[/QUOTE]

Damn Canuck, you are one smart dude. It must have taken you a long ass time to finish those sheets. On behalf of everyone, thanks. :towel:

Re: CBA talks have broken down again

its been really useful, took me a while to figure out how truely screwed we'd be without a new cba though.

Re: CBA talks have broken down again

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Why the owners are waiting until 8 hours before the deadline to meet is beyond me.

I'm ready to break out my white Nikes and the Kool-aid.[/QUOTE]

Shit, we can't even afford Nikes. I have to wear my L.A. Gear!

Re: CBA talks have broken down again

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]Shit, we can't even afford Nikes. I have to wear my L.A. Gear![/QUOTE]

Them's sweet. I'm rockin' the LA Gear with the black-white laces.

Re: CBA talks have broken down again

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Why the owners are waiting until 8 hours before the deadline to meet is beyond me.

I'm ready to break out my white Nikes and the Kool-aid.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v635/aloha312/9760.gif[/IMG]

Re: CBA talks have broken down again

[QUOTE=Master4Caster]Posturing on both sides. I think this gets done at the last moment.

If it doesn't the whole league is impacted. The Redskins let a lot of quality people go, but so do a lot of other teams. What I don't like is disruption to team continuity. It takes two or three seasons for a team to jell.[/QUOTE]

I agree, think this will get done at the very last minute. There's far too much to loose on both sides by it not getting done. Goes far beyond a no-capped year and the cutting of players. Desertification of the Union and a possible lockout in 08 will have a far more devestating effect longterm for both the league and the fans. Keep the faith guys, it will get done.

Re: CBA talks have broken down again

[QUOTE=Longtimefan]I agree, think this will get done at the very last minute. There's far too much to loose on both sides by it not getting done. Goes far beyond a no-capped year and the cutting of players. Desertification of the Union and a possible lockout in 08 will have a far more devestating effect longterm for both the league and the fans. Keep the faith guys, it will get done.[/QUOTE]

I don't think it will after hearimg what 49ers and Raiders FO types are saying! The PA wants the money and the owners are not giving in! :spank: