Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=12thMan;276710]You make a good point about Sadaam. Although his leadership was questionable and to some intolerable, can we really say that Iraq is better of now that he's removed?[/quote]

Who cares. The question is are WE better off.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=Buster;276701]What we SHOULD do is send a strong message to Iran now...enough of this U.N. diplomacy thathas proven to not only fail, but actually helps strengthen the enemies by giving them more time to stock up and prepare. We should bomb Iran's nuclear facilities, which will:

1. Say "we're serious...if you help kill Americans, we'll kill you."
2. Take away their ability to retaliate or go after Israel with nukes, which is something they would definitely do.
3. Prevent terrorists anywhere from getting nukes.
4. Reinforce the fact that we are the world's military superpower, not a "paper tiger" like bin Laden called us during the Clinton years.[/quote]
are you living with your head in the sand? lets start with #4. i agree with becoming the worlds only super power. president bush had a chance to do this by bombing Afghanistan immediately following 9-11. how do you propose to accomplish #3? there was so mush uranium unaccounted for by Russia after it originally disbanded that makes this impossible.with #2, i think all nuclear power should be kept under close scrutiny, not just the middle east. and i agree with number one, but there isn't any administration willing to uphold this hardline stance. Iraq was what was going to be president Bush's legacy. now, with the miscalculations, it turned into his nightmare. just like the old saying goes, you step on the bees nest, you stir up the whole hive.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=Daseal;276702]Is anyone looking at this from their point of view? In the 9/11 attacks we lose 2,819 people ([URL="http://nymag.com/news/articles/wtc/1year/numbers.htm%29"]New York Magazine[/URL]. In Iraq, over the course of this war they've lost between 56,023 and 61,736 civilians. I'm sorry if this sounds brash, but we've been damn lucky that a) 9/11 only killed 2,819 people, and that attacks like that don't happen on a more regular basis. 9/11 happens in these countries every couple months, and often we're involved in some way. I don't think it takes rocket science to see why these people hate us. Most of them were living their lives, and yes Saddam wasn't a great ruler by any stretch, but most families weren't losing children, mothers, and fathers from a bomb that goes off course or the escalated violence in the area, this is why they hate us. Their towns are in ruins, many of their family members are dead, and we are directly responsible.

How would you guys support it if, lets say... France, decided that George W. Bush was a dictator and not fit to run the country. The first thing they do is bomb the shit out of our infrastructure. Goodbye power grid, goodbye bridges, cut the fiber-optic backbones going into the country (much like we did in Iraq), kill the telephone lines. Then bomb military outposts. You'd be enraged, a violation of our 'civil rights'. I guess at some point, we need to stop forcing our ways on others. We're the world's Jehovah's witnesses, going door to door, uninvited, and pushing our agenda on someone else.

Then people bitch about car bombs, etc. It's how you win when you're undermanned. They can't just gear up and fight us, they'd get crushed. If we want to go rolling into war, especially with groups instead of sovereign states, we need to expect guerrilla warfare. It's the only effective means for people to fight back, and we can't start a war and expect everyone to drop their weapons and convert to us.

This isn't meant to offend anyone, I'm just asking you to step back from being an American, and put yourself in someone else's shoes. 9/11 was a tragedy, but the loss of human life wasn't near what many countries see on a regular basis. We've been extremely lucky with thwarting such attacks, and in my opinion, pissing more people off isn't the best way to stop them. Many experts say that the Iraq war has done little but breed more terrorists.[/quote]

Are you kidding? Iraqis WEREN'T losing their families under Saddam? Wow. He killed about half a million of his OWN people under his rule. We've found mass graves with 3,000 or more people thrown into one hole, much like Nazi Germany's burial and murder methods. He used chemical weapons on his own people. He had rape rooms and torture chambers that he would pick random people to give a horrible death to for doing nothing more than walking by one of his palaces at the wrong time or for saying something he didn't like. His sons would rape random women and send a video of it to the hushand/father/etc. He'd kill fathers while their families were forced to watch. We've found videos that compiled the way he murdered his citizens, by cutting off limbs, to burning them, to throwing them off of buildings with weight attached to them. He was AS BAD as Hitler, Stalin or Mussolini...he was just stopped before his death toll reached the millions. He even sent oil to Jacques Chirac and the UN in exchange for money for food to supply his people with. Good man, right? No, he used their food money to stock up warehouse upon warehouse with weapons. We've secured and destroyed most of these, but when we were on the way in to attack him, he removed guards and left these warehouses wide open, which is how these "insurgents" got most of their weapons and ammo to use on our troops. (from Gen. Tommy Franks' book)

