Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[QUOTE=firstdown]Could you please give the part of the constitution which makes this ok.[/QUOTE]

Some claim the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause]Equal Protection Clause[/url] of the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution]14th Amendment[/url] law protects smokers from having to stand outside, but who protects people who want to be inside without being subjected to toxic fumes? Simply put, the 14th Amendment is a double edged sword and the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution"]15th[/URL] and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution"]19th[/URL] Amendments allows the public/community to decide what their public health needs are.

p.s. Smoking is bad, not smoking is good! Good wins over evil but you can still do evil outside or from the comfort of your home. May the force be with you.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

ive been a smoker on and off for many years. im extremely considerate of nonsmokers even in outside settings, out of respect for their choice to not smoke. i dont smoke in my house or around my kids,ever. mostly i smoke during the day in my truck between jobs, and i do enjoy having a smoke if im out having a drink. i know theres alot of a-hole smokers out there who could care less about non smokers, which i think is ignorant. theres a time and place for everything.we shouldnt open the pandoras box of what should be legal/illegal and how the govt. should/shouldnt get involved. bzness owners should be aloud to make that decision. trust me if a bar/rest. owner can make more money being smoke free...well thats a no brainer. drinking,smoking and many other things should be done responsilby and w/ care. anyway, im going outside to burn one while i try the new heiny lite beer.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=SkinEmAll]anyway, im going outside to burn one while i try the new heiny lite beer.[/quote]

Speaking of that new heineken light, it's pretty damn good!

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=SkinEmAll]trust me if a bar/rest. owner can make more money being smoke free...well thats a no brainer.[/quote]

Exactly, the market should dictate it, not government.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=saden1]Some claim the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause"]Equal Protection Clause[/URL] of the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution"]14th Amendment[/URL] law protects smokers from having to stand outside, but who protects people who want to be inside without being subjected to toxic fumes? Simply put, the 14th Amendment is a double edged sword and the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution"]15th[/URL] and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution"]19th[/URL] Amendments allows the public/community to decide what their public health needs are.

p.s. Smoking is bad, not smoking is good! Good wins over evil but you can still do evil outside or from the comfort of your home. May the force be with you.[/quote]Thats right one can choose not to go to a Res or bar that allows smoking. I just feel that if there is a demand for nonsmoking bars and res then people will open them or switch to nonsmoking. IT has already started in most areas that Res and bars going to non smoking and if smoking bars and res see a drop in business or a demand from they public they will switch. The goverment just does not need to get involved in the private sector in this matter it will work its self out.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

This entire argument about "free markets" dictating whether or not someone should allow smoking is off base. Sure, customers can choose to attend the restaurants/bars that suit their needs. But what about the employees? They have to work in that environment. Being subjected to a smoke-filled environment creates a hazardous work condition.

And if you let free markets dictate smoking and non-smoking, all bars are going to choose to allow smoking (as is the case in Pennsylvania and all other states without Tobacco bans). It's a no-brainer, they'll make much more cash by allowing smoking. And that's why there are no smoke-free bars in PA, and hence no smoke-free choices for bartenders and waitresses to work in. The law has to be in place to protect workers' rights, not to mention the health of everyone.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

And the money lost by the bar and restaurant business due to a smoking ban will be more than offset by savings people will experience on health insurance premiums, Medicare and Medicaid taxes, and healthcare expenses in general over the next 50 years.

The less exposure society has to second hand smoke, the lower the incidence of cancer and other harmful health effects.

Sucks for the bar owners, but in the long run it's going to be better for America's collective pocketbook.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]But what about the employees? They have to work in that environment. Being subjected to a smoke-filled environment creates a hazardous work condition.

And if you let free markets dictate smoking and non-smoking, all bars are going to choose to allow smoking (as is the case in Pennsylvania and all other states without Tobacco bans). It's a no-brainer, they'll make much more cash by allowing smoking. And that's why there are no smoke-free bars in PA, and hence no smoke-free choices for bartenders and waitresses to work in. The law has to be in place to protect workers' rights, not to mention the health of everyone.[/QUOTE]

No one forces anybody to work in a smoking bar or restaurant. Just like no one is forced to work in a coal mine or join the police or fire departments. I used to work in the restaurant business. There are ALWAYS jobs available for waiters, servers and bartenders. The turnover rate is like nothing you've ever seen in that field. If there are absolutely no restaurants that non-smoking employees can stand, then move to a place where there are non-smoking restaurants. If you can’t find any, THEN FIND A NEW LINE OF WORK.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]And the money lost by the bar and restaurant business due to a smoking ban will be more than offset by savings people will experience on health insurance premiums, Medicare and Medicaid taxes, and healthcare expenses in general over the next 50 years.

