Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

I doubt if we'll see Cambell at all in 06'...he's third string and Collins would play before he does. I think that Gibbs didn't intend to play Cambell when he drafted him; he was more of insurance for Ramsey who's days were numbered. Brunell is the guy as long as Gibbs is here...I pridict that Gibbs and Brunell will both leave around the same time.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Skins_4_Lyfe]I doubt if we'll see Cambell at all in 06'...he's third string and Collins would play before he does. I think that Gibbs didn't intend to play Cambell when he drafted him; he was more of insurance for Ramsey who's days were numbered. Brunell is the guy as long as Gibbs is here...I pridict that Gibbs and Brunell will both leave around the same time.[/quote]

Well, I see what you are saying, but remember that Gibbs gave up a lot to get Campbell, so he must at least be considering turning over the reins to him sometime before he goes. But for right now, it's Brunell and that's all that matters.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

This thread has turned into more of a controversy about Brunell than I had intended when I wrote Post One. Apparently, a significant number of you don't feel that the Skins need to get Campbell ready for the starting role this next season. I hope the coaches aren't thinking that way.

Brunell's legs are as important in his game as his arm. In his two years with the Redskins, most of his games were played with nagging injuries: hamstring pull, calf injury, knee strain. The odds against his playing the 2006 season unhampered by injury are high. This problem, super-imposed over the natural decline of his 36 year-old body ought to tell us that he can't be counted on to perform at a peak level next season.

It seems to me that the Skins can kill two birds with one stone. By working Campbell into action gradually, Brunell can be kept fresh and ready to play with rest in between starts against the toughest defenses on our schedule.

The alternatives are to wait for Brunell to go down and start Campbell raw or start Collins.

Unless the glowing reports about Campbell coming from Redskin Park are bull, there's no good reason not to get him ready this year.

He needs to play to get ready. Two years of holding a clipboard makes no sense if he's truly our franchise QB.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]This thread has turned into more of a controversy about Brunell than I had intended when I wrote Post One. Apparently, a significant number of you don't feel that the Skins need to get Campbell ready for the starting role this season. I hope the coaches aren't thinking that way.

Brunell's legs are as important in his game as his arm. In his two years with the Redskins, most of his games were played with nagging injuries: hamstring pull, calf injury, knee strain. The odds against his playing the 2006 season unhampered by injury are high. This problem, super-imposed over the natural decline of his 36 year-old body ought to tell us that he can't be counted on to perform at a peak level next season.

It seems to me that the Skins can kill two birds with one stone. By working Campbell into action gradually, Brunell can be kept fresh and ready to play with rest in between starts against the toughest defenses on our schedule.

The alternatives are to wait for Brunell to go down and start Campbell raw or start Collins.

Unless the glowing reports about Campbell coming from Redskin Park are bull, there's no good reason not to get him ready this year.

He needs to play to get ready. Two years of holding a clipboard makes no sense if he's truly our franchise QB.[/quote]

How do you suggest they do this? By having a QB platoon?

This isn't college, as long as Brunell is playing and playing well, he will be the unquestioned starter. Campbell is going to have to get ready as he can by learning on the bench and soaking up as much as he can with mental reps. I just don't see him playing much this year especially if Brunell is playing well and the team is in the playoff hunt.

Two years of holding a clipboard makes sense if you have a capable veteran ahead of him and the team is geared up for a Super Bowl run.

Coming out of college Campbell was considered a bit of a project who could benefit by sitting for a year or two. I just don't understand why some people feel the need to rush him along, like if he's not playing this year he's already a bust.

Let's also remember that Gibbs is an old school coach who isn't afraid to let his QBs sit and learn.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Mattyk72]How do you suggest they do this? By having a QB platoon?

This isn't college, as long as Brunell is playing and playing well, he will be the unquestioned starter. Campbell is going to have to get ready as he can by learning on the bench and soaking up as much as he can with mental reps. I just don't see him playing much this year especially if Brunell is playing well and the team is in the playoff hunt.

