Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

He's a fan favorite, so I know I'm walking on eggshells when I fail to put him the upper echelon they way others do.

There was a slump he went through part of last year when he just wasn't a factor, but it was only his third year in the league with quarterback issues to deal with, so I'll allow for that.

I just need to see more of an impact before I group him with Gates, Gonzales, Witten, Crumpler, or Clark.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

Guess it depends on what we're calling "top tier". I'd easily place Cooley in the top 10 of the best TEs. I would listen to arguments that place him in the 5-7 range. That to me would be top tier.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[quote=Beemnseven;290647]I just need to see more of an impact before I group him with Gates, Gonzales, Witten, Crumpler, or Clark.[/quote]

Do you mean Dallas Clark?

C'mon the guy has never topped 40 catches or 5 TDs in one season.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;290319]But Vinny isn't responsible for trading away picks. So if you don't like that strategy, your beef isn't with Vinny.

I look at our players on offense and I think he did a pretty good job of assembling talent. But, if you don't think the guys I list below are any good, please feel free to differ.

Jason Campbell - It's early, but he looks very promising
Clinton Portis - Need I say more
Ladell Betts - Excellent pick in the middle of the 2nd round
Rock Cartwright - He's not a starter, but he's excellent value for a 7th rounder.
Chris Cooley - Excellent pick, especially in the 3rd round
Santana Moss - Everyone thought we got screwed on the Coles trade, maybe not?
ARE - I simply love the guy, even if he's not posting 1,000 yard seasons
The entire O-line - Love em all.

I think we've got the talent on offense to be incredibly explosive if JC picks up his game and develops nicely.[/quote]

- JC does look like he's going to do well but we did give up a good deal to get him
- CP was a great fit for our offense but we are wasting his talent by not surrounding him with a passing game (hopefully next year will be better) PLUS we did give up a pro-bowler and the best corner in the NFL in Champ
- Betts is great if we trade him but I don't think he will ever be able to carry the entire load under our offense...don't forget the fumbling issues
- Cartwright was probably the only under the radar guy that was picked up
- Cooley is great but as someone pointed out we gave up a LOT for him and they might let him leave to FA next year as well
- Santana Moss...let's not forget that our FO screwed up for a stretch there when we got Coles and he was a bust (this was the period when we were known as the jetskins and were a laughingstock)
- ARE is a great personality and player but has yet to prove that he was worth the money

ALSO notice that in the entire list above not ONE defensive player was mentioned. As everyone knows the cliche is that defense wins championships. Imagine if we had a GM that could scout defensive talent like Ozzie. Taylor was the only great defensive pick that the Cerrato era could be credited for. The jury is still out on Cartwright and Rogers has one season to prove his worth, IMO.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;290646]I think most people like to blame Vinny instead of Gibbs because that is sac religious. I think Gibbs needs quite a bit of blame that people dont want to give.[/QUOTE]

For whatever reason, Ceratto is much more protected it seems, and perhaps in a bit of denial. On more than one occasion, both Snyder and Gibbs have said "Hey I messed up and I admit it" But has anyone ever heard anything like that from VC?

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[quote=SmootSmack;290651]For whatever reason, Ceratto is much more protected it seems, and perhaps in a bit of denial. On more than one occasion, both Snyder and Gibbs have said "Hey I messed up and I admit it" But has anyone ever heard anything like that from VC?[/quote]

Yeah that is true, never thought about that.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

Gibbs is always the first one to stick his neck out and say blame me.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

I think Vinny has admitted to making mistakes, especially from the infamous 2000 spending spree.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

whoops, i failed to read the part that u said u were breaking down offensive players only, haha. Well at any rate, i still don't think that the FO has really focused on building the defense through the draft, which doesn't make sense to me.

U can't get rid of Gibbs (cuz its sacrilege), u can't get rid of Snyder...that leaves only Vinny C and other members of the FO to take the blame. As unfair as it is on certain levels, this is a business and sometimes for the sake of public appearance someone who doesn't deserve ALL the blame has to absorb it...So is he the anti-christ: No. But was he part of the solution in his time here: No.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[quote=Mattyk72;290654]Gibbs is always the first one to stick his neck out and say blame me.[/quote]

yeah and after a while his apologies have no more value to me.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[quote=hooskins;290659]yeah and after a while his apologies have no more value to me.[/quote]

What else should he say?

