Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

well, i think the right move is to commit the proper number of troops to do what needs to be done, and we really didn't have enough on the ground compared to the deployment needs. More people is good. if the locals feel safe, they'll feel better about going on with their lives and try harder to restore iraq since they'll be less worried about, you know, not dying.

but while more troops on the ground is good, you CANNOT institute a draft. while it's nice economically, the effect on morale, combat efficiency, and conduct is terrible. Soldiers that don't want to be there aren't as likely to play nice with the locals, are more likely to do drugs, etc etc. not to mention popular support goes to zero REALLY, REALLY fast.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;287523]there's no doubt he's a bad guy, but there are lots of bad guys out there, and its convenient that we go after this one and do NOTHING about the others.[/QUOTE]

Hate to differ again, but I do not think that we do "nothing" about the other "bad guys." In the past decade or so we've gone into the Balkans (twice), Somalia, Haiti, and now Iraq.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

Plus Monterey, CA is a pretty cool place to go to linguist school.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

I have an idea, from now on, why don't we leave it to the oppressed people of the world to overthrow their own dictators?

There's not ONE American soldier, airman, marine, or sailor that is worth dying to protect the schlums who won't stand up to protect themselves.

Everybody gets the government/dictator they deserve.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=Beemnseven;287555]I have an idea, from now on, why don't we leave it to the oppressed people of the world to overthrow their own dictators?

There's not ONE American soldier, airman, marine, or sailor that is worth dying to protect the schlums who won't stand up to protect themselves.

Everybody gets the government/dictator they deserve.[/quote]
I think we'd be the united states of germany in the 1940's with this kind of thinking.

I think the point your trying to get at is that we shouldn't be the world police anymore. That's too much of a burden, takes too many resources, and quite frankly isn't working.

I was just having a couple of drinks with my good friend who just got back from a year long tour in the worst part of Iraq, and believe me, he feels the same. He see's alot of hope for the people, but is really fed up with alot of the political reasons given for the start of the war now.

He was telling me that he thinks we need to finish this war, hand the nation of Iraq a feasable nation back, and then stay out of the middle east.

It's really a mess out there and wasn't worth it. At this point though, we need to set up Iraq's economy and then leave, thats the most important thing.

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[QUOTE=RobH4413;287661]I think we'd be the united states of germany in the 1940's with this kind of thinking.

I think the point your trying to get at is that we shouldn't be the world police anymore. That's too much of a burden, takes too many resources, and quite frankly isn't working.

I was just having a couple of drinks with my good friend who just got back from a year long tour in the worst part of Iraq, and believe me, he feels the same. He see's alot of hope for the people, but is really fed up with alot of the political reasons given for the start of the war now.

He was telling me that he thinks we need to finish this war, hand the nation of Iraq a feasable nation back, and then stay out of the middle east.

It's really a mess out there and wasn't worth it. At this point though, we need to set up Iraq's economy and then leave, thats the most important thing.[/QUOTE]

[I]Self-Appointed [/I]World Police would be more correct.

As far as Germany goes, certainly the argument could be made that our involvement in WWII was necessary since Germany took the time to declare war on us first. Not only that, German U-boats wrecked havoc on U.S.-British shipping lanes in the North Atlantic prior to our intervention in Europe.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

I have a question for anyone to answer:

So a lot of people think it is almost comical that the Bush administration has failed to recognize that Iraq is in the midst of a full-blown civil war. I certainly agree that Iraq is in a full-blown civil war (albeit one international actors on both sides). Iraq's civil war consists of ethnic cleansing on highest scale - Shia killing Sunni, Sunni killing Shia, neighborhoods being "cleansed," etc. However, isn't this the same kind of civil war that many wanted us to get involved in in Rwanda, Bosnia, and Kosovo? If so, what accounts for saying that we should get out of Iraq because they are in a civil war and saying that we should get involved in those other places?