Two years of holding a clipboard makes sense if you have a capable veteran ahead of him and the team is geared up for a Super Bowl run.

Coming out of college Campbell was considered a bit of a project who could benefit by sitting for a year or two. I just don't understand why some people feel the need to rush him along, like if he's not playing this year he's already a bust.

Let's also remember that Gibbs is an old school coach who isn't afraid to let his QBs sit and learn.[/quote]

I agree on all counts. A QB rotation isn't going to work in the NFL (just ask Spurrier......how'd we do when almost every week we had a different starter?).

I also don't see what the big rush is. Are the reports out of Redskin Park great for Campbell? Of course they are. What are they going to do? Say "wow, this guy sucks. I can't believe we wasted a first round pick on him. What a moron."? Of course not. But all of the scouting reports on him before we drafted him called into question his ability to learn and master an NFL offense. There were serious concerns about his ability to retain the amount of information that is encompassed within an NFL offense (since his college coach had to run a more simplified version of their offense for him at Auburn).

For someone who [I]may be[/I] having a tough time taking it all in and mastering the offense, two years of clipboard service is exactly what would do him the most good. He's got the physical tools, we all agree with that. But if you put him in there before he's mentally prepared with 235 lb linebackers and 300 lb linemen trying to kill him, you're putting him in a hole he's not likely to be able to climb out of.

Brunell got us into the playoffs last year. I agree with some comments that we got there and beat the Bucs in spite of Brunell, not because of Brunell. But I also agree that he didn't have the tools to continue to shine the way he did early in the season. With our current WR corp, and praying for a healthy O-line, I see no reason why Brunell can't be our guy this year. Could he get injured? Sure. So could Randy Thomas. So could Santana Moss. So could Shawn Springs. They all have before, but does that mean we try pushing their backups in ahead of them simply because the backup is younger and may have to take over for them if they got injured? I'd say no. You play your starters and you worry about injuries when they happen, and you hope that you've done an adequate job of adding depth to your roster to cover such circumstances.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Mattyk72

[quote]How do you suggest they do this? By having a QB platoon?[/quote]
Why not? The Frye/Dilfer platoon worked out well. When you have to pay the price for inexperience sooner or later, this is a way to minimize the disadvantage.

[quote] This isn't college, as long as Brunell is playing and playing well, he will be the unquestioned starter.[/quote]
If Brunell was 28 with fresh legs, I'd agree.

[quote] Two years of holding a clipboard makes sense if you have a capable veteran ahead of him and the team is geared up for a Super Bowl run.[/quote]
The implied assumptions in your comment are: 1) the capable vet will play at his peak level for an entire season, 2) the young QB will play at a significantly lower level even though his health and athletic ability exceeds the veteran's.

[quote]Coming out of college Campbell was considered a bit of a project who could benefit by sitting for a year or two. I just don't understand why some people feel the need to rush him along, like if he's not playing this year he's already a bust.[/quote]
IMO working your franchise QB into the lineup gradually in year two isn't "rushing" him.

[quote] Let's also remember that Gibbs is an old school coach who isn't afraid to let his QBs sit and learn.[/quote]
I agree with the others who said that if JoeGibbs has the final say on this, it will be Brunell. However, I have a hard time believing that an OC with Al Saunders resume' would take a job where he didn't have the final say on who he plays.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]
Why not? The Frye/Dilfer platoon worked out well. When you have to pay the price for inexperience sooner or later, this is a way to minimize the disadvantage.
[/quote]

Yah, when we had the Matthews, Weurffel (sp?), Ramsey rotation, we were unstoppable.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]Mattyk72
Why not? The Frye/Dilfer platoon worked out well. When you have to pay the price for inexperience sooner or later, this is a way to minimize the disadvantage.[/quote]

LOL how many wins did that spectacular Frye/Dilfer platoon work out to?

