Re: F... gas prices
 

Supply and demand seems to be the concensus why gas price soars through the roof. Heck: if oil company increase the supply, the price should go down. The US has major reserves of oil in Alaska and else where. Even if we can drill and pump for more oil, we don't have enough refineries to produce graded gasoline. Our problem is not the major oil company, it's the enviromentalist wacko. I'm not saying we should not preserve our natural resources and the environment. There should be a balance between preservation and growth of the country. The environmentalist movement has kept the US from building new refineries. Since the 80's, the US has not build any new refineries. Everytime we wanted to build a refinery or drill in Alaska, the environmentalist gets in the way. Our demand for gas continues to grow, while our ability to produce supplies remains the same. We need to find a balance: build more refineries while we continue to research and produce alternative fuel. Don't let one group stagnate the future of our economy.

Re: F... gas prices
 

Hmmm, I would say to drill in Alaska after all options are exhausted. Also think about this, we're still paying it. We DO bitch about it, but we're paying it nonetheless. It just causes people to start thinking outside the box. When gas prices go up, you get more entrepeneurs looking to make bucks on alternative fuel sources, you get more people taking public transportation.

I hate the prices are high, but you know what? I drink a couple less beers a week and suck it up.

Re: F... gas prices
 

Darned it. BDBohnzie posted it his thing about refinery while I was composing my piece. At least, some one shares my point of view.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=itvnetop][URL="http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/30/news/companies/exxon_earns/"]By the Numbers[/URL]

Exxon posted a 30% profit increase during the last quarter from the previous year... the annual 36 billion earning was the largest net profit in US history. Overall, the 12 US oil companies in the S&P saw close to a 50% increase over the fourth quarter.

We're not using twice as much oil as the year before... supply and demand is a part of the equation. but there's a correlation between what we're paying at the pumps and the increasing belt size of these fat cats.[/quote]

Like I said before, these profits are a result of inelasticity on gas prices. Oil companies have to pay for oil in order to make the gasoline. When the price of that oil goes up, they jack the gas prices up to compensate. But when the price of oil goes down, they don't drop gas prices as fast because they know we'll keep paying the high price, because we all NEED gas. It's something many of us can't live without. So Big Oil profits are not driven by the RISE in gas prices, their driven by the FLUCTUATION in gas prices. The bigger the swings up and down, and the more often they happen, the bigger the profits.

That's not price gouging, that's just basic principles of business. You charge the customer what the customer is willing to pay. You're willing to pay for it aren't you? As long as you keep handing over the cash to drive your car, there's nothing to complain about. That's life.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[QUOTE]Hmmm, I would say to drill in Alaska after all options are exhausted. Also think about this, we're still paying it. We DO bitch about it, but we're paying it nonetheless. It just causes people to start thinking outside the box. When gas prices go up, you get more entrepeneurs looking to make bucks on alternative fuel sources, you get more people taking public transportation.

I hate the prices are high, but you know what? I drink a couple less beers a week and suck it up.
[/QUOTE]

We will continue paying it and it will get more expensive, while we wait for alternatives. When last years gas price spiked, we all had to find ways to suck it up at "our expense of a few less beers" Yeah, we complain- but realistically, we have no choice but continue to spend $$$ on gas. I have a long commute; carpooling and mass transit are not viable options. I don't drive a gas guzzling suv, but I'm stuck with a car that demands premium gas. [B]BUILD MORE REFINERIES[/B]

Re: F... gas prices
 

OK. I will. :)

Re: F... gas prices
 

[QUOTE]OK. I will. [/QUOTE]

____________:food-smil _____
Thanks.

Re: F... gas prices
 

HAHA! Anytime.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[QUOTE=Be Tuat]We will continue paying it and it will get more expensive, while we wait for alternatives. When last years gas price spiked, we all had to find ways to suck it up at "our expense of a few less beers" Yeah, we complain- but realistically, we have no choice but continue to spend $$$ on gas. I have a long commute; carpooling and mass transit are not viable options. I don't drive a gas guzzling suv, but I'm stuck with a car that demands premium gas. [B]BUILD MORE REFINERIES[/B][/QUOTE]
What car do you drive?

