Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[quote=irish;259658]Do you have any analysis on the TJ Duckett move in regard to the draft picks we used on that one?[/quote]

The Duckett trade is at the top of the list of the worst things our FO has done. That isn't just hindsight either.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[QUOTE=redsk1;259666]The Duckett trade is at the top of the list of the worst things our FO has done. That isn't just hindsight either.[/QUOTE]

Have patience, Matty is going to find some analysis that may tell us the skins really snookered everyone on this deal.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[quote=irish;259665]You maintained in a prior thread that all AS was brought in to do was tweak the current Gibbs O and modernize it. It was not a new O just a tweak of the old. I said that a 700 page playbook looked like a new O to me but you insisted it was just a tweak. I'm glad you now see the acquisition of AS for for what it is, a new O.[/quote]

It should have been a tweak from a philisophical point of view, an upgrade to the base system. I think the major adjustment has come in the players getting used to the way he calls games, and him getting accustomed to his players and learning their strengths and weaknesses. And the fact he had to scale back things for Brunell.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[quote=redsk1;259666]The Duckett trade is at the top of the list of the worst things our FO has done. That isn't just hindsight either.[/quote]

And if Portis was out for an extended period time, Betts did not blossom as he has, (which is a shock) what would you say to that? FO fu.........no good backup. Insurance in any form is EXPENSIVE. Try going through without it. And.............largely , if not totally, it goes unused. But.......we all have it

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[quote=TAFKAS;259655]But a lot of teams have that problem. Look how injuries hurt the Eagles last year. Look how the Giants' swoon this year coincided with guys getting hurt. Look how the Panthers buried themselves in a hole they are struggling to get out of now when they lost the first two games of the year without Steve Smith.[/quote]


SWOON????????? Who would have thought. Useage is EVERYTHING! YOU are the man!

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[quote=Mattyk72;259649]I'm stealing this post from another board to outline what we really gave up in trades in terms of the points system teams use for trades. I constantly see people saying we get ripped in trades (which isn't true), so here's some details:





source: [URL="http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184323"]EXTREMESKINS.com - Campbell Trade/McIntosh Trade[/URL][/quote]

I certainly appreciate the analysis, but it’s premised on the point system as being an accurate measure of draft value, which I disagree with based on your following:
“Note: the 2006 picks are valued as a round later because they were future picks. Consider it interest.”
So in essence what this is saying is that if you want to spend next year’s draft picks this year, then they’re worth less today. This sums up our cap mgmt. & use of draft picks – burn em now even if it decreases the value we have next year. Simply put, we are paying the “interest” you refer to, to other teams.
There’s a time & place for such trades. As I mentioned earlier I thought the JC trade was a good one because we needed to get a young qb & start developing him asap. On the other hand, was the Loyd trade worth a 3rd & 4th? Add to that he got 1st rnd. Bonus $ & will eat a lot of cap space for years, only to be outplayed by James Thrash. I’m not trying to bash Gibbs & co. for their moves in hindsight. As I said before, they’ve made some wise fa signings. I just feel like the spend now approach to draft picks is catching up w/us & we don’t have nearly enough to show for it. If in 04 Gibbs had made a commitment to keeping all our picks plus signing fa’s along the way, this team could be in great shape. We could actually do both; sign fa’s & draft well.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[QUOTE=irish;259665]You maintained in a prior thread that all AS was brought in to do was tweak the current Gibbs O and modernize it. It was not a new O just a tweak of the old. I said that a 700 page playbook looked like a new O to me but you insisted it was just a tweak. I'm glad you now see the acquisition of AS for for what it is, a new O.[/QUOTE]

I would argue that is it simply a more extensive and felxible version of the old O.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;259670]It should have been a tweak from a philisophical point of view, an upgrade to the base system. I think the major adjustment has come in the players getting used to the way he calls games, and him getting accustomed to his players and learning their strengths and weaknesses. And the fact he had to scale back things for Brunell.[/QUOTE]

I agree that it should have been but it wasnt.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;259601]I'm talking about since Gibbs came back.