If you listen to our troops and NON-BIASED sources, the far majority of Iraqi people are happy that our troops removed Saddam. They're thankful and run to the streets to thank them. Of the 19 provinces in Iraq, 16 are operating with no problems...the violence we hear about every day is in just 3 areas, one being Baghdad. We've set up infracstructures they've never had before like running water and electricity throughout the country. For the first time ever, Iraqi girls and women can attend school. We've build hospitals.

There is a giant difference between the USA and a lot of other nations who get involved in wars. We go to war for 2 main reasons:
1. In retaliation or self-defense. (ex: Pearl Harbor, 09/11/01)
2. To free those living under dictators or corrupt governments.

We never attack anyone without them doing something to deserve or and without it being neccessary. Sometimes I think we're TOO diplomatic and waste precious time. An example of that would be with Osama bin Laden. He attacked us throughout the 90s on a near-annual basis. We should've sent him to see his 72 virgins after the first attack in 1993.

Removing my American status and looking at it, I still could not come to understand people who kill their own people or kill their neighbors just because they don't attend the same mosque as me or don't have the same skin color. I could not take the side of a country who attacks other nations without being attacked first, no matter what economic or social conditions are present in my country.

You can't negotiate with people who want you dead and actually have a verse in their Quran that says you can lie to any non-Muslim in order to trick them into trusting you so that you can kill them.

Their news media (and gaining control of OUR media) will try to get you to be sympathetic towards them, but while you're standing back feeling sorry for you, they'll sneak up behind you and blow you up. It's exactly what they want, our general public to feel sorry for them and for our media to affect our politics...to weaken our government's ability to defeat them.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=12thMan;276710]You make a good point about Sadaam. Although his leadership was questionable and to some intolerable, can we really say that Iraq is better of now that he's removed?[/quote]


[url=http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html]Saddam Hussein killer file[/url]

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=Daseal;276707]Buster, does that mean America helped kill Americans? We dismantled our F-14 Tomcat jets. Guess where we ended up selling the parts to? Whoops? Maybe we should do our homework and stop selling fighter jets to Iran?
[URL="http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-01-31-pentagon-surplus_x.htm"]Lawmaker says Pentagon's suspension of F-14 part sales falls short - USATODAY.com[/URL][/quote]
You need to read the entire article they some how left the most important part for the very end of the article.

The U.S. military retired its F-14s last fall, and decided to destroy at least 10,000 parts it considers unique to the Tomcat.
It had planned to sell about 60% of the roughly 76,000 parts for the F-14, considering them general aircraft hardware it was safe to sell without restrictions.
The Pentagon says it has to balance national security concerns with its mandate to recoup costs by selling leftover gear when it can. It maintains it has followed proper procedures in selling surplus, including those instances where equipment was acquired by buyers for Iran and China.
[I]Copyright [/I]
[I]So its just general parts which some could purchase and then sell to Iran but again it sounds to me that they are parts that they could buy anyway from other sources.[/I]

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

i am for what is best for the American people. and i do not want our government lying to me about their hidden agendas. to me, how we got to Iraq is sometimes the bigger story then what we are going to do now. bush should have taken care of bin laden, first and foremost. then he could have ventured into Iraq looking like a king. now he looks like a discombobulated fool

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=Schneed10;276711]Do you think backing out of Iraq would really un-embolden them??

