Re: asante samuel
 

[quote=Beemnseven;294615]I'm saying that I just don't think there's much to this notion that there are corners who are so lacking in run support abilities that they can't make it in [I]this defense.[/I] They won't make it in ANY defense!!! Everybody has to know how to tackle. People who can't won't make it in football. It's my belief that when we all say, "oh, we don't need this cornerback, he can't tackle" -- that's fan-speak. If Gregg Williams' defense is so nuanced to the point that it can't work with prototypical corners, then there would be no cornerbacks on his roster -- there'd be nothing but strong safeties.

And just where is it written that Asante Samuel "can't make a tackle in the open field"? Do we have actual proof of this claim? Would Bill Belichick keep someone on his roster than can't make an open field tackle? Of course not.

That's why all this talk of cornerbacks like Asante Samuel not being suitable for this particular defense in the judgement of Warpathers is absolute nonsense.[/quote]

I completely disagree with everything you've said regarding this CB run support issue.

Yes, every player must know how to tackle to play pee wee football. That doesn't mean they're all good at it at the NFL level.

And run support isn't always tackling in the open field. Sometimes it's having the speed to come up on a sweep to your side of the field, and take away the sideline, forcing the RB to cut up the field towards the swarm of LBs that's racing towards him. You don't have to make the tackle, but you have to either slow the RB down, or you have to redirect him back to the heart of the defense. That takes speed, recognition to quickly diagnose the play as a run to your side, and aggressiveness to willingly attack the ballcarrier and defend the sideline.

GW's defense is predicated on flexibility. We want our safeties to cover so that he can feel free to blitz corners sometimes. We want our LBs capable of covering a Jeremy Shockey just as well as they can tackle a Brandon Jacobs. We want our defensive linemen, especially the backups, to be capable of shifting from DE to DT.

And we need our corners to be capable of coming up and delivering a blow to RBs so that we can feel free to blitz our LBs or safeties, and still be able to prevent an RB from taking a screen pass to the house.

If you want flexibility to move your players around on the field and attack from unexpected angles, then you have to have versatile players. When the LBs are on a blitz and attacking the QB, there better be someone there who can do the LB's job when he's not there. Sean Taylor can't be everywhere, as good as he is. If you want to be a blitzing team, you need CBs that can hit.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

Nope. Not buying it. Anyone who cannot tackle a ball carrier in the open field won't be in the NFL. I don't care how complex or nuanced a defense is.

If Asante Samuel is out of the question for this team because he's too expensive, fine. But if a guy who had 10 interceptions last year isn't being considered because he's not "right for our system", then that only further illustrates the buffoonery of this front office, and serves as more proof that Williams shouldn't be in the position of evaluating the talent that belongs on our roster.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

[quote=Beemnseven;294625]Nope. Not buying it. Anyone who cannot tackle a ball carrier in the open field won't be in the NFL. I don't care how complex or nuanced a defense is.[/quote]

LOL, ok

How would you explain Deion then?

Re: Asante Samuel
 

So you're saying that even for the right price, Gregg Williams would pass up on a cornerback who can smother a wideout, even if his game isn't centered on stopping the run -- Darrell Green for example?

To paraphrase you:

"LOL ok"

Re: Asante Samuel
 

If I recall - GW defense is based on pressure. His defense works better when he has corners that can cover one on one due to the blitzes both on run downs and passing downs. His defense is a version of the 46, which corners are asked to cover one on one a lot. I dont care if a corner can tackle or not, to me they shouldn't be making 10 tackles a game. RB's should not be cosistantly getting to that level like they were last year. the Safeties in this D are asked to be more flexible. Cover and run support. I am not buying the whole big , physical corner stuff. I will take a cover/shut down corner any day of the week.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

[quote=Beemnseven;294634]So you're saying that even for the right price, Gregg Williams would pass up on a cornerback who can smother a wideout, even if his game isn't centered on stopping the run -- Darrell Green for example?

To paraphrase you:

"LOL ok"[/quote]

I think you're misunderstanding here.

I never said a player like Samuel wouldn't fit here or wouldn't be considered at the right price, but the truth is there are players that are better fits for a cover 2 system like Williams runs.

