Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;268976]While I think he'll get signed, the problems are definitely the precedent the Skins have set for overpaying people in the past. He'll want a Jansen-like deal I would guess.[/quote]

There is no way he is looking for a deal like Jansen's. 1. Jansen was considered one of the best right tackles when he signed that deal. 2. Guards are not nearly as coveted as tackles. Hell, Steve Hutchinson's deal wasn't as lucrative as Jansen's and he is light years ahead of Dock.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=jdlea;269008]That's what people need to focus on. I'm not saying "give him whatever he wants." However, they need to keep this group together. There are usually some growing pains when an offensive line gets a new guy...see: Casey Rabach. That didn't go so smoothly his first season. I think they need to keep this group together and hope that they continue to improve.[/quote]

Portis set the franchise record and they went to the playoff's in Rabach's first season.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=REDSKIN2;269116]Why does it seem like the negotiations in signing our own players are always "far apart" and painful. But throw a Free Agent into the mix and all of sudden we have a contract in seconds flat.

It's like we worry about salary cap ramifications with signing our own players but in signing these big time free agents we don't care.

Interesting to say the least and very frustrating.[/quote]

You have just stated principal number one of the Dan Snyder marketing machine.

- Covet another's at the expense of your own.

I would think that they would want to keep Dock because Samuels wants to keep him and he offered to restructure to help.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=Grim21Reaper;269233]There is no way he is looking for a deal like Jansen's. 1. Jansen was considered one of the best right tackles when he signed that deal. 2. Guards are not nearly as coveted as tackles. Hell, Steve Hutchinson's deal wasn't as lucrative as Jansen's and he is light years ahead of Dock.[/quote]

You seem to forget who signs the paychecks though. :(

Jansen hasn't been to the Pro Bowl, neither has Dock, and I bet Dock is basing all this on those numbers.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

I would give Dockery something in the neighborhood of 5 years, $20M, $7M SB.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=skinsfan69;269212]They are not going to revolt. What are they not going to show up for work and cash their large paychecks? Boycott becasue Dock didn't get paid? I don't think so. I'm sure they will be disappointed but they realize that this is business. Guys come and go all the time. Look at the guy that left Seattle for Minn? It's all about who's going to pay me the most money. If Dock can't get the deal he wants here, and someone overpays for him, then let him walk. He's a good player buy not the best and he should not be paid like the best.[/quote]

Not a revolt in the sense that they'll boycott practice and all that kind of crap. But a revolt in the sense that they'll get all pissed off at the front office, and we'll have guys complaining anonymously to Tom Friend about how the front office just pays lip service to retaining "Core Redskins."

If Gibbs is going to toss around this "Core Redskin" stuff, he better make sure that the players feel like it means something to be a "Core Redskin." The perception is growing amongst the players that the front office values outside free agents over home grown players - and I can't blame them for it. It's hard to run through a wall for your coach when you are feeling like you're not valued as much as an equal guy out on the market.

Player perceptions of your coaching structure should not be discounted, they have an impact on the locker room. The trouble we have is that Gibbs is GM and coach all wrapped into one. So if the players have a problem with how the 'Skins are valuing their homegrown talent, they have a problem with Gibbs. (Probably the biggest reason why the coach needs to stick to coaching, and GMs need to stick to contract negotiation. We could use a separate GM.)

Gibbs may have to make a tough decision. Overpay a little bit for Dockery, or risk losing standing in the minds of the offensive line - probably the most valuable and most respected unit on the team. Plenty of players are already frustrated at him for letting Clark go and signing crappy Archuleta for a pile of money. Same with Antonio Pierce. Let's not repeat the same mistakes.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[QUOTE=Grim21Reaper;269235]Portis set the franchise record and they went to the playoff's in Rabach's first season.[/QUOTE]

I didn't say they sucked, I was merely pointing out they had some growing pains...didn't they have some issues in pass protection early? I actually don't remember anymore, but I thought they were shaky in pass coverage early, could be wrong.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=Schneed10;269059]I smell trouble on this one, a whole heap of trouble.

Gibbs has a way of digging in his heels, insisting that Marcus Washington was better than Antonio Pierce, so Pierce should not have been paid more than Marcus. I'm guessing they're thinking along those lines for Randy Thomas and Dock. I'll bet Dock is asking for Randy T money, and Gibbs/Snyder and company won't budge.