No matter whether we stay or go, they're going to try to kill us. It's a war. Kill them, or kill us. It takes two sides to end a war. Just because we leave Iraq doesn't mean they'll stop the war.[/quote]

I don't think there is an easy answer to that question. Just like pointing missles at Iran isn't an easy solution either.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=Buster;276715]Are you kidding? Iraqis WEREN'T losing their families under Saddam? Wow. He killed about half a million of his OWN people under his rule. We've found mass graves with 3,000 or more people thrown into one hole, much like Nazi Germany's burial and murder methods. He used chemical weapons on his own people. He had rape rooms and torture chambers that he would pick random people to give a horrible death to for doing nothing more than walking by one of his palaces at the wrong time or for saying something he didn't like. His sons would rape random women and send a video of it to the hushand/father/etc. He'd kill fathers while their families were forced to watch. We've found videos that compiled the way he murdered his citizens, by cutting off limbs, to burning them, to throwing them off of buildings with weight attached to them. He was AS BAD as Hitler, Stalin or Mussolini...he was just stopped before his death toll reached the millions. He even sent oil to Jacques Chirac and the UN in exchange for money for food to supply his people with. Good man, right? No, he used their food money to stock up warehouse upon warehouse with weapons. We've secured and destroyed most of these, but when we were on the way in to attack him, he removed guards and left these warehouses wide open, which is how these "insurgents" got most of their weapons and ammo to use on our troops. (from Gen. Tommy Franks' book)

If you listen to our troops and NON-BIASED sources, the far majority of Iraqi people are happy that our troops removed Saddam. They're thankful and run to the streets to thank them. Of the 19 provinces in Iraq, 16 are operating with no problems...the violence we hear about every day is in just 3 areas, one being Baghdad. We've set up infracstructures they've never had before like running water and electricity throughout the country. For the first time ever, Iraqi girls and women can attend school. We've build hospitals.

There is a giant difference between the USA and a lot of other nations who get involved in wars. We go to war for 2 main reasons:
1. In retaliation or self-defense. (ex: Pearl Harbor, 09/11/01)
2. To free those living under dictators or corrupt governments.

We never attack anyone without them doing something to deserve or and without it being neccessary. Sometimes I think we're TOO diplomatic and waste precious time. An example of that would be with Osama bin Laden. He attacked us throughout the 90s on a near-annual basis. We should've sent him to see his 72 virgins after the first attack in 1993.

Removing my American status and looking at it, I still could not come to understand people who kill their own people or kill their neighbors just because they don't attend the same mosque as me or don't have the same skin color. I could not take the side of a country who attacks other nations without being attacked first, no matter what economic or social conditions are present in my country.

You can't negotiate with people who want you dead and actually have a verse in their Quran that says you can lie to any non-Muslim in order to trick them into trusting you so that you can kill them.

Their news media (and gaining control of OUR media) will try to get you to be sympathetic towards them, but while you're standing back feeling sorry for you, they'll sneak up behind you and blow you up. It's exactly what they want, our general public to feel sorry for them and for our media to affect our politics...to weaken our government's ability to defeat them.[/quote]
You know its funny how we never hear anything postive that goes on over there and it must be for a reason (left wing media and make Bush look bad at any cost). I have talked to several people that have been over there and I also talk to my daughters boy friend who enlisted a year ago to go and fight (not sure if I would have done this). He calls from Iraq and its kind of weird talking to someone as they are there. He says alot of positive stuff happens day in and day out all over the place and most of the troops are ticked at the media for only reporting the bad. He also says that most think that all the negative press only encorages the insurgants that what their doing is working and if they keep it up the US people will grow tired and we will leave.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=firstdown;276724]You know its funny how we never hear anything postive that goes on over there and it must be for a reason (left wing media and make Bush look bad at any cost). I have talked to several people that have been over there and I also talk to my daughters boy friend who enlisted a year ago to go and fight (not sure if I would have done this). He calls from Iraq and its kind of weird talking to someone as they are there. He says alot of positive stuff happens day in and day out all over the place and most of the troops are ticked at the media for only reporting the bad. He also says that most think that all the negative press only encorages the insurgants that what their doing is working and if they keep it up the US people will grow tired and we will leave.[/quote]

It's amazing the power our media has. Once you get behind the scenes a little, the picture changes.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

does anyone really believe anything this administration says?

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;276730]does anyone really believe anything this administration says?[/quote]
I guess you going back to WMD's?

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

the link between Al quada and Saddam Hussein? the list goes on and on

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;276730]does anyone really believe anything this administration says?[/quote]

I may not believe word for word what any administration says but I generally feel that the overall message is basically truthful. When you see that a particular person is a threat or even has a potential to threaten you, you will be inclined to generate whatever support you can to prevent that person from harming you. If it means stretching and even regrettably fabricating data to increase the support, I guess I'm all for it. I have no idea what motivations, if any, Hussein had that were going to intentionally harm the US. I trust our governnment regardless if it's Clinton or Bush or whoever to deal with it as they deem necessary. If they play by the rules and win, YAY. If they have to distort or twist the rosy colored lenses abit, oh well. The job got done or is getting done and that's all I'm concerned with.

