Re: New Poster Making People Mad
 

[QUOTE=JWsleep;226748]That being said, Brunnell is not the kind of QB to win you games on his own (though he did it gainst Dallas last year). And that's not his role here. The coaches know what they have, and I think they schemed very well for Brunnell against Jax. You coach to your players--that how it's done. I think Campbell will ultimately give them lots more options in the passing game (and I'm sure Gibbs thinks so too--that's why he traded up for him). But right now everything is geared towards making it work with MB. Changing now would be a big deal, and most likely unhelpful in the short-term. If we see a game where everyone else is kicking butt and MB is woeful (and we did in 2004), then things change. But that's not what happened on Sunday in NY, IMO.[/QUOTE]

er, i think Moss's unique gifts as a receiver were just as responsible for the Dallas game as Brunell. i think the combination of the two can be VERY powerful, but its way underused.

it's also impossible for 'everyone' to kick ass if they don't get the ball. maybe Randle El could physically throw to himself, but the others sure couldn't.

Re: New Poster Making People Mad
 

Tinkering with our QB situation right now would be pointless, because Jason Campbell does not represent an upgrade over Brunell at the current time.

So there's no use banging our heads against the wall about Brunell. He is what he is. Accurate when given time, gets shut down when pressured.

Since you can't do much about your QB right now, you've got no choice but to plan to play with him. To make Brunell successful, the line HAS to block very well. Our offense depends upon the line, not on Mark Brunell. If the line gives him time, Brunell's going to do what all average NFL QBs can do: deliver the ball.

If there's one thing we've learned over the last few years it is that Brunell is consistent within situations. When he's hurt, he's horrible. When he's healthy and has time, he operates the offense very well (just like most QBs can do). And when he's pressured he dumps the ball off avoiding turnovers, and punting over and over.

The throw-away and punt strategy usually works better when you have a defense that can get the ball back and get off the field. But when you have a defense playing like swiss cheese, Brunell's throw-aways become a bigger issue.

Re: New Poster Making People Mad
 

[quote=Schneed10;226758]Tinkering with our QB situation right now would be pointless, because Jason Campbell does not represent an upgrade over Brunell at the current time.

So there's no use banging our heads against the wall about Brunell. He is what he is. Accurate when given time, gets shut down when pressured.

Since you can't do much about your QB right now, you've got no choice but to plan to play with him. To make Brunell successful, the line HAS to block very well. Our offense depends upon the line, not on Mark Brunell. If the line gives him time, Brunell's going to do what all average NFL QBs can do: deliver the ball.

If there's one thing we've learned over the last few years it is that Brunell is consistent within situations. When he's hurt, he's horrible. When he's healthy and has time, he operates the offense very well (just like most QBs can do). And when he's pressured he dumps the ball off avoiding turnovers, and punting over and over.

The throw-away and punt strategy usually works better when you have a defense that can get the ball back and get off the field. But when you have a defense playing like swiss cheese, Brunell's throw-aways become a bigger issue.[/quote]

Well said.

Brunell is what he is. He's not a QB that's going to win games for you all by himself. I've said it before and I'll say it again, his play mirrors that of the players around him. When the offense is playing well as a unit, chances are he also plays well. When the unit stinks like last week, he's going to stink.

If you're waiting for Brunell to magically become Peyton Manning overnight, keep dreaming because it isn't going to happen.

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[quote=Southpaw;226722]Apparently, those five minutes of football solidified him as the starter for the rest of his career, no matter how inconsistent he plays. How many sub par performances does he get for one miracle comeback in two and a half seasons?[/quote]

I guess you are right, after all he is still the starter and there are no plans to replace him this year anyway.

Really he is not the problem here. Everybody wanted Brunell's head after the first two games, then after the next two games it was all about breaking Gannon's record for consecutive completions in a game, then putting up 36 points on a number three defense. Then all of a sudden we get into another divisional game against the team that, by the way won our division last year, a team that has a pretty good defense themselves, in their house, after a bye week, with their backs against the wall, and we lose...Aaaah it's Brunell, and he sucks, blah, blah, blah.

It was not Brunell's fault we lost. It was the offensive line's inconsistencies, the secondary's poor coverage at times, the defensive line's lack of pressure on Eli, the missed field goals, suspect play calling at times. As a TEAM they need to get better, and as the team gets better so does Brunell.