The players we aquired in 2004 were the foundation of the playoff run in '05.[/QUOTE]

Ok, since Gibbs came back the Skins are 20-25.

That playoff run in '05 looks more and more like a fluke with each loss in '06. Read Jason La Canfora's take on the 5-game winning streak last season here:

[url=http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2006/12/a_tale_of_two_teams.html#more]A Tale of Two Teams - Redskins Insider[/url]

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

Fluke my ass. Winning 6 games in a row in this league, 3 against division opponents, isn't a fluke and isn't something anyone should have to apologize for.

Last year things clicked at the right time. The offense leaned heavily on the ground game and played old style Redskins football, and the defense was playing lights out.

There's not much use to compare them to this year's team. Different offense, different players, and different circumstances.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

Come on guys injuries really killed us this year more then the free agency, CP is still our touchdown leader, now what does that tell you. Sure AA was a bust but Carter is starting to pick it up and ARE is plenty good. The free agency cant make a team worse that is almost a luaghable concept. The guys form the draft that are really standing out in your eyes were were lucky as hell picks that could have gone either way and had a better chance of going south. Colsten was 3rd to last guy picked in the draft who ever saw him being such a break out wide reciever? NO was prolly filling space with him and got lucky. Reggie Bush, a #2 draft pick, would do nothign for this team. Hell the #1 draft pick is useless, how you think Houston feels right about now? The fact of the matter is that there were no great defensive drafts that would have strengthened our defense which is where we are lacking. Although our free agency choices were bad, they are not what made this team worse.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;260047]Fluke my ass. Winning 6 games in a row in this league, 3 against division opponents, isn't a fluke and isn't something anyone should have to apologize for.

Last year things clicked at the right time. The offense leaned heavily on the ground game and played old style Redskins football, and the defense was playing lights out.

There's not much use to compare them to this year's team. Different offense, different players, and different circumstances.[/QUOTE]

It WAS a fluke -- there are asterisks all over that 5-0 run. And that foundation you talked about? What happened to it this year? Don't give me the injury crap. That's such a weak cop-out. We had one starter go down for the year. [U]ONE.[/U] And we still had him for eight games.

That players that make up this "foundation" you speak of are still here -- there were only additions to it; ones that you defend, I might add. But here's the thing, if it's one thing the 2006 season is telling us, it's that the "foundation" had serious cracks in it. The one free agent pickup we can give Gibbs credit for is Antonio Brown -- he was the [B]sole[/B] reason there was a playoff appearance. Without his return against the Cards, all of Portis' yards, and all of the stellar defensive performances mean absolutely squat. And the front office couldn't wait to get rid of his ass.

4-9 Matty. Remember that. And we're going nowhere but south.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;260081]It WAS a fluke -- there are asterisks all over that 5-0 run. And that foundation you talked about? What happened to it this year? Don't give me the injury crap. That's such a weak cop-out. We had one starter go down for the year. [U]ONE.[/U] And we still had him for eight games.

That players that make up this "foundation" you speak of are still here -- there were only additions to it; ones that you defend, I might add. But here's the thing, if it's one thing the 2006 season is telling us, it's that the "foundation" had serious cracks in it. The one free agent pickup we can give Gibbs credit for is Antonio Brown -- he was the [B]sole[/B] reason there was a playoff appearance. Without his return against the Cards, all of Portis' yards, and all of the stellar defensive performances mean absolutely squat. And the front office couldn't wait to get rid of his ass.

4-9 Matty. Remember that. And we're going nowhere but south.[/QUOTE]

You could find asterisks all over several winning streaks throughout history with many different teams. But whatever, that's your opinion that it was a fluke. I won't belabor the point.

However, "Antonio Brown is the sole reason there was a playoff appearance"??? C'mon. You can't be serious? You really have that narrow, close-minded, pessimistic view of things?