The less exposure society has to second hand smoke, the lower the incidence of cancer and other harmful health effects.

Sucks for the bar owners, but in the long run it's going to be better for America's collective pocketbook.[/QUOTE]

Then why stop at restaurants? Why not ban smoking period? Make it as illegal as marijuana, cocaine and heroin. We all know how well that's working!

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Schneed10]And the money lost by the bar and restaurant business due to a smoking ban will be more than offset by savings people will experience on health insurance premiums, Medicare and Medicaid taxes, and healthcare expenses in general over the next 50 years.

The less exposure society has to second hand smoke, the lower the incidence of cancer and other harmful health effects.

Sucks for the bar owners, but in the long run it's going to be better for America's collective pocketbook.[/quote]Ok now we need a one drink per hour limit thats one beer, or one glass of wine, or 1oz achol. Druken driven kills thousands of people each year and alot of the drivers are coming home from bars or Resturants. This will reduce accidents, deaths, save on health insurance, medicade because of injuries in accidents. The less exposure society has from drunkin drivers the lower incidence of accidents and other harmful things drinking does.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=jamf]I hate kissing a smoker...[/quote]

Then dump him.


Sorry! :Flush:

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=firstdown]Ok now we need a one drink per hour limit thats one beer, or one glass of wine, or 1oz achol. Druken driven kills thousands of people each year and alot of the drivers are coming home from bars or Resturants. This will reduce accidents, deaths, save on health insurance, medicade because of injuries in accidents. The less exposure society has from drunkin drivers the lower incidence of accidents and other harmful things drinking does.[/quote]

Well in case you hadn't noticed, drunken driving is illegal too. DUI laws say you can drink, you just have to find a ride home. The smoking law says you can smoke, just not in this enclosed space.

It's simple. Go outside to smoke, and find an alternative ride home when you're drunk. Nothing needs to be banned completely, that would be taking it way too far. There are ways to reconcile between personal freedoms and respect for the health of others. I honestly wouldn't mind if they tried to make tobacco illegal, but I realize this is totally unrealistic and runs contrary to the freedoms this country stands for. There's a way we can all exercise our freedoms and still protect the health of others around us. You should be allowed to get wasted if you want, as long as you plan to arrange another ride home so you don't hurt people. And you should be allowed to smoke if you want, as long as you smoke outside so you don't hurt people.

PS I work as a financial analyst for Temple University Health System in Philly. We get a grant from the state every year (and so do many other city hospitals) to help cover the costs of treating uninsured patients for illnesses due to smoking. We don't get any such thing to cover the costs of alcohol related illnesses. The state recognizes the financial impact smoking has on hospitals. The financial impact is nowhere close from that of drinking, hence no alcohol grant from the state. Treating lung cancer is A LOT more costly (radiation therapy, chemotherapy, biopsies, lung transplants, lung volume reduction surgery, and surgical removal of tumors) than treating trauma-related injuries from DUI accidents.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Beemnseven]No one forces anybody to work in a smoking bar or restaurant. Just like no one is forced to work in a coal mine or join the police or fire departments. I used to work in the restaurant business. There are ALWAYS jobs available for waiters, servers and bartenders. The turnover rate is like nothing you've ever seen in that field. If there are absolutely no restaurants that non-smoking employees can stand, then move to a place where there are non-smoking restaurants. If you can’t find any, THEN FIND A NEW LINE OF WORK.[/quote]

Oh sure, Beem. Go ahead and tell everyone who is subjected to smoky environments that if they don't like it, find another job. If you were running for office with that stance, you'd lose in a landslide. People don't want to hear a leader say, "if you don't like it, tough sh*t, deal with it."

I know you're not a politician, but your stance is not realistic from a politics point of view. There are too many votes there to just brush off the problem.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

Lets say smoking was banned and everyone stopped smoking tomorrow... obviously in the long run the average age of the population is going to increase and probably result in an increase in health care costs anyway.

