Re: Saddam hangs
 

[quote=Schneed10;265291]This is exactly right. These two groups are similar to the Palestinians and Israelis in how deeply rooted their hatred is. They're in civil war. Saddam's execution may fan the flames for a brief period, but in the end, they're simply looking to kill each other because they hate one another.

And whether or not this will increase sectarian violence should not be a reason to not execute Saddam. If anything, Iraq needs a sense of justice and order. You kill thousands in cold blood, you get the death penalty. People need to see justice being served or they're going to totally lose faith in the Iraqi government altogether.[/quote]

Hm, ok I accept your point. I still believe that any kind of death sentence is ridiculous and barbaric. As a progressive society a hanging or a death sentence is terrible. I still can't believe this would even happen to a political leader.

The judgment was also reached by the majority sect, which Sadamm is not a part of. The sentence was determined by a bias party.

I dont think I life time imprisonment would be viewed as an injustice, at least to educated folk.

Like Matty I think a death sentence is morally wrong, regardless of the criminal. It only encourages that kind of action by the government, by showcasing it(especially with a hanging). The government would instill more confidence with its people if it did not rush to hang him one minute before the start of their religious holiday. It would also have a good image if it did not hang people like they did in the 17th century.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

My random thoughts on the death penalty:

#1 I really truly think that there are legitimate arguments for all sides as our death penalty system is very flawed, but IMO the death penalty is justifiable for certain people.

#2 IMHO you cannot argue that the death penalty is always wrong unless you are also a pacifist and think that ALL war is wrong and immoral.

#3 If killing a murderer "sends the wrong message," does imprisoning a kidnapper send a wrong message too?

#4 I am confused why many death penalty opponents oppose the death penalty on moral grounds and simultaneously argue "if you really want to punish a criminal, send them to prison for life. Living in prison for life without any possibility of parole is about as cruel as it gets." I'm not sure which is more cruel, the death penalty or life in prison without the possibility of parole and the high probability of repeated sexual assault.

PS - Thus far the discussion has been good and civil, but if immature posts appear I think this thread is going to be locked in a hurry.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;265472]Hm, ok I accept your point. I still believe that any kind of death sentence is ridiculous and barbaric. As a progressive society a hanging or a death sentence is terrible. I still can't believe this would even happen to a political leader.

The judgment was also reached by the majority sect, which Sadamm is not a part of. The sentence was determined by a bias party.

I dont think I life time imprisonment would be viewed as an injustice, at least to educated folk.

Like Matty I think a death sentence is morally wrong, regardless of the criminal. It only encourages that kind of action by the government, by showcasing it(especially with a hanging). The government would instill more confidence with its people if it did not rush to hang him one minute before the start of their religious holiday. It would also have a good image if it did not hang people like they did in the 17th century.[/QUOTE]

Is your concern more so with the method of execution? And the fact that it was televised?

Re: Saddam hangs
 

Personally, I don't care about the death penalty. There are some that deserve it, some that don't. I do think life in prison without the possibility of parole is a harsher sentence, unless that individual likes living in prison, which is probably highly doubtful.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[quote=TAFKAS;265489]Is your concern more so with the method of execution? And the fact that it was televised?[/quote]

I think that is a huge factor for me, but either way I would rather not see a political leader, with pockets of influence be put to death. I do feel it would trigger more violence than normal. Also in this day and age, I just feel the death penalty is wrong. I do not support Virginia and its usage of the death penalty.

As for chances of parole, you can always put a prisoner away for life no parole. That solves that issue in my mind. I do understand a concern was that he could be broken out of jail by supporters, but I think that is over exaggerated by those who made this decision.

And I do not generally support war, only as a last resort. I guess that makes me a pacifist, but I feel that term has a negative connotation.

For this ruling the choice was made by his enemies, not a fair and balanced jury. I know he was a terrible person, but there have been worst political leaders that have gotten off with nothing. He just deserved life in jail.

Honestly what was gained out of this? A message? I think him being jailed has a huge message too. How does this give the Iraqis more confidence in their government? It just shows the bias towards the majority, and that hanging is acceptable as a general procedure. Killing is just answered with more killing. How is the government not like the terrorists by releasing a video of a hanging? No matter how bad your enemy is, you cannot sink down to their level, and the government just did that. I guess I would not have this much of a problem with the ruling if it wasnt a hanging, but I would not support it either way.