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

the 5-0 might not have been a fluke, but it is really killing us now. Makes the coaches and FO feel that we can still put it all together with what we have LIKE LAST YEAR, which really killed our progression this year, especially with campbell and mcintosh.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

Antonio Brown was the sole reason for the playoff run??

Ok. If you really believe that this conversation is dead.

That's one of the worst takes I've ever heard.

You can pick the entire season apart play by play and say if it wasn't for this play, or if it wasn't for that play there would have been no playoffs.

It's totally ridiculous to boil it down to one play and proclaim that was the sole reason. Totally ridiculous.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

People who are foolishly under the impression that the Redskins were world-beaters last year don't like to hear it, but yes -- If Brown doesn't take that return, then we lose the Cardinal game, and then they don't control their own destiny. Of course, he did make it, so you can't take that away. But it does prove how paper thin the strength of our team was last season.

And we can confirm this by their performance this year. Think about it:

We're a gust of wind and a coin toss away from 2-11.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

Last year's team and this year's team are different, you can't make direct comparisons that because we stink this year, we probably weren't that good last year in hindsight.

If that's the case how about other teams in the league that have also failed to live up to expectations based on what they accomplished last year.

Should we also assume that these teams actually stunk last year because they're not doing as well this year?

Should the Steelers' Super Bowl win carry some tarnish because of what they're doing this year?

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;260150]

Should the Steelers' Super Bowl win carry some tarnish because of what they're doing this year?[/QUOTE]

Very good point! This happens more often than not in the NFL.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

a lot of people are saying the steelers superbowl season was a fluke. But I am not saying that, they were very good. But many say that they got very very lucky.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[QUOTE=The Zimmermans;260168]a lot of people are saying the steelers superbowl season was a fluke. But I am not saying that, they were very good. But many say that they got very very lucky.[/QUOTE]

They did get lucky. But Luck is a very important factor in winning the super bowl. No luck equals no super bowl win.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;260131]Antonio Brown was the sole reason for the playoff run??

Ok. If you really believe that this conversation is dead.

That's one of the worst takes I've ever heard.

You can pick the entire season apart play by play and say if it wasn't for this play, or if it wasn't for that play there would have been no playoffs.

It's totally ridiculous to boil it down to one play and proclaim that was the sole reason. Totally ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

I don't see how Daseal could have said the quality of this site has gone down when we have such insightful analysis as Antonio Brown was the sole reason we made the playoffs last year.

Here I thought it was Nick Novak hitting the game winner against Seattle, Santana catching two touchdowns in the final four minutes at Dallas, Clinton Portis scoring three touchdowns against San Francsisco. Chris Cooley with nearly 800 yards receiving, Mark Brunell with 23 touchdown passes, Sean Taylor scooping up a fumble and returning it for a touchdown against Philadelphia, Philip Daniels with four sacks against the Cowboys...here I thought it was the team. Silly me, it was all thanks to Antonio Brown.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

Antonio Brown haha, that guy was a fumbled a game away for us last year. Rock or Randel El might have returned that for 6 as well.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[quote=TAFKAS;260181]I don't see how Daseal could have said the quality of this site has gone down when we have such insightful analysis as Antonio Brown was the sole reason we made the playoffs last year.

Here I thought it was Nick Novak hitting the game winner against Seattle, Santana catching two touchdowns in the final four minutes at Dallas, Clinton Portis scoring three touchdowns against San Francsisco. Chris Cooley with nearly 800 yards receiving, Mark Brunell with 23 touchdown passes, Sean Taylor scooping up a fumble and returning it for a touchdown against Philadelphia, Philip Daniels with four sacks against the Cowboys...here I thought it was the team. Silly me, it was all thanks to Antonio Brown.[/quote]

I'm waiting on a text from the Schwab for a ruling!

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[QUOTE=MattyK]Ok. If you really believe that this conversation is dead.[/QUOTE]

And yet we’re still having it.