That's why he favors bigger corners who can play the run and blitz, and safeties who are flexible enough to play the nickel and dime positions, and even corner in a pinch.

To completely disregard the fact that there are cover 2 corners and cover corners is ridiculous.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

I think there is a legitimate case for one corner being preferred over another because of a more desireable skill set. But to suggest that we pass on a guy that snagged 10 ints. simply because he doesn't fit makes me scratch my head a little. I think at the end of the day, it's about the most rudimentary defensive football skill - tackling.

Somewhere down the line, if Gregg Williams' defense is so dependent on corners that provide "run support" and we don't have any, and there aren't any at a reasonable price on the market, then it necessitates that he change what he's doing.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

To be clear I wouldn't pass on Samuel because of his size or tackling ability, I would pass on him because of the contract he's going to command.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

[quote=Mattyk72;294640]To be clear I wouldn't pass on Samuel because of his size or tackling ability, I would pass on him because of the contract he's going to command.[/quote]


Agreed.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

Asante Samuel- 5-10, 185
Fred Smoot- 5-11, 178

Is size really the issue here? It's money.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

While we are throwing out outrageous scenarios that aren't going to happen...how about bringing back Champ? We have an open line of communication with the broncos. Snyder can throw money at him and doom the franchise for years to come like he always does...maybe we can even trade Ladell Betts to them, so that we could have Portis AND champ (ya know having our cake and eating it too). It's fun to dream.

Look, why do we need to make some blockbuster trade in order for our offseason to be successful? First it was clements, then it was briggs, now Samuels? How about just stickin with the modest moves that we have made thus far and possibly trying to acquire some more day 1 picks by trading out of the #6. I believe that less is more for the skins, especially when it comes to fewer offseason moves and keeping continuity in the roster.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

w/the macklin signing, this is highly unlikely

Re: Asante Samuel
 

Pro Football Talk is now reporting that Dan Snyder is expected to place a call to New England over the weekend to inquire about Samuels. This is a F!@#ing joke. I think the Skins are trying desperately trying to get rid of the 6th pick. Come Draft day we won't have that pick. Maybe somewhere in the 1st round we'll have a pick. Pats have 2 1st rounders, so they might take the bait here. Snyder should consult with his coaches before he acts on his own. Well here is what was posted:
'SKINS TO MAKE A PLAY FOR SAMUEL?

Dan Snyder of the Washington Redskins can't help himself. Every offseason, he is compelled to make a big splash, in some way.

He didn't do it in free agency this year, for a change. So with a top-ten pick burning a hole in his draft board and Bears linebacker Lance Briggs (whom the 'Skins don't really need) not available via a flip-flip of first round picks, Snyder apparently will sniff around Pats cornerback Asante Samuel (whom the 'Skins don't really need).

Ryan O'Halloran of the Washington Times reports that the Redskins are expected to call the Patriots regarding Samuel, a free agent who has been slapped with the franchise tag.

The Redskins currently have cornerbacks Shawn Springs, Carlos Rogers, Fred Smoot, and David Macklin under contract. Even if they trade or cut Springs, they don't need Samuel.

But Snyder can't help himself. He collects big-name players like Florio Jr. hoards McFarlane NFL figures, without regard to the manner in which his collection will interact on the field or in the locker room.

In hindsight, then, the decision of Samuel to recently go public with his dissatisfaction might have been a stroke of genius. With the Bears telling the Redskins that a flip-flop of first-round picks won't happen, the 'Skins need to find someone else to take the sixth overall pick off of their hands. And Samuel's comments apparently have caught Snyder's ear.

So for the No. 28 pick and Samuel, the Pats possibly could have the No. 6 overall pick. Heck, maybe they can also get the 'Skins to throw in Springs.