Re: F... gas prices
 

I was driving my 323i BMW. Currently, I'm driving a Honda Odyssey. My average daily commute is 70 miles round trip. It will go up to 100 miles when we change offices. I bought the minivan for my wife, because we are expecting. Because of the gas hike, my wife drives the beamer; her commute is less than 10 miles round trip. I ended up driving the car that I bought for my wife. I spend roughly $50 on gas per week with the minivan. If I was driving the beamer, easily spend $75/week on gas. :madani: :banghead: !!!

Re: F... gas prices
 

A 323 will run on regular unleaded.

Re: F... gas prices
 

But what about the repair bills. BMW recommends 92+ octane

Re: F... gas prices
 

[QUOTE=Be Tuat]But what about the repair bills. BMW recommends 92+ octane[/QUOTE]
What repair bills??? They recommend a higher octane for performance purposes. If you run a lower octane, the ECU will compensate and retard the timing.

Re: F... gas prices
 

I read something interesting this morning on this. Don't remember where though. Anways, basically the point of the article was that oil companies actually make a small percentage of their profits on actual gas. They make all their money on the oil they pump out of the ground. And oil companies dont set prices. Traders on wall street do. When traders offer $68 for a barrel of oil are the oil companies supposed to say no? The cost of oil now is in response to a concern for future shortages. People pay more now to ensure they have it going foward. So when oil companies make 36 billion based on inflated prices it is not because supply is an issue now but that it may be in the future. When the future comes around all those people who paid $68 a barrell will be thankful they have oil. Long and short is that the real issue isn't much with oil companies but rather with our ability to import oil and refine it. Oil companies didn't just decide to start charging more. I wish it was that easy but it is short sighted and ineffective to blame big oil when they are only a fraction of the issue if at all.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=itvnetop][URL="http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/30/news/companies/exxon_earns/"]By the Numbers[/URL]

Exxon posted a 30% profit increase during the last quarter from the previous year... the annual 36 billion earning was the largest net profit in US history. Overall, the 12 US oil companies in the S&P saw close to a 50% increase over the fourth quarter.

We're not using twice as much oil as the year before... supply and demand is a part of the equation. but there's a correlation between what we're paying at the pumps and the increasing belt size of these fat cats.[/quote]You also need to know what those numbers mean. If they made a 1cent per dollar spent proffit last 1/4 and a 1 1/2 cent profit per dollar spent this 1/4 that would be a 50% increase in profit.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=FRPLG]I read something interesting this morning on this. Don't remember where though. Anways, basically the point of the article was that oil companies actually make a small percentage of their profits on actual gas. They make all their money on the oil they pump out of the ground. And oil companies dont set prices. Traders on wall street do. When traders offer $68 for a barrel of oil are the oil companies supposed to say no? The cost of oil now is in response to a concern for future shortages. People pay more now to ensure they have it going foward. So when oil companies make 36 billion based on inflated prices it is not because supply is an issue now but that it may be in the future. When the future comes around all those people who paid $68 a barrell will be thankful they have oil. Long and short is that the real issue isn't much with oil companies but rather with our ability to import oil and refine it. Oil companies didn't just decide to start charging more. I wish it was that easy but it is short sighted and ineffective to blame big oil when they are only a fraction of the issue if at all.[/quote]

Very well put.

Re: F... gas prices
 

All this talk of price gouging, refineries, supply and demand, etc.

I've got the solution right here. Check out my fuel efficient [URL="http://www.retropedalcars.com/images/Marx-Big-Wheel.jpg"]convertible[/URL]

Re: F... gas prices
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]All this talk of price gouging, refineries, supply and demand, etc.