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

Again, I don't have anything to add besides a comment. I think it's a lot on the insane side that people can be convinced to kill their countrymen over the slight difference between Shia and Sunni. That's like Methodists fighting Baptists. While one might argue that even a minute difference in a religion is HUGE to each side, it's still a LOT of crazy and not worth killing over.

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[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;287711]Again, I don't have anything to add besides a comment. I think it's a lot on the insane side that people can be convinced to kill their countrymen over the slight difference between Shia and Sunni. That's like Methodists fighting Baptists. While one might argue that even a minute difference in a religion is HUGE to each side, it's still a LOT of crazy and not worth killing over.[/QUOTE]

Seriously. What is even sadder is that we watch music videos here, in Iraq videos of beheadings, attacks on Iraqi Police and U.S. forces, and other generally sadistic sh-t are extremely marketable. When you're country is getting its rocks off on beheadings, you know you're headed straight down the toilet. If you have ever seen one of those videos, you will think very differently about what kind of enemy we are facing and how far we have to go to turn the place into a stable democracy.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;287711]Again, I don't have anything to add besides a comment. I think it's a lot on the insane side that people can be convinced to kill their countrymen over the slight difference between Shia and Sunni. That's like Methodists fighting Baptists. While one might argue that even a minute difference in a religion is HUGE to each side, it's still a LOT of crazy and not worth killing over.[/quote]

tell that to the people of ireland :/.

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Oh, I've seen one. One of my buddies is extremely traumatized from being over there and came to my house one day showing me that shit. I almost puked from one of them.

There is NO regard for human life.

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[quote=That Guy;287718]tell that to the people of ireland :/.[/quote]

That was the one I was thinking of as a possible exception. STILL though, that can be said for a lot of religions in the past. Catholics and Protestants have largely different beliefs when you look at sub groups.

Shia and Sunni are subgroups of Islam, and yet those minute differences are enough to feel justified in blowing up yourself, innocents and more.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;287724]Oh, I've seen one. One of my buddies is extremely traumatized from being over there and came to my house one day showing me that shit. I almost puked from one of them.

There is NO regard for human life.[/QUOTE]

Yup. I made the mistake of watching ONE video and I will never watch another. I also had the misfortune of reading the NYT article about how the citizens of Fallujah burned some U.S. contractors and hung their bodies from strings on a bridge. Those people (obviously the insurgents and some of their sympathizers and not all Iraqis) have SERIOUS issues that will never be resolved.

I used to laugh at my girlfriend's brother when he referred to terrorist-types as "barbarians." He sounded like a 5 year old by using such a word to actually describe people. Let's just say that I'm not laughing anymore.

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Yeah, I saw that on TV. It also showed children stomping the bodies and spitting on them.

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[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;287708]I have a question for anyone to answer:

So a lot of people think it is almost comical that the Bush administration has failed to recognize that Iraq is in the midst of a full-blown civil war. I certainly agree that Iraq is in a full-blown civil war (albeit one international actors on both sides). Iraq's civil war consists of ethnic cleansing on highest scale - Shia killing Sunni, Sunni killing Shia, neighborhoods being "cleansed," etc. However, isn't this the same kind of civil war that many wanted us to get involved in in Rwanda, Bosnia, and Kosovo? If so, what accounts for saying that we should get out of Iraq because they are in a civil war and saying that we should get involved in those other places?[/quote]
i think the one major difference between Iraq and kosovo is that the united states pretty much created the mess that Iraq is right now. it was almost like stepping on a bees nest. we really stirred all the nuts up. i know one thing, there sure is alot more hatred in the world against the united states since we invaded Iraq

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[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;287730]Yeah, I saw that on TV. It also showed children stomping the bodies and spitting on them.[/QUOTE]

Didn't see that, I just read the article in the NYT. The only video I saw was of people dragging the bodies of U.S. troops through the streets, little kids holding AK-47s cheering and yelling "Allah Akbar" (God is great), the Iraqis cutting off the soldiers' heads while again yelling "Allah Akbar," and proceeding to flay open the chests of the soldiers. Needless to say, I never watched another video.