Re: New Poster Making People Mad
 

[quote=Schneed10;226758]The throw-away and punt strategy usually works better when you have a defense that can get the ball back and get off the field. But when you have a defense playing like swiss cheese, Brunell's throw-aways become a bigger issue.[/quote]

That is a very good point, Schneed! In fact, in may be one of the best posts I've read since the season started. The offense can't rely on the defense to keep them in the game as it stands now. Saunders is going to have to open it up a little bit and take some chances. We have extremely talented playmakers and it needs to be a case of "you versus me, let's see who's better."

Re: New Poster Making People Mad
 

[quote=illdefined;226750]yeah the O-Line obviously struggled. but we were up against a rested Umenyiora and Strahan, we also knew that coming in. when a part of the team is struggling, another has to come up and make some PLAYS, even if they are risky. Brunell clearly can't do that anymore, and honestly didn't even try.

if Brunell doesn't try, that means Moss, Lloyd, Randle El, and Cooley can't either. result: LOSS

- EDIT: ok, he TRIED to escape the sacks (like he used to be able to do) but he didn't try enough passes downfield regardless of risk towards the end of the game.[/quote]

Do you really want him throwing the ball up for grabs? Because that's what it sounds like you're suggesting. If only beating a D was that easy and only required the QB to 'try' throwing deep.

If it's not there he rarely will force the issue, that's just how he plays the game. If the game comes down to needing Brunell to force throws, then it's really not the kind of game we're likely to win, and it's asking him to be something he's not.

Re: New Poster Making People Mad
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;226763]I guess you are right, after all he is still the starter and there are no plans to replace him this year anyway.

Really he is not the problem here. Everybody wanted Brunell's head after the first two games, then after the next two games it was all about breaking Gannon's record for consecutive completions in a game, then putting up 36 points on a number three defense. Then all of a sudden we get into another divisional game against the team that, by the way won our division last year, a team that has a pretty good defense themselves, in their house, after a bye week, with their backs against the wall, and we lose...Aaaah it's Brunell, and he sucks, blah, blah, blah.

It was not Brunell's fault we lost. It was the offensive line's inconsistencies, the secondary's poor coverage at times, the defensive line's lack of pressure on Eli, the missed field goals, suspect play calling at times. As a TEAM they need to get better, and as the team gets better so does Brunell.[/quote]

It's too easy to play the QB blame game and unfortunately alot of people fall for it.

Re: New Poster Making People Mad
 

Matty, a common misconception when people ask for a QB to be pulled is that it's because of the previous game. Brunell has been suspect going on 3 seasons now. He plays well in stretches (last season he played solid for a decent part of the season.) The first year was abysmal, and this year is heading that way without the abiration known as the Jags game.

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[quote=724Skinsfan;226764]That is a very good point, Schneed! In fact, in may be one of the best posts I've read since the season started. The offense can't rely on the defense to keep them in the game as it stands now. Saunders is going to have to open it up a little bit and take some chances. We have extremely talented playmakers and it needs to be a case of "you versus me, let's see who's better."[/quote]

Thank you for the compliment.

But I slightly disagree with your conclusions. Brunell always has been very good at avoiding costly mistakes. He had only 10 INTs last year as evidence.

Brunell loves to throw the ball away rather than force bad passes. He'd rather play the field position game and punt than take a chance and maybe get intercepted. If your defense plays like swiss cheese, then throwing the ball away and punting can get you into trouble because the opposing offense can just march the field and put up points. Then again, if you throw an INT, the opposing offense has a short field and has an even greater chance of putting up points.

How Brunell plays needs to depend upon the situation. If we're behind by 10 points with 7 minutes to play, I don't want to see him dumping the ball off, ever. But if we're up by 3 points, the last thing I want him doing is forcing a ball into tight coverage, risking an INT.

All this talk about swiss cheese defense should not be an indictment of Brunell's conservative style of play. It should be an indictment of our swiss cheese defense. We shouldn't expect Brunell to be any more than he is. He is a game manager, a QB with average talents and way-above-average decision making. You want to win a Super Bowl with him, don't expect him to play like Peyton Manning. Expect him to play like Trent Dilfer, and expect your defense to play like the 2000 Baltimore Ravens.

Re: New Poster Making People Mad
 

I don't expect Brunell to suddenly get younger legs, or become Peyton Manning. all i can ask of Brunell right now is too look over the MIDDLE somemore, especially when a game is on the line. don't you all agree?

even the most grizzled veterans have bad habits: Beldsoe, waits too long. Favre, forces it. etc. etc. Brunell is no different, and was clearly illustrated to be his penchant for throwing to the sidelines (in the valid attempt to avoid INTs). and this is throughout his career, not just since becoming a Skin.

well, it's made him easy to gameplan against, especially since the commonplace Cover-2 is tailormade for limiting outside passes to a tiny intermediate window (see Jax).

i know we don't have a possession receiver, and while Cooley kind of fits that role, its also only for intermediate throws. Brunell DOESN'T LIKE to throw deep except near the sidelines. Moss blowing past the MIDDLE of the Quarter defense of Dallas was SO unexpected, that they didn't CHANGE THE COVERAGE and allowed a 2nd TD!

is it wrong to ask for Brunell try more risky throws (incl. over the middle)when the game is on the line?