Seeing him hang really gives nothing back to me. Shows me their government is not modern enough to deal with the issue in a proper way. It shows the government is only going to cause more problems in the future now the majority is in power. He kills tons of people, but killing him doesn't solve the problem. The problem is this deeply rooted sectarian violence, that goes way beyond him.

Watch for more bloodshed....

Re: Saddam hangs
 

Another point that hasn't been mentioned is that, as long as Saddam remained alive and in prison, he would be a rallying point for his supporters and would remain a threat to return.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

This thread was a really good idea.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;265486]My random thoughts on the death penalty:

#1 I really truly think that there are legitimate arguments for all sides as our death penalty system is very flawed, but IMO the death penalty is justifiable for certain people.

#2 IMHO you cannot argue that the death penalty is always wrong unless you are also a pacifist and think that ALL war is wrong and immoral.

#3 If killing a murderer "sends the wrong message," does imprisoning a kidnapper send a wrong message too?

#4 I am confused why many death penalty opponents oppose the death penalty on moral grounds and simultaneously argue "if you really want to punish a criminal, send them to prison for life. Living in prison for life without any possibility of parole is about as cruel as it gets." I'm not sure which is more cruel, the death penalty or life in prison without the possibility of parole and the high probability of repeated sexual assault.

PS - Thus far the discussion has been good and civil, but if immature posts appear I think this thread is going to be locked in a hurry.[/quote]

The Sheriff is all about the ordered lists today!

My own list:
#1 You are right - it's hard to ever argue in absolutes. However, this is a moral line, where some people feel that the line just can't be crossed. When you argue an absolute position on moral grounds, you can never emperically justify the marginal cases.

#2 Again, absolute positions require faith for the marginal cases.

#3 C’mon, you went to law school, so you know the difference. The death penalty is a final, unequivocal step – there is no appeal after the fact. That’s the key difference, not the nature of the crime being equivalent to the penalty.

#4 Again, I don’t think it’s about being cruel – I think it’s about drawing a moral line in the sand and saying, “If we go there, we are no better than them.”

All that said, I think you and I have the same opinion about the death penalty – it is a punishment that has its purpose and, when used judiciously, has a preventive effect on crime. There is, however, a very good argument for the other side (and I do recognize that you realize this – I just think some of your arguments trivialize the anti-capital punishment argument a bit).

Re: Saddam hangs
 

I think all convicted to the death sentence should be put to death as efficiently and quickly as Saddam. There are hundreds of people that have sucked off the teet of the tax payers for too many years for no good reason.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

Without the death penalty there is no "Prison Break"....yeah, chew on that for a minute

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[quote=hooskins;265510]I think that is a huge factor for me, but either way I would rather not see a political leader, with pockets of influence be put to death. I do feel it would trigger more violence than normal. Also in this day and age, I just feel the death penalty is wrong. I do not support Virginia and its usage of the death penalty.

As for chances of parole, you can always put a prisoner away for life no parole. That solves that issue in my mind. I do understand a concern was that he could be broken out of jail by supporters, but I think that is over exaggerated by those who made this decision.

And I do not generally support war, only as a last resort. I guess that makes me a pacifist, but I feel that term has a negative connotation.

For this ruling the choice was made by his enemies, not a fair and balanced jury. I know he was a terrible person, but there have been worst political leaders that have gotten off with nothing. He just deserved life in jail.

Honestly what was gained out of this? A message? I think him being jailed has a huge message too. How does this give the Iraqis more confidence in their government? It just shows the bias towards the majority, and that hanging is acceptable as a general procedure. Killing is just answered with more killing. How is the government not like the terrorists by releasing a video of a hanging? No matter how bad your enemy is, you cannot sink down to their level, and the government just did that. I guess I would not have this much of a problem with the ruling if it wasnt a hanging, but I would not support it either way.