I didn't even want to go near the videos of the insurgents cutting off the heads of various contractors, journalists, and [B]aid workers[/B]. I did, however, watch some video clips from Al Jazeera showing some "scholars intelligently discussing" whether it was right or wrong to kill such non-combatants. As you might expect, the consensus was (a) it was sad, but okay because these people were part of an occupying force, and (b) America is bad and the root of all evil.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;287732]i think the one major differece between iraq and kosovo is that the united states pretty much created the mess that iraq is right now. it was almost like stepping on a bees nest. we really stirred all the nuts up. i know one thing, there sure is alot more hatred in the world against the united states since we invaded iraq[/QUOTE]

We certainly screwed up in Iraq, but that doesn't really answer the question about what to do [I]in the future[/I]. The problems in Kosovo etc. and Iraq and very similar but, for unknown reasons, people think that we should address such problems by intervening in the former cases and withdrawing in the latter cases.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

There are still people in this country who can remember a time when certain regions of this country had fellow countrymen killing fellow countrymen all because the pigmentation of their skin was darker. Even today you'll find trace elements of groups who still think this barbarically.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[QUOTE=724Skinsfan;287736]There are still people in this country who can remember a time when certain regions of this country had fellow countrymen killing fellow countrymen all because the pigmentation of their skin was darker. Even today you'll find trace elements of groups who still think this barbarically.[/QUOTE]

But the difference is that here, when a guy (e.g., Byrd) is dragged behind a truck because of the color of his skin, the country gasps. In Iraq, videos of beheadings and torture are top-selling hits.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;287741]But the difference is that here, when a guy (e.g., Byrd) is dragged behind a truck because of the color of his skin, the country gasps. In Iraq, videos of beheadings and torture are top-selling hits.[/quote]


Yeah, I know. Good thing the Internet wasn't around 50+ years ago.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;287708]I have a question for anyone to answer:

So a lot of people think it is almost comical that the Bush administration has failed to recognize that Iraq is in the midst of a full-blown civil war. I certainly agree that Iraq is in a full-blown civil war (albeit one international actors on both sides). Iraq's civil war consists of ethnic cleansing on highest scale - Shia killing Sunni, Sunni killing Shia, neighborhoods being "cleansed," etc. However, isn't this the same kind of civil war that many wanted us to get involved in in Rwanda, Bosnia, and Kosovo? If so, what accounts for saying that we should get out of Iraq because they are in a civil war and saying that we should get involved in those other places?[/quote]

To my knowledge Rwanda, Bosnia, and Kosova neither had the desire nor the wherewithal to cleanse the planet of infidels, starting with the USA. Obviously, factions in this current action have demonstrated differently. Our own survival as we know it, may in some ways hinge on what the outcome is in Iraq

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=Hog1;287757]To my knowledge Rwanda, Bosnia, and Kosova neither had the desire nor the wherewithal to cleanse the planet of infidels, starting with the USA. Obviously, factions in this current action have demonstrated differently. Our own survival as we know it, may in some ways hinge on what the outcome is in Iraq[/quote]

actually, it probably won't. after the invasion, the various middle-eastern states and factions didn't unify against america, they starting infighting amongst themselves. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to pull out and just hope everything works itself out, cause that's just not likely, but it's probably not entirely fire and brimstone for the world either way.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

I know it's really cynical, but after 9/11 when the Iraq crisis was heating up, I thought we should have told Saddam, "Let's let bygones be bygones and cooperate. You don't like the Islamic radicals and neither do we. Maybe we can do business again." He was a really bad guy, but the Islamic militants are worse.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=That Guy;287786]actually, it probably won't. after the invasion, the various middle-eastern states and factions didn't unify against america, they starting infighting amongst themselves. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to pull out and just hope everything works itself out, cause that's just not likely, but it's probably not entirely fire and brimstone for the world either way.[/quote]