I wonder how much of a tradeoff it would be... killing people off early vs. people living longer.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

By the way. Have any of you seen "Thank You For Smoking"? It's actually a pretty entertaining movie, though it has a bit of a lull about 3/4ths in but it starts and ends strong.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

I go back to Malcolm's point: What's easier?

A) The smokers walk outside, catch a smoke, come back in.
B) Non-Smokers search far and wide for the one of the very few bars and restaurants that don't allow smoking, many driving a great distance to get there because such a business is rare.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Mattyk72]Lets say smoking was banned and everyone stopped smoking tomorrow... obviously in the long run the average age of the population is going to increase and probably result in an increase in health care costs anyway.

I wonder how much of a tradeoff it would be... killing people off early vs. people living longer.[/quote]

But when people live longer and healthier lives, they contribute to society by working longer.

If you're assuming the average retirement age stays exactly where it is now, then I agree with you. But it won't. As the country's life expectancy rises, many will continue working well into their 60s and 70s (especially amongst the working class population who don't have the wherewithall to build large retirement savings accounts).

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

I know I'm doing my rapid-fire post thing again, where I pretty much talk to myself. But I felt the need to point out one more thing.

There is a subset of the population that views bars as a necessary part of life. Many single people rely on bars to meet people and socialize. Let's face it, they are the single biggest central location for dating and meeting members of the opposite sex. Yes, there are other ways to meet people, and bars may not be the best bet to meet your future wife. But to find a date, for many, that's the place to go.

So in a way, when you say "if you don't like smoke, go somewhere else", you're in effect limiting the freedoms of the non-smokers. Because smokers are allowed to exercise their freedom to smoke in a bar, you're asking the non-smokers to make a choice between their health and a social life to some extent.

It's easier if the smoker just walks outside to catch his smoke.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Schneed10].



It's easier if the smoker just walks outside to catch his smoke.[/quote]yeah, we are talking like 5 min. its not like we want to banish all smokers to one place but rather just ask them to smoke their poison in private so we dont have to smell that shit!

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Schneed10]Well in case you hadn't noticed, drunken driving is illegal too. DUI laws say you can drink, you just have to find a ride home. The smoking law says you can smoke, just not in this enclosed space.

It's simple. Go outside to smoke, and find an alternative ride home when you're drunk. Nothing needs to be banned completely, that would be taking it way too far. There are ways to reconcile between personal freedoms and respect for the health of others. I honestly wouldn't mind if they tried to make tobacco illegal, but I realize this is totally unrealistic and runs contrary to the freedoms this country stands for. There's a way we can all exercise our freedoms and still protect the health of others around us. You should be allowed to get wasted if you want, as long as you plan to arrange another ride home so you don't hurt people. And you should be allowed to smoke if you want, as long as you smoke outside so you don't hurt people.

PS I work as a financial analyst for Temple University Health System in Philly. We get a grant from the state every year (and so do many other city hospitals) to help cover the costs of treating uninsured patients for illnesses due to smoking. We don't get any such thing to cover the costs of alcohol related illnesses. The state recognizes the financial impact smoking has on hospitals. The financial impact is nowhere close from that of drinking, hence no alcohol grant from the state. Treating lung cancer is A LOT more costly (radiation therapy, chemotherapy, biopsies, lung transplants, lung volume reduction surgery, and surgical removal of tumors) than treating trauma-related injuries from DUI accidents.[/quote]I no driving and drinking is illegal but rest. and bars still serve drunk people that they know are going to be driving. So by passing this law you would be looking out for the good of everyone.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=firstdown]I no driving and drinking is illegal but rest. and bars still serve drunk people that they know are going to be driving. So by passing this law you would be looking out for the good of everyone.[/quote]

Granted, but you'd be limiting personal freedoms too much. Nobody would ever be able to get wasted.

Didn't you bring up this point to make a comparison to my argument that the indoor smoking ban has long-term health benefits? The reason I back the indoor smoking ban is because it protects the health of non-smokers while not asking smokers to give up too much in the way of personal freedoms.

Personal freedoms have to be protected in this country, that's first and foremost for me. But if you can make moderate changes to those freedoms and gain a lot in terms of health for non-smokers, that's a win for the country.