Re: New Poster Making People Mad
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;226765]Do you really want him throwing the ball up for grabs? Because that's what it sounds like you're suggesting. If only beating a D was that easy and only required the QB to 'try' throwing deep.

If it's not there he rarely will force the issue, that's just how he plays the game. If the game comes down to needing Brunell to force throws, then it's really not the kind of game we're likely to win, and it's asking him to be something he's not.[/QUOTE]

56 min. into a game we're losing? absolutely.

Re: New Poster Making People Mad
 

[quote=Mattyk72;226766]It's too easy to play the QB blame game and unfortunately alot of people fall for it.[/quote]

When the quarterback is the most visibly deficient skill position player on the field, he deserves most of the criticism for being unable to execute and get it to the playmakers. Mark Brunell has an elite running back, a pro bowl wide receiver, a potentially pro bowl tight end, and probably the best #3 receiver in the league at his disposal. That's more than Peyton Manning, Brady, McNabb, and just about every other quarterback in the league could hope to have.

But let's just keep making excuses. It's everyone but Brunell...

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[quote=Southpaw;226775]
But let's just keep making excuses. It's everyone but Brunell...[/quote]

I've never said that. Brunell did not play well last week... but who did?

If you can tell me with a straight face that Brunell was the only problem last week fine, I guess there's nothing left to talk about.

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[quote=Daseal;226771]Matty, a common misconception when people ask for a QB to be pulled is that it's because of the previous game. Brunell has been suspect going on 3 seasons now. He plays well in stretches (last season he played solid for a decent part of the season.) The first year was abysmal, and this year is heading that way without the abiration known as the Jags game.[/quote]

In 2005 Brunell was 14th in total yards, 13th in passer rating, 9th in total touchdowns, 11th in interceptions thrown

In 2004 Brunell only played nine games so you can't really assess his play fairly being thrown to the wolves in a new offense (for him) in the middle of the season.

Since 1995 he's had a passer rating every year between 82-92.

Everybody complains that all he does is dink and dunk, but if you compare his yards per pass attempt since he's been in the league (6.95) to peyton manning since he's been in the league (7.65), I guess Manning needs to go down the field more often and take chances too.

Let's get off the Brunell bashing...PLEASE!!!

Re: New Poster Making People Mad
 

[QUOTE=Chief X_Phackter;226779]Since 1995 he's had a passer rating every year between 82-92.

Everybody complains that all he does is dink and dunk, but if you compare his yards per pass attempt since he's been in the league (6.95) to peyton manning since he's been in the league (7.65), I guess Manning needs to go down the field more often and take chances too.[/QUOTE]

ancient stats don't apply here, and how many of those passing yards here were dinks and dunks turned into big gains by Moss and Cooley?

come on, this is the QB position we're talking about. when a team struggles, it's PART OF THE JOB to try and singlehandedly become the team's savior. it may not be fair to expect it, but its fair to wish for it.

Re: New Poster Making People Mad
 

Funny, whenever he plays well as he did against Houston and the Jags, that gets conveniently brushed aside.

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[quote=illdefined;226781]and how many of those passing yards here were dinks and dunks turned into big gains by Moss and Cooley? [/quote]

In that case we should be discrediting Joe Montana and Steve Young. All they did was dink and dunk and let Rice and company do all the work.

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[quote=Mattyk72;226778]If you can tell me with a straight face that Brunell was the only problem last week fine, I guess there's nothing left to talk about.[/quote]

As I've said, last week was a team effort, but Brunell's play is magnified because he's the quarterback. And my feelings towards Brunell is far more than a knee jerk reaction to last week. He's been on the lower side of inconsistent since the end of last season. And the fact that he played well against a stingy Jacksonville defense pisses me off even more, because it almost seems like he can physically get it done, but chooses not to if it's too risky.