While I realize they did not unify against the US.
It is generally, if not universally accepted that the countries in question, harbor, if not support those groups that have, and are targeting the US, and it's allies. These groups make no attempt to disguise their intentions as a whole.
From that standpoint, it benefits us to maintain a presence in the region, and thus a force in an outcome, that we can............"live" with. If we adopt a wait and see, non-interference policy, we may well be inviting a host of 9-11 style incidents

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

I have the key to peace in the Middle East. The key gentlemen is so simple, yet so beautiful. The key will bring the Jews, Muslims and Christians all together as one. The key will certainly make all of radical Islam realize that, at least some of what they have been taught, is wrong. Yes gentlemen, the key to peace in our lifetime is.......BACON. If we could just get the radical Islamists and Jews to try a wonderful few pieces of thick cut bacon, then they would realize that we all do have something in common. BACON=PEACE. Think about it.

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Bacon..................hmmm. Is there anything it cannot fix???????

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan;287803]I have the key to peace in the Middle East. The key gentlemen is so simple, yet so beautiful. The key will bring the Jews, Muslims and Christians all together as one. The key will certainly make all of radical Islam realize that, at least some of what they have been taught, is wrong. Yes gentlemen, the key to peace in our lifetime is.......BACON. If we could just get the radical Islamists and Jews to try a wonderful few pieces of thick cut bacon, then they would realize that we all do have something in common. BACON=PEACE. Think about it.[/QUOTE]But isn't the fact that neither Jews nor Muslims actually eat bacon mean that they have at least something in common?

If you had said pie, I think we'd all be in agreement.

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[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;287788]I know it's really cynical, but after 9/11 when the Iraq crisis was heating up, I thought we should have told Saddam, "Let's let bygones be bygones and cooperate. You don't like the Islamic radicals and neither do we. Maybe we can do business again." He was a really bad guy, but the Islamic militants are worse.[/quote]

That would be nice in a perfect world, but can you imagine the diplomatic crises that would ensue from nations like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia?

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Plus, I got the feeling that Bush wasn't the biggest Saddam fan out there.

Although, I do understand what you are saying SGG. It seems like most Iraqis, even those who were borderline fanatical, were so afraid of Saddam's secret police that they would have never dared to meet up to plan out bombing campaigns or kidnappings.

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So I think it would be safe to say that we have emboldened the insurgence mainly because we don't employ tactics used by dictators like him (at least out in the open).

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I've read alot of these post but not all and have seen some good stuff and some stuff that just not true. They did find links between Sadam and Al Queda (spelling) which is fact and I'm not talking about 9/11 just some links between them. Yes they did not agree with each other but did have a common hate for us. This War has not gone as bad as is reported by our media because it only focus is on what has gone wrong. One American life is too many but we have cities were more poeple have died from guns than we have lost in Iraq. Mistakes have been made but that happens in all wars and it tough because it is human lives we are dealing with. We cannot have a time table for withdraw (or not one that is public) that would tell the insurgancy just to sit back and wait until we leave. I'm not sure how we are going to exit but we have to get the Iraq people ready so we can get the heck out. Most od Iraq is living in peace and are happy that we are there but we never see that in our daily news its only the violance. That is a shame that our own news seems to ignor what the troops have accomplished and only focus on whats wrong and the few bad apples we have serving us over there. Lets just hope they are coming home ASAP and may god keep them safe.

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[quote=Hog1;287793]While I realize they did not unify against the US.
It is generally, if not universally accepted that the countries in question, harbor, if not support those groups that have, and are targeting the US, and it's allies. These groups make no attempt to disguise their intentions as a whole.
From that standpoint, it benefits us to maintain a presence in the region, and thus a force in an outcome, that we can............"live" with. If we adopt a wait and see, non-interference policy, we may well be inviting a host of 9-11 style incidents[/quote]

i don't disagree with that. right now we have much more military freedom in afghanistan and iraq and more leverage on pakistan to deal with such groups than we did before.