I've got the solution right here. Check out my fuel efficient [URL="http://www.retropedalcars.com/images/Marx-Big-Wheel.jpg"]convertible[/URL][/QUOTE]
Nothing like having the wind blow through your streamers.

Re: F... gas prices
 

i missed this thread... I said to buy short term oil futures a couple weeks before the hurricane hit. We don't have any sort of oil shortage, but a shortage of refinery capacity (in part due to masive consolidation). Gas prices might go down in 20 years when the refineries are all back to 100%. Meanwhile we'll have limited on shore refining and expensive off shore refining (extra shipping costs and less price control).

Re: F... gas prices
 

Very pertinent article to our discussions.

[URL="http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/12/magazines/fortune/pluggedin_fortune/index.htm?cnn=yes"]Who's to blame for high gas prices?[/URL]

Re: F... gas prices
 

[QUOTE=firstdown]You also need to know what those numbers mean. If they made a 1cent per dollar spent proffit last 1/4 and a 1 1/2 cent profit per dollar spent this 1/4 that would be a 50% increase in profit.[/QUOTE]

Well, look at it this way... exxon also owned the previous record for highest net earnings in the US before last year's 36 billion... I think the previous figure was around 27 billion. They broke the previous record by nearly 30% in one year! When you're talking pennies, the figures seems contextually minimal... but 8-9 billion on top of everything points to an economic windfall for shareholders. That's not a minimal number.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]
That's not price gouging, that's just basic principles of business. You charge the customer what the customer is willing to pay. You're willing to pay for it aren't you? As long as you keep handing over the cash to drive your car, there's nothing to complain about. That's life.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the breakdown of inelasticity... very interesting stuff indeed.

In terms of complaining, if you lived out here in LA you'd do the same thing... we don't have a great public transportation system like back home on the east coast. If you take the LA transit, you must allocate up to four x the amount of time to get to and from work. Basic economics says that this lossed time = negative output. The cost of taking the MTA offsets the savings cost at the pump. Every person here drives one to a car b/c of the crap MTA. We depend on our cars like we depend on food out here- sorry, it's just the way it is. It's not a luxury for most of us to have to drive our cars to work.

As you also know, rising oil prices also increase the costs for those who DO use public transportation. Are they allowed to complain? Many of the people who work downtown live way north in the Valley or way south in Orange County- the public transportation prices are outrageous nowadays!

Here's another analogy... a few years back, grocery workers went on strike due to union issues out here. Basically, we were forced to go to non-unionized food outlets to buy sustenence- and we paid more to do so. The chain grocery stores remained open (they hired temps/scabs), but there was hardly any food in the aisles. I kept shelling out extra cash to the smaller food outlets (trader joe's, gelson's, etc), so does that mean i wasn't allowed to complain? I had to eat didn't I?

Re: F... gas prices
 

Just heard today that Ford is closing about 14 or so plants across the nation costing bunches of jobs at there factories plus there suppliers factories. You would think Ford or and the other American companies would think of a better car that gets good gas mileage.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=itvnetop]Thanks for the breakdown of inelasticity... very interesting stuff indeed.

In terms of complaining, if you lived out here in LA you'd do the same thing... we don't have a great public transportation system like back home on the east coast. If you take the LA transit, you must allocate up to four x the amount of time to get to and from work. Basic economics says that this lossed time = negative output. The cost of taking the MTA offsets the savings cost at the pump. Every person here drives one to a car b/c of the crap MTA. We depend on our cars like we depend on food out here- sorry, it's just the way it is. It's not a luxury for most of us to have to drive our cars to work.

As you also know, rising oil prices also increase the costs for those who DO use public transportation. Are they allowed to complain? Many of the people who work downtown live way north in the Valley or way south in Orange County- the public transportation prices are outrageous nowadays!