Re: New Poster Making People Mad
 

[quote=Schneed10;226772] Expect him to play like Trent Dilfer, and expect your defense to play like the 2000 Baltimore Ravens.[/quote]

What happens when you're defense can't play like the 2000 Ravens? Something has to be done. Both the offense and the defense need to adapt to each other. I definitely don't want Brunell to turn into a chariot-riding, pigskin-slinging offensive maniac but he will have to realize that during a game if the defense is not performing well then the offense will have to re-evaluate their risk tolerance. Sometimes, in few and far between situations, you have to say "F*CK IT! WE'RE SCORING NOW!" Like the Greatest Game Since 1991 last year when he hurled the ball deep to Moss twice in the final 5 minutes. If he hadn't taken the high-risk chance then obviously the game would have been over with happier Cowboy fans.

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If i remember correctly, a lot of people still weren't happy with Brunell's dink/dunking in the Texans win. and the Jacksonville game was also notable because of it's YAC, not its bombs.

it's that one dimension lacking in Brunell's game that is constant and makes it easier for a team like the Giants, with it's terrible secondary, to gameplan for and stop.

using the entire recieving corps, and the WHOLE field, would greatly improve every aspect of this offense.

maybe the root cause for this is Brunell doesn't feel confident in his arm to safely overthrow/lead these routes without big risk of interception.

Re: New Poster Making People Mad
 

[quote=Southpaw;226786]As I've said, last week was a team effort, but Brunell's play is magnified because he's the quarterback. And my feelings towards Brunell is far more than a knee jerk reaction to last week. He's been on the lower side of inconsistent since the end of last season. And the fact that he played well against a stingy Jacksonville defense pisses me off even more, because it almost seems like he can physically get it done, but chooses not to if it's too risky.[/quote]

I think you're close to the point but you're missing the bigger picture.

What pisses me off is how this entire offense played a week after they dominated the Jags.

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[QUOTE=Mattyk72;226784]In that case we should be discrediting Joe Montana and Steve Young. All they did was dink and dunk and let Rice and company do all the work.[/QUOTE]

ouch another comparison to Montana? come on, i remember way too many Rice TD catches OVER HIS SHOULDER.

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[quote=Southpaw;226775]But let's just keep making excuses. It's everyone but Brunell...[/quote]

IMO, this statement is kind of asinine. It's not that I mean offense, it's just that I don't care how I sound.

Anywho, do you really think Brunell's going to get any better at this stage of his career? Asking an old dog to learn new tricks at this point doesn't make sense to me. He is what he is. The team has been designed to play a certain brand of football - geared towards what he does.

The way the team is built right now, we need the line to protect on offense, and the playmakers and Brunell will certainly do the rest. On defense, we have to have a top 10 defense that doesn't give up huge plays all the time. We have to be an attack style defense, and right now we're forced to sit back on our heels.

You're not going to change Brunell. Accept it. Win the way you're built to win.

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[quote=illdefined;226781]

come on, this is the QB position we're talking about. when a team struggles, it's PART OF THE JOB to try and singlehandedly become the team's savior. it may not be fair to expect it, but its fair to wish for it.[/quote]

No one can single handedly be the team's savior, that is why they line up eleven on each side of the ball. Wish in one hand, shit in the other and see which one gets filled.

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[quote=illdefined;226796]ouch another comparison to Montana? come on, i remember way too many Rice TD catches OVER HIS SHOULDER.[/quote]

Tell me that Rice wasn't Mr. YAC.

In fact if it weren't for Rice, I don't think we would even know what YAC is.

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[QUOTE=Chief X_Phackter;226799]No one can single handedly be the team's savior, that is why they line up eleven on each side of the ball. Wish in one hand, shit in the other and see which one gets filled.[/QUOTE]

sounds er, poetic. but there are plenty of teams that are effectively one or two people. see Philly w/o McNabb or Westbrook for ex. or the redskins w/o Portis etc etc.

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[QUOTE=Mattyk72;226801]Tell me that Rice wasn't Mr. YAC.

In fact if it weren't for Rice, I don't think we would even know what YAC is.[/QUOTE]

well, tell me Montana didn't heave it regularly. it's the ability to do both that opens up defenses. when you're two dimensional like Brunell (sidelines and dinks) you get schemed out of contention.

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My simple point was we shouldn't discredit Brunell for getting the ball into the hands of his playmakers no matter how far the ball travels through the air.

I see it far too often around here. Brunell gets bashed to death when things go wrong, and when things go well it's a very reluctant praise from some people, if any at all.

People are ridiculously biased towards the guy and I don't get it. Isn't he a Redskin? Isn't he our QB? I'm not saying he doesn't have his faults or he should be beyond criticism but damn, I just don't get where all the animosity and bias towards him comes from.