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not to argue , but... how do you know any of this? have you been there? im not sure why some people think that all media is 100% against president bush. now, if you told some of them have an agenda because they are tired of being lied to, and everything being hush hush, i would agree. there has to be a timetable( i agree, not public) because if you cant see the finish line, you never really started
this is a response to firstdowns post

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

well, in this area there's lot of military families, mine being one, and you hear from first and second hand sources (military that have been there) that it's not as bad as the media says, and the iraqi blogs (by iraqis living in iraq) seem to share the same comments.

not that most of iraq is peaceful, just that it's not as bad as reported.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

I don't think Americans can take the morale high ground about not getting kicks watching people die. What country televises high speed car chases which generally end in death or at least lots of destruction, who gets people gathered around a chair to watch someone have thousands of volts sent through their body? Americans and Christians (if we want to make this a religious thing) have long histories of watching death and torture for fun, closure, whatever.

As far as the kids spitting and such on bodies. Granted, Saddam killed a lot of people, but we are seen as the aggressor, and I can understand it. These kids, many growing up seeing much of the violence that we've seemingly brought to the nation that wasn't in every day view before. They see death every day, their idea of a good day is not having to bury a family member who dies from useless violence, a random car bomb aimed at US soldiers. While I'm not standing up for Saddam, he was an awful human being. From what I understand, his killings weren't exactly random. Don't piss Saddam off, stay alive. I'm not sure on that, just how it was explained to me and from the bit of reading I've done on it.

As far as papers not reporting positive news. They do. But saying everything is fine and well isn't a headline. Would you buy a paper that said "EVERYTHING'S OKAY!" Also, negative events come in one big splash. BOOM, something bad happened. Everything being okay is a gradual process. It's not that papers get in their meetings and say "Okay, we need to find a way to make this look bad!"

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=Daseal;287910]I don't think Americans can take the morale high ground about not getting kicks watching people die. What country televises high speed car chases which generally end in death or at least lots of destruction, who gets people gathered around a chair to watch someone have thousands of volts sent through their body? Americans and Christians (if we want to make this a religious thing) have long histories of watching death and torture for fun, closure, whatever.

As far as the kids spitting and such on bodies. Granted, Saddam killed a lot of people, but we are seen as the aggressor, and I can understand it. These kids, many growing up seeing much of the violence that we've seemingly brought to the nation that wasn't in every day view before. They see death every day, their idea of a good day is not having to bury a family member who dies from useless violence, a random car bomb aimed at US soldiers. While I'm not standing up for Saddam, he was an awful human being. From what I understand, his killings weren't exactly random. Don't piss Saddam off, stay alive. I'm not sure on that, just how it was explained to me and from the bit of reading I've done on it.

As far as papers not reporting positive news. They do. But saying everything is fine and well isn't a headline. Would you buy a paper that said "EVERYTHING'S OKAY!" Also, negative events come in one big splash. BOOM, something bad happened. Everything being okay is a gradual process. It's not that papers get in their meetings and say "Okay, we need to find a way to make this look bad!"[/quote]
Find me a couple positive main stream media reports on the war. I mean stuff the average American will see or hear. CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, and I bet you end up using FOX news as the only one giving anything positive. I don't think they get in the room and only look for bad but there is plenty of good that they must ignor. Your stuff about the kids spitting that going way back when the war started. How come they don't show the troops in a positive light that goes on in over 90% of the country. We only get what happens in a very small area of Iraq.Yes, the media looks for stuff to bash the president for and it has shown itsself again in the firing of those 9 judges which they are making such a big deal about. Clinton fired 94 judges in one day and had travel gate which the News did not feel was important so why is this? Oh, and those 94 judges are allot more than the 9 that Bush Admin. fired and they do not even have to have a reason to let them go.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[QUOTE=Daseal;287910]I don't think Americans can take the morale high ground about not getting kicks watching people die. What country televises high speed car chases which generally end in death or at least lots of destruction, who gets people gathered around a chair to watch someone have thousands of volts sent through their body? Americans and Christians (if we want to make this a religious thing) have long histories of watching death and torture for fun, closure, whatever.[/QUOTE]