Trying to keep people to one beer an hour, while I agree would be a benefit to society's health, basically takes away all personal freedoms regarding getting bombed. There would be no drunken hookups, no good stories from a night out with your buddies, no bachelor parties, etc. It sounds like I'm kidding, but I'm not. That has a big impact on our lives, it would directly affect quality of life. Asking smokers to step outside to light up doesn't have anywhere close to the negative impact on our personal freedoms. It's a simple solution, and it's not asking too much at all.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]Oh sure, Beem. Go ahead and tell everyone who is subjected to smoky environments that if they don't like it, find another job. If you were running for office with that stance, you'd lose in a landslide. People don't want to hear a leader say, "if you don't like it, tough sh*t, deal with it."

I know you're not a politician, but your stance is not realistic from a politics point of view. There are too many votes there to just brush off the problem.[/QUOTE]

First of all, I don't base my philosophical beliefs on what is popular, in the hopes of earning points with the rest of the sheep. I'm also not running for anything. Unfortunately though, you're correct – any politician would lose if they ran on the platform of personal responsibility.

"Don't like smoking in a restaurant?" Mr. Politician might say, "No problem! I'll just use the police powers of government and ban all smoking in private restaurants. That way, you don't have to get off your ass and take your personal health standards in your own hands, just let the government do that for you!" More and more in this country, that exact scenario is actually very appealing to voters. I don't like something, so I'm going to my representative in the government to get him to outlaw it.

Let me try a little intellectual honesty test on you, Schneed: In the interest of protecting the health of all Americans, should the government also institute legislation to prohibit the serving of all fried, fatty foods and desserts? I mean, certainly you must agree that obesity and heart disease also pose a tremendous burden on our health care situation. So if your consistent, you'd be in favor of banning Buffalo wings and brownie sundaes, right?

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Schneed10]Granted, but you'd be limiting personal freedoms too much. Nobody would ever be able to get wasted.

Didn't you bring up this point to make a comparison to my argument that the indoor smoking ban has long-term health benefits? The reason I back the indoor smoking ban is because it protects the health of non-smokers while not asking smokers to give up too much in the way of personal freedoms.

Personal freedoms have to be protected in this country, that's first and foremost for me. But if you can make moderate changes to those freedoms and gain a lot in terms of health for non-smokers, that's a win for the country.

Trying to keep people to one beer an hour, while I agree would be a benefit to society's health, basically takes away all personal freedoms regarding getting bombed. There would be no drunken hookups, no good stories from a night out with your buddies, no bachelor parties, etc. It sounds like I'm kidding, but I'm not. That has a big impact on our lives, it would directly affect quality of life. Asking smokers to step outside to light up doesn't have anywhere close to the negative impact on our personal freedoms. It's a simple solution, and it's not asking too much at all.[/quote]I did not bring up the one drink for the health of the person but for the people that are killed by drunken drivers. I notice all the things that you don't want to give up for this so what your saying the smoking ban does not effect me so go for it but the drink limit would so its not a good law. I do smoke but when I go out to dinner it is 95% of the time to a non smoking resturant because I do not like eating with the guy next to me smoking while I eat. If I go to a bar that allows smoking but no one is I will go out side and smoke it does not bother me.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]I go back to Malcolm's point: What's easier?

A) The smokers walk outside, catch a smoke, come back in.
B) Non-Smokers search far and wide for the one of the very few bars and restaurants that don't allow smoking, many driving a great distance to get there because such a business is rare.[/QUOTE]

What's easier indeed.

A.) Non-smokers in restaurant that allows smoking are repulsed, inform the manager of their plans, and promptly leave.

B.) Non-smokers petition their representatives in the government to ban smoking in every single restaurant and bar. Nevermind the fact that they aren't forced to eat out every night in order to survive. But because on one particular Saturday night, they can't stand the cigarette smoke in the local pizza joint, so they seek to punish every restaurant or bar owner in the state, (or the nation if they could do it) and make it illegal for everyone else to light up under the penalty of law.