As far as the media only representing one side of the situation over there, well DUH! No one reads the papers or watches CNN for "feel good stories". If they do, it's just for a momentary change of pace.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

Nobody never's, and nobody alway's.
Bush is getting bad deal with the media. He's nobody's hero, but regardless of what he does, he's done. He cannot win with the media. If the US troops had found WMD, he would be a hero, and the war in Iraq would be just. If the TRUTH were actually known, I am confident that Sadaam took care of business with the months advance warning we gave him, and stashed his stuff. Unfortunately for truth, justice, and he American way, the media control opinion, but it won't ever be played out like that. The media knows little about truth, just drama.
As you were saying in an earlier post Dmec, you don't approve of hidden agenda's. Our Govt is all about hidden agenda's. IMO that does not make them evil. The American public has become a joke. We care more about American Idol, than the fate of our world. Don't have time to save my world...........gotta' see who's the father of Anna Nicole's kid.

Yea, Yea, Yea, I woke up on the wrong side of the rock

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=Buster;276715]We go to war for 2 main reasons:
1. In retaliation or self-defense. (ex: Pearl Harbor, 09/11/01)
2. To free those living under dictators or corrupt governments.
[/QUOTE]

We go to war for 1 reason: to ensure our domination over the rest of the world. To ensure that we remain the ONLY superpower. We don't go to war for anyone but ourselves -- and that is the way it should be, barring genocide.

[QUOTE=Buster;276715]
I could not take the side of a country who attacks other nations without being attacked first, no matter what economic or social conditions are present in my country.[/QUOTE]

America attacked Iraq without being attacked first. I think you probably meant to word that differently. I think I understand what you mean.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

The big issue that isn't being discussed is Israel. That is the primary reason why terrorists hate us. Not because of our way of life -- because we support Israel, and Israel dominates the region.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

I would definately be in some agreement with you. Are saying that is a good thing, or a bad thing?

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;276733]the link between Al quada and Saddam Hussein? the list goes on and on[/quote]
The link was made between the two its how much they worked together if they did at all is what is not known. WMD's was thought by most major nations, UN, Congress, Bill Clinton, so I guess they all lied to us. I like how the Democrates in congress said the same thing and had access to the same information but now blame it all on the Bush administration.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

hog1 good post. i am the type of person that would rather hear nothing, then hear a bunch of lies. most of the American public cant handle the truth( sound familiar?) but instead of lying, how about just keeping quiet, not lying and trying to trick people?

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=firstdown;276743]The link was made between the two its how much they worked together if they did at all is what is not known. WMD's was thought by most major nations, UN, Congress, Bill Clinton, so I guess they all lied to us. I like how the Democrates in congress said the same thing and had access to the same information but now blame it all on the Bush administration.[/quote]
i think its hysterical that everything that is wrong with America is always, somehow bill Clinton's fault. and the demos had the same info, but the difference is now that they realize they were wrong, they are trying to fix it. not being a cement head, like bush, and refusing to take blame, admitting mistakes, and trying to fix the problem

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;276738]The big issue that isn't being discussed is Israel. That is the primary reason why terrorists hate us. Not because of our way of life -- because we support Israel, and Israel dominates the region.[/QUOTE]

I think that simplifies the "war on terrorism." A lot of people tend to talk about "the terrorists" as though they are a single entity, with a single set of gripes, and a single strategy. That oversimplification is IMO, well.....simply wrong.

There are certainly terrorists whose main gripe with the U.S. is its support of Israel. There are other terrorists who are upset with other aspects of U.S. foreign policy (e.g., stationing troops in the Middle East).

There are also, however, a great deal of other terrorists who in fact find Western culture demonic. If you listen to a great number of Islamic [I]radicals[/I], they will tell you that democracy is evil because the only law that should govern is the law of the Koran. The American way of life is the epitome of everything that is wrong with democracy - it is hedonistic, materialistic, sexual, etc.