I didn't mean to imply that we Americans, Christians, etc. do not find fascination with violence, car accidents, etc. But there's a big difference between the kind of violence we watch (e.g., Jerry Bruckheimer films or Cops) and the kind of violence large segments of the Iraqi populace indulge in (e.g., an innocent journalist's head is slowly sawed off with a knife). It's a matter of [I]degree[/I]; watching "The Terminator" is different from watching what amounts to a snuff film from Baghdad.

*I obviously am not saying that all Iraqis, Muslims, Middle Easterners, etc. indulge in such sadistic stuff. I am positive that the majority of Iraqis, Muslims, etc. do not agree with such violence, want to live in peace, and raise nice families just like you and I.

As for the news reporting, I don't understand how you say that news agencies do report positive stories about Iraq and then turn around and say that positive stories don't sell papers and that positive stories are not as easy to report as bad ones since progress occurs over time.

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[quote]As for the news reporting, I don't understand how you say that news agencies do report positive stories about Iraq and then turn around and say that positive stories don't sell papers and that positive stories are not as easy to report as bad ones since progress occurs over time.[/quote]

Sorry, I was a bit out of it when I posted. What I was trying to convey is that they are reported, they just aren't front page reports. Firstdown, a majority of Americans don't read and watch the news for what, 30 minutes a day? There's not really enough time. If you really want me to dig through The Washington Post, NY Times, etc, etc I will. They aren't front page stories, but they are there.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=Daseal;287969]Sorry, I was a bit out of it when I posted. What I was trying to convey is that they are reported, they just aren't front page reports. Firstdown, a majority of Americans don't read and watch the news for what, 30 minutes a day? There's not really enough time. If you really want me to dig through The Washington Post, NY Times, etc, etc I will. They aren't front page stories, but they are there.[/quote]You will have a hard time finding one I searched and had no luck.

Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;287924]I didn't mean to imply that we Americans, Christians, etc. do not find fascination with violence, car accidents, etc. But there's a big difference between the kind of violence we watch (e.g., Jerry Bruckheimer films or Cops) and the kind of violence large segments of the Iraqi populace indulge in (e.g., an innocent journalist's head is slowly sawed off with a knife). It's a matter of [I]degree[/I]; watching "The Terminator" is different from watching what amounts to a snuff film from Baghdad.

*I obviously am not saying that all Iraqis, Muslims, Middle Easterners, etc. indulge in such sadistic stuff. I am positive that the majority of Iraqis, Muslims, etc. do not agree with such violence, want to live in peace, and raise nice families just like you and I.

As for the news reporting, I don't understand how you say that news agencies do report positive stories about Iraq and then turn around and say that positive stories don't sell papers and that positive stories are not as easy to report as bad ones since progress occurs over time.[/quote]
I don't think that a large populace of Iraqis indulge in watching this kind of violence and would think that its a smaller number as in the ones doing the violence. A friend of mine who was over there a year or so back said that when they are attacked and you see these people jumping up and down mostly happens when the news shows up in most cases. He told me of a bombing and about these 8 or 9 Iraq guys in their 20's were helping them and when the news showed up they stoped and started doing that stuff. They still fear for their lives for two reasons. One he said is that they still have the fear of the Sadam type and people coming to kill them and their famile. He said this is a fear that they have lived with all their life and have not yet learned how to live without it. The other is a real fear of armed gangs coming to kill them for helping the Iraq goverment and the Americans. He said this is a real fear but is not as common as one would think from the news reports we get which he said was way over blown.