...[/quote]
Using that logic, I suppose that Gibbs thought Archuleta would be a better player than Sean Taylor.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=SouperMeister;269381]Using that logic, I suppose that Gibbs thought Archuleta would be a better player than Sean Taylor.[/quote]

That's exactly what annoyed the players so much. The 'Skins apply that relative salary logic to their homegrown players, but they'll blow open the pay scale for outside free agents.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

Speaking of Clark, I've been talking with some people on AIM and wondering what the likelihood would be for him to come back.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

I really wonder how much say Gibbs has when it comes to $$. I know he said those things about Smoot & Washington, but from all I've read, Gibbs doesn't get into negotiations, just personnel. For all we know there could've been a serious disconnect between he & Vinny/Danny in the signings of AA, Loyd & Carter. Gibbs may have said let's sign em, but not at those prices.
If this is an issue, it will certainly have to surface publicly at some point, even if a few years down the road.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;269388]Speaking of Clark, I've been talking with some people on AIM and wondering what the likelihood would be for him to come back.[/QUOTE]

Well, are there rumors of the Steelers cutting him? I think it would be a no-brainer to bring him back....if he's available.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

I think someone mentioned it on the radio maybe?

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=Schneed10;269358]Not a revolt in the sense that they'll boycott practice and all that kind of crap. But a revolt in the sense that they'll get all pissed off at the front office, and we'll have guys complaining anonymously to Tom Friend about how the front office just pays lip service to retaining "Core Redskins."

If Gibbs is going to toss around this "Core Redskin" stuff, he better make sure that the players feel like it means something to be a "Core Redskin." The perception is growing amongst the players that the front office values outside free agents over home grown players - and I can't blame them for it. It's hard to run through a wall for your coach when you are feeling like you're not valued as much as an equal guy out on the market.

Player perceptions of your coaching structure should not be discounted, they have an impact on the locker room. The trouble we have is that Gibbs is GM and coach all wrapped into one. So if the players have a problem with how the 'Skins are valuing their homegrown talent, they have a problem with Gibbs. (Probably the biggest reason why the coach needs to stick to coaching, and GMs need to stick to contract negotiation. We could use a separate GM.)

Gibbs may have to make a tough decision. Overpay a little bit for Dockery, or risk losing standing in the minds of the offensive line - probably the most valuable and most respected unit on the team. Plenty of players are already frustrated at him for letting Clark go and signing crappy Archuleta for a pile of money. Same with Antonio Pierce. Let's not repeat the same mistakes.[/quote]

So what your saying is we should possibly overpay for him for the sake of the locker room? I would agree with you if we were 10 or 20 million under the cap. But is this team in a position to possibly overpay for someone when so many big bonuses have already been paid out? I think at this point we are three milllion over the cap. It looks like we are going to have to do a lot of slashing and restructuring. I hope he stays but at the right price.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=skinsfan69;269405]So what your saying is we should possibly overpay for him for the sake of the locker room? I would agree with you if we were 10 or 20 million under the cap. But is this team in a position to possibly overpay for someone when so many big bonuses have already been paid out? I think at this point we are three milllion over the cap. It looks like we are going to have to do a lot of slashing and restructuring. I hope he stays but at the right price.[/quote]

Three million over is a high estimate. I think the actual number is about $2 or $3 million under.

Secondly there is lots of room for restructuring. Players are due high base salaries this season which are easily renogotiated into lump sum signing bonuses. Win for the team (frees up space), win for the player (gets paid what the contract states, except gets it in one lump sum instead of spread out in game checks).

Even if we signed Dockery to a 6 year, $35 million deal, with a $10 million signing bonus, they would structure it so that he'd only cost us $2.5 million against the cap in 2007.

PS I'm not saying we should pay him that, but this is just to illustrate that whatever we sign him for, his 2007 cap hit should not be a problem for us.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

And yes, I think the team should be willing to overpay [U]a little bit[/U] in this instance. They need to build up a little bit more good will in the locker room, because players are friggin pissed.

Plus, it just makes sense. Dockery represents continuity. Keep him here, and Samuels doesn't have to adjust to someone else. Continuity and familiarity are key on the offensive line.