QB platoons in the pros don't work, look no further than Spurrier's handling of our QB situation in 2003. When was the last time you saw a QB platoon get a team to the Super Bowl?

Playing musical chairs with your QB in the pros usually means a couple of things,

#1 You don't have a true #1 guy
#2 Your team probably stinks
#3 You're battling injuries

We're not the 2005 Browns. We have a team that has serious Super Bowl potential, and you want to take a step back at the QB position now?

When Brunell was brought in it was assumed he would be here for 3 years. Based on the way his contract was structured and considering his age. The 3 year plan for Brunell seems to be working out perfectly as the team has been built up around him to the point now where we seem primed to take a serious shot at winning it all.

Campbell's time will come in 2007 as Brunell will likely be gone after this year. But for right now, you have to take your best shot while the window of opportunity is still open.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=PSUSkinsFan21]Yah, when we had the Matthews, Weurffel (sp?), Ramsey rotation, we were unstoppable.[/quote]

Irrelevant.

We are here discussing a completely different, and less-than-ideal, situation.

Did you mis-read my remarks as a claim that platooning Brunell and Campbell would make us unstoppable...or is this a strawman argument you've created?

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Of course this could all fly out the window if Campbell plays his ass off in the preseason and flat out beats out Brunell, but I think that's highly unlikely.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Has anyone heard whether Brunell is THE starter or if there will be a competition?

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Mattyk72

[quote]LOL how many wins did that spectacular Frye/Dilfer platoon work out to?

QB platoons in the pros don't work, look no further than Spurrier's handling of our QB situation in 2003. When was the last time you saw a QB platoon get a team to the Super Bowl?[/quote]

See my comments to PSU who made the same points.

[quote] Playing musical chairs with your QB in the pros usually means a couple of things,

#1 You don't have a true #1 guy
#2 Your team probably stinks
#3 You're battling injuries[/quote]
True, but none of those factors apply to this specific situation.

[quote] We're not the 2005 Browns. We have a team that has serious Super Bowl potential, and you want to take a step back at the QB position now?[/quote]

It's only a step back if one assumes that Brunell will stay healthy and perform at peak level for the entire season. Based on probability, that isn't a realistic assumption.

[quote] When Brunell was brought in it was assumed he would be here for 3 years. Based on the way his contract was structured and considering his age. The 3 year plan for Brunell seems to be working out perfectly as the team has been built up around him to the point now where we seem primed to take a serious shot at winning it all.[/quote]

If you feel that Brunell's play in the second half of the season was of championship caliber, and that the low production of the passing game was solely due to causes other than Mark's individual performance, I understand your position.

I would disagree but, since it comes down to our perceptions of what happened on the field, it's not something we could debate.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]Irrelevant.

We are here discussing a completely different, and less-than-ideal, situation.

Did you mis-read my remarks as a claim that platooning Brunell and Campbell would make us unstoppable...or is this a strawman argument you've created?[/quote]

First of all, it's not irrelevant just because you say so. You're suggesting a QB platoon/rotation. In support thereof, you've offered the 2005 Browns as "support" for the proposition that a QB platoon can work in the NFL (which is kind of funny, the 2005 Browns? Did you really think that was going to convince anyone that we should do the same thing?). I countered with a perfect example of how QB platoons do not work.......in fact, us Skins fans are particularly familiar with the QB platoon/rotation approach and I doubt too many of us want to go back to those days.

Now it's your turn. Explain to me how the Skins's QB platoon of a few years ago is "irrelevant" to the discussion of whether QB platoons can work in the NFL or not. Do you seriously even know what "irrelevant" means? Seriously, do you?

Furthermore, I'd like for you to explain to me why the Browns QB platoon is relevant, but the Redskins QB platoon is not relevant. Is it just because the Browns were your idea, and the Skins were my idea? Is that what makes my point "irrelevant", and yours gospel? Do you see the HYPOCRACY of your statements here?