By the way, Schneed, no one has a "right" to go out to eat and force restaurants to cater to their particular needs, likes or dislikes. If you don't like loud music, you don't go to a rock concert, complain that it's unhealthy for your eardrums and seek out legislation to outlaw loud music.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Beemnseven]First of all, I don't base my philosophical beliefs on what is popular, in the hopes of earning points with the rest of the sheep. I'm also not running for anything. Unfortunately though, you're correct – any politician would lose if they ran on the platform of personal responsibility.

"Don't like smoking in a restaurant?" Mr. Politician might say, "No problem! I'll just use the police powers of government and ban all smoking in private restaurants. That way, you don't have to get off your ass and take your personal health standards in your own hands, just let the government do that for you!" More and more in this country, that exact scenario is actually very appealing to voters. I don't like something, so I'm going to my representative in the government to get him to outlaw it.

Let me try a little intellectual honesty test on you, Schneed: In the interest of protecting the health of all Americans, should the government also institute legislation to prohibit the serving of all fried, fatty foods and desserts? I mean, certainly you must agree that obesity and heart disease also pose a tremendous burden on our health care situation. So if your consistent, you'd be in favor of banning Buffalo wings and brownie sundaes, right?[/quote]

No I wouldn't be in favor of a ban on fatty foods like that. First off, it's not a fair comparison. I'm not advocating a total ban on all smoking. I'm advocating a ban in indoor, public places. You're suggesting that the government ban fatty foods, which is going MUCH further than the indoor smoking ban law does. Smokers can still smoke by stepping outside. What you're suggesting is that the goverment limit fatty foods completely. That's not a fair comparison.

Banning fatty foods would be the same as banning alcohol or banning smoking altogether, in my mind. It's going too far and taking away too much personal freedom.

I agree that banning fatty foods would be a health benefit to society. But if you read my previous posts, you'll see I don't agree with having to give up too much in the way of personal freedoms. An indoor ban on smoking doesn't ask too much of smokers: simply step outside to smoke. It's not saying "you can't smoke at all, harumph harumph harumph." You can smoke, just go outside, and come back when you're done. Quite easy.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[QUOTE=firstdown]I no driving and drinking is illegal but rest. and bars still serve drunk people that they know are going to be driving. So by passing this law you would be looking out for the good of everyone.[/QUOTE]

Bars serving drunk people are breaking the law in almost all states. Lets face it folks there are limitations on your rights...it isn't as universal as you might think. I mean, you can't masturbate in public during Sunday launch at Denny's. Why? Good question, maybe you pro-smoker people can explain why...lol.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Schneed10]Granted, but you'd be limiting personal freedoms too much. Nobody would ever be able to get wasted.

Didn't you bring up this point to make a comparison to my argument that the indoor smoking ban has long-term health benefits? The reason I back the indoor smoking ban is because it protects the health of non-smokers while not asking smokers to give up too much in the way of personal freedoms.

Personal freedoms have to be protected in this country, that's first and foremost for me. But if you can make moderate changes to those freedoms and gain a lot in terms of health for non-smokers, that's a win for the country.

Trying to keep people to one beer an hour, while I agree would be a benefit to society's health, basically takes away all personal freedoms regarding getting bombed. There would be no drunken hookups, no good stories from a night out with your buddies, no bachelor parties, etc. It sounds like I'm kidding, but I'm not. That has a big impact on our lives, it would directly affect quality of life. Asking smokers to step outside to light up doesn't have anywhere close to the negative impact on our personal freedoms. It's a simple solution, and it's not asking too much at all.[/quote]We did read your other post and its clear that you want to ban smoking for health reasons(which does not effect you life style). The limit on drinks would so that law goes to far. Read you last paragraph on all the thing YOU could not do. You say how it would impact your life how about the non-drinker who gets kill from a drunk leaving a bar.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=saden1]Bars serving drunk people are breaking the law in almost all states. Lets face it folks there are limitations on your rights...it isn't as universal as you might think. I mean, you can't masturbate in public during Sunday launch at Denny's. Why? Good question, maybe you pro-smoker people can explain why...lol.[/quote]You can't?LOL

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Beemnseven]What's easier indeed.

A.) Non-smokers in restaurant that allows smoking are repulsed, inform the manager of their plans, and promptly leave.

B.) Non-smokers petition their representatives in the government to ban smoking in every single restaurant and bar. Nevermind the fact that they aren't forced to eat out every night in order to survive. But because on one particular Saturday night, they can't stand the cigarette smoke in the local pizza joint, so they seek to punish every restaurant or bar owner in the state, (or the nation if they could do it) and make it illegal for everyone else to either light up under the penalty of law.