There are other terrorists who actually want to establish a caliphate extending from Spain in the Northeast (which was once ruled by the Moors - Muslims) to all of Africa in the South and much of Southeast Asia (which has large Muslim populations). This single "kingdom" would ruled by ayatollahs who strictly follow the Koran.

My only point is that there are a lot of different terrorist groups. They do not all agree on a single objective or ideology. In fact, that is why you see so many terrorist groups killing one another. So, it's wrong to say that U.S. foreign policy drives all terrorists. U.S. foreign policy may motivate some terrorists, but not all. And while I hate to agree with G.W., he's right when he says that some terrorists "hate us for our way of life."

DISCLAIMER: The vast majority of Muslims are peace-loving and decent. In talking about various "terrorist groups" above, I am obviously only referring to the violent minority.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;276742]I would definately be in some agreement with you. Are saying that is a good thing, or a bad thing?[/QUOTE]

I'd say it is probably good and bad.

The real reason I mentioned it was because of the following:
1. We will NEVER stop supporting Israel.
2. The terrorists will ALWAYS hate us as long as we support Israel.

Therefore, there is NO possible diplomatic solution. So, the only logical solution is to kill all the terrorists, but that is impossible. It is a lose-lose situation.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;276744]hog1 good post. i am the type of person that would rather hear nothing, then hear a bunch of lies. most of the American public cant handle the truth( sound familiar?) but instead of lying, how about just keeping quiet, not lying and trying to trick people?[/quote]

I agree, I don't like being treated like a sheep either, but I cannot deny that Americans have given the Govt reason not to tell us the truth in all circumstances. Maybe nothing is better than something HTTR

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;276748]I'd say it is probably good and bad.

The real reason I mentioned it was because of the following:
1. We will NEVER stop supporting Israel.
2. The terrorists will ALWAYS hate us as long as we support Israel.

Therefore, there is NO possible diplomatic solution. So, the only logical solution is to kill all the terrorists, but that is impossible. It is a lose-lose situation.[/quote]
I agree with you, we support Israel=they hate us. Can't stop terrorism, but chasing there ass's all over the world has kept their heads (and no more 9-11, so far) down....................IMO

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

It's not like the government "lying" to the people is anything new. Politicians, even well-intentioned ones, have always had to "sell" their policies to the public.

Did Bush "lie" about the WMDs? In my opinion he did not. Just about every intelligence agency around the world agreed that Iraq had them (including the French and Russian intelligence services). Did Bush mislead the American public about how much evidence there was of the WMDs? Yes, but that was not in bad-faith as everyone thought the WMDs were there but the evidence was not solid.

For me, the interesting question about our entry into Iraq was not whether Bush lied about WMDs, it is whether even if Iraq did have WMDs should we have gone into Iraq. IMO we should not have and Bush was simply wrong.

As for what to do today, I think the whole WMD issue is water under the bridge. Everyone knows it was a mistake to go into Iraq, that Bush lied or misled us, and that we cannot undo what has already taken place. The issue today should be, "How are we going to fix this mess?"

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

1. You can't stop determined people. One of the greatest things about mankind is it's ability to adapt.
2. You can't win a global war. It's absurd that some think the US could win "the global war on terror."
3. If you keep telling people what they can or can't do they'll eventually give you the finger and do as they please.
4. The greatest threat to us isn't from dirty bombs or military hardware but rather from biological weapons. You can't stop people from cooking up a virus in some remote location.
5. If you aren't talking to people then you don't know who and what you are dealing with.
6. Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;276754]It's not like the government "lying" to the people is anything new. Politicians, even well-intentioned ones, have always had to "sell" their policies to the public.

Did Bush "lie" about the WMDs? In my opinion he did not. Just about every intelligence agency around the world agreed that Iraq had them (including the French and Russian intelligence services). Did Bush mislead the American public about how much evidence there was of the WMDs? Yes, but that was not in bad-faith as everyone thought the WMDs were there but the evidence was not solid.

For me, the interesting question about our entry into Iraq was not whether Bush lied about WMDs, it is whether even if Iraq did have WMDs should we have gone into Iraq. IMO we should not have and Bush was simply wrong.