I mean I really hate to be the one to break this to you, but your points are no more valid than anyone else's on this site. We are all offering our OPINIONS. You can't prove the QB platoon will work or that it is a good idea for the Skins in the long run. And I can't prove that it's a bad thing (although I can point out that it's never worked in the NFL to any degree of appreciable success). So, what we are doing here is arguing, and offering support for our arguments. You think the Browns are a worthwhile example to support your stance, I think the Skins are a worthwhile example to support my stance. My example is no less relevant than yours just because it stands in opposition to your opinion. Are you starting to see how this whole thing works here?

As for my "unstoppable" comment: it's called sarcasm. You can look that up too when you look up what irrelevant means.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Huddle, when was the last successful QB platoon that resulted in a playoff and or Super Bowl appearance??

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Mattyk72]Huddle, when was the last successful QB platoon that resulted in a playoff and or Super Bowl appearance??[/quote]i can answer that for him,...NEVER

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]I would disagree but, since it comes down to our perceptions of what happened on the field, it's not something we could debate.[/quote]

Since when are perceptions undebateable anyway?

We might as well close up shop here at The Warpath if that's the case.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=gibbsisgod]i can answer that for him,...NEVER[/quote]

That's irrelevant

;)

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

I don't think I've heard or read that Brunell is the official starter. Gibbs seems to be of the mindset that the QB who took the last snap is the starter until further notice. Brunell should be the starter next season until he can no longer fulfill that role. If this were baseball then we could let him rest every other start to help preserve his longevity for the whole season. With football, every game counts. You have to use your best resource until it runs out. Brunell is definitely more experienced and looks like our best resource at QB. If he goes down and Collins shows that he is capable of taking over then I'm sure that will be the way to go. If Campbell whines (which I doubt) then Gibbs will know that he is concerned more about himself rather than the team. And the process starts all over again...

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Mattyk72]That's irrelevant

;)[/quote]

:laughing2

Do you think it's possible that Huddle is actually Drew Rosenhaus? "NEXT QUESTION..."

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=724Skinsfan]I don't think I've heard or read that Brunell is the official starter. Gibbs seems to be of the mindset that the QB who took the last snap is the starter until further notice.[/quote]

That's a pretty safe assumption IMO.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

gibbs knows how to handle the qb situation, he knew that ramsey gave us the best chance to win late in '04, and wasnt afraid to admit that brunell gave us the best chance in '05. he will start the best guy no matter what WE think is 'right'

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

I don't think Dilfer/Frye was a platoon. Dilfer started the first several games with Frye not playing at all. I think maybe the 10th and 11th game Frye got some playing time. Then he started the rest of the season with Dilfer not playing at all.

I wouldn't classify that as a platoon. They weren't alternating games. I would say that's a veteran QB playing until the young'n is ready. Which I suspect is what will happen here. I've seen too little of Campbell to know when that will be.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

PSUSkinsFan21

[QUOTE]First of all, it's not irrelevant just because you say so. [/QUOTE]

Of course not. It's irrelevant because the Spurrier rotation had nothing to do with preparing a rookie QB for the NFL which is what the discussion on the table is about.

[QUOTE] Furthermore, I'd like for you to explain to me why the Browns QB platoon is relevant, but the Redskins QB platoon is not relevant. [/QUOTE]

The Brown's situation is relevant because the platooning was intended to prepare a young QB for the NFL...which is what we're discussing. Charlie Frye performed very well by most accounts.

[QUOTE] I mean I really hate to be the one to break this to you, but your points are no more valid than anyone else's on this site. [/QUOTE]

You're making this personal already?

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Didn't we have a rookie QB in 2002 by the name of Patrick Ramsey??

Besides, Campbell is not a rookie so comparing him to Frye is irrelevant as you would say.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Mattyk72]Didn't we have a rookie QB in 2002 by the name of Patrick Ramsey??
[/quote]

That's irrelevant because his last name didn't start with an "F".

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]PSUSkinsFan21



Of course not. It's irrelevant because the Spurrier rotation had nothing to do with preparing a rookie QB for the NFL which is what the discussion on the table is about.