[B]By the way, Schneed, no one has a "right" to go out to eat and force restaurants to cater to their particular needs, likes or dislikes.[/B] If you don't like loud music, you don't go to a rock concert, complain that it's unhealthy for your eardrums and seek out legislation to outlaw loud music.[/quote]

In regards to the bolded part, why don't non-smokers have the right to lobby for an indoor ban? Where in the constitution does it say that people can't do this?

You act like it's this law that's in place that the government can't tell you what to do with your place of business. That's simply not true. From a legal standpoint the government is well within it's rights to pass laws governing your behavior within your own establishment.

I think it's simply your personal belief that the government should't be telling businesses what to do in this situation, because you can't possibly have any legal ground to stand on. And when there's no legal reason why this ban can't affect private establishments, the rule of the majority comes into play. If there are enough non-smokers who want these places smoke free, and they have the representation in NJ state congress to get that law passed, then they are well within their legal rights to enforce the ban on these places.

Maybe you are arguing your point based on your utopian view of the way the world works: this notion that the government can't tell me what to do with my own damn bar. But dude, I live in the real world, and it doesn't work that way.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=firstdown]We did read your other post and its clear that you want to ban smoking for health reasons(which does not effect you life style). The limit on drinks would so that law goes to far. Read you last paragraph on all the thing YOU could not do. You say how it would impact your life how about the non-drinker who gets kill from a drunk leaving a bar.[/quote]

Firstdown, you're not hearing me. YES DRINKING AND DRIVING HAS A NEGATIVE IMPACT ON SOCIETY'S HEALTH.

Sorry, I know the caps are annoying, but I've acknowledged your point before and you haven't seemed to understand me. The negative impact I'm talking about is the deaths of drunk drivers themselves AND those they kill. I get your point, it's a similar argument because second hand smoke harms OTHER people, and drinking and driving harms OTHER people.

The difference is an indoor smoking ban allows the smoker to continue smoking without harming the health of others, by simply smoking outside. A ban on alcohol (or limiting to one beer an hour) would keep EVERYONE from getting drunk, even those who are responsible enough to take a cab home.

A ban on smoking indoors allows you to smoke responsibly, keeping others out of harm's way. A ban on drunk driving allows you to drink responsibly by getting drunk and finding another ride home. But a ban on drinking altogether would be going too far, it would punish everyone, even those responsible enough to handle themselves in an intelligent manner.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Schneed10]In regards to the bolded part, why don't non-smokers have the right to lobby for an indoor ban? Where in the constitution does it say that people can't do this?

You act like it's this law that's in place that the government can't tell you what to do with your place of business. That's simply not true. From a legal standpoint the government is well within it's rights to pass laws governing your behavior within your own establishment.

I think it's simply your personal belief that the government should't be telling businesses what to do in this situation, because you can't possibly have any legal ground to stand on. And when there's no legal reason why this ban can't affect private establishments, the rule of the majority comes into play. If there are enough non-smokers who want these places smoke free, and they have the representation in NJ state congress to get that law passed, then they are well within their legal rights to enforce the ban on these places.

Maybe you are arguing your point based on your utopian view of the way the world works: this notion that the government can't tell me what to do with my own damn bar. But dude, I live in the real world, and it doesn't work that way.[/quote]Yes and when everyone thinks like that we can be mine numb and just do as we are told. I would bet that it was not a majority in NJ that got the law passed it was the people who yelled the most and a liberal state. If the demand was so high why are there not any smoke free places.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Schneed10]Firstdown, you're not hearing me. YES DRINKING AND DRIVING HAS A NEGATIVE IMPACT ON SOCIETY'S HEALTH.

Sorry, I know the caps are annoying, but I've acknowledged your point before and you haven't seemed to understand me. The negative impact I'm talking about is the deaths of drunk drivers themselves AND those they kill. I get your point, it's a similar argument because second hand smoke harms OTHER people, and drinking and driving harms OTHER people.

The difference is an indoor smoking ban allows the smoker to continue smoking without harming the health of others, by simply smoking outside. A ban on alcohol (or limiting to one beer an hour) would keep EVERYONE from getting drunk, even those who are responsible enough to take a cab home.