[QUOTE=TAFKAS;260181]I don't see how Daseal could have said the quality of this site has gone down when we have such insightful analysis as Antonio Brown was the sole reason we made the playoffs last year.[/QUOTE]

If you don’t think Antonio Brown’s TD return was as pivotal a play as me, fine. We can disagree. I happen to think it was the single biggest play that saved the 2005 season. Forgive me if that analysis is “insightful” enough for you.

You don’t think the fortunes of a team can come down to one play? You don’t think Lavar Arrington’s interception return for a touchdown against Carolina in 2001 didn’t provide the spark for what was the biggest turnaround in NFL history? Many have said that those two touchdown catches by Santana Moss were what ultimately buried the Cowboys last year, and sent them into a rut from which they never recovered.

In a game where emotions run high and momentum can swing on just one key block, a sack, or an interception, you never know which single snap will ignite the players into a fury that starts a winning streak, or sends them swirling down the toilet bowl.

So yes, I stand by my statement. Sometimes, it does come down to one play.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

The issue I have with your statement Beem is that you imply (and maybe I'm missing the point completely) that only the Redskins have that one pivotal play. But every team has them. And the arguement can me made that with such a relatively short season, each game is just a collection of pivotal plays. Except for the very very top teams in each conference, the rest of the teams are fighting for those final playoff spots and getting there making a pivotal play in a game here and stopping the opponent from making one in a play there. Whoever has made the most and given up the least wins.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;260262]The issue I have with your statement Beem is that you imply (and maybe I'm missing the point completely) that only the Redskins have that one pivotal play.[/QUOTE]

No -- in my very last post, I mentioned the Cowboys, who's fortunes, I believe, turned on those two TD passes to Moss.

Of course it's not just the Redskins. Many teams throughout the league have pivotal plays that can make or break their season.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;260264]No -- in my very last post, I mentioned the Cowboys, who's fortunes, I believe, turned on those two TD passes to Moss.

Of course it's not just the Redskins. Many teams throughout the league have pivotal plays that can make or break their season.[/QUOTE]

Ok, so then is the NFL just primarily comprised of fluke teams?

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;260275]Ok, so then is the NFL just primarily comprised of fluke teams?[/QUOTE]


I don't think he's saying that. I think he's saying teams won't make it without luck, and those pivotal plays help a teams momentum. If they go against you, it hurts your momentum.
There is no such thing as a fluke team. Either they perform, or they don't. What makes a good team, a great one, are those plays and luck.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;260275]Ok, so then is the NFL just primarily comprised of fluke teams?[/QUOTE]

Define "fluke team". Define "fluke" plays.

Pivotal plays do not necessarily mean "fluke" plays.

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;260277]I don't think he's saying that. I think he's saying teams won't make it without luck, and those pivotal plays help a teams momentum. If they go against you, it hurts your momentum.
There is no such thing as a fluke team. Either they perform, or they don't. What makes a good team, a great one, are those plays and luck.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. I can agree with that. And I understand that. "Antonio Brown is the sole reason we made they playoffs" I just don't see how that makes any sense.

But whatever, it's a waste of everyone's time to keep belaboring this point. I think Beem is wrong, he thinks I'm wrong. I say tomayto, he says tomahto....

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;260329]Fair enough. I can agree with that. And I understand that. "Antonio Brown is the sole reason we made they playoffs" I just don't see how that makes any sense.

But whatever, it's a waste of everyone's time to keep belaboring this point. I think Beem is wrong, he thinks I'm wrong. I say tomayto, he says tomahto....[/QUOTE]

Well that's crazy!!!


Everyone KNOWS it's tomayto!!! :D

Re: A Tale of Two Teams...
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;259603]I really think the issue is more with scouting than whether or not we have someone who is a "general manager"[/QUOTE]

I think that's a great point. As the leader of the team, JG is dependent upon the input he receives from scouts and coaches. If that group feeds him bad info, and he trusts their judgement, then there is not much to stop him from making an unfortunate choice. The only problem I have is that after his scouts screw the pooch multiple times, get rid of them. I think loyalty can really hurt you and it seems as though Gibbs is one of the most, if not the most, loyal people in the game.