Seeing him hang really gives nothing back to me. Shows me their government is not modern enough to deal with the issue in a proper way. It shows the government is only going to cause more problems in the future now the majority is in power. He kills tons of people, but killing him doesn't solve the problem. The problem is this deeply rooted sectarian violence, that goes way beyond him.

Watch for more bloodshed....[/quote]

oh brother........:doh:

Re: Saddam hangs
 

Hooskins...do you not beleive in the death penalty...and if so, why not?

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;265652]Without the death penalty there is no "Prison Break"....yeah, chew on that for a minute[/QUOTE]

I chewed, and I don't care.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;264845]I meant we as in human beings.

It's just a shame really... killing him isn't going to right the many wrongs he committed, it's only going to add fuel to the fire.

Thou shall not kill shouldn't have exceptions.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely right Matty. It's interesting to look at the countries which still allow the death penalty. We are pretty much alone amongst most developed nations in practicing capital punishment. Also, if you look at the other countries still actively executing prisoners, it's some pretty questionable company.

[url=http://www.religioustolerance.org/executh.htm]Countries that have abandoned the use of capital punishment - the death penalty[/url]

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;264845]I meant we as in human beings.

It's just a shame really... killing him isn't going to right the many wrongs he committed, it's only going to add fuel to the fire.

Thou shall not kill shouldn't have exceptions.[/QUOTE]

Presumably you are referring to the Sixth Commandment of the Hebrew Ten Commandments. A more accurate translation of the Hebrew is "Thou shall not murder," making an obvious distinction between any killing at all and unlawful killing.

I think executing people because it is financially expedient is a pretty crummy rationale. Money shouldn't be a factor in deciding whether someone lives or dies. Making someone be accountable for their actions should be the motivation.

One of the biggest problems with modern society, in my humble opinion, is a lack of accountability. No one is responsible or accountable for what they do. If you murder, torture, rape and abuse an entire country for decades, you ought to be held accountable, and I see no problem with death being the penalty for that behavior.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[quote=hooskins;265472]Hm, ok I accept your point. I still believe that any kind of death sentence is ridiculous and barbaric. As a progressive society a hanging or a death sentence is terrible. I still can't believe this would even happen to a political leader.[/quote]

First point I have to make is that these kind of stances are based on our personalities and our values at our very core. No amount of arguing could ever persuade the other side. Some just believe killing is always wrong, no matter what. And some just believe killing is justified in some situations. Just like I could never convince you, you could never convince me. Some see Saddam die and think "that's horrible." It isn't because you're defending him, it's just that you see killing as always wrong, and that's a bigger value for you than a sense of justice (which is totally fine). Me on the other hand, I see him die and I cheer. Literally. His death literally makes me happier and feel better about the world I live in. It isn't that I'm evil, it's just that I place I higher value on justice. It's a different strokes for different folks thing, so it needs to be said that when arguing these things, a lot of the opinions go to our very core, and can never be changed. It's just good to understand the other perspective.

[quote=hooskins;265472]The judgment was also reached by the majority sect, which Sadamm is not a part of. The sentence was determined by a bias party. [/quote]

This part I have a beef with though. The Iraqi government is now comprised of representatives from each of the sects. It just so happens that now the government's majority is representative of the country's majority. Saddam was a minority ruler who oppressed the majority.

This situation is no different from a Republican President and Republican Congress appointing right-leaning judges to the Supreme Court. The party in charge generally gets its way.

The majority sect should have the biggest courtroom representation. After all, they represent the Iraqi people. If Saddam were to be tried only by Bath Party members, then why the heck doesn't the Bath Party just create it's own nation? That's essentially an argument for secession from the union and is the main cause for Iraq's civil war. All Iraqi's need to learn to accept a fair and balanced democratic government, even if it means they'll be the minority, as long as their interests are represented, they can take up their issues in a non-violent manner.

Of course, complicating matters is the fact that Iraq is not a secular government. Because religion plays a role, different sects are going to feel much more passionate. They'll never be successful unless they leave religion out (good luck on that).