Dockery is the 2nd best guard available in free agency. Eric Steinbach is widely regarded as the top guard. But to us, I think Dockery is more valuable than Steinbach, because there will be no learning curve with him. We should feel comfortable stretching our budget on Dockery up to whatever Steinbach is worth in the open market.

Re: No progress in Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=Schneed10;269408]Three million over is a high estimate. I think the actual number is about $2 or $3 million under.

Secondly there is lots of room for restructuring. Players are due high base salaries this season which are easily renogotiated into lump sum signing bonuses. Win for the team (frees up space), win for the player (gets paid what the contract states, except gets it in one lump sum instead of spread out in game checks).

Even if we signed Dockery to a 6 year, $35 million deal, with a $10 million signing bonus, they would structure it so that he'd only cost us $2.5 million against the cap in 2007.[/quote]

Schneed - I know you say win for the team but what about the dead cap hit in the future - wouldn't that be considered a "loss for the team" at some point in the future? At some point won't the team have to pay the piper for all the dead cap space on salary renegotiations - if I am correct isn't this what happened to the Titans and they had to basically release a bunch of good players like Samare Rolle and they had a dismal season?

I guess you can say that the cap will keep going up so we can keep renegotiating and Synder has the ATM machine cranking with bonuses to keep doing this, but if you were the GM wouldn't it be an issue to contain/minimize dead cap space as far as long range planning goes to avoid what happened to the Titans? Especially since the NFL has shortened the amount of years you can spread the bonus over (I believe it was 6 or 7 and it is now 4).

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

does anyone know if there has been any movement on dockerys contract?

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

I'm not worried about Dockery getting signed. There will not be huge demand for him in the FA market. HE is not a huge talent. He is just big, strong and slow. There are a ton of guys like Dockery out there.
I think some of you guys are reading way too much into continuity. Talent overcomes any continuity issues.
Look at the Chargers, they have a rookie Marcus McNeill playing tackle and two years ago they drafted a Tackle Shane Olivea (7th round) and center (3rd round), they started their rookies year and took them to the playoffs.
For those of you that are going to say they have LT at RB, well we have Portis. He is a top 5 RB in the NFL.

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

Right now the 'skins are $2.891m over the 2007 NFL cap number of $109m*. I would not expect too much movement until after Jun 1 when the first round of cuts are made barring some form of major restructuring by other players such as Brunell etc.

*source [URL="http://www.skinsfans.com/pcinoz/Salaries%20Pages%20Summary.html"]CPND cap info center[/URL]

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

[QUOTE=squrrelco3;269819]Right now the 'skins are $2.891m over the 2007 NFL cap number of $109m*. I would not expect too much movement until after Jun 1 when the first round of cuts are made barring some form of major restructuring by other players such as Brunell etc.

*source [URL="http://www.skinsfans.com/pcinoz/Salaries%20Pages%20Summary.html"]CPND cap info center[/URL][/QUOTE]

Brunell did some restructuring to allow for Betts' re-signing, so I don't think he's got a lot of wiggle room left to move. There are a number of Redskins who will have their deals looked at, plus a number of players who won't be with the franchise come Cap Check time.

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

Latest on Dockery from PFW:

Redskins officials would like to bring back free-agent OLG Derrick Dockery, if for no other reason than to continue the rapport he has with OLT Chris Samuels, but there is a fear among the team that Dockery is looking for a big payday. Typically, Redskins free agents who have hit the open market rarely return.

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;273245]Latest on Dockery from PFW:

Redskins officials would like to bring back free-agent OLG Derrick Dockery, if for no other reason than to continue the rapport he has with OLT Chris Samuels, but there is a fear among the team that Dockery is looking for a big payday. Typically, Redskins free agents who have hit the open market rarely return.[/QUOTE]

I dont blame him, with the way we throw money at rediculous players like Archuletta, and what we pay for guys like Andre Carter (I love Carter, but he's prob not worth what we payed), why wouldnt he look for the Skins to give him money. I wouldnt break the bank, but I'd still pay alot to keep this guy.

Honestly, if we dont get him resigned, I'd slap the Franchise Tag on him and buy ourselves more time. I really don't want to hear that he's just an average offensive linemen, because the chemsitry required for a good O-line is second to none, and this team right now has chemistry there. The offensive line is one of the few spots that give me any hope for this team, and I think losing Dockery would be a huge loss.