Here's another analogy... a few years back, grocery workers went on strike due to union issues out here. Basically, we were forced to go to non-unionized food outlets to buy sustenence- and we paid more to do so. The chain grocery stores remained open (they hired temps/scabs), but there was hardly any food in the aisles. I kept shelling out extra cash to the smaller food outlets (trader joe's, gelson's, etc), so does that mean i wasn't allowed to complain? I had to eat didn't I?[/quote]

Maybe I misspoke, I wasn't trying to say you shouldn't complain. I do my fair share of bitching when I pay $45 to fill up my Toyota Camry. But what I was saying was that you shouldn't [B]blame[/B] anyone for the problem, especially not Big Oil. It's not their fault.

Your situation in California seems to indicate that demand for gas is even higher there than it is on the East Coast. You guys need gas even more than we do. That just feeds the Supply and Demand machine even more. The West Coast is even more dependant upon oil than most of America, which explains why your gas prices are higher than in most states.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]
Your situation in California seems to indicate that demand for gas is even higher there than it is on the East Coast. You guys need gas even more than we do. That just feeds the Supply and Demand machine even more. The West Coast is even more dependant upon oil than most of America, which explains why your gas prices are higher than in most states. [/QUOTE]
Not demand. Supply. Cali's uber environmental regulations mean they need more specialized blends that are of course in short supply. Plus there are higher gas taxes. In most "liberal" states the gas prices are higher because it is more socially acceptable to tax gas at a higher rate. Not attacking...just saying. Around here Maryland has the same issues.

Anything involving economics is just crazy complicated. It is unintelligent to blame one facet of a situation when something is out whack. Big oil isn't innocent but they aren't nearly as guilty as lots of people would have you believe. It just not that simple.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=FRPLG]Not demand. Supply. Cali's uber environmental regulations mean they need more specialized blends that are of course in short supply. Plus there are higher gas taxes. In most "liberal" states the gas prices are higher because it is more socially acceptable to tax gas at a higher rate. Not attacking...just saying. Around here Maryland has the same issues.

Anything involving economics is just crazy complicated. It is unintelligent to blame one facet of a situation when something is out whack. Big oil isn't innocent but they aren't nearly as guilty as lots of people would have you believe. It just not that simple.[/quote]

the main culprit was the over consolidation of oil refineries, the lack of contingency planning and fallback capacity (which we have for other vital needs, like the phone and power networks), and the general problem with politicians not wanting to address problems until it's already too late (engineers have been saying that those barriers needed fixing since at least the 80's... oops. At least they'll get fixed now :P that is, unless the country just decides it's not worth it and abandons the region for good.)

the oil consumption of war and middle east instability also has something to do with it. But again, the main problem right now isn't in getting the oil, it's in getting the refined fuels.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=FRPLG]Not demand. Supply. Cali's uber environmental regulations mean they need more specialized blends that are of course in short supply. Plus there are higher gas taxes. In most "liberal" states the gas prices are higher because it is more socially acceptable to tax gas at a higher rate. Not attacking...just saying. Around here Maryland has the same issues.

Anything involving economics is just crazy complicated. It is unintelligent to blame one facet of a situation when something is out whack. Big oil isn't innocent but they aren't nearly as guilty as lots of people would have you believe. It just not that simple.[/quote]

I was referring more to the fact that the regional mass transit system is so poor that so few people can use it. That puts more drivers on the road than in lots of East Coast cities with better mass transit. And that leads to more demand.

You're right though, the supply side is affected there too because of the intense governmental regulations on emissions.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=That Guy]the main culprit was the over consolidation of oil refineries, the lack of contingency planning and fallback capacity (which we have for other vital needs, like the phone and power networks), and the general problem with politicians not wanting to address problems until it's already too late (engineers have been saying that those barriers needed fixing since at least the 80's... oops. At least they'll get fixed now :P that is, unless the country just decides it's not worth it and abandons the region for good.)

the oil consumption of war and middle east instability also has something to do with it. But again, the main problem right now isn't in getting the oil, it's in getting the refined fuels.[/quote]

You're right that refining capacity is a big part of the reason that gas prices have jumped recently. But if you want to eliminate the pains of gas prices, the real answer is to stop using so much oil for everything. The root of the problem is demand. America is dependent upon oil for so much of what we do, finding alternative energy sources is the long-term, most viable solution to the problem.