As for what to do today, I think the whole WMD issue is water under the bridge. Everyone knows it was a mistake to go into Iraq, that Bush lied or misled us, and that we cannot undo what has already taken place. The issue today should be, "How are we going to fix this mess?"[/quote]
I think that the timing was bad but I think at some point in time we would have to face this problem in Iraq. Its tough to tell. If left to go as he pleased could we have been just waiting for ticking tomb bomb? One thing we do know that he was willing to envade another country so is it that hard to believe that he would never attack us? Not a military type attack but more of a sucker punch type of attack. I guess that one we will never know which is not a bad thing. Is Iran another one that if left to do as they please will never attack us? I just think that one of these nut jobs will want to go down in history as one that attacked the most powerful nation in the world and not just in the form of a terrorist type attack.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

I could never see Iran attacking America without attacking Israel first. IMO, if Iran has aspirations to attack anyone, it will be Israel. They just know that if they do so, America will be bombing their asses into oblivion. But, I do think they are prepared for that. Also, most of their important bases are underneath mountains. I'm not sure if we have bombs that can penetrate mountains. So, I am not sure if we could destroy their most precious military infrastructure without going in on the ground.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

i dont its if we have the weaponary, i think its if we have someone that has enough "balls" to do it

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;276766]I could never see Iran attacking America without attacking Israel first. IMO, if Iran has aspirations to attack anyone, it will be Israel. They just know that if they do so, America will be bombing their asses into oblivion. But, I do think they are prepared for that. Also, most of their important bases are underneath mountains. I'm not sure if we have bombs that can penetrate mountains. So, I am not sure if we could destroy their most precious military infrastructure without going in on the ground.[/quote]
Yes I believe that we do have bombs that can penetrate the ground before they go off but how deep they go I don't know. I do know we have some that will go down a cave then go off and just fry people and not other things. I'm not sure if Israel is attacked by Iran we would get invloved because they have the weapons to defend their self. Now if it was a multiple of other country's we may but I think that would be the last thing we do because it could esculate into something much bigger.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;276745]i think its hysterical that everything that is wrong with America is always, somehow bill Clinton's fault. and the demos had the same info, but the difference is now that they realize they were wrong, they are trying to fix it. not being a cement head, like bush, and refusing to take blame, admitting mistakes, and trying to fix the problem[/quote]We have no idea right now whether or not the decisions the Bush Administration are making are helping to fix or hindering the progress of the country. That's 100% media factor. I could say right now that Mario Williams' legacy is one of failure, but we've yet to see the effects that his career will have on the Houston Texans and the NFL. History isn't defined over short period.

What we can tell is this; the decisions made by our administrations of the past have created the situation of the present. It would be foolish to blame it all on Clinton or all on Bush Sr. The effects we are dealing with now are comprised of many, many, many decisions going back past Reagan, past Carter, past LBJ, even to the FDR days. It's impossible to fault individuals for these decisions. No one man has the wisdom to look 20-50 years into the future to see the long term consequences of their actions.

This mess was created by past figures and the Bush Administration isn't solely responsible for cleaning it up. Another administration will take over in 2 years and this middle east issue will still be an issue.

Maybe 20 years from now, we will be able to see if Bush started the process of fixing the middle east, or if he indeed mucked up the situation even further. Don't be foolish enough to think we will know by today, tomorrow, or the next day, and espicially don't be foolish enough to think we already know. We are human beings, not prophets.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=firstdown;276785]Yes I believe that we do have bombs that can penetrate the ground before they go off but how deep they go I don't know. I do know we have some that will go down a cave then go off and just fry people and not other things. I'm not sure if Israel is attacked by Iran we would get invloved because they have the weapons to defend their self. Now if it was a multiple of other country's we may but I think that would be the last thing we do because it could esculate into something much bigger.[/quote]

Well if Iran was going to attack Israel, I'd think they'd do it through long range missile strikes. They don't have any continguous landmass to Israel. They can't just go rolling through Iraq on their way to Israel. And Iran doesn't have a navy.

If Iran is going to attack Israel, they'd likely use one of those long range missiles they have, and would probably try to arm it with a nuclear warhead. If they did that, yeah, we'd get involved.

But if they try to roll up on Israel with a pitiful force like Hezbolla did, then yeah, we'd just let Israel take care of it. Israel is our ally; any serious threat to their security would definitely bring about a US response.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;276790]We have no idea right now whether or not the decisions the Bush Administration are making are helping to fix or hindering the progress of the country. That's 100% media factor. I could say right now that Mario Williams' legacy is one of failure, but we've yet to see the effects that his career will have on the Houston Texans and the NFL. History isn't defined over short period.