Would you be happier if he stopped taking responsibility?

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

its funny how this has turned into one of our players this oranization has drafted. Not set up by the previous regime. We have basically Betts (backup) cooley, Taylor, Campbell, Rogers(jury still out!) Rocky(remains to be seen) as the players that contrbute out of 49 rounds of drafting. thats 49 rounds!! take away the draft that Casserly set up, which was a no brainer w/ LaVar and Samuels and you have less impact players that are on the roster contributing. We have so many of these threads going on and its always the same thing. FO makes too many mistakes trying to win now. that mentality has to go for a year or two to build up a quality depth chart of young players. until this is done we will lead the league in all the wrong catagories(payroll, dead cap, LOSSES) Most notibly, players complaining about all the crap that goes on inside Redskin park. They do the right thing and keep it close to the vest while here, but when they leave, the flood gates open. Every player that has left this team says the same thing. It can not be dismissed as a player just dogging the team and its meaningless. There begins to be truth behind it when multiple players all say the same thing.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[quote=Beemnseven;290647]He's a fan favorite, so I know I'm walking on eggshells when I fail to put him the upper echelon they way others do.

There was a slump he went through part of last year when he just wasn't a factor, but it was only his third year in the league with quarterback issues to deal with, so I'll allow for that.

I just need to see more of an impact before I group him with Gates, Gonzales, Witten, Crumpler, or Clark.[/quote]

Honestly, the only people I can place above him are Gonzales, Gates and Crumpler. He outperforms Clark and Witten constantly.

I won't say he's better than Gonzales, but I WILL say that Gonzo is the ONLY receiving option in KC which is why he catches so many balls. I'm surprised Shockey isn't in there as well. I STILL think Cooley is better than him. I would also say it's almost a tie between Gates and Cooley.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;290649]Do you mean Dallas Clark?

C'mon the guy has never topped 40 catches or 5 TDs in one season.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but he's competing with Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne for catches. I still think he's a better athlete, and is a key ingredient for that offense regardless of his numbers.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[quote=Mattyk72;290662]What else should he say?

Would you be happier if he stopped taking responsibility?[/quote]

I dont know but after a while I don't know if he is actually sorry and accepting blame, or just saying he is to "look good".

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[quote=hooskins;290669]I dont know but after a while I don't know if he is actually sorry and accepting blame, or just saying he is to "look good".[/quote]

If you know anything about the man you wouldn't be questioning that at all.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[quote=Beemnseven;290668]Yeah, but he's competing with Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne for catches. I still think he's a better athlete, and is a key ingredient for that offense regardless of his numbers.[/quote]

Regardless of who's the better athlete I'm talking about production... and Cooley has easily outproduced Clark. Clark's season high in catches is 37, Cooley did that as a rookie. Even Marcus Pollard was more productive than Clark in his time with the Colts.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;290669]I dont know but after a while I don't know if he is actually sorry and accepting blame, or just saying he is to "look good".[/QUOTE]

How good can you look when your team sucks and you're the one taking the blame? Look, I'm as disappointed as anyone else with Gibbs this time around, but he truly is an honest man who genuinely says what he means. This past season probably hurt him to his very core.

The man doesn't pass anything off to anyone else, and he doesn't say or do anything to make himself "look good."

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[quote=Beemnseven;290684]How good can you look when your team sucks and you're the one taking the blame? Look, I'm as disappointed as anyone else with Gibbs this time around, but he truly is an honest man who genuinely says what he means. This past season probably hurt him to his very core.

The man doesn't pass anything off to anyone else, and he doesn't say or do anything to make himself "look good."[/quote]

Well said, for once we agree. :)

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;290677]Regardless of who's the better athlete I'm talking about production... and Cooley has easily outproduced Clark. Clark's season high in catches is 37, Cooley did that as a rookie. Even Marcus Pollard was more productive than Clark in his time with the Colts.[/QUOTE]

I think part of what makes for a "top tier" tight end isn't necessarily measured in numbers the way it is for wideouts. They're a more subtle aspect of what makes up a great offense. The threat they pose as an outlet receiver, the blocking they're required to do, it's difficult to pinpoint ...