A ban on smoking indoors allows you to smoke responsibly, keeping others out of harm's way. A ban on drunk driving allows you to drink responsibly by getting drunk and finding another ride home. But a ban on drinking altogether would be going too far, it would punish everyone, even those responsible enough to handle themselves in an intelligent manner.[/quote]Like you said the goverment passes laws every day on business that effect some, few, or all people. You could stay at home and drink all you wanted so it would not stop you from drinking. I guess we just have to agree to disagree on the role of our big goverment which just got a little bigger.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=firstdown]Yes and when everyone thinks like that we can be mine numb and just do as we are told. I would bet that it was not a majority in NJ that got the law passed it was the people who yelled the most and a liberal state.[/quote]

There's nothing saying you can't lobby for your point, if you think the goverment shouldn't be able to tell business owners what to do with their private businesses, then by all means lobby for that law to be put in place.

I was just pointing out that such a law is not in place [B]currently[/B]. Meaning there's nothing preventing people from launching a campaign to ban smoking.

And some stats for you:
- 20-25% of the nation's population smokes
- 30-35% of people aged 25-35 are smokers, the highest percentage of any age group, and these are the people who attend bars most frequently.

If you owned a bar and 35% of your business was smoking, would you want it banned? No, no owner would. But 65% of that age group are still non-smokers, and would still love to see it banned. And yes Virginia, that is a majority, and that's how the law got put into place.

Stats as seen here:
[URL="http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/public-health/health-promotion/tobacco/facts/index.html"]http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/public-health/health-promotion/tobacco/facts/index.html[/URL]

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Schneed10]There's nothing saying you can't lobby for your point, if you think the goverment shouldn't be able to tell business owners what to do with their private businesses, then by all means lobby for that law to be put in place.

I was just pointing out that such a law is not in place [B]currently[/B]. Meaning there's nothing preventing people from launching a campaign to ban smoking.

And some stats for you:
- 20-25% of the nation's population smokes
- 30-35% of people aged 25-35 are smokers, the highest percentage of any age group, and these are the people who attend bars most frequently.

If you owned a bar and 35% of your business was smoking, would you want it banned? No, no owner would. But 65% of that age group are still non-smokers, and would still love to see it banned. And yes Virginia, that is a majority, and that's how the law got put into place.

Stats as seen here:
[URL="http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/public-health/health-promotion/tobacco/facts/index.html"]http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/public-health/health-promotion/tobacco/facts/index.html[/URL][/quote] If I knew I was loosing the 65% of the non smokers to a non smoking bar do to the smokers I would become a non smoking bar. Then word would get around and the 65% going to anothr smoking bar may come to my bar.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]No I wouldn't be in favor of a ban on fatty foods like that. First off, it's not a fair comparison. I'm not advocating a total ban on all smoking. I'm advocating a ban in indoor, public places. You're suggesting that the government ban fatty foods, which is going MUCH further than the indoor smoking ban law does. Smokers can still smoke by stepping outside. What you're suggesting is that the goverment limit fatty foods completely. That's not a fair comparison.

Banning fatty foods would be the same as banning alcohol or banning smoking altogether, in my mind. It's going too far and taking away too much personal freedom.

I agree that banning fatty foods would be a health benefit to society. But if you read my previous posts, you'll see I don't agree with having to give up too much in the way of personal freedoms. An indoor ban on smoking doesn't ask too much of smokers: simply step outside to smoke. It's not saying "you can't smoke at all, harumph harumph harumph." You can smoke, just go outside, and come back when you're done. Quite easy.[/QUOTE]

Not a fair comparison? What would be the difference between the government acting on behalf of the health of non-smoking patrons of a restaurant by banning smoking, and doing the same by prohibiting that same restaurant from serving unhealthy foods? In both instances, as I've argued, the patron is not forced to be there. He or she can leave. In your world, the government must protect the health of everyone who goes to that restaurant and breathes the air that fills it, but is coincidentally not obliged to do the same for the food that is served there. What gives?

Your idea of personal freedom is an interesting one. Instead of acknowledging my right to start a business, say, a cigar bar that caters to cigar smokers, you're more interested in the right of a non-smoking patron to walk in that cigar bar, be upset with the smoke, and get the government to close down my business. That's kind of absurd, don't you think?