That of course will take time though. So in the interim, you're right, more refineries are needed.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=Schneed10]
That of course will take time though. So in the interim, you're right, more refineries are needed.[/quote]

unfortunately refineries cost a lot to build and don't make much in the way of profit.

Re: F... gas prices
 

You'd think there could be some kind of goverment money set aside to build refineries to be used by all American oil corporations.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=That Guy]unfortunately refineries cost a lot to build and don't make much in the way of profit.[/quote]

Which is ultimately why we need another energy source.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]You're right that refining capacity is a big part of the reason that gas prices have jumped recently. But if you want to eliminate the pains of gas prices, the real answer is to stop using so much oil for everything. The root of the problem is demand. America is dependent upon oil for so much of what we do, finding alternative energy sources is the long-term, most viable solution to the problem.

That of course will take time though. So in the interim, you're right, more refineries are needed.[/QUOTE]
But our demand hasn't increased dramatically. The emerging demand in India and China is what is killing supply overall. It seems unfair for us to have to cut our demand while other countries expant their demand exponentially. I guess life isn't fair.

Re: F... gas prices
 

Sanctions on China and India!

Woo hah!

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=FRPLG]But our demand hasn't increased dramatically. The emerging demand in India and China is what is killing supply overall. It seems unfair for us to have to cut our demand while other countries expant their demand exponentially. I guess life isn't fair.[/quote]

No our demand hasn't increased. The demand for oil at a global level has increased because of China and India. And like we said, the price of oil is determined by traders on wall street who trade on the futures contract of crude oil. Those traders factor in global demand, not regional demand. If demand increases on the other side of the world and stays constant here, price goes up for everyone.

And cutting our dependency on oil should be something we all WANT to do as Americans, not something we reluctantly go along with. If we weren't dependent upon oil we'd have no reason to get involved in the Middle East. And if we can find a cheaper, more abundant source of energy, it would be a win-win for the entire world.

But you don't eliminate America's oil addiction by buying hybrid vehicles or taking public transportation. That will barely make a dent. You need a total switch to another source, whether it be solar, nuclear, hydrogen, or whathaveyou.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]I hate chickenheads.[/QUOTE]

goodstuff.

Re: F... gas prices
 

Just used Google to find some images for chickenhead. Here is what I came up with:

[IMG]http://p.mindviz.com/np/chickenhead.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://makemiiprettii.tripod.com/friends/Janel.JPG[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.trevweb.com/Stuff/media/chicken_head.jpg[/IMG]

Re: F... gas prices
 

Chickenhead: Slang, n.(1)a female of low class and/or moral stature (2)a foul disreputable woman usually lacking goals and direction. Chickenhead has origins in the Northeast, United States but has gained national understanding.

courtesy of: [url]http://www.playahata.com/pages/dictionary/dictionaryatog.html[/url]

Re: F... gas prices
 

They've gotta work the Jetta into that definition of chickenhead

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection]You'd think there could be some kind of goverment money set aside to build refineries to be used by all American oil corporations.[/quote]Its not that the corporations won't build the refineries its that they have not been allowed to build them. I don't think we need the goverment in the middle it would only drive prices higher. Try to name the last thing that the goverment did effeciently or more effeciently than the private sector.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=firstdown]Its not that the corporations won't build the refineries its that they have not been allowed to build them. I don't think we need the goverment in the middle it would only drive prices higher. Try to name the last thing that the goverment did effeciently or more effeciently than the private sector.[/quote]

power regulation. deregulation have private sector building power plants in places like montana and trying to send the power across the country. The limited transmission bandwidth meant that this "cheap power" was causing blackouts and RAISING prices.

You need regulation when the private sector can't manage itself.