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=Gmanc711;273248]I dont blame him, with the way we throw money at rediculous players like Archuletta, and what we pay for guys like Andre Carter (I love Carter, but he's prob not worth what we payed), why wouldnt he look for the Skins to give him money. I wouldnt break the bank, but I'd still pay alot to keep this guy.

Honestly, if we dont get him resigned, I'd slap the Franchise Tag on him and buy ourselves more time. I really don't want to hear that he's just an average offensive linemen, because the chemsitry required for a good O-line is second to none, and this team right now has chemistry there. The offensive line is one of the few spots that give me any hope for this team, and I think losing Dockery would be a huge loss.[/quote]
I think the problem with the franchise tag is that he would have to be paid the averag of the top ten (not sure if top ten is correct but close) lineman. This goes directly against the cap for 07 and could be the problem with doing that.

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

This is something that needs to happen now. Honestly, go ahead and give him his payday, at least he's been here his whole career.

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

Yeah tagging him would create problems that they probably couldn't handle since they play it so close with the cap.

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote]I'm not worried about Dockery getting signed. There will not be huge demand for him in the FA market. HE is not a huge talent. He is just big, strong and slow. There are a ton of guys like Dockery out there.
I think some of you guys are reading way too much into continuity. Talent overcomes any continuity issues. [/quote]

I must disagree with both of these statements. Dockery was one of our better offensive linemen last year. Sure, his first few years in the league he had some problems. This is the rule, not the exception. Sure, we can list off tons of people who had great rookie/2nd years, but you can list off a ton more that started slow, figured it out, and played at a high level. Dockery is that type of guy, I feel there would be a big demand for a very strong offensive linemen elsewhere in the league.

As far as continuity, I think you're way off base. The Redskins have arguably one of the most "talented" rosters in the NFL. And while I don't think our coaching staff is all that hot, others seem to think that. Put these together, why can't we win with excellent talent? Is it because people come through DC like a turnstyle every offseason? I think so.

We need to realize we can't have our cake and eat it too. We either need to stop doing the FA thing and use our draft, and because of this cant yell at players in their first, 2nd, 3rd years for not being all pros (Rogers comes to mind). Or we can continue with this strategy as long as the cap allows it (which with the way Danny and the boys massage the cap could be quite some time.)

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=Daseal;273268]As far as continuity, I think you're way off base. The Redskins have arguably one of the most "talented" rosters in the NFL. And while I don't think our coaching staff is all that hot, others seem to think that. Put these together, why can't we win with excellent talent? Is it because people come through DC like a turnstyle every offseason? I think so.
[/quote]Continuty, IMO, is important from one standpoint. If you have a successful roster, theres no guarentee that they will win in any given year. Too much can go wrong, and it's rarely smart to gut the thing after one year. Sometimes, a group of guys just needs another chance, not drastic changes.

I think some people take this concept to far, stressing that we should never get rid of anybody even if someone better is available. Dockery played pretty well at times last season, but he's not irreplaceible. Continuity can't account for a lack of talent, and while this 2006 squad got boned more than a few times, I think it's safe to say they werent the team we thought they would be. That's a talent issue. It's not that we don't have top end talent, its that we spread it too thin. No depth, and some starters on defense probably shouldn't be starting in the NFL (I'm looking at you Warrick Holdman).

Our ill-advised signings hurt our ability to build a roster in coming years, but they were not the reason we lost THIS year. We didn't lose because of poor chemistry or continuity, we lost because we got hurt and didn't have the horses to replace the injured guys.

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

Was thinking about this over the past weekend, and the following came to me:

Dock is in a system that shines when it runs the ball ... and the talents around him have enhanced his value. Last year was the first year that Dock actually looked like a viable member of the OL, and not a liability. The knock on him has always been his conditioning, and his ability to stay on his feet when he pulls out to lead through the hole. And his pass blocking has lagged behind his run blocking skills, up 'til last season.

Not sure what kind of money he's looking for, but I'd consider 5 yrs. at 3 mil. per, with a 3 mil. SB

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

Was thinking about this over the past weekend, and the following came to me:

Dock is in a system that shines when it runs the ball ... and the talents around him have enhanced his value. Last year was the first year that Dock actually looked like a viable member of the OL, and not a liability. The knock on him has always been his conditioning, and his ability to stay on his feet when he pulls out to lead through the hole. And his pass blocking has lagged behind his run blocking skills, up 'til last season. And he'd only look good with another team that emphasizes the run, and already has quality lineman in place to surround him. If he's smart, he'll take alook at where he's at, and he'll re-sign fairly soon.