I just don't think Cooley's there yet. He could be close, though.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;290687]Well said, for once we agree. :)[/QUOTE]


I just knew we'd find common ground somewhere. :D

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[QUOTE=#56fanatic;290665]Every player that has left this team says the same thing. It can not be dismissed as a player just dogging the team and its meaningless. There begins to be truth behind it when multiple players all say the same thing.[/QUOTE]

Every player? I guess it wasn't a big enough problem for guys like Stoutmire and Smoot who've come back. And I never heard Bowen, Royal, or Dockery say bad things. And Ramsey took it like a man and said he's not blaming anyone, just trying to move on. And LaVar, Darnerien, and Gardner can all just shut up because no team wants any of them anyway.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[quote=Beemnseven;290693]I think part of what makes for a "top tier" tight end isn't necessarily measured in numbers the way it is for wideouts. They're a more subtle aspect of what makes up a great offense. The threat they pose as an outlet receiver, the blocking they're required to do, it's difficult to pinpoint ...

I just don't think Cooley's there yet. He could be close, though.[/quote]

Where would you rank him?

Top 10? Top 15?

Personally I'd find it very hard to put him outside of the top 10.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;290704]Where would you rank him?

Top 10? Top 15?

Personally I'd find it very hard to put him outside of the top 10.[/QUOTE]

Well, he's certainly not in the bottom half of the league. He could be in the top ten, but on my personal, completely arbitrary scale, he's probably at the top of the "second tier".

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;290654]Gibbs is always the first one to stick his neck out and say blame me.[/QUOTE]

Kind of funny though, almost no one ever does?

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[quote=offiss;290721]Kind of funny though, almost no one ever does?[/quote]

Did you sleep through last season?

I think we had a pretty long and heated thread titled 'Gibbs must go' at some point last year.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;290722]Did you sleep through last season?

I think we had a pretty long and heated thread titled 'Gibbs must go' at some point last year.[/QUOTE]

Yea thats me Rumple stiltzSKIN.:)

Very few are willing to admit Gibbs is off the wall as far as running a team, he knows nothing of personel, including his own. As I said early on in Gibbs second tenure, he has been trying to pound a square peg threw a round hole to try and prove he can run an organization with total control, he is a fish out of water, Bobby Beathard made sure Gibbs was constantly stocked with some of the best talent in the NFL, Gibbs had the luxury of running the ball down any defense's throat any time he wanted to with the hogs that BB assembled. Well Gibbs no longer has the best line in football as he enjoyed for 10 years under BB, and now he is finding it much more dificult to coach without that advantage.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say he knows nothing about personnel. It's not like this roster is totally devoid of talent.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

If there's anything negative I can say about the current coaching staff, I think they place FAR too much emphasis on having players with experience.

- Williams is ALWAYS trying to find guys that have played in his system.
- Williams AND Gibbs are always wanting people who are VETS.
- Williams benches his rookies, no matter how they're drafting.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;290731]I think it's a bit of a stretch to say he knows nothing about personnel. It's not like this roster is totally devoid of talent.[/QUOTE]

Thats fair, but it could be a whole lot better for a lot less money that is for sure.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;290732]If there's anything negative I can say about the current coaching staff, I think they place FAR too much emphasis on having players with experience.

- Williams is ALWAYS trying to find guys that have played in his system.
- Williams AND Gibbs are always wanting people who are VETS.
- Williams benches his rookies, no matter how they're drafting.[/QUOTE]

Outstanding point MC, and your dead on with that statement, it's as if they don't want to spend the time preparing inexperienced players and short cut that process with vets who are not as talented but more knowledegable.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[QUOTE=Rajmahal33;290650]- JC does look like he's going to do well but we did give up a good deal to get him
- CP was a great fit for our offense but we are wasting his talent by not surrounding him with a passing game (hopefully next year will be better) PLUS we did give up a pro-bowler and the best corner in the NFL in Champ
- Betts is great if we trade him but I don't think he will ever be able to carry the entire load under our offense...don't forget the fumbling issues
- Cartwright was probably the only under the radar guy that was picked up
- Cooley is great but as someone pointed out we gave up a LOT for him and they might let him leave to FA next year as well
- Santana Moss...let's not forget that our FO screwed up for a stretch there when we got Coles and he was a bust (this was the period when we were known as the jetskins and were a laughingstock)
- ARE is a great personality and player but has yet to prove that he was worth the money.[/QUOTE]

Almost all of your complaints address how much we paid players or how much we traded to get them. NONE of those arguments weigh in favor of firing Vinny.