The question, then, is whether the Pats even want the No. 6 pick. If they do, the next question is whether the Patriots would try to package the No. 6 selection with the No. 24 pick (which they got from the Seahawks for Deion Branch) in an effort to move up to get once-in-a-generation receiver Calvin Johnson.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

Let the freakout begin.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

the redskins want every high priced free agent every year. come on, did they forget to let you in on the joke? what better bargaining tool to use for leverage then Dan Snyder? they don't really want Samuel, but its good reading

Re: Asante Samuel
 

[QUOTE=JankySpanky80;295123]Pro Football Talk is now reporting that Dan Snyder is expected to place a call to New England over the weekend to inquire about Samuels. This is a F!@#ing joke. I think the Skins are trying desperately trying to get rid of the 6th pick. Come Draft day we won't have that pick. Maybe somewhere in the 1st round we'll have a pick. Pats have 2 1st rounders, so they might take the bait here. Snyder should consult with his coaches before he acts on his own. Well here is what was posted:
'SKINS TO MAKE A PLAY FOR SAMUEL?

Dan Snyder of the Washington Redskins can't help himself. Every offseason, he is compelled to make a big splash, in some way.

He didn't do it in free agency this year, for a change. So with a top-ten pick burning a hole in his draft board and Bears linebacker Lance Briggs (whom the 'Skins don't really need) not available via a flip-flip of first round picks, Snyder apparently will sniff around Pats cornerback Asante Samuel (whom the 'Skins don't really need).

Ryan O'Halloran of the Washington Times reports that the Redskins are expected to call the Patriots regarding Samuel, a free agent who has been slapped with the franchise tag.

The Redskins currently have cornerbacks Shawn Springs, Carlos Rogers, Fred Smoot, and David Macklin under contract. Even if they trade or cut Springs, they don't need Samuel.

But Snyder can't help himself. He collects big-name players like Florio Jr. hoards McFarlane NFL figures, without regard to the manner in which his collection will interact on the field or in the locker room.

In hindsight, then, the decision of Samuel to recently go public with his dissatisfaction might have been a stroke of genius. With the Bears telling the Redskins that a flip-flop of first-round picks won't happen, the 'Skins need to find someone else to take the sixth overall pick off of their hands. And Samuel's comments apparently have caught Snyder's ear.

So for the No. 28 pick and Samuel, the Pats possibly could have the No. 6 overall pick. Heck, maybe they can also get the 'Skins to throw in Springs.

The question, then, is whether the Pats even want the No. 6 pick. If they do, the next question is whether the Patriots would try to package the No. 6 selection with the No. 24 pick (which they got from the Seahawks for Deion Branch) in an effort to move up to get once-in-a-generation receiver Calvin Johnson.[/QUOTE]



The WashingtonTimes ran a simular article in today's paper reporting a possible interest in Samuel. The Pats have tagged Samuel so I can't imagine there could be a maximum interest due to the compensation he would command, coupled with a contract that would be hefty when added to an already expensive and crowded CB position.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

[quote=freddyg12;294792]w/the macklin signing, this is highly unlikely[/quote]


and the washington times also has a story about it but i cant link the stupid thing for some reason

Re: Asante Samuel
 

The whole notion that a player can be great for one team and come in and play the same position for another team and be significantly better or worse is totally ridiculous.

Here's the real question: Is Asante Samuel overrated as a Corner because he isn't one to come up and hit someone in run support?

This is a pretty universal question. Is CB run support massively undervalued? I tend to think that yes, CB run support is undervalued. Consequently, Samuel's level of production may very well be a bit lower than his rep would lead you to believe it is.

Whether or not he's good for our system is an irrelivant question. Give me an example of a system that wouldn't benefit from a CB who is good at run support.

I think NFL scouts certainly undervalue run support as a whole. This doesn't mean that Asante Samuel wouldn't be a good fit here. In fact, he's just what we are looking for. He's just potentially a bit overrated due to a probable weakness in his game that conventional scouting turns a blind eye to.

Samuel would be better for our team than Briggs would for sure.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

Why is Snyder making phone calls to NE and Chi anyway? Isn't that what a GM is suppose to do? Does Robert Kraft go around making calls about other teams players? Snyder is such a tool. I bet he has the short man's complex. It's like he tries too hard to be cool. I bet he gets off on reading about his name in the paper but yet he won't talk to the media. God I wish he would sell the team! Dude hasn't got a clue how to build a winner. And how long has he owned the team? You would think someone as smart as him would figure it out by now.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

Where does it say Snyder is going to call?