Not sure what kind of money he's looking for, but I'd consider 5 yrs. at 3 mil. per, with a 3 mil. SB

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

$3M per with a $3M SB?

Try doubling the per year and tripling the SB and we might be getting close.

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

now lets play your the skins. do you want dockery back at those kind of numbers? 6 million per, with a 10 million dollar signing bonus?

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

You know, i think this situation has alot more to do the "morale" of the team more than just getting Dock back. To explain, i think we most likely could get a FA to come in and perform pretty well. But, with the line playing so well and our tendancy to overpay FA's and let some "core" guys go i think this is very important. I do think Dock is a good olineman and will get better too. They need to get this done. And yes, i wouldn't blame him for looking for a payday. We pay everyone else.

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

That's exactly my worry too.

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;273283]$3M per with a $3M SB?

Try doubling the per year and tripling the SB and we might be getting close.[/QUOTE]

The guy is nothing, and I mean NOTHING special, 6mil, and 9mil? I would tell him don't let the door hit you in the A**!

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=offiss;273345]The guy is nothing, and I mean NOTHING special, 6mil, and 9mil? I would tell him don't let the door hit you in the A**![/quote]


But here's a scenerio, Offiss. Suppose you let D.Dock go. Okay, fine. Then you replace him with, first of all, who? And then at what price?

Let's say you get a guy comparable to Dockery in size, age, and perhaps ability. How do you determine this guys worth? Even if you bring in this guy at a cheaper price, is he really going to be that much cheaper? And was that dollar amount, maybe $1 or $2 million worth disrupting a line that is on the cusp of being dominate?

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

We could have had two thousand yard backs if Portis stayed healthy. We were tops in the league in sacks allowed, why is everyone so great with letting a piece of this great line walk out the door?

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;273351]We could have had two thousand yard backs if Portis stayed healthy. We were tops in the league in sacks allowed, why is everyone so great with letting a piece of this great line walk out the door?[/quote]

I'm not cool with it. I wouldn't be cool with letting Raubach go. In fact, alone, he's probably an average center, but within the context of the unit, his value is much more. And this is the hard lesson we're learning at Redskins Park. A player isn't just a player. Yes, all by himself anyone is tradeable, but the real question how much value does this guy hold on Sunday?

I'm with you TMC, D.Dock has to stay.

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;273351]We could have had two thousand yard backs if Portis stayed healthy. We were tops in the league in sacks allowed, why is everyone so great with letting a piece of this great line walk out the door?[/quote]Good as it is, it could be bettered.

I think bringing Dockery back is the most logical way to go, but Steinbach's a better guard, and in many cases Dockery's inability to pull effectively has indicated that maybe he isn't built for our running style.

What I don't want to see happen is for us to give Steinbach a deal like we gave Archuleta or Carter this offseason. Don't inflate the signing bonus. If you are going to overpay, you might as well keep Dockery and not overpay. We have a month with Dock staying in house to get a reasonable deal done, if it can't get done in that time, better start looking to replace him.

Re: No progress in Derrick Dockery Negotiations....
 

[quote=GTripp0012;273354]Good as it is, it could be bettered.

I think bringing Dockery back is the most logical way to go, but Steinbach's a better guard, and in many cases Dockery's inability to pull effectively has indicated that maybe he isn't built for our running style.

What I don't want to see happen is for us to give Steinbach a deal like we gave Archuleta or Carter this offseason. Don't inflate the signing bonus. If you are going to overpay, you might as well keep Dockery and not overpay. We have a month with Dock staying in house to get a reasonable deal done, if it can't get done in that time, better start looking to replace him.[/quote]

Why do you say Steinbach is better? And does that mean he's better here within our system?

I just don't buy the whole "this player or that player is better" theory anymore. Unless we're talking bona-fide superstar, without exception. I think any potential upgrade is a 50/50 proposition. I think first and foremost, it takes a year or more to adjust to a new system, locker room and so forth. Then the player can find his groove, so to speak.

If anyone should know this by now, it's the Redskins.