The Brown's situation is relevant because the platooning was intended to prepare a young QB for the NFL...which is what we're discussing. Charlie Frye performed very well by most accounts.



You're making this personal already?[/quote]

The Browns had the luxury of making their preparation of a young QB a primary goal because the Browns had nothing else to play for. The Skins have a playoff caliber team and a team that is potentially a Super Bowl contender. So the Browns are in a completely different situation than the Skins, so your Browns example is completely [U]irrelevant[/U]. Unless you're suggesting we should strive for a sub-par season with zero chances of making the playoffs.

The Ramsey point has already been made by Matty.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Mattyk72]Huddle, when was the last successful QB platoon that resulted in a playoff and or Super Bowl appearance??[/quote]

It wouldn't be a platooning situation for the entire season. Did you not understand that when I spoke of working Campbell in gradually?

Campbell and the Skins represent a unique situation. Not too many young QBs have been in a position to take over control of a good offense ala Rothlesburger.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]How do you suggest they do this? By having a QB platoon?

This isn't college, as long as Brunell is playing and playing well, he will be the unquestioned starter. Campbell is going to have to get ready as he can by learning on the bench and soaking up as much as he can with mental reps. I just don't see him playing much this year especially if Brunell is playing well and the team is in the playoff hunt.

Two years of holding a clipboard makes sense if you have a capable veteran ahead of him and the team is geared up for a Super Bowl run.

Coming out of college Campbell was considered a bit of a project who could benefit by sitting for a year or two. I just don't understand why some people feel the need to rush him along, like if he's not playing this year he's already a bust.

Let's also remember that Gibbs is an old school coach who isn't afraid to let his QBs sit and learn.[/QUOTE]

I agree that the team is gearing up for a Super Bowl run, however doesn't Jason Campbell figure to be the qb who ultimately gets us there?

There are definitely different ways to develop a quarterback, and I agree that Ramsey's confidence was perhaps shattered playing behind the makeshift offensive protection that Spurrier gave him. But I don't know of anything that you can get better at doing just by watching. I don't know if Campbell should be made the unquestioned #1 right now, but he should definitely play more this season. He's going to have to learn on the job at some point, and there is no debating the argument that we could use some improved play at the quarterback position if we are going to challenge for a Super Bowl.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[QUOTE=Huddle]It wouldn't be a platooning situation for the entire season. Did you not understand that when I spoke of working Campbell in gradually?[/QUOTE]

So how would you bring in Campbell? What do you mean by "gradually"

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

And before you start playing the "I'm being attacked" card again, I will repost my entire paragraph so as not to be taken out of context by the selective quoting you so love to do:

"I mean I really hate to be the one to break this to you, but your points are no more valid than anyone else's on this site. We are all offering our OPINIONS. You can't prove the QB platoon will work or that it is a good idea for the Skins in the long run. And I can't prove that it's a bad thing (although I can point out that it's never worked in the NFL to any degree of appreciable success). So, what we are doing here is arguing, and offering support for our arguments. You think the Browns are a worthwhile example to support your stance, I think the Skins are a worthwhile example to support my stance. My example is no less relevant than yours just because it stands in opposition to your opinion. Are you starting to see how this whole thing works here?"

What's frustrating about your posts is your desire to discount others' arguments as "irrelevant" and give them no credence, while you go forward with the misconception that all of your points are "relevent". Relevancy is not a determination of what most convinces you one way or another. So please stop confusing "irrelevant" posts with posts that you simply are not convinced by.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]It wouldn't be a platooning situation for the entire season. Did you not understand that when I spoke of working Campbell in gradually?