Re: Asante Samuel
 

I believe this move is HIGHLY unlikely.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

To completely disregard the fact that there are cover 2 corners and cover corners is ridiculous.[/quote]


if you dont understand that then you dont know football overly well.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

The Boston Herald is now reporting a RUMOR of #6 to NE for Samuels/#28.


I'm against the trade, but not as much as I was against the Briggs trade, becuase this actually takes care of somthing that is somewhat of a need depending on how you look at it. However, the contract he will bring with him is just too much imo, especially when we need to re-sign Cooley.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

[QUOTE=Gmanc711;295331]The Boston Herald is now reporting a RUMOR of #6 to NE for Samuels/#28.


I'm against the trade, but not as much as I was against the Briggs trade, becuase this actually takes care of somthing that is somewhat of a need depending on how you look at it. However, the contract he will bring with him is just too much imo, especially when we need to re-sign Cooley.[/QUOTE]

Just to be clear, the Boston Herald is just repeating the Washington Times report, which says there is a possibility the Redskins might contact the Patriots re: Samuel and one possible trade scenario-speculated by the press-is the #6 for Samuel and the #28

Re: Asante Samuel
 

I don't want this guy. He's good but corner isn't a need right now. I'd rather have Briggs, honestly if we make a trade for a player. Keeping the pick and moving down would be best for us though.

How about the Pats 2 frist round picks for our 6th. That sounds better to me.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

I'd love to get the Pats two first rounders for the #6. Wonder if we could get Moss and Harrell there?

Re: Asante Samuel
 

The pats seem pretty interested in Calvin Johnson so I wouldn't be surprised is the trade went thru. Also taking into account that Snyder will overpay even at the cost of putting the team in salary cap hell, the 6 for 28+Samuels trade does have a possibility of working. What does GW think of Samuels? Maybe he has been on his radar for some time.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

Heres the most recent scouting report on Asante

Asante Samuel | CB[URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=6456"][COLOR=#000000]Complete player profile[/COLOR][/URL]
[IMG]http://espn.starwave.com/i/nfl/profiles/players/statsid/s6456.jpg[/IMG][B]Full Name: [/B]Asante Samuel
[B]Born: [/B]January 6, 1981 Fort Lauderdale, FL

[B]Height[/B]: 5-10
[B]Weight[/B]: 185 lbs.
[B]Age[/B]: 26
[B]Pos[/B]: CB
[B]Experience[/B]: 4 years
[B]College[/B]: UCF
[B]Drafted[/B]: Year:2003 Round:4 Pick:23, Patriots
[LEFT]
Insider Analysis [IMG]http://espn.go.com/i/in.gif[/IMG]
Grade 79
[I]Expert's Take[/I]
Samuel was designated the Patriots' franchise player coming off the best season of his four year career. He was statistically the toughest defensive back in the league to throw against, with 65 tackles, 10 interceptions and 24 deflections. Samuel has adequate size with very good athletic ability and excellent instincts. He has good speed but appears to be more quick than fast. He plays with great anticipation and reaction, reads quickly and jumps patterns as receivers come out of their breaks. He has very good foot agility and quickness, and he can plant and close with excellent burst. He plays with good balance and body position and rarely gets out-maneuvered. Samuel has shown very good ball skills and plays with confidence when the ball is in the air. He is competitive and a solid tackler but would not be considered explosive in run support. He uses his hands well to re-route receivers and keeps leverage while patterns develop. Samuel competes well with all receivers but does not have great height to shut down the bigger athletes on the outside. He was exceptional at the right corner position and a solid contributor on special teams for the Patriots in 2006.[/LEFT]