What we can tell is this; the decisions made by our administrations of the past have created the situation of the present. It would be foolish to blame it all on Clinton or all on Bush Sr. The effects we are dealing with now are comprised of many, many, many decisions going back past Reagan, past Carter, past LBJ, even to the FDR days. It's impossible to fault individuals for these decisions. No one man has the wisdom to look 20-50 years into the future to see the long term consequences of their actions.

This mess was created and the Bush Administration isn't solely responsible for cleaning it up. Another administration will take over in 2 years and this middle east issue will still be an issue.

Maybe 20 years from now, we will be able to see if Bush started the process of fixing the middle east, or if he indeed mucked up the situation even further. Don't be foolish enough to think we will know by today, tomorrow, or the next day, and espicially don't be foolish enough to think we already know. We are human beings, not prophets.[/quote]

Great post, Gtripp.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

good post gtripp. the only problem i have with any of the united states dealings in the middle east are we cannot understand a society the breeds killings for the sake of religion. these people have been killing each other for the last 2000 years(at least) and will continue to do so, regardless of what we do. they teach it at a young age, it is philosophy, a way of life. and what we accomplish now is strictly short term

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

As others have pointed out GTripp, that was a really nice post. But, I think that whether you agreed or disagreed with the decision to go to war in Iraq, [I]that[/I] mess is squarely on G.W.'s shoulders.

On a somewhat related point, I ran across an interesting Fox News poll (yes, Fox News). In it Respondents are asked whether they want Bush's plan for Iraq to fail and a resounding 34% of Democrats said "Yes." Why on earth would you [I]want[/I] (as opposed to expect) the plan to fail? I'm a Dem-leaning independent, but that kind of stuff makes me want to puke and join the Repubs. Click on the link and look at question #21 [url]http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/011807_foxnewspoll.pdf[/url].

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

coming from fox, can you really believe that poll? its getting harder and harder to believe anything in the media

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

and why in the world do they have Donald trump and Rosie in the same poll?

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;276802]As others have pointed out GTripp, that was a really nice post. But, I think that whether you agreed or disagreed with the decision to go to war in Iraq, [I]that[/I] mess is squarely on G.W.'s shoulders.

On a somewhat related point, I ran across an interesting Fox News poll (yes, Fox News). In it Respondents are asked whether they want Bush's plan for Iraq to fail and a resounding 34% of Democrats said "Yes." Why on earth would you [I]want[/I] (as opposed to expect) the plan to fail? I'm a Dem-leaning independent, but that kind of stuff makes me want to puke and join the Repubs. Click on the link and look at question #21 [URL]http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/011807_foxnewspoll.pdf.[/URL][/quote]

You have to wonder in "who's head does that make sense"?

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=Schneed10;276665]I don't care if they're hypocritical when they're doing things that protect our troops.

If they get mad at Iran for supplying bombs that might kill our troops, I'm OK with that. I'm also OK with it if they have supplied technology/equipment in the past if it meant that it weakened our enemies in the past.

If Iran is going to do this crap, it's an act of war in my opinion. I think we ought to be thinking about launching some long range missile strikes from our ships in the gulf at all of their military installations and potential nuclear facilities.[/quote]

then are we at war with russia and france for supplying iraq with military gear illegally? are we at war in africa, where we recently (within the last month) supplied an army with air support and training to fight the muslim army that had control there? should they start packing bags booking flight to come here and blow things up because of our "act of war"? that's a pretty broad definition there, and we don't have nearly enough draft-eligible troops to maintain that.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=dmek25;276745]i think its hysterical that everything that is wrong with America is always, somehow bill Clinton's fault. and the demos had the same info, but the difference is now that they realize they were wrong, they are trying to fix it. not being a cement head, like bush, and refusing to take blame, admitting mistakes, and trying to fix the problem[/quote]
If you read my post again I just listed people, country's, and the UN as one's who said that they WMD's. I never said any thing about any ones fault or blame. I just thought you need to call all of them liers if your saying Bush lied. Bush has admitted to mistakes I think you just disagree on what he is doing to change things (adding more troops). I would also like to know what the Dems. are doing to fix the problem?