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[quote=Schneed10;265793]First point I have to make is that these kind of stances are based on our personalities and our values at our very core. No amount of arguing could ever persuade the other side. Some just believe killing is always wrong, no matter what. And some just believe killing is justified in some situations. Just like I could never convince you, you could never convince me. Some see Saddam die and think "that's horrible." It isn't because you're defending him, it's just that you see killing as always wrong, and that's a bigger value for you than a sense of justice (which is totally fine). Me on the other hand, I see him die and I cheer. Literally. His death literally makes me happier and feel better about the world I live in. It isn't that I'm evil, it's just that I place I higher value on justice. It's a different strokes for different folks thing, so it needs to be said that when arguing these things, a lot of the opinions go to our very core, and can never be changed. It's just good to understand the other perspective.



This part I have a beef with though. The Iraqi government is now comprised of representatives from each of the sects. It just so happens that now the government's majority is representative of the country's majority. Saddam was a minority ruler who oppressed the majority.

This situation is no different from a Republican President and Republican Congress appointing right-leaning judges to the Supreme Court. The party in charge generally gets its way.

The majority sect should have the biggest courtroom representation. After all, they represent the Iraqi people. If Saddam were to be tried only by Bath Party members, then why the heck doesn't the Bath Party just create it's own nation? That's essentially an argument for secession from the union and is the main cause for Iraq's civil war. All Iraqi's need to learn to accept a fair and balanced democratic government, even if it means they'll be the minority, as long as their interests are represented, they can take up their issues in a non-violent manner.

Of course, complicating matters is the fact that Iraq is not a secular government. Because religion plays a role, different sects are going to feel much more passionate. They'll never be successful unless they leave religion out (good luck on that).[/quote]


I can agree to disagree, you are absolutely right about how most people have positions that will change in issues like these. Like I have mentioned before, I feel the death penalty only has negatives results(see other posts).


As for your beef, yeah the legislature is made up of equal representation, but I do not think that is the case for the judicial system, but I am not positive. And since religion is involved in politics, they will never be successful. I can agree with that.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

The smartest thing any government can do is seperate church and state. The entire middle east is governed by some sort of theocracy, and It's a dead end concept.

I'm curious to see how the new government in Iraq evolves...

It could follow the more egypt-esque style government, or go straight to the constitutional theocracy that Iran has. I'm really pulling for the former.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[quote=hooskins;265807]As for your beef, yeah the legislature is made up of equal representation, but I do not think that is the case for the judicial system, [B]but I am not positive[/B]. And since religion is involved in politics, they will never be successful. I can agree with that.[/quote]

Well the judicial system is comprised of a bunch of judges appointed and approved by the legislature. If you're suggesting that said judge would allow his sectarian bias to affect his judgment during Saddam's trial, then you're really saying you have absolutely no faith in the Iraq government's ability to appoint a competent judge.

Besides, I don't see how you can accuse the judge of being biased without really knowing what's going on. It's not like it would be a very hard case to make against Saddam Hussein. Fact: he killed thousands of defenseless people, including women and children. Exactly what did the judge do to stack the deck against him?? I see no evidence of bias during the trial (and I think you should have some evidence before you start accusing the judicial system of bias, because those are some strong words).

In your post history in this thread, I see a lot of speaking out of turn. You seem to be making claims of bias, and then turning around and saying things like the bolded part above. Let's go on what we know, OK?

Re: Saddam hangs
 

Our retarded government should have handed him to The International Court. Sadly we are more inept than we [URL="http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/01/02/saddam.execution/index.html"]realize[/URL].

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[QUOTE=RobH4413;265842]The smartest thing any government can do is seperate church and state. The entire middle east is governed by some sort of theocracy, and It's a dead end concept.

I'm curious to see how the new government in Iraq evolves...

It could follow the more egypt-esque style government, or go straight to the constitutional theocracy that Iran has. I'm really pulling for the former.[/QUOTE]


The middle east is run by crooks of Benny Hinn caliber. They break more Islamic law in a day than most people do in a life time. There are a gazillion princes, most of whom spend lots of money boozing up and chasing women. Their moral compass pointed at the direction of self preservation and that's just the way our government likes it.

As for Egypt, well, what a shit hole it is. I have lived their for bit and let me tell you, the poor are very poor and the rich are very rich and the gap is getting wider. Bribery is a common theme in most transactions not to mention the fact that Egypt has had two presidents in the last 37 years. The current president, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosni_Mubarak"]Hosni Mubarak[/URL], being in office for 26 years.