Campbell and the Skins represent a unique situation. Not too many young QBs have been in a position to take over control of a good offense ala Rothlesburger.[/quote]

You did mention working him in gradually, but then I said

[quote]How do you suggest they do this? By having a QB platoon?[/quote]

And you responded with:

[quote]Why not? The Frye/Dilfer platoon worked out well. When you have to pay the price for inexperience sooner or later, this is a way to minimize the disadvantage.[/quote]

So from the sounds of that, you seemed to be in favor of a platoon. Did you not understand what you were saying?

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Mattyk72]That's a pretty safe assumption IMO.[/quote]

all of my assumptions are safe :)

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Mattyk72

[QUOTE]Didn't we have a rookie QB in 2002 by the name of Patrick Ramsey??[/QUOTE]

Yes but the rotation we had was not designed to prepare Ramsey for the NFL. It was not platooning with a plan to make it easier for him to adjust.

[QUOTE] Besides, Campbell is not a rookie so comparing him to Frye is irrelevant as you would say.[/QUOTE]

That Frye didn't spend a year holding a clipboard strengthens my argument. Campbell should do even better.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[QUOTE=PSUSkinsFan21]The Browns had the luxury of making their preparation of a young QB a primary goal because the Browns had nothing else to play for. The Skins have a playoff caliber team and a team that is potentially a Super Bowl contender. So the Browns are in a completely different situation than the Skins, so your Browns example is completely [U]irrelevant[/U]. [B]Unless you're suggesting we should strive for a sub-par season with zero chances of making the playoffs.[/B]

The Ramsey point has already been made by Matty.[/QUOTE]

Playing a rookie qb may mean a sub-par season, but there's too much evidence of young qbs succeeding to hold Campbell back just because "the stakes may be too high." The longer we hold Campbell back, the longer it will take for him to adjust to playing qb. I could see holding him back if the offensive line couldn't protect him, but our line is a team strength and our qb isn't going to have to carry our offense anyway.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]Mattyk72



Yes but the rotation we had was not designed to prepare Ramsey for the NFL. It was not platooning with a plan to make it easier for him to adjust.



That Frye didn't spend a year holding a clipboard strengthens my argument. Campbell should do even better.[/quote]

Irrelevant

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Right, and if he doesn't get a lot of game experience, how will we ever know?

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Mattyk72

[QUOTE] So from the sounds of that, you seemed to be in favor of a platoon. Did you not understand what you were saying?[/QUOTE]

You seem to be saying that platooning can't be done gradually. Is that it?

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=memphisskin]Playing a rookie qb may mean a sub-par season, but there's too much evidence of young qbs succeeding to hold Campbell back just because "the stakes may be too high." The longer we hold Campbell back, the longer it will take for him to adjust to playing qb. I could see holding him back if the offensive line couldn't protect him, but our line is a team strength and our qb isn't going to have to carry our offense anyway.[/quote]

Where is all this evidence of young QBs succeeding?

Roethlisberger is the exception to the rule. For every Roethlisberger there are is a Joey Harrington, David Carr, Patrick Ramsey, etc.

QBs don't typically take their teams to the Super Bowl in year 2.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=memphisskin]Playing a rookie qb may mean a sub-par season, but there's too much evidence of young qbs succeeding to hold Campbell back just because "the stakes may be too high." The longer we hold Campbell back, the longer it will take for him to adjust to playing qb. I could see holding him back if the offensive line couldn't protect him, but our line is a team strength and our qb isn't going to have to carry our offense anyway.[/quote]

good points, but I'm not so sure Campbell is actually ready. I mentioned before that there were concerns with him in college regarding his ability to pick up offenses and the need to simplify the offense for him to grasp it. In that situation, I think he's actually helped by holding the clipboard for another year. Of course I'm speculating........but if he's listed as the #3 QB at the start of the season, I'd have to think that's why. We'll see.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]Mattyk72



You seem to be saying that platooning can't be done gradually. Is that it?[/quote]

I don't want to speak for Matty, but personally I would just like a little more detail as to what you're proposing they do.......because everything you've said so far sounds like the same type of platooning that has been attempted and failed in the past. So what is different about your gradual platooning from what we've seen fail before?