I think if people wrote down a list of Vinny's job duties, and wrote down another list of what their gripes with the team are, they would find that the two lists have relatively little in common.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;290751]Almost all of your complaints address how much we paid players or how much we traded to get them. NONE of those arguments weigh in favor of firing Vinny.

I think if people wrote down a list of Vinny's job duties, and wrote down another list of what their gripes with the team are, they would find that the two lists have relatively little in common.[/quote]

Well if the general manager and front office isn't in some way connected to how much we pay or trade away for players then who is? As i understand it Dan Snyder writes the checks, Gibbs/Coaching stafff determines who they want and ranks their needs, Cerrato/FO contacts player's agents, negotiates deals with them and makes decisions on whether a player or deal can go thru (basically doing the paperwork and crunching the numbers). Am I wrong (cuz I could be), I just always thought thats how it worked?

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_manager#Sports_teams]General manager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

It's a little silly but thats the only link i could find about the duties of a general manager (if u scroll down to the bottom about sports teams its somewhat relevant). Now these exact duties may or may not be under Vinny's jurisdiction but i could find nothing else. It seems as if he is the man responsible for such things

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

Vinny is not the general manager and does not make GM-type decisions, although Vinny does tend to be blamed for any decisions made by the Redskins front office that GMs are expected to make.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

I think the talent acquisition on the team has been suspect durring the VC period. I honestly think the Redskins would be in better position if [B]I[/B] was the dir ector of personel. A monkey could get the same success as Vinny has gotten. And although I do agree that it is Snyder and now Gibbs who tend to overpay, wouldn´t a good personel guy say, "don´t overpay such and such player, because of such and such reason", or really promote a more effective overall strategy. If Vinny doesn't know that our player acquisition system is flawed, then his judgement is flawed. If he does know and he doesn't step up to the plate and tell the Boss how to do it better, once again it seems to me that he is blameworthy.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

Vinny is Danny's hand on the team. I don't think Danny is going to loosen his grip this offseason.

I was hoping that JaLa's article was accurate when he was predicting that the FO was going to be out after the draft.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[QUOTE=TenandSix:Unacceptable;290780]I think the talent acquisition on the team has been suspect durring the VC period. I honestly think the Redskins would be in better position if [B]I[/B] was the dir ector of personel. A monkey could get the same success as Vinny has gotten. And although I do agree that it is Snyder and now Gibbs who tend to overpay, wouldn´t a good personel guy say, "don´t overpay such and such player, because of such and such reason", or really promote a more effective overall strategy. If Vinny doesn't know that our player acquisition system is flawed, then his judgement is flawed. If he does know and he doesn't step up to the plate and tell the Boss how to do it better, once again it seems to me that he is blameworthy.[/QUOTE]

And if the Boss disagrees? Is he supposed to take his marbles and go home?

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;290792]And if the Boss disagrees? Is he supposed to take his marbles and go home?[/quote]

And why would Vinny be so afraid of losing his job if he did have the sense and the cajones to speak up?

Because no one else would hire him, that's why. He doesn't bring much to the table and the rest of the league knows that.

And don't get me wrong, Snyder is very much responsible for keeping this parrot around. Gibbs is coming around because he knows how to adapt. Vinny is the NFL equivalent of an upper management corporate lackey in a company that ultimately sells a sub-par product due in large part to said lackeys incompetence.

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[QUOTE=TenandSix:Unacceptable;290780]I think the talent acquisition on the team has been suspect durring the VC period. I honestly think the Redskins would be in better position if [B]I[/B] was the dir ector of personel. A monkey could get the same success as Vinny has gotten. And although I do agree that it is Snyder and now Gibbs who tend to overpay, wouldn´t a good personel guy say, "don´t overpay such and such player, because of such and such reason", or really promote a more effective overall strategy. If Vinny doesn't know that our player acquisition system is flawed, then his judgement is flawed. If he does know and he doesn't step up to the plate and tell the Boss how to do it better, once again it seems to me that he is blameworthy.[/QUOTE]

So just to be clear, you think the talent is suspect or the means to acquire said talent?

Re: Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;290760]Vinny is not the general manager and does not make GM-type decisions, although Vinny does tend to be blamed for any decisions made by the Redskins front office that GMs are expected to make.[/QUOTE]

Here's a question Sheriff: What do [I]you[/I] think Vinny's responsibilities are?