Oh and there was a recent scandal were Mubarak tried to "pass" the presidency to his son. Kinda easy thing to do when your party controls the government and you have been scratching balls all your life. The least the party could do is massage your son's balls just a tad bit. One thing is definitely clear though and that is Mubarak is very clever and knows how to scratch American balls. God help anyone modeling their government after Egypt.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[quote=Mattyk72;265348]I meant it in a moral way of speaking, I'm not trying to get all religious because believe me, I'm about as non-religious as you can get.

I just don't think killing in any manner should be justified.[/quote]
I agree with you Matty... I think killing them also lets them off the hook.. keeping a killer in an 8 ft cell forever never seeing daylight is far crueler...But to me killing is killing ....And I just can't see legalized killing or murder.... But I have no sympathy for sadam's soul....

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;265516]Another point that hasn't been mentioned is that, as long as Saddam remained alive and in prison, he would be a rallying point for his supporters and would remain a threat to return.[/quote]
That's why I can maybe understand hanging his ass so quickly as an exception...

Re: Saddam hangs
 

I would waste no more thought or space in my head. He gave no quarter, and recieved none. fair deal

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;264804]Thirdly, I'm all for capital punishment. I'm not interested in paying taxes to feed death row inmates here in the states for the rest of their lives.[/QUOTE]
I'm a few days late on this one, so someone else probably already said it, but it actually costs more on average to execute someone than it does to keep them locked up for the rest of their life (mainly because of the extensive appeals process).

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[QUOTE=BigSKINBauer;264886]It costs a lot more to execute someone than it does to keep them in jail for a lifetime[/QUOTE]
I should have known someone like the BSB would have been all over that one.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[QUOTE=railcon56;266453]I agree with you Matty... I think killing them also lets them off the hook.. keeping a killer in an 8 ft cell forever never seeing daylight is far crueler...But to me killing is killing ....And I just can't see legalized killing or murder.... But I have no sympathy for sadam's soul....[/QUOTE]

I'm honestly not trying to crack open the proverbial "Can O' Worms" here, but what do you (and/or Matty) think about killing purely in self defense of yourself or your family?

I'm really just curious if when you say that no killing should be legalized, do you include killing out of self defense? In no way am I relating the Hussein execution to self-defense, this is just a separate but related question.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[QUOTE=mheisig;266863]I'm honestly not trying to crack open the proverbial "Can O' Worms" here, but what do you (and/or Matty) think about killing purely in self defense of yourself or your family?

I'm really just curious if when you say that no killing should be legalized, do you include killing out of self defense? In no way am I relating the Hussein execution to self-defense, this is just a separate but related question.[/QUOTE]

I hear this line of questioning and argument all the time. Self preservation is in the fabric of our being. If it came down to you or my family and I going six feet under you best say your prayers son. State sanctioned killing and killing in the process of defending ones self are mutually exclusive. I mean what's the rational behind state sanctioned killing besides saving the state inmate related expenses (which by the way can be recouped and then some if inmates were forced to work)?

Re: Saddam hangs
 

Unfortunately, our system is so F'd up, you cannot force them to work. Additionally, private companies have sued the prison system because of displaced jobs in the private sector being taken by the prison system. Hmmmmmmmmmmm, wonder whats wrong with this pic?

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[QUOTE=saden1;266864]I hear this line of questioning and argument all the time. Self preservation is in the fabric of our being. If it came down to you or my family and I going six feet under you best say your prayers son. State sanctioned killing and killing in the process of defending ones self are mutually exclusive. I mean what's the rational behind state sanctioned killing besides saving the state inmate related expenses (which by the way can be recouped and then some if inmates were forced to work)?[/QUOTE]

If killing in self-defense is justified for the individual then it is also justified for the state as our corporate being. The state is us and we are the state, and attacks upon our corporate being are, in fact, attacks upon us individually regardless of whether those attacks are from external threats or from internal ones.