Re: Asante Samuel
 

This came from the Boston Herald

[FONT=Arial] [B]Landry on list?[/B]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial][/FONT] The rumored trade with the Redskins, which would likely ship the 28th pick and Samuel to the ‘Skins for the sixth overall pick, might be out of character for the Patriots.
But it also could bring an impact player who’d be ready to start the opener on Sept. 9. His name is LaRon Landry.
With [URL="http://news.bostonherald.com/search/?searchSite=true&keyword=Rodney+Harrison&mode=all"][B][COLOR=#0000ff]Rodney Harrison[/COLOR][/B][/URL][COLOR=#888888] [[URL="http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=bostonherald&page=nfl/teams/077/playeraaa.aspx?id=32,team=077"][COLOR=#0000ff]stats[/COLOR][/URL]][/COLOR]’s injury troubles over the past two years, the Pats have gone through long stretches without a premier safety for the first time since Lawyer Milloy joined the team in 1996. Landry could be the next one, a 6-foot-1, 213-pounder who ran a 4.35 at the combine and played his first two years at LSU under Belichick confidant Nick Saban.
Getting the sixth pick would move the Patriots ahead of the Falcons, who are eyeing Landry with their No. 8 pick. Of course, there’s a lot of projecting there, but it’s worth a thought. . . .
According to KFFL.com, the Patriots conducted an interview with Baylor punter Daniel Sepulveda over the weekend, which seems a bit peculiar. The team just paid out a $100,000 roster bonus to Josh Miller, and has a couple days left to decide whether or not to match Denver’s offer sheet for Todd Sauerbrun. [COLOR=#666666] [[URL="http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=193534&format=&page=3"][COLOR=#996633]continue[/COLOR][/URL]][/COLOR]

Re: Asante Samuel
 

I think the Pats really want Landry but this would be a Draft Day trade bc they wouldn't want the pick if Landry and CJ are gone. Wouldn't it be better for all involved if it were a 3 team trade with Detroit? Skins give up Springs and #6 and get Samuels, #28 and Detroit 3rd round. Detroit gets #6, #24 and Springs. NE gets #2 overall pick taking Calvin Johnson. Win all around, yes?

Re: Asante Samuel
 

[quote=rypper11;295361]I think the Pats really want Landry but this would be a Draft Day trade bc they wouldn't want the pick if Landry and CJ are gone. Wouldn't it be better for all involved if it were a 3 team trade with Detroit? Skins give up Springs and #6 and get Samuels, #28 and Detroit 3rd round. Detroit gets #6, #24 and Springs. NE gets #2 overall pick taking Calvin Johnson. Win all around, yes?[/quote]

That would be a great trade.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

[quote=rypper11;295361]I think the Pats really want Landry but this would be a Draft Day trade bc they wouldn't want the pick if Landry and CJ are gone. Wouldn't it be better for all involved if it were a 3 team trade with Detroit? Skins give up Springs and #6 and get Samuels, #28 and Detroit 3rd round. Detroit gets #6, #24 and Springs. NE gets #2 overall pick taking Calvin Johnson. Win all around, yes?[/quote]

But they drafted Chad Jackson early second round last year, Reche Caldwell played great for them down the stretch, and they just gave all that money to Wes Welker and Donte Stallworth. Then they'd have to give a huge rookie contract to CJ. I don't see it.

And as far as LaRon Landry goes- he's a great safety prospect, but the Pats could, ahem, stand pat (sorry) and probably get Reggie Nelson at 24 and a LB like Posluzny at 28. They need to bolster their LBs and safties more than their WRs.

Re: Asante Samuel
 

it seems like young players dont want the tag after they get done with their 3-4 year rookie contracts (briggs now samuel), they want a long term deal with guaranteed money which makes sense . . . i dont particularly like samuels but wouldnt hate it if he signed for something close to bly type money but please no where near clements neighborhood . . i think he wants to much money to pull the trigger on this one

Re: Asante Samuel
 

Yeah, somebody pay me millions of dollars so that I can play football. I need to be able to by my multimillion dollar home, 20 cars, new state of the art technology, and a new girlfriend every night for the next few years, because I gotta look out for my family. Oh dont forget to throw in that free trip to Hawaii every year.

Somebody pass me some beer nuts because I think Im gonna be sick.....hickup!

Re: Asante Samuel
 

He wants to much money and we already have alot of depth at the position. I also think that we can get an even better trade on draft day if our FO can handle waiting 3 more weeks