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Beemnseven]Not a fair comparison? What would be the difference between the government acting on behalf of the health of non-smoking patrons of a restaurant by banning smoking, and doing the same by prohibiting that same restaurant from serving unhealthy foods?[/quote]

They're very different. One rule denies people the opportunity to eat food anywhere. The other denies people the opportunity to smoke IN CERTAIN PLACES. I don't see what's so hard to understand here. One is an all out ban, the other simply designates areas as off-limits.

If we were banning smoking altogether, I'd be against it. But we're not.

[quote=Beemnseven] Your idea of personal freedom is an interesting one. Instead of acknowledging my right to start a business, say, a cigar bar that caters to cigar smokers, you're more interested in the right of a non-smoking patron to walk in that cigar bar, be upset with the smoke, and get the government to close down my business. That's kind of absurd, don't you think?[/quote]

Cigar bars are an interesting case. That's a place specifically geared towards smokers. There's generally no reason that someone would go there unless they want to smoke, or be in the company of other smokers. So in that case I'd say cigar bars should be exempt from smoking bans. Their business is based around smoking, so they should be left alone.

Regular bars however, exist primarily to give people a place to socialize and have drinks. Smoking is not a necessary part of the business, it's just something that comes along with those who drink. You can eliminate smoking in the bar without putting the bar out of business.

If you disagree with that point, why don't we revisit this issue in 6 months or so. Let's see how many bars in NJ have gone out of business by then. I'm guessing the rate at which bars fail in NJ will not change from pre-ban times. Bars make a killing, they'll get along fine. Smokers will still show up, they'll adapt and smoke outside.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

My grandfather runs a small, local tavern in NY.

The smoking ban has definitely eaten up a huge chunk of his business.

There are other local bars that allow smoking and are basically giving the state the finger... that's where all his business has gone unfortunately.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

heres a nice front page story for ya, so the nice respectfull Smoker accepts the loss of his and all bar and rest. owners right to smoke inside. he goes to his favorite drinking spot after stopping off at his favorite sushi bar for a very healthy dinner (no fat/grease). after drinking a couple heiney lights,and stepping Outside for a couple of smokes hes ready to go. so as hes crossing the street to get to his compact hybrid car, hes plowed down by a Non smoker driving a huge polluting suv who left the same bar celebrating the new non smoking law by drinking 6 mick lights,3 shots of yager and 1 shot of goldschlager. in between drinks hes eating 12 hot wings and a plate nachos supreme (xtra sour cream). i guess if the bar was a Smoking bar the non smoker wouldnt have stayed as long and got as hammered and we'd have 1 happy smoker still w/ us.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Mattyk72]My grandfather runs a small, local tavern in NY.

The smoking ban has definitely eaten up a huge chunk of his business.

There are other local bars that allow smoking and are basically giving the state the finger... that's where all his business has gone unfortunately.[/quote]

No doubt it hurts him. But I'd bet my life that if you showed me his books, he's still turning a profit.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=SkinEmAll]heres a nice front page story for ya, so the nice respectfull Smoker accepts the loss of his and all bar and rest. owners right to smoke inside. he goes to his favorite drinking spot after stopping off at his favorite sushi bar for a very healthy dinner (no fat/grease). after drinking a couple heiney lights,and stepping Outside for a couple of smokes hes ready to go. so as hes crossing the street to get to his compact hybrid car, hes plowed down by a Non smoker driving a huge polluting suv who left the same bar celebrating the new non smoking law by drinking 6 mick lights,3 shots of yager and 1 shot of goldschlager. in between drinks hes eating 12 hot wings and a plate nachos supreme (xtra sour cream). i guess if the bar was a Smoking bar the non smoker wouldnt have stayed as long and got as hammered and we'd have 1 happy smoker still w/ us.[/quote]

LOL

Why didn't the non-smoker get a cab? In that absolutely ludicrous hypothetical example, it was the drunk driver's choice to get behind the wheel that killed the guy, not the many beers he drank "in celebration" of a smoking ban.

The alcohol is not an excuse. You still have to be responsible for your actions when wasted. It's not the bar's fault that he chose to drive home, it's not the state's fault, it's not Anheuser-Busch's fault, it's HIS fault.