State sanctioned killing has always been a form of civil self-defense. In a war this is fairly obvious - for example, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was a pretty clear cut indication that we needed to kill in order to defend our corporate being. Similarly, killing those who attack the social fabric, through the murder of other members of the society, could be seen as a form of societal self-defense. Both by permanently removing those who attack that society and by deterring others from the same, the State asks to secure the safety of its members (yes, I know - because it is so abused and arbitrary in its application, the death penalty as currently practiced in the US has practically no deterrent effect. I suggest to you, however, that a swift and consistent execution of those found guilty of first degree murder would indeed have deterrent value. It would also be damn bloody).

Just so you know, I generally oppose the death penalty for a host of different reasons (both from an ethical and practical point of view) but believe that, as someone has said before, legitimate, reasonable arguments exist on both sides of the fence.

Unfortunately, this is one of those topics that generally causes reason to head out the door (the discussion so far has been amazingly level-headed, congrats to all for not letting it degenerate).

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[QUOTE=saden1;266864]I hear this line of questioning and argument all the time. Self preservation is in the fabric of our being. If it came down to you or my family and I going six feet under you best say your prayers son. State sanctioned killing and killing in the process of defending ones self are mutually exclusive. I mean what's the rational behind state sanctioned killing besides saving the state inmate related expenses (which by the way can be recouped and then some if inmates were forced to work)?[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't say they are mutually exclusive. I think JoeRedskin explained quite eloquently how the two are related.

Even though I support the death penalty, I would draw a distinction between self defense carried out under exigent circumstances and defense of the State by carrying out the death penalty.

Self defense taken against a present threat posing imminent danger to myself or others would be something like a guy busting down my door and waving a gun at my family or, in my line of work, someone pulling a gun on me at a traffic stop. I've never heard someone argue against killing in that situation, unless they are a true pacifist.

I think you could argue that execution is done in defense of the country, but it's not done to eliminate an imminent threat. Once the person is behind bars the immediate danger is eliminated. Defense of the country in cases like our response to Pearl Harbor is certainly self defense, and certainly done to face an imminent threat.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

Just gotta post my two cents on capital punishment:

1. The government should NEVER have the power to kill it's own people -- too much power for the gov't.

2. People make mistakes. Therefore, it will [I]always[/I] be possible to execute an innocent man. How can anyone argue FOR capital punishment when innocent men will die? Simple -- you just can't.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[quote=12thMan;265191]Let me go on the record and say I think we, America, executed Saddam.
Yes, he was hung in Iraq by Iraqis, but his blood is on our hands.[/quote]

And 25 Million people in Iraq thank us.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[QUOTE=Buster;267001]And 25 Million people in Iraq thank us.[/QUOTE]

Hahaha, I must be reading the wrong things because those Iraqis still seem pretty mad at us to me.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;266969]Just gotta post my two cents on capital punishment:

1. The government should NEVER have the power to kill it's own people -- too much power for the gov't.

2. People make mistakes. Therefore, it will [I]always[/I] be possible to execute an innocent man. How can anyone argue FOR capital punishment when innocent men will die? Simple -- you just can't.[/quote]

Our current system is a joke. What is your suggestion?

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[quote=Buster;267001]And 25 Million people in Iraq thank us.[/quote]

You can't really believe this is true.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

Well, this thread has evolved as expected. Perhaps the concern being shed for a dude who wacked??????? 100,000+ people could be more usefully spent on the vic's and families of same, or their rights

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;267027]Well, this thread has evolved as expected. Perhaps the concern being shed for a dude who wacked??????? 100,000+ people could be more usefully spent on the vic's and families of same, or their rights[/QUOTE]

And we're done ...

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;267032]And we're done ...[/quote]

Yeah, it may be time for Matty to shut his own thread down.

Re: Saddam hangs
 

[quote=djnemo65;267011]Hahaha, I must be reading the wrong things because those Iraqis still seem pretty mad at us to me.[/quote]

They should be. We screw up their country, and now they basically have a civil war brewing. Then we execute the one guy that held these two opposing groups at bay.

We have a way of interpreting what we deem to be peace and a civilized community for other countries. It's really unfortunate we put all of our eggs in one basket with Iraq, because now Syria and Iran, and to some extent North Korea have taken note that we've used a lot of political capital and they are most certainly going to continue to pursue their 'programs'.