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I don't really remember Montana having the arm strength to heave it all that deep. He just managed to get the ball to somebody under impossible circumstances.
Anyway, I was just looking for the BENCH BRUNELL thread section. I know it must be around here somewhere

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there's no doubt we don't throw deep more than twice a game. which lets the other team stay somewhat closer to the line. the bigger problem is the chicken dance in the face of pressure :/ that doesn't seem to ever be going away.

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[quote=illdefined;226803]sounds er, poetic. but there are plenty of teams that are effectively one or two people. see Philly w/o McNabb or Westbrook for ex. or the redskins w/o Portis etc etc.[/quote]

If you go back and look at the Eagles last year they were missing a lot more than McNabb and Westbrook, and it seems to me that Portis was on the field for Washington against the Giants.

It's a team effort, bottom line. It's easy to blame it on one person, and there are instances where you can.

For example, take Arizona's game week before last. All Warner had to do was get the snap from the center and not fumble it. He fumbled it and they lost the game. That loss is Warners fault plain and simple. But the fact they were in the position to win the game at all wasn't because of one or two people.

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[QUOTE=Mattyk72;226765]Do you really want him throwing the ball up for grabs? Because that's what it sounds like you're suggesting. If only beating a D was that easy and only required the QB to 'try' throwing deep.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately beating our D is that easy.

Re: New Poster Making People Mad
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;226809]My simple point was we shouldn't discredit Brunell for getting the ball into the hands of his playmakers no matter how far the ball travels through the air.

I see it far too often around here. Brunell gets bashed to death when things go wrong, and when things go well it's a very reluctant praise from some people, if any at all.

People are ridiculously biased towards the guy and I don't get it. Isn't he a Redskin? Isn't he our QB? I'm not saying he doesn't have his faults or he should be beyond criticism but damn, I just don't get where all the animosity and bias towards him comes from.[/QUOTE]

well the problem last game was he couldn't get it in the hands of his playmakers enough. offensive line woes and the right defensive schemes attributed to all that, and those are based around his limits.

Brunell is a huge target simply because everyone knows his limits and know they're just getting bigger and bigger as each game rolls on. he's a QB in plain decline and doesn't represent the future of the franchise, so he's easy to scapegoat. he's 'in the way' of the hope that Jason Campbell represents, whose limitations aren't well known by everybody in the league already.

JC will obviously have his limits too, but in his case his youth at least allows for the potential to get better. Brunell on the other hand represents a dead end.

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[QUOTE=Chief X_Phackter;226826]If you go back and look at the Eagles last year they were missing a lot more than McNabb and Westbrook, and it seems to me that Portis was on the field for Washington against the Giants.[/QUOTE]

yeah and do you remember Philly's record? yes, Portis was on the field, and as bad as it was, he represented most of our offense that game. just remember our offense this season without him, it was even worse.

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[quote=CrazyCanuck;226827]Unfortunately beating our D is that easy.[/quote]

ouch, the truth hurts

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[quote=illdefined;226828]well the problem last game was he couldn't get it in the hands of his playmakers enough. offensive line woes and the right defensive schemes attributed to all that, and those are based around his limits.

Brunell is a huge target simply because everyone knows his limits and know they're just getting bigger and bigger as each game rolls on. he's a QB in plain decline and doesn't represent the future of the franchise, so he's easy to scapegoat. he's 'in the way' of the hope that Jason Campbell represents, whose limitations aren't well known by everybody in the league already.

JC will obviously have his limits too, but in his case his youth at least allows for the potential to get better. Brunell on the other hand represents a dead end.[/quote]

I'll be really curious to see how patient people are with Campbell.

The unknown is always very appealing simply because it's not yet tainted.

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[QUOTE=Mattyk72;226844]I'll be really curious to see how patient people are with Campbell.

The unknown is always very appealing simply because it's not yet tainted.[/QUOTE]

you said it.

but youth is such a powerful thing though, remember how much patience a lot of us had with Ramsey just because he was relatively young and had the 'potential' to overcome his problems. in contrast, we're just squeezing the very last drops out of Brunell and there's not a lot of hope represented in that.

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[quote=Mattyk72;226844]I'll be really curious to see how patient people are with Campbell.

The unknown is always very appealing simply because it's not yet tainted.[/quote]

they'd be more patient, because campbell can get better, while brunell can only get worse. plus there's a lot of case study on how the first 16 games or so for a QB can be thrown away as a learning curve.

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I was thinking back to Ramsey today and yeah we did have some patience with him, but that quickly faded too. Of course he didn't exactly help himself by making the same mistakes over and over.

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maybe in the organization hope faded, but on the WarPath? a lot of us are STILL waiting for Ramsey to get on his game!